No Chops?

[Van]

SG, Holdsworth doesn't play flamenco. What he does play, DeLucia couldn't...and vice versa.

Don't tell me you don't even know who Allan Holdsworth is?

dimeoverrated

That's for damn sure. Dime was wildly overrated. Now try telling your sister that.

[Samurai Gangbang]

i know who he is. do you seriously think I don't? what kind of a dumbfuck are you?

I like holdsworth, a lot. but he's ultimately pretty fucking tedious and cannot do what de lucia did.

De lucia's techinique is so fucking bitchin', he could easily play that whole tone wankery that holdsworth has convinced a small amount of jizzlords is cool.

it's wankery and it's fucking boring. impressive technique... but just lame.

[Van]

Yeah, Holdsworth's chord work is lame, 'jizzlord'.

Jesus, if I had to spend ten minutes alone with you and your sister, with the way you two talk...we'd all die.

[Lillian Vernon]

Why did you not respond to this point?

Arguing taste is pointless, since it 's all just personal preference.... Nobody's arguing taste, because taste cannot be argued...

Who cares? Your opinon means nothing, because:

-Your taste in most everything is juvenile and lame anyway.

Maybe because it shows you are an illogical blowhard?

I defined my understanding of chops as the technical ability of the chosen style of the artist at the beginning of this thread. You have defined it several different ways and then painted yourself into a logical corner claiming that taste cannot be argued, then arguing as your first point that my taste is "juvenile and lame." If you want to argue over my definition of chops, fine, but all your other bloviating on the subject doesn't even apply, because I set out my definition at the beginning and stuck to my argument, whereas you flailed about like a hysterical jizz worshipper.

The statement that a legend deemed "Master of the Telecaster" has NO CHOPS makes you sound like a total dipshit.

And your statement that he can't play chords is ABSURD. I guess all those songs he wrote have no chord progressions?

Dime is not overrated. I don't even like his shredding, or anyone else's for that matter, it's his riffing that is badass and you even admitted the Walk lead is killer. He doesn't shred on that lead at all. Why are you even bringing up Dime? He is the best metal guitarist in my opinion, but we are not discussing metal. He does some cool guitar work in Rebel Meets Rebel too, he is definitely not just a shredder, and he is about the most soulful metal player out there, as much as the term "soul" even applies to metal, which is hardly at all. There is a certain southern groove to many of his riffs that is very cool and unique. He also pioneered the staccato style of metal riffing on Vulgar Display of Power.

But of course you would rather beat off to Guthrie Govan's boring fusion crap.

[Van]

[Samurai Gangbang]

i'm still laughing that Van thinks Paco couldn't play Holdsworth licks. laughable. with that liquidy tone and low action guitar... please.

and sorry for not using the queen's english, bro. :D

[Samurai Gangbang]

and i just saw the fusion comment: yes, fusion is utter crap.

edit for Vanglish: I just read the fusion comment; fusion is utterly absurd.

[Lillian Vernon]

You just commited a mortal sin besmirching his butt-lover Guthrie Govan - go look him up.

You'll probably wanna dis him too, and all hell will break loose again.

[Van]

You two need to fuck again, full-on Smell The Glove style.

[Lillian Vernon]

[Samurai Gangbang]

[Katy]

followed by Katy describing your sheer brilliance in getting over by rolling over.

Van, shut the fuck up and leave me out of your squabbles.

[smackaholic]

First off, rack van for my new sig. Nice to see that you are carrying mvscal's torch during his (hopefully) temporary exile.

Thanks to LV for teeing it up for van. Haven't laughed this hard in here in awhile.

Nice youtube links van. I can see why you have such a hard on for Moore. He does a very good BB King (needs to work on his vibrato pinky wiggle), but, IMO, he does a perfect Vai. His tone and uhhhh... chops (I think) is absolutely spot on.

And SG, will you STFU already about Paco. Yes, he is the motherfukking all around undisputed chop champ, but, that's not what this is about. It's about LV's dillusional ideas about guitar playing. As for whether or not he could play holdsworth, post a fukking link or STFU. Maybe he can. Maybe he can't. I would love to see him do it. I am sure it would be interesting.

