She's a Man, Baby...

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socal
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She's a Man, Baby...

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Sex determination testing?
August 20, 2009
Gender Test After a Gold-Medal Finish

By CHRISTOPHER CLAREY
BERLIN — On the blue track at the Olympic Stadium, all three medalists celebrated after the women’s 800 meters at the world track and field championships. But when it came time for the postrace news conference, the gold medalist, Caster Semenya, was nowhere to be seen. She had been replaced on the rostrum by Pierre Weiss, the general secretary of the International Association of Athletics Federations, the sport’s governing body.

Earlier in the day, I.A.A.F. officials had confirmed that Semenya, a muscular 18-year-old from South Africa competing in her first senior championship, was undergoing sex-determination testing to confirm her eligibility to race as a woman.

According to Weiss, track and field officials had not had time to resolve the issue before this meet because Semenya had emerged at the world-class level only in the past month. Weiss said that I.A.A.F. officials and South African track and field officials had agreed that it would be too much to ask of an inexperienced teenager to field questions about the gender issue from the news media.

But Weiss stressed that the testing had been initiated because of “ambiguity, not because we believe she is cheating.”

It was an unprecedented scene at a major sports event, one that eclipsed the night’s other finals, including Yusuf Saad Kamel’s victory for Bahrain in the men’s 1,500 meters with Bernard Lagat of the United States taking the bronze medal.

But despite the controversy, Semenya had no apparent difficulty handling the pressure of her first major final. She broke free of her much more experienced competitors on the final lap and won by the huge margin of more than two seconds, finishing in 1 minute 55.45 seconds. (That was still more than two seconds slower than the world record.)

The silver medal went to Janeth Jepkosgei, the defending world champion from Kenya, who finished well back in 1:57.90. The bronze went to Jennifer Meadows of Britain in 1:57.93.

Weiss said that the medal ceremony for the 800 would take place as scheduled on Thursday evening in the stadium but that if the investigation proves Semenya is not a woman, she would be stripped of the gold and the other medalists elevated. The investigation could take weeks, he said.

“But today there is no proof and the benefit of the doubt must always be in favor of the athlete,” he said. “Which is why we had no reason, nothing in our hands, to forbid the athlete to compete today.”

Not all of the finalists agreed. “These kind of people should not run with us,” Elisa Cusma of Italy, who finished sixth, said in a postrace interview with Italian journalists. “For me, she’s not a woman. She’s a man.”

Mariya Savinova, a Russian who finished fifth, told Russian journalists that she did not believe Semenya would be able to pass a test. “Just look at her,” Savinova said.

But sex-determination testing is a complex process that has often not been handled effectively by sports organizations.

“It turns out genes, hormones and genitals are pretty complicated,” Alice Dreger, a professor of medical humanities and bioethics at Northwestern University, said in a telephone interview. “There isn’t really one simple way to sort out males and females. Sports require that we do, but biology doesn’t care. Biology does not fit neatly into simple categories, so they do these tests. And part of the reason I’ve criticized the tests is that a lot of times, the officials don’t say specifically how they’re testing and why they’re using that test. It should be subject to scientific review.”

Sex-determination testing was once obligatory for female athletes at the Olympics because of persistent allegations that some competitors were not really women. Sanctions are very rare. One case came at the 2006 Asian Games, where a middle-distance runner, Santhi Soundarajan of India, was stripped of a silver medal after failing a verification test.

The sex-determination testing was phased out in 1999 because of concerns about inequities. The testing is now reserved for specific cases in Olympic sports.

Nick Davies, a spokesman for the I.A.A.F., said that Semenya, who is listed at 5 feet 7 and 140 pounds in her I.A.A.F. biography, first came to his organization’s attention this year by slicing more than seven seconds off her best time of 2008 in the 800.

That is a huge drop in a relatively short race, but after running 2:04.23 and winning the 2008 Commonwealth Youth Games, she ran 2:00.58 in a local South African meet on March 9 and burst to prominence by winning the African Junior Championships on July 31 in Bambous, Mauritius, in 1:56.72. That was the fastest time of the year, senior level included.

Davies said that potential doping was the first concern when a dramatic drop in time occurs, but in Semenya’s case, he said the I.A.A.F. had moved on to examining other possibilities.

“We just acted in a way we thought was sensible,” Davies said. “If we would have sat back and done nothing, it would have been very strange of us as well.”

He said the I.A.A.F. had decided to confirm the existence of the investigation only when asked about it in Berlin by reporters. “The choice is that you lie, which we don’t like to do,” said Davies, acknowledging that it was unfortunate that Semenya’s privacy had been violated.

Weiss said there had not been enough time to reach a conclusion. “She was unknown three weeks ago,” he told reporters. “Nobody could anticipate this one. Sorry. We are fast, but we are not a lion.”

He said the I.A.A.F. would have “preferred not to have the controversy” at its marquee event, but not at the price of depriving a potentially eligible athlete like Semenya from competing.

“If none of it’s true, I feel very sorry for her,” said Meadows, the British athlete who sat next to Weiss during the medalists’ news conference.

Weiss said that the two-pronged investigation was being conducted in South Africa and in Berlin in hospitals that specialize in sex-testing issues. He said that Dr. Harold Adams, a South African on the I.A.A.F. medical commission, was helping to coordinate the work in South Africa.

