Any former Air Force here?

[KC Scott]

My oldest son just announced he wants to enlist - Goal is to go into air traffic control.

I had freinds tell me long ago about getting a contract stating the specific job they would get (based on the aptitude tests) - but some of them ended up getting funneled into other vocations.

Any advice i can pass along to him?

[Diego in Seattle]

No advice, as I never served. But I thought I might point out to those who might be thinking the job is just sitting in some control tower telling pilots when to land. These guys are going into combat areas to paint targets for pilots from the ground. By no means a safe office job. Props to your son if that's what he wants to do.

RIP SSgt. Timothy Davis

[Truman]

Rack Jack, Scotty...

I'd be interested in reading a bit 'o feedback as well. Tommy informed me the other day that he might just be interested in making a living (or a dying, as it were) charging machine guns for a living, and dropped a packet of lit in my lap courtesy of Sgt. Carter and the United States Marine Corp.

I figure a 3.8 H.S. cumulative means that he'd make a swell OTS candidate and just smart enough to lead the charge...

Oh well. Kid's a patriot, but I'd still like to hear from the Board's vets.

[Rooster]

Yes, your son can get a guarantee that he'll be given a chance to be selected for an ATC position, but he'll have to have a couple of backup career selections as well. Obviously the military can't lock anyone into a position without that person being able to actually do the job, so barring any unforeseen problems he would get what he wanted. On the other hand, if he wasn't able to do any of the jobs he selected, they would put him into whatever job they have an opening in and they are reasonable certain he could handle, ie cook's asisstant, fuel jockey, rock painter.

After a period of time which depends on the nature of the job and how critical it is, he may be able to switch to something else if he doesn't find it challenging or exciting.

Hope this helps.

[Wolfman]

My oldest son enlisted in the USAF back around 1984. He did a year in Korea and then spent the rest of his duty at the Pentagon. The "connections" he made there got him into the work he does today, which I can't tell you. When I joined the Army I got the MOS I wanted---Radio Relay and Carrier Operator. Sounds like your son will be fine. God bless him and the other who still serve.

[Truman]

A 3.8 is like a 3.0 ten years ago. Everybody has one.

Veiled criticism of the NEA-driven curricula presently taught in our nation's public schools, Screw, or simply referencing the Beginning HVAC and Intro to Archery courses you took to attain yours?

Last I checked, Calc I and Bio III are still, well, Calc I and Bio III. Asshat.

[Truman]

When I was in HS, you couldn't get higher than a 4.0, now matter how PERFECT your grades were. Now, they have kids graduating with 4.4s and 4.5s. Get my drift, idiot? On another note, ever heard of grade inflation?

To quote Wolftard: "I'm living in an insane asylum!"

So in other words, you scored a 3.0 out of a 4.5?

Congratulations, Mensa, that works out to be a C+ average. Easy to see how you might confuse "insanity" with "stupidity".

[Derron]

Rack Jack, Scotty...

I'd be interested in reading a bit 'o feedback as well. Tommy informed me the other day that he might just be interested in making a living (or a dying, as it were) charging machine guns for a living, and dropped a packet of lit in my lap courtesy of Sgt. Carter and the United States Marine Corp.

I figure a 3.8 H.S. cumulative means that he'd make a swell OTS candidate and just smart enough to lead the charge...

Oh well. Kid's a patriot, but I'd still like to hear from the Board's vets.

Not a veteran here..but I have 2 in the Marine Corps, and one just got out.

The one that just got out has a full ride 4 year college benefit with living expenses. Pretty sweet for 4 years active. Also has health care though the VA, and is getting a 10% disability for a back injury in Iraq, and probably more for some PTSD. He plans on finishing that college in 3 years...he did 2 years on the Silent Drill Platoon and really saw the world. He is also in several of their commercials. He already has veteran plates on his ride.

Other one is at Master Gunsmithing school in Quantico. Already has had job offers after he gets out in 2012 to work for defense and weapons contractors working on military contracts. Been deployed twice, once in SE Asia and once in Dubai, and Kuwait.

Another one at Lejune..going to Afghanistan next month. Squad leader / driver/gunner on MRAP. Considering re upping as ordinance disposal for an 100K bonus.

