Sad Sack Murderer gets MURDER ONE

[Terry in Crapchester]

And I'll go ahead and admit it, not only am I in favor of abortion, but I'm also in favor of infantcide, at least under certain extreme circumstances.

What would those circumstances be?

[Mr T]

What would those circumstances be?

Baby crying to much?

If it wants to live, it will fight back or shut the hell up

[LTS TRN 2]

Well if souls are being bared, and panties being bunched, I'll reveal... the Most Scared I've Ever Been in my life....was when I had to deliver a baby!

..by Cesarean...

and as scary as it was..the real problem as it turned out was that she didn't need a Cesarean at all! She wasn't due for another two months!

Apparently the alarming cries I'd heard going by her door in the hallway of the apartment building where I'd just been jamming with a friend--were her attempts to get us to shut up! I'd thought she was dying or something and I just knocked and came in...and she really looked like she was about to give birth, she was huge and swollen--and when I turned on the lights and saw her standing naked she screamed and fell to the floor and sort of passed out... I really just wanted to help....fuck..

Anyway, the issue of abortion is potentially as divisive as the Free State anti-slavery throwdown of the 1850's--and Roeder just played the part of John Brown--executing political opponents in public, with guns and a moral mandate of Ends Justifying Means. It's the dialogue that counts in countering this fallacy. An understanding of what the other person is trying to say. And then acting accordingly as best we can.

[War Wagon]

Well if souls are being bared, and panties being bunched, I'll reveal... the Most Scared I've Ever Been in my life....was when I had to deliver a baby!

..by Cesarean...

Did you use a ball point pen?

[War Wagon]

If your wife or daughter was raped by a black man and impregnated, would you view it as god's miracle or press ctrl-alt-delete?

The baby killer crowd always trys to use this strawman as justification for mass murder.

Hey, what if it was a black chick raped by a white dude or better yet, a case of incest where the father was black and the mother white?

Why, there must be millions of abortions performed under just such circumstances.

[Derron]

Nice flailing around by everyone here...judgemental mother fucks.

Do what ever you want, but the day you take a knee before God & Jesus you damn well better be prepared to answer the questions.

[Derron]

Well if souls are being bared, and panties being bunched, I'll reveal... the Most Scared I've Ever Been in my life....was when I had to deliver a baby!

..by Cesarean...

Did you use a ball point pen?

Only when he is trying to gouge out his eyeballs to spite his face.

[War Wagon]

...executing political opponents in public, with guns and a moral mandate of Ends Justifying Means. It's the dialogue that counts in countering this fallacy. An understanding of what the other person is trying to say. And then acting accordingly as best we can.

The way to end state sanctioned premeditated mass murder of innocents is obviously not by murder, even if the one being murdered is guilty and has the blood of thousands on his hands.

I don't condone what Roeder did and he should be punished to the fullest extent the law allows. But I respect his motives and like I posted earlier in this thread, he did shut down that death factory in Wichita. Only problem is, one will open to take it's place.

[Van]

Do what ever you want, but the day you take a knee before God & Jesus you damn well better be prepared to answer the questions.

But what if Saint Neuheisel decides to call a time out after you take the knee? You might just decide to throw a bomb.

Tom, that fetus may have a beating heart, but it's still attached to and living parasitically off its host. Until it can survive independently, free of its host, it's still only a potential human.

It's kinda like a slacker, that way.

[Van]

Until it can survive independently, free of its host, it's still only a potential human.

Can an infant survive independently free of its host? Can a toddler? How about a teenager?

Of course they can. They're aren't living within the body of their host, attached by an umbilical cord as a means of sustaining life.

You are making one of the most insipid and extraordinarily stupid arguments that could possibly be made. We're not talking about tapeworms here, idiot.

Yes, we might as well be talking about tapeworms here, you thick-headed cunt. Same as the tapeworm, that fetus cannot survive without its host. The host isn't merely giving it rent money and breakfast, it's giving the fetus its very lifeblood. To compare it to a teenager is beyond pathetic, and it's why your obtuse argument always falls flat on its face.

Fully realized human beings don't live in the bodies of other human beings. Only potential human beings do that...okay, and Perk too.

[War Wagon]

Tom, that fetus may have a beating heart, but it's still attached to and living parasitically off its host. Until it can survive independently, free of its host, it's still only a potential human

So? That's another tried and false strawman argument

I'm sure you have a point you're trying to make with that worthless parasite analogy. Don't bother, it doesn't work as justification for murder.

Van and Jsc, have you ever considered that maybe it's you who are the parasite? You suck up unemployment and health insurance benefits, not to mention bandwidth and oxygen.