If I was gonna come upwith an example of who he couldn't do, it'd be SRV. I haven't seen anybody get the kinda big sound out of a guitar that Stevie could. Damn, I wonder how much awesome stuff we were all cheated out of with his permature death.

[Van]

followed by Katy describing your sheer brilliance in getting over by rolling over.

Van, shut the fuck up and leave me out of your squabbles.

How about you take your own advice then...

Call it the mother of all troll jobs. You've got to RACK Marty for that.

Just because Marty ran with the Cinder/Perk shit and let people think he was someone he wasn't, doesn't make him an asshole, it makes him brilliant.

No, it doesn't make him brilliant at all. It took no 'brilliance' on his part to play dumb and do nothing else.

Now your buddy SG claims this abortion of an effort is all a troll job, and you tend to rack his and his insipid sister's every breath, no matter how useless their posts. So, pardon me for knowing for a fact that you were were sitting there cheering them on, just itching to get your "But...but...but they're my FRIENDS, they're EPIC, and I just know they could be good posters if only they were given the chance!" rack on.

You kinda have a precedent established here.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

you're not worthier than anything more than a cheap mspaint hack-job

[Van]

you're not worthier than anything more than a cheap mspaint hack-job

That would be "...not worthy of anything more than..." you talentless cretin.

Going to the cheap crayons card now, eh? Well, photoshopping and pic wytching have always played well here, regardless of how unimaginative or unfunny, so I salute you for your solid diversionary strategy, oh young bastard child of generic smack.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

That would be "...not worthy of anything more than..." you talentless cretin.

Going to the Dins (another faggot) Card?

Everyone is laughing at your nebbish infatuation with cock-rock idols. You are child-like.

[Van]

Aren't you the guy who purports to like music based on whether it still appeals to kids? Why yes, you are. You're a grown man who still listens to adolescent music, precisely because it's adolescent music. If it's crass, simple and stupid, you'll all for it.

Good that you've found your niche.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Aren't you the guy who purports to like music based on whether it still appeals to kids? Why yes, you are.

Uh, no...stupid.

But go ahead and pull that quote so I can pound it into your face and make you look like the sad, clinging clown you are.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

That's right. You won't post the quote because after re-reading it, you now realise it was something everyone but you "got". Again, you're marooned on Van Island, flapping your arms like a moron, surrounded by a sea of retardation. All alone.

[Katy]

How about you take your own advice then...

You brought my name up in this mess. If you have some sort of problem with me, air it out.

[LTS TRN 2]

No, Kunt, no one has anything to say to you on this topic. If the subject of Haagan Daz binging while watching Rosie reruns comes up, we'll get back to you.

I defined my understanding of chops as the technical ability of the chosen style of the artist at the beginning of this thread.

As for the great question of chops and blues...this guy deserves some kind of consideration--if only in expanding a practical definition of blues chops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1xvx0UHa0A


It's true he's always sort of playing the same song ("Stormy Monday") but like B.B. King, that's just style. Check out his touch and taste--and how much Duane Allman stole from this guy!

[Katy]

No, Kunt, no one has anything to say to you on this topic. If the subject of Haagan Daz binging while watching Rosie reruns comes up, we'll get back to you.

Ffffat smack?

You're right, I'm massively huge.

[Lillian Vernon]

As for the great question of chops and blues...this guy deserves some kind of consideration--if only in expanding a practical definition of blues chops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1xvx0UHa0A


It's true he's always sort of playing the same song ("Stormy Monday") but like B.B. King, that's just style. Check out his touch and taste--and how much Duane Allman stole from this guy!

Dude has NO CHOPS...

Signed, Van

I can hear how Hendrix was influenced by this guy too.

What Van seems to miss here is that if this guy or Collins, or BB, etc. ventured off into the areas he requires them to in order to have what he considers "chops," they would no longer be pure blues players.

[Tom In VA]

Dayum, thanks for the link LTS ...

Quid pro quo ... my all time favorite:

[Van]

LV, what on earth would ever possess you to believe that a 'pure blues player' can't have a fuckload more skill sets than those displayed by someone like AC? Chops and blues aren't mutually exclusive, you ridiculous dumbshit. A guy can have chops for days and still play 'pure blues'. He can finger pick pure blues, he can play slide for pure blues...double stops...single lines...flat picking...acoustic...electric...chords...capos...twelve strings...fast...slow...simple...complex...etc.

