President Dobbs?

[M Club]

Do you think Barry lost his birth certificate??

i realized mine was a reissue. sorry.

otherwise, yes, people happen to lose their birth certificates, and each state has their own procedures for reissuing them. and in between being born and requesting a reissue people maybe started using computers more frequently.

[Diogenes]

Do you think Barry lost his birth certificate??

...people happen to lose their birth certificates, and each state has their own procedures for reissuing them.

In.

Had mine mailed to me from D.C. to San Diego for $15.00. With no ID given.

[poptart]

He has provided his birth certificate, and there is no doubt that he was born in Hawaii.

You lie.

Why do you lie?

He has NOT provided his birth certificate.
He has locked it down.

FactCheck did NOT look at his birth certificate.

A Hawaii COLB is not PROOF that a person was born in Hawaii, even if that document lists Hawaii as the place of birth.
It is possible for parents who have claimed Hawaii as their residence for over a year to list the state as the birth place of a child even if the child is born out of the country.

Do you understand English?

The way for Barry to remove all doubt that he is natural born and eligible to be president is for him produce his birth certificate.

You're irresponsible, Jsc.

If you headed up a law firm, would you hire a person who locked down his birth certificate, his college records and his medical records?

Why would you do that?

[Smackie Chan]

One can only imagine what might happen if Barry releases (or is made to release) his long-form birth certificate, college records and medical records and some ... oooopsie ... BIG surprise is found.

Could verrah well be THE biggest mess in the U.S. history.

So what you're saying is you WANT events to unfold that could potentially cause the country to descend into "THE biggest mess in the U.S. history." Why do you hate America?

Look, Chimpy spent 8 yrs in the Oval Office with an IQ below room temp, and possibly got there with fewer legitimate electoral votes than his opponent. Bode him. Somehow, we were able to survive as a nation. Our current Prez may have (though it's HIGHLY unlikely) gotten into office without being a natural-born citizen. Bode him. We'll likely survive it until the next election or the one after.

To answer your nagging question of why he won't "release" to the satisfaction of you and others these critical documents that you so crave, besides the answer that it keeps you pinheads diverted from focusing on his REAL shortcomings, it may be that he doesn't wanna start down a slippery slope. If he starts accommodating every inane request that you and your fellow fringe members of his opposition demand, pretty soon he'll be asked to release his 3rd grade report card to prove he didn't get an unsatisfactory citizenship mark.

The election's over, dude. Your candidate lost. Accept it and move on. Focus your attention on important, non-destructive issues. Lose the tin-foil headgear.

[Tom In VA]

If a COLB isn't proof, then I reckon I am not a Natural Born citizen. I don't know where the fuck I've been for the past 40 years, I've never left the country - shit - until 2007 when I went to Montreal.

Oh, I had to get a Birth Certificate for that trip. So my parents sent the request and provided whatever they needed to provide and in the mail we received:

1. One piece of paper, the fancy kind, with all kinds of neat designs around the edges and the D.C. seal in the bottom corner.

2. On this paper is a facsimile of the original document recorded in 1969, the typeset used by the data entry clerk using a typewriter in 1969 can be seen. Both the fancy sheet and the facsimile printed on it contain the title "Certificate of Live Birth".


My wife, born in Maine, acquired a copy of her Birth Certificate. This was not an original document nor was it a facsimile of the original document it was - as Smackie has pointed out - a certified print out, from data contained in a database owned by the registrar of Maine.

The title of it is a "Certified Abstract of a Certificate of Live Birth". Even though a Navy brat, my wife has never left this country.


We're American citizens, natural born, so I'm curious why a "COLB" or a "Certificate of Live Birth" isn't sufficient, poptart.

I don't like this guy either but this issue lost it's legs awhile ago.

[poptart]

So what you're saying is you WANT events to unfold that could potentially cause the country to descend into "THE biggest mess in the U.S. history." Why do you hate America?

Huh??

When did I ever say I WANT that to happen?

I've been saying since way BEFORE the election that Barry needs to release his documents.
It's only rightful that a candidate does so.