While a pregnant woman, otoh, is a beauty to behold. Far from being a parasite, a fetus adds to her glory and her health. The act of childbirth is a formality.

[Derron]

And I'll go ahead and admit it, not only am I in favor of abortion, but I'm also in favor of infantcide, at least under certain extreme circumstances.

Damn good thing that "being stupidcide" has not caught on yet, and we could get your resource wasting ass taken care of.

Surprising attitude for some one who has dodged the Reaper a few times.

[Tom In VA]

You forgot to log in as Dan Vogel.

I don't run trolls.

All I know is there is a gray area.

If someone wants to abort a fetus because it is threatening their own life, then they should have that right.

My whole point is - it is a gray area - why make it any more gray by bullshitting ourselves. Taking a human life is no trivial matter. Sometimes it has to be done.

Take the case of Mrs. JSC. It had to be done. But in my opinion the operation ended a human life.

My position is clear. I've answered enough questions. If you don't understand it - reread my takes.

[Tom In VA]

Disclosure: years ago, my wife had a tubal pregnancy, which could have killed her.

So a human life was terminated so that another one could survive. Not unlike justifiable homicide.

[Van]

once the baby has reached a point where medical science will permit it to survive outside of the womb

...and is doing so, then that is when it really becomes a human being.

[Tom In VA]

It's not a thread yet Todd. We're still feeding it. It won't be a thread until Van says it is.

Until then, it's a potential thread.

[Mr T]

The baby killer crowd always trys to use this strawman as justification for mass murder.

Hey, what if it was a black chick raped by a white dude or better yet, a case of incest where the father was black and the mother white?

Why, there must be millions of abortions performed under just such circumstances.

So if your daughter was raped or a pregnancy was threatening her life, you would say you better not get an abortion?

Somehow I doubt that.

Bad things happen. Abortions are justified in some instances. A lot of people abuse the legalization of abortions but sadly they are necessary.

[Moving Sale]

Can an infant survive independently free of its host? Can a toddler? How about a teenager?

That's right, no infant, toddler or teenager has ever lost its mother and survived.

Fucking dolt.

[smackaholic]

Can an infant survive independently free of its host? Can a toddler? How about a teenager?

That's right, no infant, toddler or teenager has ever lost its mother and survived.

Fucking dolt.

Are you implying that a 7 month fetus has never been delivered from a dead mother and survived? Of course they have. It is a medical fact that half baked feti (well, maybe 5/8 baked) feti have been delivered and survived. This means that aborting such a fetus is pretty much murder when there is a really good chance that, if delivered either vaginally or through C section, that kid would make it.

This is why I believe 3th trimester abortions are murder, plain and simple and ought to be treated that way.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

half baked feti

Have you tried that with ranch?

-DTC

[Tom In VA]

Have you tried that with ranch?

-DTC

Eeeewwwww






Ranch sucks, Chipotle sauce would be the only way to go.

[PSUFAN]

Nudge me into wakefulness when the Foetal Pate is served

[JMak]

Kinda dreadful how some people are willing to suspend common sense. It seems absurd to me to fall back on scientific terms like fetus, embryo, etc. to argue that a human baby is not human at all. Maybe doing so makes it easier to present their arguments endorsing abortion.

[Derron]

I I think every human has an absolute right to life and to end one's life if he or she so chooses. We recognize "do not resuscitate" instructions and other end of life plans. We ought to allow people to off themselves if they no longer want to be alive. I watched my father die of Alzheimer's Disease. It totally stripped him of his dignity. He saw it coming and contemplated suicide. I think he didn't do it because it was against the law. Crazy, I know. But that was how my old man rolled.

I've already told my wife that if I am ever diagnosed with AD, I'm checking out permanently as soon as it is convenient for me to do so. I'm not going to go down that path. And I think cancer patients, people who have lost the will to live etc. ought to be able to go out on their own terms, and not with a bunch of tubes rammed down their throats. My two cents.

As I was laying in the hospital and at home in bed, in weeks of pain and drug induced mental haze in this colitis go, that thought came to me more than once. When you actually get a bit closer to the real thing, your view changes a bit.

Even completely coherent in an advanced stage of disease, I don't think I could do it. Just too much pain for my family to go through, versus just holding it out. I have a DNR, my wife knows where the line is, and is an educated medical professional.

The again, putting my family through an extended illness with no hope of recovery is not very pleasing either...so it is a tough call to make.

[smackaholic]

Surprising attitude for some one who has dodged the Reaper a few times.

My beliefs have been reached in part because of that.

There is nothing to be afraid of in death. It is just a doorway to the next dimension and the next life.