Any of it and all it can be pure blues. Robben Ford can play pure blues all day long, using a bazillion different techniques. It doesn't cease to be pure blues, just because you haven't heard of it/don't like it/don't get it.

Oh, and Marty...

You're a hip hop and punk fan?

Hip hop is punk

and

Punk is hip hop


The origins are similar. Real beats from the street, outside the corporate machine, by the kids, for the kids.

That perfectly jibes with the garbage you play as a DJ: punk and hip hop.

Unless you're somehow getting paid to pander to the lowest common denominator, who the fuck cares what the kids like when you're no longer a kid? You're supposed to have outgrown that garbage.

Not you, though. You like utter crap. EOS.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

[Lillian Vernon]

LV, what on earth would ever possess you to believe that a 'pure blues player' can't have a fuckload more skill sets than those displayed by someone like AC? Chops and blues aren't mutually exclusive, you ridiculous dumbshit. A guy can have chops for days and still play 'pure blues'. He can finger pick pure blues, he can play slide for pure blues...double stops...single lines...flat picking...acoustic...electric...chords...capos...twelve strings...fast...slow...simple...complex...etc.

Any of it and all it can be pure blues. Robben Ford can play pure blues all day long, using a bazillion different techniques. It doesn't cease to be pure blues, just because you haven't heard of it/don't like it/don't get it.

Those "bazillion" different techniques, as you so immaturely put it is what takes pure blues into crossover territory.

There is no formal definition of "chops" as it relates to music, It's a meaningless slang term. The only real definition of the word is to descend in a swift, abrupt motion, or something to that effect, which is precisely how AC approaches the guitar. Going on extended jizz runs with a pick all over the neck doesn't exactly conjure up an image of "chopping" the way AC's style does. If anyone "chops" at the guitar, it's Albert Collins. What you are describing is some sort of concept of liquidity. I will therefore stipulate that your jizzlords are more "fluid" players than AC.

[Van]

Define 'pure blues'. At what point, adding which technique, does 'pure blues' become something else? What are its boundaries?

[smackaholic]

from meriam webster online...

Main Entry: chops
Pronunciation: \ˈchäps\
Function: noun plural
Etymology: alteration of 3chap
Date: 1589

1 : jaw
2 a : mouth b : the fleshy covering of the jaws <a dog licking its chops>
3 : embouchure; broadly : the technical facility of a musical performer
4 : expertise in a particular field or activity <acting chops>

Well, there you have it lil, according to meriam webster, chops=technical facility of a musicval performer. That shit you just pulled out your ass about it meaning quick burst is hogwash.

[smackaholic]

Define 'pure blues'. At what point, adding which technique, does 'pure blues' become something else? What are its boundaries?

You have to be an old black dude with silly hair, substance abuse issues, women troubles and an axe capoed down to 3 usable frets.

[Van]

from meriam webster online...

Main Entry: chops
Pronunciation: \ˈchäps\
Function: noun plural
Etymology: alteration of 3chap
Date: 1589

1 : jaw
2 a : mouth b : the fleshy covering of the jaws <a dog licking its chops>
3 : embouchure; broadly : the technical facility of a musical performer
4 : expertise in a particular field or activity <acting chops>

Well, there you have it lil, according to meriam webster, chops=technical facility of a musicval performer. That shit you just pulled out your ass about it meaning quick burst is hogwash.

And here I thought I'd just made that whole 'technical facility' thingie up, as a broadbrush, obvious definition any monkey would understand and agree with.

I should get a job with those bitches.

[Van]

Define 'pure blues'. At what point, adding which technique, does 'pure blues' become something else? What are its boundaries?

You have to be an old black dude with silly hair, substance abuse issues, women troubles and an axe capoed down to 3 usable frets.

Will three out of five be enough?
-Johnny Winter

[smackaholic]

Define 'pure blues'. At what point, adding which technique, does 'pure blues' become something else? What are its boundaries?

You have to be an old black dude with silly hair, substance abuse issues, women troubles and an axe capoed down to 3 usable frets.

Will three out of five be enough?
-Johnny Winter

sorry johnny, looks like it's blues fusion for you.

[Lillian Vernon]

"To me chops means technique in the chosen style of the artist."