The Marine Corps was very good for all of them. Excellent training, was not that hard according to them, and following 3 of them through basic, MOS, duty postings has been a blast, and a fair amount of travel for the wife and I.

Thank you to all veterans on here for your service to our country. Semper Fi.

Military service should be mandatory for all citizens...even the fags.

[Stanley Pickkkle]

My cousin did 6 years in the Air Force doing Air Traffic Control and now has a great job in Cleveland doing the same work as a civilian.

[War Wagon]

Unlike the Army or Marines, in the Air Force the enlisted grunts tell the officers to "go get 'em", which is nice.

I enlisted right out of HS and the recruiter told me I was going to get the best job in the USAF, that of crew chief.... which it turned out was little more than being a glorified gas station attendant.

Still, I enjoyed and am proud of the time that I served.

[KC Scott]

Thanks to everyone that replied - this is the best advice thread I can remember here.

Best wishes to all that have kids serving - Derron you in particular with the gunnar headed to Afghan.

Once he does his test, and we see what he qualifies for - I'll hit some of you back up for details on what the job(s) really entail.

The ATC was kind of out of the blue for him, he's been laid off for two weeks from the Insulation crew he was running - seems as though the stimulus money release ground to an unexplained halt and his boss had to furlough him and 4 others.

It may be for the best - he's had a hard time finding a direction he wants to go with his life.

[smackaholic]

Thanks to everyone that replied - this is the best advice thread I can remember here.

Best wishes to all that have kids serving - Derron you in particular with the gunnar headed to Afghan.

Once he does his test, and we see what he qualifies for - I'll hit some of you back up for details on what the job(s) really entail.

The ATC was kind of out of the blue for him, he's been laid off for two weeks from the Insulation crew he was running - seems as though the stimulus money release ground to an unexplained halt and his boss had to furlough him and 4 others.

It may be for the best - he's had a hard time finding a direction he wants to go with his life.

Scott,

Being laid off from that shit job may be the best thing that ever happened to him. If he wants the best ATC training in the world though, he's talking to the wrong service.

Anybody can talk down somebody lumbering along in a bus in the sky with a ginormous landing strip under them which isn't moving around. It takes real talent to work finally approach in CATC. That's the place on an aircraft carrier where the ATCers work. I know a bit about this because I used to work with those fukkers. My job was to keep their air search radar and instrument landing equipment running. Best fukking job I ever had.

Another benefit of that job is that as a group, female ACs are the hottest looking rating in the Navy. Too bad they couldn't serve on carriers when I was in. Actually, it was better that way. Chicks at sea just fukk things up.

As for getting it as a guarantee, he can get a written guarantee, but, if he washes out in school, he'll end up where ever the Navy needs him. And being smart isn't the most important thing. A good AC has to be cool as a cucumber while doing 10 things at once. I doubt I'd be very good at it. If he seems like the kind of person that would be good at it though, tell him to go for it.

One other thing about choosing the Navy over the Chairforce is that, as a rule, promotion comes quicker in the Navy. The chairforce is chock full of 18 year E-6s, or in some cases even E-5s. This is because life in the chairforce is pretty fukking shweet, generally, which causes many to decide to hang around. Not so much with the Navy, or better yet, Marines/Army, especially infantry. Wanna make E-9 in 15 years? Pick a service where the job desciption includes sleeping in mudholes and getting shot at.

Which ever service he picks, rack the fukk out of him and you for not raising some tree hugging hippy faggit.

[Derron]

Best wishes to all that have kids serving - Derron you in particular with the gunnar headed to Afghan.

Thank you..all these kids that serve are awesome.

Once he does his test, and we see what he qualifies for - I'll hit some of you back up for details on what the job(s) really entail.

Make sure he stays with something that his grade average and testing qualify him for. One of mine tested high, but wanted to shoot shit and kill hajis, so he went infantry. That lasted about 2 months, he was squad leader, beat the fuck out of some wise ass and got promoted right to the Silent Drill Platoon, did 2 years there, got choice of duty, went to sniper school, did a tour in Iraq and is now out. He could have bypassed the infantry stage, but it worked out for him.

he's been laid off for two weeks from the Insulation crew he was running - seems as though the stimulus money release ground to an unexplained halt and his boss had to furlough him and 4 others.