Terry, the extreme circumstances are when a baby is born incompatable with life. And instead of letting it suffer for a few hours or weeks, I think the more humane thing to do is to euthanize it. In so doing, you would be compassionate and reducing pain and suffering. And yes, I think end stage critically ill patients should be able to do the same thing if they want.

Save the doorway to the next dimension bullshit. don't try to sugar coat it. when you're dead, yer fukkin' dead. jabbering on about mystical after life bullshit is a bigger waste than trying to convince someone to change their mind on this subject.

btw, my wife went through the same thing with an ectopic pregnancy. the small little detail you leave out here, is that with an ectopic, the baby is doomed no matter what you do. it is simply a case of whether you wanna sacrifice mom as well.

we are not talking about doomed ectopics or horribly deformed babies that would be sentenced to a short life of misery. we are talking about whether or not a late term baby, often one that is already capable of life independent of it's mother has any rights? too bad the "pro choice" nazis are so dedicated to their cause that they won't even consider protecting a kid minutes away from being born. they pretend they are by saying they are for toothless laws that include "health of the mother" clauses.

the pragmatic side of me says that it would be a big mistake to go back to the pre wade v roe days, but, what we have now is worse.

congress needs to realize that roe v wade is absolute bullshit and do what the have to do, a constitutional amendment, to correct it. something along the lines of protection of any viable fetus would be OK with me. the only clause would be a life of the mother one, not some bullshit "health" of the mother as it has zero teeth. this would allow potential mommies who just don't wanna be bothered, to "fix it" within the first 4 or 5 months of gestation.

as for the "incompatable" babies, that's a tough one. i think that as with those at the other end of life that are in a place where existing just means prolonged horrible suffering, there should be a way to end it, but, i would want to give that kid every benefit of the doubt before deciding to flush it down a sink.

[LTS TRN 2]

the pragmatic side of me says that it would be a big mistake to go back to the pre wade v roe days, but, what we have now is worse.

Huh? Sounds like Tony Blair making twisted excuses for invading Iraq.

Why does no one notice that the "law" against aborting an unborn baby is nothing more than an interpretation of some religious dictum. That is, the fervent and rabid opponents of abortion--who will proudly commit murder for their "law" are really just theo-fascists.

That is, the entire anti-abortion argument is nothing more than a demand for a society governed by religious law.

And religions, as we know, are based on superstition and have no regard or connection to actual laws of nature or rational thought.

So....are you with the Taliban or not? Because this is the actual question. Sure, you're not literally some Pashtun loon in Pakistan, but....

these guys are really no different in their strict religious interpretation of how society should be ordered. And if you're a serious anti-abortion type, you're a lot closer to these folks than you might want to admit.











Go ahead, choose the religious zealots with whom you most relate in your efforts to impose--however passively--a religious design to human society.

[Tom In VA]

And religions, as we know, are based on superstition and have no regard or connection to actual laws of nature or rational thought.

Pure fucking bullshit.

[LTS TRN 2]

And religions, as we know, are based on superstition and have no regard or connection to actual laws of nature or rational thought.

Pure fucking bullshit.

Really, Tom? Perhaps you're conveniently ignoring the hundreds of so-called "miracles" upon which the authenticity of the respective divinity is based--in the Jewish/Christer bible, in the Koran, in the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, or in a thousand unwritten cultures still functioning--or having been plowed over by the various missionaries. In fact it is the claim of suspending natural law which gives a religion any claim of existence. Care to dispute this?

As far as rational thought---are you kidding? Have you really thought about this at all? Sure, "Proverbs" may seem like nuggets of practical commonsense wisdom for getting along in the world, but this is a borrowed set of principles (from the Babylonian culture) and has no strict laws. Perhaps you'll point out the "rational thought" in Leviticus or Deuteronomy. Go ahead, that should be amusing. Explain the "rationality" of Sharia law. As for the Mormon "thought," we're waiting.

Mainstream Mormon insisting his "rationality" is being misunderstood

[LTS TRN 2]

Sorry to shit on your parade, T-Down, but Science has taken over from the religious cowards, and the truth is here--if you can take it.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts01.html

Oh, and by the way...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/0 ... 46179.html

[Derron]

I began to think "if my prayers could be answered, what would be the best thing possible to ask?"

I reasoned that the best possible thing that can happen is that my faith and the faith of others grows stronger. That's the best that can happen. The best to ask.

Exactly....people asking and praying for item specific things are often reaching.

Did I pray and ask for improved health ? Yes I did...IF it was to be God's will. Otherwise He may have other plans for me. Did others pray for me ?? Yes...IF it was to be God's will.

For the atheist and non believer ...go right ahead with your views, you are completely entitled to them. I will keep my views and faith and trust that after I die, there is a better place and situation to go to.

If not, then I guess I will never know the difference.