My definition was not exactly that different. I guess I missed that - I couldn't find one anywhere.

I'll give you Johnny Winter, he did do some pure blues stuff...



Are you going to tell me he was playing anything here Albert Collins couldn't pull off with a thumb pick, or would you be more likely to find the kind of playing you refer to as superior "chops" in Rock and Roll Hoochie Koo? NO, he didn't over-jizz, because that would take it out of the realm of pure blues.

I love Johnny Winter, by the way. :D

Rack this tune!



Interesting side note:

After recording "De-Frost" b/w "Albert's Alley" for Hall-Way Records of Beaumont, TX, he hit it big in 1962 with "Frosty," a million-selling single. Teenagers Janis Joplin and Johnny Winter, both raised in Beaumont, were in the studio when he recorded the song. According to Collins, Joplin correctly predicted that the single would become a hit. The tune quickly became part of his ongoing repertoire, and was still part of his live shows more than 30 years later, in the mid-'80s. Collins' percussive, ringing guitar style became his trademark, as he would use his right hand to pluck the strings. Blues-rock guitarist Jimi Hendrix cited Collins as an influence in any number of interviews he gave.

Read this bio and keep maintaining the guy has NO CHOPS...

Personal Information

Born May 3, 1932, in Leona, Texas; died November 24, 1993, of lung cancer, in Las Vegas, Nevada; married Gwendolyn Collins, 1968.

Career

Blues guitarist, singer, and songwriter. Born to a sharecropping family; moved to the black ghetto of Houston, TX, as a child; learned to play piano as a youth and grew up listening to big-band music of Jimmie Lunceford, Count Basie, Louis Jordan, and Tommy Dorsey; learned to play guitar from cousins Willow Young and Lightnin' Hopkins; began playing blues at local clubs with Clarence "Gatemouth" Brown, 1947; played with his own group, the Rhythm Rockers while working days on a ranch and driving a truck, 1949-51; played with Piney Brown's band, early 1950s; became session player, 1953; recorded and performed with LIttle Richard, Big Mama Thornton, and others, 1950s; recorded first single, "The Freeze," 1958; recorded million-selling single, "Frosty," 1962; released first major album, Truckin with Albert Collins, for Blue Thumb, 1965; signed with Imperial label, 1968; sang for the first time on an album (Love Can Be Found Anywhere (Even in a Guitar), 1968; toured extensively throughout California, late 1960s; performed at Newport Jazz Festival and Fillmore West, 1969; stopped performing and began working for a building contractor in Los Angeles, 1971; signed with Alligator record label, and formed the Icebreakers, 1977; performed at Montreux Jazz Festival, 1975; performed with George Thorogood at Live Aid Concert, 1985; was chief attraction at American Guitar Heroes concert at Carnegie Hall, New York City, 1985; performed on Musicruise Dayliner circling Manhattan on opening night of JVC Jazz Festival, 1987; appeared in film, Adventures in Babysitting; was subject of television documentary on PBS, Ain't Nothin' But the Blues, 1980s.

Life's Work

Although he went largely unrecognized by the general public during most of his career, the Texas-born musician Albert Collins eventually was acknowledged as one of the most talented and distinctive blues guitarists of his era. He established his fame by creating a unique sound with his Fender Telecaster guitar that was based on unusual tunings and scorching solos. His nickname "Iceman" was bestowed on him because his guitar sounds were piercing and could scorch the ears, just as icicles were sharp and could burn.

Peter Watrous wrote in the New York Times that "Mr. Collins made his reputation by combining savage, unpredictable improvisations with an immediately identifiable tone, cold and pure." "In the Iceman's powerful hands," said Jas Obrecht in Guitar Player, "that battered Tele could sass and scold like Shakespeare's fire, jab harder than Joe Louis, squawk like a scared chicken, or raise a graveyard howl."

Musicians ranging from Musicians ranging from Jimi Hendrix to Canned Heat to Robert Cray have cited Collins as having a major influence on their styles. He was especially known for his frenzied live peformances during which he would often stroll into the audience and dance with the fans, his playing arena extended by a 100-foot extension cord attached to his electric guitar. Often he would start talking a blue streak, regaling his fans with hilarious and lewd remarks.