But those counted as jobs created, even thought they last how long and they are back getting lucky bucks now. Real fucking stimulus that's for sure.

Air Force for 4 or 8, preference to government ATC job, 25 to 30 years at 75K, then a full pension until you die. Sounds a bit better than the prospects for drywall work.

The one going to the sand box, if he re ups as ordinance tech, he gets out after another 4 and writes his own ticket to any bomb squad in the country at 100K per year.

[smackaholic]

Best wishes to all that have kids serving - Derron you in particular with the gunnar headed to Afghan.

Thank you..all these kids that serve are awesome.

Once he does his test, and we see what he qualifies for - I'll hit some of you back up for details on what the job(s) really entail.[/quote]

Make sure he stays with something that his grade average and testing qualify him for. One of mine tested high, but wanted to shoot shit and kill hajis, so he went infantry. That lasted about 2 months, he was squad leader, beat the fuck out of some wise ass and got promoted right to the Silent Drill Platoon, did 2 years there, got choice of duty, went to sniper school, did a tour in Iraq and is now out. He could have bypassed the infantry stage, but it worked out for him.

he's been laid off for two weeks from the Insulation crew he was running - seems as though the stimulus money release ground to an unexplained halt and his boss had to furlough him and 4 others.

But those counted as jobs created, even thought they last how long and they are back getting lucky bucks now. Real fucking stimulus that's for sure.

Air Force for 4 or 8, preference to government ATC job, 25 to 30 years at 75K, then a full pension until you die. Sounds a bit better than the prospects for drywall work.

The one going to the sand box, if he re ups as ordinance tech, he gets out after another 4 and writes his own ticket to any bomb squad in the country at 100K per year.[/quote]

When I was on active duty I looked into going EOD (explosive ordinance disposal). In addition to playing with dynamite, you got dive school. I passed the physical for everything but vision. I would have passed that as well, but, needed to get fitted for glasses first. My vision was fine, just not quite fine enough.

I ended up making E-5 which meant that I would have gotten extra training, but, I would have had to give them an extra 4 years and I said fuggit.

Damn, I wish I had that one to play over.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

...some PTSD.

Cowardice.

[Terry in Crapchester]

If he wants the best ATC training in the world though, he's talking to the wrong service.

Anybody can talk down somebody lumbering along in a bus in the sky with a ginormous landing strip under them which isn't moving around. It takes real talent to work finally approach in CATC. That's the place on an aircraft carrier where the ATCers work.

Partially incorrect. Who's controlling the aircraft on an aircraft carrier depends on how far away from the ship the aircraft is. The AC's actually don't control the aircraft during the final approach, by that time they've been handed off to Pri-Fly. The AC's have them in the middle range. Farthest out, the OS's are controlling the aircraft (or more correctly, the AIC's and ASAC's are -- not all OS's are AIC's or ASAC's).

That having been said, the handoff from the AC's to Pri-Fly occurs at relatively close range to the flight deck, so the AC's definitely have a crucial role to play in the landing.

[KC Scott]

It looks like basic training is Lackland in San Antonio - I've heard AF boot doesn't have much range time? - What should he expect?

[War Wagon]

It looks like basic training is Lackland in San Antonio - I've heard AF boot doesn't have much range time? - What should he expect?

In 1980, 2 days with an M-16. 1 day in the classroom, one day on the range. Who knows now?

Decent chow, too.

He'll breeze right thru.

[Derron]

...some PTSD.

Cowardice.

And your military service was ?

[Smackie Chan]

It looks like basic training is Lackland in San Antonio - I've heard AF boot doesn't have much range time? - What should he expect?

All AF boot camp is at Lackland. Unless he is an utter dipshit or pussy, he'll breeze through it. I did my six weeks from mid-Dec '78 to end of Jan '79. Among the ridiculously easy and attainable requirements was the ability to run 1.5 miles in 19 minutes! But since it was cold and rainy and windy and all, we only had to run in place for that length of time. Air Force has the easiest and shortest of all boot camps. And like my recruiter told me before I signed, it's the most civilian-like of the military services. Best bases, too - better clubs than the other services.

RACK the Chair Force!

[War Wagon]

Air Force has the easiest and shortest of all boot camps.

True, but depending on the job specialty, some of the most lengthy and difficult technical training after boot camp.