By saying, "It's ok if he doesn't release his documents," YOU are the one willing to face a potential crisis.

Just friggin' UNBELIEVABLE that you would spin that on me.


If it were found that Barry is not a natural born citizen, it would make every action he has taken as president illegal.

That is not something we would "just get over" as a nation.

I'm not saying that is the case, but it is possible.

I AM saying that it is my opinion that he is hiding something significant by not releasing his documents.

I'm curious why a "COLB" or a "Certificate of Live Birth" isn't sufficient, poptart.

I've already noted a couple of times in this thread that A Hawaii COLB is not PROOF that a person was born in Hawaii, even if that document lists Hawaii as the place of birth.
It is possible for parents who have claimed Hawaii as their residence for over a year to list the state as the birth place of a child even if the child is born out of the country.

[Smackie Chan]

So what you're saying is you WANT events to unfold that could potentially cause the country to descend into "THE biggest mess in the U.S. history." Why do you hate America?

Huh??

When did I ever say I WANT that to happen?

Pretty much throughout this whole thread, but I'll play along as if you don't.

Eight posts down on this page, you say:

I'd prefer to see Barry's long form, as well as his other documents.

If, in an effort to satisfy your curiosity and that of others, his long-form birth certificate is compelled to be released and you are convinced that he was born in the US and meets all other requirements to hold his current office, what will be the result? Answer: He continues to be President.

But if evidence surfaces that proves beyond doubt that he is legally disqualified from the Presidency, the result, according to you, would be "THE biggest mess in the U.S. history." So let's analyze the risk/reward. Is it worth the potential risk, in your opinion, to continue pushing toward the release of your cherished documentation when the reward is that the status quo is maintained but the risk is as ominous as you've portrayed it to be? Seems to me letting the sleeping dog lie (the pun is not lost on me) is the safer course of action for the country.

Anticipating your rebuttal, you will probably say, "But Smackie, I am not saying I want bad things to happen to this country; I'd just like for him to prove to everyone's satisfaction that he has nothing to hide." To which I say, so what? The benefit of his satisfying your obsessive curiosity and not satisfying it are the same - he remains in office. Producing the long form is not going to convert you or any of his other critics to becoming an Obama supporter; you'll STILL despise him. So why continue down this path? It's a non-issue if ignored, and a potentially damaging course of action if pursued.

Just drop it already.

[Tom In VA]

I've already noted a couple of times in this thread that A Hawaii COLB is not PROOF that a person was born in Hawaii, even if that document lists Hawaii as the place of birth.
It is possible for parents who have claimed Hawaii as their residence for over a year to list the state as the birth place of a child even if the child is born out of the country.

I don't know of any other "proof". What else is there ?

[poptart]

The BIRTH CERTIFICATE, Tom.

A COLB is just a document that says, "There is a birth certificate on file."

The PROBLEM is, as I've noted a few times, it is possible for parents who have claimed Hawaii as their residence for over a year to list the state as the birth place of a child even if the child is born out of the country.
In such a case, a COLB would show Hawaii as the birth place, even though it really is NOT.

And not only that, a birth certificate contains information which is not found on a simple COLB.


Smackie, your analysis sucks totally.

What do you think would happen if Barry FINISHED his term as president and it was THEN found out that every action he took was illegal?

Think everyone would toss their hands in the air and say, "aww shucks!"

No fuggen way, man.

There are BIG finances at stake, and those who lost out because of actions Barry took would not sit still.

Chaos, straight up.

[Tom In VA]

The BIRTH CERTIFICATE, Tom.

A COLB is just a document that says, "There is a birth certificate on file."

The PROBLEM is, as I've noted a few times, it is possible for parents who have claimed Hawaii as their residence for over a year to list the state as the birth place of a child even if the child is born out of the country.
In such a case, a COLB would show Hawaii as the birth place, even though it really is NOT.

And not only that, a birth certificate contains information which is not found on a simple COLB.

No, there is a "CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH", which is ... the BIRTH CERTIFICATE. That is what I have for me, from D.C., it shows the hospital, signature of the doctor, etc...