While his crowd-pleasing improvisations made him an extremely popular performer over the years, his recordings sold erratically until late in his career. His ultimate fame was also delayed by the long-time domination of Chicago blues over the Texas-based version. While the Chicago blues of performers such as Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf emphasized group jam sessions, the Texas variety was more of a showcase for individual talent where guitarists tried to outplay each other. Few could compete with Collins in these "bouts," but his talent didn't bring him widespread fame until he was brought to the attention of rock fans in the late 1960s.

After moving to the Houston ghetto as a child, Collins first became interested in music while listening to the pianist in his church. He took piano lessons at school, then learned about playing guitar from his cousins, blues guitarists Willow Young and Lightnin' Hopkins. His cousins turned out to be major influences on Collins's trademark style. He emulated Young's style of playing without a pick, and learned to tune the guitar in a minor key from Hopkins. By using his fingers rather than a pick, his playing developed a more percussive sound.

Collins claimed in Guitar Player that he made his first guitar out of a cigar box, using hay-baling wire for strings. Through his teen years he wanted to be an organist, but his interest in that instrument waned after his organ was stolen. While Collins said that his greatest influence was Detroit's John Lee Hooker, he spent much of his youth listening to the big band music of artists such as Jimmie Lunceford, Count Basie, and Tommy Dorsey. At one time he considered becoming a jazz guitarist, and his playing often shifted between blues and the horn-driven sound of a jazz big band.

After Collins switched form acoustic to electric guitar, he began listening to T-Bone Walker, Clarence "Gatemouth" Brown, and B.B. King to refine his talent. Brown was a key influence due to his horn-driven sound that Collins found especially exciting. Collins emulated Brown by starting to play with a capo and a Fender guitar, an insturment that would become inextricably linked to him. Since he couldn't afford to buy the guitar at that time, he started by having a Fender Telecaster neck put on another guitar.

By age 15 Collins was playing at local blues club with Brown. Then he formed his own group, the Rhythm Rockers, in 1949, with which he performed at honky tonks in Houston's all-black Third Ward on weekends while working during the week as a ranch hand and truck driver. Next on his career path was three years of touring with singer Piney Brown's band.

In the early 1950s, Collins's talent earned him positions as session players with performers such as Big Mama Thornton. He later replaced future guitar great Jimi Hendrix in Little Richard's band. By this time Collins had established himself as a great eclectic who could produce unusual sounds with his guitar playing. As David Gates wrote in Newsweek, Collins "tore at the string with his bare hands instead of the ostensibly speedier pick, used unorthodox minor tunings instead of the more versatile standard ones and unashamedly clamped on a capo (a bar across the fingerboard, which raises the pitch of the strings), making the already stinging Telecaster sound even more bright and piercing."

Collins cashed in on the popularity of instrumentals ushered in by performers such Booker T., Duane Eddy, and Link Wray in the late 1950s. His first recording, an instrumental called "The Freeze," featured extended notes played in a high register. Collins told Guitar Player that the record sold about 150,000 copies in a mere three weeks.

Collins lost a chance to play with soul music star James Brown in the late 1950s because he couldn't read music. Meanwhile, he still didn't feel that he could make his living entirely from guitar playing, and he worked as truck drivers and as a mixer of paint for automobiles. Then he hit the blues big time with his recording of "Frosty," released in 1962, that sold over a million copies and became a popular blues standard. This song confirmed his reputation as a player of "cold blues," and his producer urged him to continue this theme in his song and album titles. He even named his backup band The Icebreakers.

With just his fingers and his capo that he would move up and down the neck of his guitar, Collins produced a wide range of effects ranging from the sound of car horns to footsteps in the snow. He released a series of singles for small record labels such as Kangaroo, Great Scott, Hall, Fox, Imperial, and Tumbleweed that had moderate success at the regional level. He continud playing through the 1960s, but recording very sporadically and was unable to tour because of his day job.

According to Peter Watrous in the New York Times, Collins' first significant album was Truckin with Albert Collins in 1965. The album featured what would become famous blues recording of his previously released "Frosty," "Sno-Cone," and other songs. Following the release of his compilation album, The Cool Sound of Albert Collins, he quit his paint job and moved to Kansas City in 1966. While there he met his future wife, Gwendolyn, who would become an important motivator for him as well the composer of some of his best-known songs. Among her compositions for Collins were "There's Gotta Be a Change" and "Mastercharge."