And not sure how it works now, but back in 1980 the minimum enlistment period was 4 years while the others services were only two.

So while in many respects the USAF is an easier gig, they also demand a greater committment.

[Smackie Chan]

Air Force has the easiest and shortest of all boot camps.

True, but depending on the job specialty, some of the most lengthy and difficult technical training after boot camp.

My AFSC (MOS in other servces) was Aerospace Control and Warning Systems Operator. Sounds pretty impressive, huh? Something that might require quite a bit of training? My tech school was at Keesler AFB in Biloxi, MS, and began on 1 Feb '79. It was normally a six-week school, but they were implementing a self-paced program when I entered. My first child was due to be born in late Feb, so I busted ass and finished the program in three weeks, hoping to be done in time to be home when he was born. He still hadn't been born when I completed school, but my orders (to Luke AFB in Phoenix) were not ready. It took another week to get my orders. My son was born during that week. He was four days old when I got to see him for the first time.

As for that impressive-sounding job title, we were referred to as "scope dopes" in the AF.

[War Wagon]

As for that impressive-sounding job title, we were referred to as "scope dopes" in the AF.

At least as impressive a job title as Aircraft ground maintenance technician being referred to as "flightline grease monkey".

Among the more glamorous duties... dumping the shitters after each and every 8 hour "Looking Glass" mission. Hey, somebody has to do it.

Good times, between launch and recovery of aircraft, we mostly sat around in trailers playing spades and drinking coffee.

[Smackie Chan]

Good times, between launch and recovery of aircraft, we mostly sat around in trailers playing spades and drinking coffee.

Not much different than what we did. We'd pull hour-long shifts on scope, maybe two or three per 8-hr work shift. The rest of the time was spent in the day room watching TV or playing cards.

Do bruthahs have a bid whist gene? I swear, every one I knew in the service could play it well. Much better game than spades, although I played a few thousand hands of it, too.

[smackaholic]

If he wants the best ATC training in the world though, he's talking to the wrong service.

Anybody can talk down somebody lumbering along in a bus in the sky with a ginormous landing strip under them which isn't moving around. It takes real talent to work finally approach in CATC. That's the place on an aircraft carrier where the ATCers work.

Partially incorrect. Who's controlling the aircraft on an aircraft carrier depends on how far away from the ship the aircraft is. The AC's actually don't control the aircraft during the final approach, by that time they've been handed off to Pri-Fly. The AC's have them in the middle range. Farthest out, the OS's are controlling the aircraft (or more correctly, the AIC's and ASAC's are -- not all OS's are AIC's or ASAC's).

That having been said, the handoff from the AC's to Pri-Fly occurs at relatively close range to the flight deck, so the AC's definitely have a crucial role to play in the landing.

Been almost 20 years, but, I seem to recall the ACs having the guy until the LSO took over. I could be wrong on that. Who the fukk is pri fly anyway. I remember the term, I just don't remember exactly what he did. Is it an aviator billet?

[Diego in Seattle]

My bad....I was thinking Air Combat Controller. So shoot me.

[Terry in Crapchester]

If he wants the best ATC training in the world though, he's talking to the wrong service.

Anybody can talk down somebody lumbering along in a bus in the sky with a ginormous landing strip under them which isn't moving around. It takes real talent to work finally approach in CATC. That's the place on an aircraft carrier where the ATCers work.

Partially incorrect. Who's controlling the aircraft on an aircraft carrier depends on how far away from the ship the aircraft is. The AC's actually don't control the aircraft during the final approach, by that time they've been handed off to Pri-Fly. The AC's have them in the middle range. Farthest out, the OS's are controlling the aircraft (or more correctly, the AIC's and ASAC's are -- not all OS's are AIC's or ASAC's).

That having been said, the handoff from the AC's to Pri-Fly occurs at relatively close range to the flight deck, so the AC's definitely have a crucial role to play in the landing.

Been almost 20 years, but, I seem to recall the ACs having the guy until the LSO took over. I could be wrong on that. Who the fukk is pri fly anyway. I remember the term, I just don't remember exactly what he did. Is it an aviator billet?

Pri-Fly is Primary Flight Control. It's manned by the Air Boss and Mini Boss during Flight Ops, they're assisted by AB's. Both the Air Boss and Mini Boss are aviators, usually with the rank of Commander on a carrier. Primary controls the aircraft immediately prior to landing and immediately after takeoff, like I said they're handed off from/to CATCC at a relatively close range to the ship.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Being laid off from that shit job may be the best thing that ever happened to him. If he wants the best ATC training in the world though, he's talking to the wrong service.

Anybody can talk down somebody lumbering along in a bus in the sky with a ginormous landing strip under them which isn't moving around. It takes real talent to work finally approach in CATC. That's the place on an aircraft carrier where the ATCers work.

I don't regret the Army but, if I had to do it over again, I think I would go Navy. They have the best food and the best ports of call from everything I've heard. The Air Farce isn't bad either. At least you won't have to sleep in mud...which sucks much ass.

If I had it to do over again, I'd choose the Air Force. Best quality of life among the services, by far.

Also, several of the people I know from ND who went through Air Force ROTC seemed somehow to avoid active duty altogether. One of the guys who lived in my dorm and was Air Force ROTC, in fact, toured the country with the Grateful Dead at the same time I was busy with REFTRA and workups for a deployment to the Indian Ocean (a/k/a the shithole of the universe). I still don't know exactly how he pulled that one off (actually, I think I know, but given my suspicions as well as the fact that I'm less than 100% sure, I'd better not say).

[smackaholic]

Then I'll say it for you, Terry.

Uncle Sam is kinda funny about having stoners in his military. he is especially funny about having officer stoners.

It doesn't take MA to equate "toured the country with the grateful dead" with being a stoner. Hell, even if he didn't partake directly, the cummulative effects of night after night of breathing an atmosphere composed primarily of stoner exhaust, would probably make him pop positive on a whiz quiz.

[smackaholic]

Pri-Fly is Primary Flight Control. It's manned by the Air Boss and Mini Boss during Flight Ops, they're assisted by AB's. Both the Air Boss and Mini Boss are aviators, usually with the rank of Commander on a carrier. Primary controls the aircraft immediately prior to landing and immediately after takeoff, like I said they're handed off from/to CATCC at a relatively close range to the ship.

Yup, Air Bosses are aviators. In addition, they are nasty fukking assholes. It's a job requirement. I forget exactly what the mini boss' job was. I think he owns the flight deck. I guess the LSO is part of prifly as well and works for the Air Boss.

And rack the hell out of ABs. Those fukkers have one of the most dangerous and shitty jobs in the military. Sleeping in a mudhole does suck, but, sleeping in the fukking catwalk on a carrier is arguably worse. Those fukkers would be on the flightdeck for days at a time, living on box luches and naps in the catwalk between lauches/recoveries. I on the other hand enjoyed 3 day continuous flight ops as it meant I could defer just about all daily maintenance which left more time for poker games and pron.

[titlover]

Being laid off from that shit job may be the best thing that ever happened to him. If he wants the best ATC training in the world though, he's talking to the wrong service.

Anybody can talk down somebody lumbering along in a bus in the sky with a ginormous landing strip under them which isn't moving around. It takes real talent to work finally approach in CATC. That's the place on an aircraft carrier where the ATCers work.

I don't regret the Army but, if I had to do it over again, I think I would go Navy. They have the best food and the best ports of call from everything I've heard. The Air Farce isn't bad either. At least you won't have to sleep in mud...which sucks much ass.

the small boats have the best food. Carriers are complete shit when it comes to food quality. the only one thing they seem to get right is breakfast, when they have fresh eggs. i'm sure it beats eating MRE's all day in the field though.

[smackaholic]

Yeah, carrier grub is about like bad high school cafeteria food. Supposedly submariners get pretty good chow. I'll bet that's less true though about 2 months into a patrol.

[titlover]

Yeah, carrier grub is about like bad high school cafeteria food. Supposedly submariners get pretty good chow. I'll bet that's less true though about 2 months into a patrol.

yeah they get good food, but fuck that sharing a bed bullshit....

[Terry in Crapchester]

Pri-Fly is Primary Flight Control. It's manned by the Air Boss and Mini Boss during Flight Ops, they're assisted by AB's. Both the Air Boss and Mini Boss are aviators, usually with the rank of Commander on a carrier. Primary controls the aircraft immediately prior to landing and immediately after takeoff, like I said they're handed off from/to CATCC at a relatively close range to the ship.

Yup, Air Bosses are aviators. In addition, they are nasty fukking assholes. It's a job requirement. I forget exactly what the mini boss' job was. I think he owns the flight deck. I guess the LSO is part of prifly as well and works for the Air Boss.

Mini Boss is kind of a "way station" type job. You start out as Mini Boss, then get promoted to Air Boss when the Air Boss rotates off.

And rack the hell out of ABs. Those fukkers have one of the most dangerous and shitty jobs in the military. Sleeping in a mudhole does suck, but, sleeping in the fukking catwalk on a carrier is arguably worse. Those fukkers would be on the flightdeck for days at a time, living on box luches and naps in the catwalk between lauches/recoveries. I on the other hand enjoyed 3 day continuous flight ops as it meant I could defer just about all daily maintenance which left more time for poker games and pron.

Ever go on a deployment to the Indian Ocean with continuous flight ops? My stateroom happened to be directly underneath the waist cats. Between the heat and the noise, sleep wasn't happening. Ever.

[smackaholic]

Terry,
Didn't the AC work? I have heard tales from people that spent some time in the persian gulf saying that the water was so fukking warm that what precious little chilled water they could make went to keeping electronic gear cool. Perhaps the IO gets that damn hot too. Lucky for me, I spent all my time in the nice chilly atlantic and med.

Our coop was generally pretty cool, but, we were on the O2 level right below the bow cats. After a while you learn how to sleep through it. During my stint with the MAAs I slept in their berthing area which was back on the port quarter, 2nd deck. You had just a slight vibration from the screws. Slept like a baby back there. Worst experience was a short 4 or 5 day at sea period. Our coop was getting rehabbed so they put us in some airdale coop on the O3 level right between the 2 and 3 wire AG. That was fukking fun. I had a top rack and as best as I could figure it, I was about 3 feet below where the tailhook strikes the deck.

You don't learn to sleep through that. The cats are a bit noisy but that fukking arresting gear would wake ted kennedy. And yes, I mean the dead ted kennedy.

[Terry in Crapchester]

The problem in the IO was the same. The water was so hot that there was very little chilled water, and that went to keeping the electronic gear cool. Spaces where there was quite a bit of electronic gear, such as the bridge and combat, e.g., stayed cool.

[socal]

You had just a slight vibration from the screws.

'Swat I'm saying.

-Dins

[smackaholic]

You had just a slight vibration from the screws.

'Swat I'm saying.

-Dins

[smackaholic]

The problem in the IO was the same. The water was so hot that there was very little chilled water, and that went to keeping the electronic gear cool. Spaces where there was quite a bit of electronic gear, such as the bridge and combat, e.g., stayed cool.

It's all because of global warming climate change, you know. Why, I'll bet that 200 years ago royal navy ships in the IO probably had iceberg watches.

[Arch Angel]

I was an Air Traffic Controller in the USAF from mid 80's to mid 90's.

Basic Training is very easy.

When you get to Biloxi (Keesler AFB, I was in 03 Squadron), it get's a little tougher depending on which instructors you get. They are usually the washout controllers with a chip on their shoulder. They do a decent job preparing you for the rigors of high stress especially if you got sent to high traffic (Cat III) facilities like Nellis, Davis Monthan, Tyndall, and Ramstein. The traffic patterns used are different than their civilian counterparts. Just pray that you don't get Kirtland, Laughlin, Holloman or Canon, you will go insane as they are the ass-end areas of North America.

It was fun controlling fighters and slow pokes at the same time. It made things interesting calling TAC straight-in, 360 flameout maneuvers, TAC initial and simulating one engine patten work when you got a C-5 or TR-1 coming in. To obtain higher rank, 7110.65 and the AFR 60-5 (might have changed since I have been out a long time now) are a must read from front to back. Along with those books and Air Force general pamphlet, clean uniform, and brown nose mentality, you can have a decent career and good opportunities when you get out.

I thought about making it my career but they took me from the tower atmosphere and stuck me in radar at a civilian NATCF facility. I couldn't handle constant bombardment of military and civilian aircraft, along with all the altitude restrictions therein. It was a nightmare so I decided to quit and go back to something I loved, computers.