What YOU have contention with in Obama's case is the "CERTIFICATION OF LIVE BIRTH", which the document not unlike what we have for my wife. It is a "printed" copy of the data contained on the birth cert record.

I understand your point, now. The data contained on the "CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH" for Obama, might show that was NOT BORN ON US SOIL. Whereas the "CERTIFICATION OF LIVE BIRTH" simply shows that he - as a natural born US Citizen was born to a woman whose residence was Hawaii at the time.


Okay ?

[Smackie Chan]

What do you think would happen if Barry FINISHED his term as president and it was THEN found out that every action he took was illegal?

About the same thing that would happen if it were determined that Al Gore actually won the 2000 election - nothing. You can't unscramble the egg.

Think about what you're saying here. Let's assume for the sake of argument that he is not a natural-born citizen, and that he is able to remain in office for at least one term with that dark secret kept intact. To whose benefit would it be to continue the witch hunt afterward in an effort to invalidate all the actions he took while in office? Do you think the Supreme Court would hear such a case? What if the secret wasn't uncovered until, say, 10 years or more after he leaves office? Then what? I just don't see this as being as big a deal as the sky is falling scenario that you make it out to be. But keep on wasting bandwidth with your unfounded doom & gloom scenarios.

[Dr_Phibes]

And not only that, a birth certificate contains information which is not found on a simple COLB.

Yes, but the head of the state department of health has verified that the information on the document lines up with the birth certificate, the place of birth is identical on both. It's iron clad, there is a paper trail for this.

Add up the fact that there are newspaper announcements of the birth in the major dailies archives. :?
Trust me on this - I've gone through newspaper archives before everything was digitised and it's no easy task, you have to look at everything manually, it's almost impossible to doctor.

[JMak]

If you were born in Michigan, it takes $40 and 2-to-4 weeks to get a birth certificate mailed to you. I know as I had to buy one to get a DC license.

And my birth certificate from the Royal Oak Clerk's Office sure as hell doesn't look anything like Obama's. Perhaps Hawaii is way ahead of the rest of us when it comes to digital scans. Maybe their scanning software doesn't just take a picture of the original document but uses software to identify the words on it, properly identify names, locations, dates and then enters that data into the new scan document it outputs. Maybe.

Oh, and my dad's birth certificate, just received from the Groton, MA clerk's office tweo months ago didn't look all nice and technologically fancy, either.

Just sayin.

[KC Scott]

In the closing moments of the game in a snowy Foxboro Stadium, with New England trailing by three points, New England quarterback Tom Brady dropped back to pass. Charles Woodson came off the strong side corner blitz to knock the ball out of his hands after he had begun a passing motion, pulling his hand down below his shoulder and touching it with his left hand. Raiders' Middle Linebacker Greg Biekert fell on the loose football. The officials initially called the play a recovered fumble, which would have sealed the victory for the Raiders. But after instant replay, referee Walt Coleman reversed this call, declared the play an incomplete forward pass, and gave possession back to New England. In explaining the reversal to the stadium crowd and the television audience, the referee stated that the ball was moving forward at the time it was dropped. However, instant replays showed that, at the moment Woodson stripped the ball from Brady, Brady had already brought the football back into his non-throwing hand, which would suggest that the "throwing motion" governed by the rule had already been completed and the play should have been ruled a fumble. In later interviews, the referee stated that it was his explanation, not the reversal, that was in error; the ball was moving backwards when it was lost, but the tuck rule applied. In any case, Patriots kicker Adam Vinatieri later tied the game with a dramatic 45-yard field goal, and the Patriots took advantage of the momentum they had seized, defeating the deflated Raiders in overtime on another field goal and eliminating them from the playoffs. Three weeks later, the Patriots won Super Bowl XXXVI.

Poptart railed about this for many years afterwards, regardless that the game was long over and no amount of his lamenting would change that outcome.

[Tom In VA]

JMak,

As I stated, my wife's "proof" that she was born in Maine consists of a "CAOCOLB" - that would be a Certified Abstract of the Certificate of Live Birth. In Hawaii they call that a "Certifcation of Live Birth". It is a fresh print out of the data contained on the original "Certifcate of Live Birth". Certified by the agency serving as the custodian of such records and stamped with the Royal Seal.