Blues music gained in popularity in the late 1960s due to various rock performers such as Jimi Hendrix and Canned Heat stressing the importance of blues as inspiration for their work. A major boost to Collins' career came as the result of interest in him by Bob Hite. Hite recommended Collins to the Imperial, which was affiliated with Canned Heat's label, Liberty/USA. His understated singing style showed up on a recording for the first time on Love Can Be Found Anywhere Even in a Guitar, the first of three albums that he recorded for Imperial. Later he recorded albums for Blue Thumb, then Bill Szymczyk's Tumbleweeed label in Chicago in 1972.

Appearances at the Newport Jazz Festival and at Fillmore West in 1969 gained Collins more exposure and acceptance with young rock audiences. He also appeared at the Montreux Jazz Festival in 1975. While jamming in the 1970s in Seattle, he met and played with Robert Cray. More than a decade later, he teamed up with Cray and and Johnny Copeland on a Grammy Award-winning blues album, Showdown. As late as 1971, when he was 39 years old, Collins found it necessary to work in construction because he couldn't make a sufficient living from his music.

More comfortable playing for small audiences than mass gatherings, Collins nevertheless agreed to perorma in the 1985 Live Aid Concert which was aired to an estimated 1.8 billion viewers. Right into his fifties, he maintained his flamboyant stage presence. Eventually, Collins was well established as the leading blues celebrarity second to guitarist B.B. King.

Awards

W.C. Handy Award, best blues album (Don't Blow Your Cool), 1983; Grammy Award, best blues album (Showdown, with Robert Cray and Johnny Copeland), 1986; W.C. Handy Award, best blues artist of the year, 1989.

[Van]

LV, you didn't answer the question.

Define 'pure blues'. What are its boundaries, and which techniques automatically move something from 'pure blues' to something else? Which techniques are 'allowed', and which aren't?

If you can't answer, go ahead and let your ass answer.

[Lillian Vernon]

Basically the difference between Mississippi Blues and Rock and Roll Hoochie Koo.

Even a lot of SRV's stuff crosses over into more of a rock-a billy vibe.

I guess that's the point, you almost have to keep it simpler to keep it in that realm.

When you start shredding pentatonic scales for 3 straight minutes, you are getting into the blues-rock realm.

I'm still trying to comprehend your assertion that AC had NO CHOPS.

I doubt all your guitar heroes who cite him as an influence would agree.

[Samurai Gangbang]

I'm still cracking the fuck up at "jizzlords"

:D


I just watched that paco/dimeola/mclaughlin shit on you tube and here's the deal:

McLaughlin was kicking ass, big time.
Dimeola is a hack
Paco still wins because of his right hand

basically, since I began studying flamenco techniques, the pick seems cheap all of a sudden because this is MUCH more challenging. MUCH.

Van, if you've ever tried to develop the various right hand techniques involved in flamenco, you'll agree.

out

[Van]

SG, you're never going to get me to disagree that DeLucia specifically and flamenco in general aren't totally badass. Ain't gonna happen. You're preaching to the choir. I have no problem including DeLucia among my handful of the best guitarists I've ever heard.

Yeah, he's got chops. When you're talking about guys in that class (The Friday Night In San Francisco trio, Holdsworth, Morse, Govan) there's really nothing to say. It's strictly preference at that point. Any differences in chops are purely by choice, stretching across genres, and they're minimal.

LV, I won't say AC has NO chops, as in literally none. Of course he can do a couple things really well. In comparison to Bonamassa, Monte Montgomery, Gary Moore or SRV though, much less any of the truly ridiculous guys like DeLucia and DiMeola, he may as hell have none. It's like he can sound out the letter 'A', while they have the vocabulary to write Shakespeare in multiple languages.

Gary Moore could duplicate anything AC could play. He could neatly ghost every note AC could scare up. He could sound just like AC, in real time, playing right alongside him. He could simply double the guy. He did it with B.B., and he could do it with AC.

AC? He couldn't even begin to try and play Gary Moore's originals. There is no way in hell he has the chops to play those solos, or even the chords.

Pretty cut and dried.

[smackaholic]

johnny winters needs to eat a cheeseburger or something.....anything.