Davies emphasized that the testing is extensive, beginning with a visual evaluation by a physician. “There is chromosome testing, gynecological investigation, all manner of things, organs, X-rays, scans,” he said. “It’s very, very comprehensive.”

Dreger, the Northwestern professor, said the doctors could examine genes, gonads, genitalia, hormone levels and medical history.

“But at the end of the day, they are going to have to make a social decision on what counts as male and female, and they will wrap it up as if it is simply a scientific decision,” Dreger said. “And the science actually tells us sex is messy. Or as I like to say, ‘Humans like categories neat, but nature is a slob.’ ”
Van wrote:Kumbaya, asshats.
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Atomic Punk wrote:So why did you post it?
Yes, that just happened.
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

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socal wrote:Sex determination testing?
go fuck yourself.

sin,

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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by Van »

"Just draft him, baby."

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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by Van »

mvscal wrote:
But sex-determination testing is a complex process that has often not been handled effectively by sports organizations.
Really? You just drop your pants, right? Cock and balls? Check...OK, you're a man. Next.
Okay then, so what do we do with Douchebag?
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by Mikey »

...if the investigation proves Semenya is not a woman, she would be stripped of the gold and the other medalists elevated.
In that case wouldn't it then be he?
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by socal »

With a name like Semenya, she has to be dude.
Van wrote:Kumbaya, asshats.
R-Jack wrote:
Atomic Punk wrote:So why did you post it?
Yes, that just happened.
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by Van »

Semenya = Russian splooge
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by Mikey »

Semenyova = daughter of Russian splooge
Semenyov = son of Russian splooge
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by socal »

She does have an Eastern Block edge to her.
.
.
.
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Van wrote:Kumbaya, asshats.
R-Jack wrote:
Atomic Punk wrote:So why did you post it?
Yes, that just happened.
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

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Finkle is Einhorn. Einhorn is Finkle.

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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by Q, West Coast Style »

If they would've tested this guy back in the day who knows how many more grand slams I would've won

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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

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Paging IB for her take on this matter.
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by LTS TRN 2 »

It's not just the mannish face, or the guns (with the masculine hairy armpits--nice) It's the voice! Holy shit! Have you heard this dude speak? He may well have a gash--though I'll bet anything he's not fertile, etc. Nature of course is always a process of efficiency, and this includes crossed wires and overlapping genetic factors from time to time. I'm calling right now that he'll eventually be stripped--no records or Olympics for this fellow. And unfortunately he can't compete with the normal men.
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

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LTS TRN 2 wrote:And unfortunately he can't compete with the normal men.
Maybe he and Kevnic should start their own league.
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by socal »

Mikey wrote:
LTS TRN 2 wrote:And unfortunately he can't compete with the normal men.
Maybe he and Kevnic should start their own league.
A League of Their Pwn starring Dasher, Slasher, Prancer and Vixen.
Van wrote:Kumbaya, asshats.
R-Jack wrote:
Atomic Punk wrote:So why did you post it?
Yes, that just happened.
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by Van »

Are people thinking this creature underwent a sex change operation? Are they thinking she's using male hormones, to cheat? (They said that's actually not the concern.) Are they thinking this thing is just some sort of natural born hermie?

That's what I'm not getting, from everything I've read so far. What is the specific nature of the accusation?
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by LTS TRN 2 »

Van, I know you're a little slow in these matters, but let me explain. He is naturally possessed of certain female properties as well as male. Close to a hermaphrodite but not technically the same. Obviously the tests will focus on hormone levels, etc. That this obviously unique and bizarre situation should be examined closely only now--at the world championships--is absurd of course, and the officials are all quite embarrassed.
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by Van »

Nick, which part of this...
Van wrote:Are they thinking this thing is just some sort of natural born hermie?
...tripped you up?

I already posited the exact thing with which you then responded, so why not just say, "Van, it would be the latter accusation. She's accused of being a natural born hermie."

Then we could get into the specific definitions, if doing so would make you all excited and shit.
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by Jerkovich »

socal wrote:
Mikey wrote:
LTS TRN 2 wrote:And unfortunately he can't compete with the normal men.
Maybe he and Kevnic should start their own league.
A League of Their Pwn starring Dasher, Slasher, Prancer and Vixen.
:meds:

So, when do you mensas start kicking the tan bar?
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by Felix »

She is my little girl. ... I raised her and I have never doubted her gender. She is a woman and I can repeat that a million times.
” -- Jacob Semenya, father of women's 800-meter champion Caster Semenya
five will get you ten that his "little girl" could probably kick the shit out of him...besides, the father has never doubted the gender?!?!?!?!

and he's willing to repeat it a million times

see there ya go...pops says he's she's it's a woman so that should be the end of the discussion.....
get out, get out while there's still time
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by Trampis »

Just another reason why Track and field should never go beyond college.

Could you imagine rolling into your local South African super market and picking up a box of Wheaties with "it" on the cover.
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

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“It turns out genes, hormones and genitals are pretty complicated,” Alice Dreger, a professor of medical humanities and bioethics at Northwestern University, said in a telephone interview. “There isn’t really one simple way to sort out males and females."
This could have been lifted directly from the Michael Jackson autopsy report.
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by The Seer »

socal wrote:Image
Image
“It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.”
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Re: She's a Man, Baby...

Post by H4ever »

socal wrote:Image

Sex determination testing?
August 20, 2009

Get in the gym Slim!

Sincerely,

Venus Williams
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