Obammy's record is a record, valid and quantified with all kinds of cool latin terms Prima Facist Evidence That You Is.

[poptart]

Yes, but the head of the state department of health has verified that the information on the document lines up with the birth certificate, the place of birth is identical on both.

You're dead WRONG and full of shit, as usual.

The COLB document team Barry posted on the internet lists no place of birth (hospital), bitch.

That's sort of the point, too, you dumbASS.

The following are among those who have examined this issue, and reached the same conclusion:

1) Democratic candidates for President, including Senator Clinton;
2) Republican candidates for President;
3) mainstream media;
4) Snopes, FactCheck, and PolitiFact; and
5) at least 17 federal and state courts

But that's just because poptart hasn't explained it to them.

No, it's because you must be braindead, seeing as I've REPEATEDLY told you that I am not saying that Barry is not a citizen.

The point is, as OCmike touched on, Barry is not some "whitebread" guy from Omaha Nebraska who everyone already knew all about.
He happens to be a guy who, for presidential material, has quite a sketchy background, to say the least.
It's my take that ANY presidential candidate ought to have his BIRTH CERTIFICATE (not COLB), medical records and college records released and put before a bi-partisan congressional panel for examination before the people are allowed to vote for him.
That is not the case now, but Barry, seeing as his background IS very sketchy, ought to release these documents just to have everything clear before the people.
And I seriously doubt that YOU would hire an individual to work for you (in a serious job) who would not release such documents to you.

But you are willing to have the POTUS not release his.

Ponderous, to say the very least.

it is possible for parents who have claimed Hawaii as their residence for over a year to list the state as the birth place of a child even if the child is born out of the country.
In such a case, a COLB would show Hawaii as the birth place, even though it really is NOT.

Link?

Let's backtrack for a short bit, first.

First, you are on record on this board as saying that what was posted on the internet by team Barry is a forgery.
I lean that way, also, but I'm not going to begin to get into all of that.

FactCheck says that they had the REAL document that team Barry posted and it is legit.
Jsc's beloved FactCheck "mis-spoke" (I guess) when they said that they have Barry's BIRTH CERTIFICATE and it is authentic.
They never did.
They had his COLB, and the COLB does not contain information that is found on the true long-form birth certificate.
But let's go along and say that Barry's COLB that they had is legit.
Ok, fine.

Here is what the State of Hawaii’s official government websites publish about their COLB's.

‘The Certification of Live Birth is a legal document, but it is TOTALLY INADEQUATE when it comes to proving an individual was born in Hawaii.

The State of Hawaii DOES NOT EVEN ACCEPT the Certification of Live Birth as valid proof that an individual was born in Hawaii.

The Hawaii Department of Homelands, which administers programs to encourage property ownership for native Hawaiians states the following on its website.

‘In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found ONLY on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth(a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL’.”


Why does Hawaii itself insist on the long-form as PROOF?

Maybe many reasons, but

You can read THIS about Hawaii ACT 96, which was in effect from 1911-1972

As you can read, uncorroborated testimony of one person, with no corroboration from a hospital or attending doctor, could result in a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth being issued.

But of course on a legit long-form Birth Certificate, we can VERIFY things because important information such as the name of the hospital and attending doctor, as well as the doctor's signature are present on the document.

There is currently NO verification from a Hawaii hospital or doctor about the birth of B. Obama in that state.

Also very interesting reading is this ...

http://www.westernjournalism.com/?page_id=2697

... if you want to see the various ways that births were recorded in Hawaii in 1961.
If you read about the first half of that piece you get a pretty good picture of how things were done at that time.

The bottom line point is that it was, based on it being almost 50 yrs ago, the nature of the state, and the geographical location of the state, a fairly "murky" situation as far as Certificates being made up existed in Hawaii.

It's not NEARLY cut & dried simple like FactCheck tells us it is.

At this point we have exactly ONE person, Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii State Department of Health, who is said to have seen Barry's long-form certificate.

ONE person.

lol

And this one person has given two statements on the issue and then said she will be making no further comments on it.
One of her statements was bordering on the surreal and the other one was at the very least "strange" in the wording that she chose to use.

Of course there is the "famous" case of Sun Yat-sen, a non-American, who was issued a Hawaii COLB way back in the day.

Google is your friend.

Given Hawaii's situation and it's methods and "standards" of handing out Certificates 50 yrs ago, it's not hard to imagine that there may be MANY non-Americans who were certified in that state.

Think about what you're saying here. Let's assume for the sake of argument that he is not a natural-born citizen, and that he is able to remain in office for at least one term with that dark secret kept intact. To whose benefit would it be to continue the witch hunt afterward in an effort to invalidate all the actions he took while in office? Do you think the Supreme Court would hear such a case?

There may not BE a Supreme Court anymore if the shit really hit the fan.

But if there is, why would they NOT hear the case?

I just find it amazing (or maybe not) that you would favor allowing a fraud, an usurper, to hold the highest office in the land, rather than getting his @ss OUT of there, on the basis of ... keeping things smooth.

UN fucking real point of view.


Barry can put the whole thing to bed by releasing his documents.

I'm not holding my breath.

Lawsuits will continue and at some point, many things regarding this will be revealed.

They always somehow seem to find a way to do that.


One last point, and it's just my point of view -- Barry may not be a natural born citizen regardless of whether or not he has a valid Hawaii birth certificate, due to his father being a citizen of Kenya and that citizenship being passed to him at birth -- dual citizenship equals not natural born.

http://larrymwalkerjr.blogspot.com/2009 ... tizen.html

Article 2, section 1 of the Constitution states, "No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of president; neither shall any person be eligible who shall not attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United Satates."

The addition of a grandfather clause in this paragraph says a lot as to the meaning of natural born. The first thing it says is that being born in the US is not enough to be natural born, otherwise the grandfather clause would not be necessary. The writers and delegates, having been born in the US, wanted to be eligible for the presidency, but most were the children of British subjects. Knowing that that eliminated them from being natural born and, thus, from eligibility, they included the grandfather clause which expired when the last person alive at the time of the ratification of the Constitution died. So, being a native born citizen is not the same as being natural born. If it were the framers would not have included the clause.


Jmo on that.

[JMak]

He happens to be a guy who, for presidential material, has quite a sketchy background, to say the least.

Who you callin "sketchy", bitch?

Sincerely,
Bill Ayers

[Stanley Pickkkle]

mmmmmmm...........Chocolate sausage.

[Stanley Pickkkle]

mmmmmmm...........Chocolate sausage.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Shouldn't you be getting run by some two-bit local radio hack?

[Q, West Coast Style]

Simpliest answer to the "birther" question.

If Obama really was born in Indonesia or Kenya, do you really think the Clintons (Especially the Clintons!) and the McCain camp, with all of their global connections and resources, couldn't nail him on it?

[M Club]

I don't know when or how M Club got his passport.

Your source is full of shit.

eh?

[War Wagon]

Poptart railed about this for many years afterwards, regardless that the game was long over and no amount of his lamenting would change that outcome.

So?

I'm still pissed about that 5th down against Colorado and the kicked ball against Nebraska. The statute of limitations for bitching about bad calls against your team never expires.

Obama's birth certificate however... meh.

But if 'tart wants to raise Holy Apocalyptic Hell over it, that's his perogative. Dude has earned that right over the years on these boards. I won't be a bit surprised if the tenacious fuck runs you all, eventually, from sheer exhaustion.

[poptart]

Simpliest answer to the "birther" question.

If Obama really was born in Indonesia or Kenya, do you really think the Clintons (Especially the Clintons!) and the McCain camp, with all of their global connections and resources, couldn't nail him on it?

It's not an answer.

The fact that McCain and Clinton didn't "nail" Barry on the BC issue does not PROVE that he was born in Hawaii.

The thing that WILL prove it is a valid long-form Hawaii Birth Certificate.