[smackaholic]

i believe in some sort of white beard wearing old dude up in the clouds about as much as let's turd does, but, that ends our similarlity.

unlike him and his total loathing and ridicule of religion, i actually think it serves a purpose and to be honest, i'm a bit jealous of those that have a strong faith.

it undoubtedly helps some put up with the bullshit life deals out. it causes others to do great things. and yeah, some use it to be arseholes, but, those fukks would be arseholes without it, as best as i can figure.

[LTS TRN 2]

Well of course it "serves a purpose," smackie, but as to just what that purpose is remains a wide question. It certainly functions to provide an order to a society--where folks might otherwise feel there's no accountability for their actions in this brief desperate span of mammalian conniving we call a life. And religious faith similarly provides a properly horrified member of our chimp species some sense of consolation that after all of this suffering some sort of reward is in store. But for the vast majority of human societies from the first cave dwelling communities to the present day completion of the largest building of worship in Britain--and that's a mosque--the function of religion is to control the citizens, period. It's no surprise therefore that the Catholic church is rich beyond measure, and that disgusting fuck stains like Billy Graham types live in giant mansions. As for the some ranting religious judge in Alabama demanding the right to have the Ten Commandments displayed prominently in his courthouse, well this reveals the Mother Of All power grabs. And amazingly, few people even seem to notice. That's called being conditioned.

Make no mistake, I'm not an atheist at all. But spirituality and religion are in fact a contradiction in terms. Religion is in fact the greatest barrier to actual spiritual attenuation. Moreover, there has never been a truly great man or woman in history who was devoutly religious. Certainly not a great scientist--Newton included.

[War Wagon]

Moreover, there has never been a truly great man or woman in history who was devoutly religious. Certainly not a great scientist--Newton included.

Why do you hate Newton?

Or Galileo, or Copernicus, or Kepler....

the list goes on.

[Tom In VA]

Make no mistake, I'm not an atheist at all. But spirituality and religion are in fact a contradiction in terms. Religion is in fact the greatest barrier to actual spiritual attenuation. Moreover, there has never been a truly great man or woman in history who was devoutly religious. Certainly not a great scientist--Newton included.

I understand what you mean and you are kinda sort of right.

Not all religious sustain the spiritual base of their chosen doctrine, some use it for more corporal things such as power, money, sex, etc... But of your average schmucks, I'd say most are - in earnest - in pursuit of spiritual attenuation. Newton ? He certainly spent a lot of time in the bible.

[Dr_Phibes]

the function of religion is to control the citizens, period. It's no surprise therefore that the Catholic church is rich beyond measure

claptrap, it's a system of orginisation - like any other. It's hierarchical, like every other system on earth. Whose fault is it that the Catholic church deals in capital, just like everyone else?
It's an aspiration, you're smarter than that LTS, you've completely opened yourself up.

[Moving Sale]

Can an infant survive independently free of its host? Can a toddler? How about a teenager?

That's right, no infant, toddler or teenager has ever lost its mother and survived.

Fucking dolt.

Are you implying that a 7 month fetus has never been delivered from a dead mother and survived?

Learn to fucking read dolt.

[Goober McTuber]

Whatever you want to call it, Tom, it's creeping me the fuck out. Abortion is one topic which I try and stay out of.

Fuck, man. Just reading through this bitch makes me feel like the guy in Eraserhead peeling away that baby's diaper.

Die already, you drunken pedophile.

[LTS TRN 2]

the function of religion is to control the citizens, period. It's no surprise therefore that the Catholic church is rich beyond measure

claptrap, it's a system of orginisation - like any other. It's hierarchical, like every other system on earth. Whose fault is it that the Catholic church deals in capital, just like everyone else?
It's an aspiration, you're smarter than that LTS, you've completely opened yourself up.

You clown, what are you attempting to sputter?

The hierarchical model which most resembles the Catholic church is of course the old Cosa Nostra. That is, all the local branches shake down the villagers, and then kick the money up to the next level--all the way up to the Capo--or Pope. Yes, idiot, it's hierarchical. So? The point is that like a crime syndicate the Church in fact produces nothing--except a false sense of "security" (they after all are the threat)--while managing a real sense of terror. Get it?

[Dr_Phibes]

You clown, what are you attempting to sputter?

Well, you're not really attacking religion at all, you're just having a go at social privilege and its methods of achievement in a roundabout way. Religion is just a lightning rod for you because you haven't got any real answers yourself. You've grabbed on to the fact that the idyll is too noble for practice to get its head around and you think it's a form of hypocrisy.

aka: IKYABWAI

[War Wagon]

Religion is just a lightning rod for you because you haven't got any real answers yourself.

Becoming a big fan of Phibes. :doh: