Question for T1B Football Refs..

[Mikey]

Shouldn't the guy be down because his knee is on the ground?




Nothing about that in the Rivals article.
http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1001233

[MuchoBulls]

Tough one there. You can see the holder lift his knee, but you can't see when he has control of the ball.

[Wolfman]

Easy one. I'm thinking this is a field goal attempt which is in football rules jargon---a scrimmage kick. The ball is alive. So when the ball was blocked by the defensive team and remained behind the line of scrimmage it was "anybody's ball" and the kicking team could pick it up and run with it. The official's apparently did a good job of not "telegraphing" the situation. Looks like one of the offensive team coaches realized what was happening and got his player to pick up the ball and run with it. Heads up play for them. Sucks to be the other team who had no clue.
BTW--I am in my 40th and final season (32 in CNY and 8 in SW FL) of officiating high school football. I worked 25 play-off and intersectional games in the Syracuse Carrier Dome. It's been fun !

[MuchoBulls]

It's still hard to tell if the knee was down when he picked up the ball.

[Mikey]

Easy one. I'm thinking this is a field goal attempt which is in football rules jargon---a scrimmage kick. The ball is alive. So when the ball was blocked by the defensive team and remained behind the line of scrimmage it was "anybody's ball" and the kicking team could pick it up and run with it. The official's apparently did a good job of not "telegraphing" the situation. Looks like one of the offensive team coaches realized what was happening and got his player to pick up the ball and run with it. Heads up play for them. Sucks to be the other team who had no clue.
BTW--I am in my 40th and final season (32 in CNY and 8 in SW FL) of officiating high school football. I worked 25 play-off and intersectional games in the Syracuse Carrier Dome. It's been fun !

You're thinking this is a field goal attempt? Whatever the hell gave you that idea? Do you actually officiate at football games?

Not such an easy one.

Obviously he wasn't down when he was holding for the kick. But after the kick, he's just as obviously not holding for the kick anymore. Doesn't he then become equivalent to any other player? If his knee is down when he touches the ball after the kick is blocked, shouldn't he then be ruled down?

[Tom In VA]

Lighten up Mikey, jeeeez.

You remember H.S. ball. No whistle = no stop. Shit, we'd get our asses chewed out if we pulled up and quit before a whistle was blown. God help us if we all started celebrating like that.

Let's see.

1.5 hour of practice with a half hour getting our asses chewed.

The hour would be a mix between:

WHISTLE
Bull in the Ring - to get us to love hitting again, I never needed that to love hitting and thoroughly enjoyed Bull in the Ring.

WHISTLE
Oklahama Drills - another awesome drill.

So they get us a little tired then.

WHISTLE
"LINE 'EM UP". At that point we stood in formation and assumed the front leaning rest position in full gear for a series of push-ups. When we thought we couldn't do any more it was

WHISTLE
ON THE LINE

At which point 100 yard sprints, 200 yard sprints and 100 yard Bear Crawls would end the evening.

When would it end ?

You guessed it. At the WHISTLE

The point was they wanted us trained to never stop until we heard .... the WHISTLE

These kids will miss that important life lesson and go onto learn another important lesson. The lesson of protest and lobby to have a ruling changed AFTER YOU FUCKED UP AND DROPPED THE BALL.

Must be a Blue county. :P

[Mikey]

Of course...no whistle, not stop.
I quit football after 9th grade. Baseball and golf were my sports. Much more refined (see George Carlin's baseball vs. football routine).
No quit until the ball's in the hole!!

But...the officials should have been on top of it. Beyond that, whoever wrote the article I linked didn't even mention it.
I was just wondering about the rules. Wolfie apparently didn't even get the question.

OK so I'm an asshole. You gonna hold that against me (no, no, not your asshole)?
I just keep going till I hear a whistle.

[MuchoBulls]

But...the officials should have been on top of it. Beyond that, whoever wrote the article I linked didn't even mention it. I was just wondering about the rules. Wolfie apparently didn't even get the question.

Agree with you about the officials.

The rule would state that the ball carrier would be down once his knee makes contact with the ground.

This would be a tough one for a video replay official to overturn the call on the field because there is no conclusive video evidence to show that the ball carrier's knee was down.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

I'm thinking this is a field goal attempt

oh, wowzers

[BSmack]

After further review, it looked to me like the holder's knee was just off the ground as he gained possession.

Play to the whistle folks.

[DallasFanatic]

After further review, it looked to me like the holder's knee was just off the ground as he gained possession.

Play to the whistle folks.

Second that

[Dan Vogel]

I agree that players have to know that they must play to the whistle. This is a heartbreaking loss for those kids though. The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. Things like this are what is great about sports.

Congratulations to Wolfman on 40 years of referee work. Wow. People could take a lesson from that. You found a nitch and must have enjoyed it. That is giving back to society in positive way. I tip my cap to you.

[ChargerMike]

I'm thinking this is a field goal attempt

oh, wowzers

...wassa matter yooz guys. never seen a re-ret- rhe- rhetorical question before dis? Litten up else I punch yer face!(jk Mikey, I no messa wit chew)

[Mikey]

Startin' to worry about you CM.

You didn't have a stroke or something, did you?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

You should probably cozy up with a dictionary tonight while I'm ass raping your family, Dan.

[Left Seater]

The video is gone, but based on the discussion we are discussing the blocked game winning FG attempt which was then picked up and advanced across the goal line for the winning TD.


From what I understand this game was played in AZ so it was conducted under National Federation of High School rules. These rules pretty much suck and are totally different from NCAA rules which Texas and Mass use for their HS games. That said, I don't know the rule under Federation, but I do know NCAA.

If this were in the NCAA the holder could have possessed the ball on his knee after the block, then stood up and run and the play is still live. How you ask? It goes into the definitions of the rules. During a scrimmage kick with a holder, as long as the place kicker is in position to kick a ball held by the holder, the ball remains live until after a scrimmage kick or a time when the ball can no longer be kicked. The key words are after a scrimmage kick. In this example there was no scrimmage kick. By definition a scrimmage kick is a kicked ball that touches the ground, a player, or an official, beyond the Line of Scrimmage. This FG attempt never touched a player, official or the ground beyond the LOS, so the kick never happened. The holder could put the ball back on the ground the and kicker could kick it again and it would count.

[Mikey]

Great answer Left Seater. Thanks, that makes sense.

The ball was kicked but basically smothered right in front of the holder. He picked it up and everybody on his team milled around for about 10 seconds while the other team ran off ecstacally. It wasn't completely clear if one knee was down while he picked it up, he was sort of in the motion of standing up. Then, either somebody yelled at him, or he just realized, that the play wasn't over and he ran straight to the end zone.

The game was in Michigan, though.

[Wolfman]

What I said. My question was because I did not have the sound on, I wasn't sure if the kick was a field goal attempt (scrimmage kick) or an extra point attempt after some penalties. A similar situation happened at the end of the Iowa-Northern Iowa game a few weeks ago.

[Dan Vogel]

In a thread about high school football and being a referee we have someone come in and making sexual violence threats. I've asked before does anyone really moderate this forum? Is this what you want? Why would you chose to have a trash board? Then I look up and notice that mvcsal is a moderator. I guess the writing is on the wall. I'll be no more here. But I've got scores to settle if I'm going out. Those of you who have continued to make comments and threatening ones you know who you are. This is not over for you and even though I've warned you that your actions are seen by higher authorities that's fine. Enjoy your holidays if you catch my drift.

I have a miserable life and wish I were dead!

[PSUFAN]

The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.

Your pain is our* pleasure, Danny-o.











*Hi, Welcome Wagon

[Mikey]

I think it's time we referred this to the FBI.

[Van]

...as Dan deftly skirts the truth of his inadequacies both as a husband and a speller....