[M Club]

Meaning an original, "long form" (or whatever) birth certificate is not necessary to get a passport. The source poptard used was full of shit.

ah, thanks. just saw my name and thought, "whaa?"

[Dinsdale]

As much as I'd like to see Odouchebag removed for his crimes (yes, violating the Oath of Office IS a crime, but Americans don't demand accountability, so they don't get it), it would be pretty hard to fudge those old copies/microfishe of the birth announcement from the Hawaiian newspapers.

[Dr_Phibes]

I'm just trying to figure out the big deal between a 'natural born American' rather than anything else.
Racial purity? 'Cultural' loyalty? Middle class values?
Deeply weird if you ask me. Get an actual Kenyan in there, he'll shake things up - it might be an adventure, you never know.

[Dinsdale]

The root of our constitution is now on par with used toilet paper.

FTFY

[Diogenes]

I'm just trying to figure out the big deal between a 'natural born American' rather than anything else.
Racial purity? 'Cultural' loyalty? Middle class values?
Deeply weird if you ask me. Get an actual Kenyan in there, he'll shake things up - it might be an adventure, you never know.

It's the Alex Hamilton clause.

He was that well liked.

[poptart]

Meaning an original, "long form" (or whatever) birth certificate is not necessary to get a passport. The source poptard used was full of shit.

http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/fi ... t_830.html

If you scroll down to STEP 2 on this page from the U.S. Dept. of State, it tells you what you need to show as evidence of your citizenship in order to get a passport.

You need to show -------> a Certified Birth Certificate.

Just to note, what team Barry, posted on the interweb and what FactCheck said they looked at, and also posted on the internet, was Barry's Certification, not his Certificate.

A Certification of Live Birth may be acceptable to get a passport (we see this on the Gov website -- Please note, some short (abstract) versions of birth certificates may not be acceptable for passport purposes) IF, it seems, the following criteria is met:

- A certified birth certificate has a registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar's office, which must be within 1 year of your birth. -

Well, what Barry posted on the internet does NOT meet the criteria because we see no seal and we see no signature.

If he took that shit to get a passport it's a FAIL.


Ok, ok ... but FactCheck, we hear, saw the REAL thing and they say that it DOES meet all the criteria, they say ... and they even posted pics.

Yes, one pic they posted DOES show a seal.
And yes, a pic DOES show a registrar's sig -- but by it's LONESOME.

There is NO context to show that that registrar's sig belongs to the document that they say is Barry's.
You've seriously GOT to be kidding me that they didn't post a pic of that registrar's sig where you could SEE that it was pasted on the document.

LMAO

They posted this --




And they posted this --




If they wanted to show that the sig was ON the Barry document they needed to fold the document to allow for that to show in the pic.

In effect, all they did was post a pic of the Hawaii registrar's signature.

Big fuckin' whoop!

lol

With that evidence at hand, it's a FAIL as far as getting a passport.



Dins, the news clippings are not a big deal.

Jsc should AGAIN hear, I am not saying Barry was not born in Hawaii.
Perhaps he was, and that is why we have those clippings.

But perhaps it was simply general procedure for the state to send (or call) in new birth registrations to the two papers.

48 yr old newspaper clippings don't prove shit.

A valid long-form birth certificate DOES.

[poptart]

He was born in Hawaii

What hospital?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

[BSmack]

Birthers are funny people.

[titlover]

Birthers are funny people.

yeah even funnier than that are nutjobs who believe 9-11 was an inside job by Bush and all teh other tinfoil headed theries that you and your libtard buddies thought was gospel......

get fucked

[BSmack]

Birthers are funny people.

yeah even funnier than that are nutjobs who believe 9-11 was an inside job by Bush and all teh other tinfoil headed theries that you and your libtard buddies thought was gospel......

get fucked

Are you high? Drunk?

[upstart]

Rack Poptart for having the sand to ask the question that needs to be answered.

Now all obama needs to do is show the proof and it's done.

I myself don't understand why Obamatross has spent milions on lawyars trying to hide the

damn thing. All he needs to do is slap it down on the table and say "now shut the fuck up" and be done with it

[upstart]

BTW Pop,

It was a fumble.