Question for Big XII fans

[Terry in Crapchester]

Prelude to my question: At this point I'm convinced that Mike Brey has to go (unfortunately, I don't think the PTB at ND share my sentiments, but that's another story, and a topic for another thread). Numbers don't lie. ND has exactly one NCAA tournament win in the last seven years. That might be acceptable at some schools, but it isn't (or at least, it shouldn't be) at Notre Dame. Brey has the program in better shape than he found it, but he's also had ten years to prove that he's the guy to take the program to the next level, and in that regard, he's failed miserably.

I've been trying to put together my own list of coaches who might be both gettable and an improvement over what we have. One name that keeps coming to the top of the list is Scott Drew. He's done an impressive job in a power conference with a program that doesn't have much basketball tradition to speak of, and which was a mess when he took it over. By most objective standards, the ND job ought to be considered a step up on the totem pole from the Baylor job. And on top of that, Drew is a Northern Indiana native, so even though he has no direct ties to ND, the ND job would be a homecoming of sorts for him.

Problem is that I've seen posters on this board and elsewhere state that they would stay away from him no matter what. I honestly don't know why, just looking for reasons.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

By most objective standards, the ND job ought to be considered a step up on the totem pole from the Baylor job.

Why? Your shit school has exactly 1 FF appearance and zero titles in its "storied" history.

I think moving from Western Kentucky or Vermont to Priest Diddler Central might be a good career move. However. Baylor to ND is a lateral move at best.

[Terry in Crapchester]

By most objective standards, the ND job ought to be considered a step up on the totem pole from the Baylor job.

Why? Your shit school has exactly 1 FF appearance and zero titles in its "storied" history.

I think moving from Western Kentucky or Vermont to Priest Diddler Central might be a good career move. However. Baylor to ND is a lateral move at best.

And how many Final Four appearances does Baylor have?

ND is in the top 10 all-time in both wins and NCAA tournament appearances, two categories that would seem to indicate a program that's been pretty healthy over a long-term period.

And with Drew, like I said, there's also the homecoming aspect of a move from Baylor to ND. His dad is the long-time coach at Valpo (approx. 58 miles from ND per mapquest), and his younger brother was the star player on Valpo's unlikely Sweet 16 run in '98.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

And how many Final Four appearances does Baylor have?

I am glad you asked... twice as many as your shit school with ZERO national titles and ZERO national title game appearances. Any other dumb questions?


Go rape an altar boy, faggot.

[Terry in Crapchester]

And how many Final Four appearances does Baylor have?

I am glad you asked... twice as many as your shit school with ZERO national titles and ZERO national title game appearances. Any other dumb questions?

1948 and 1950? At least ND's Final Four appearance was in my lifetime. And I'm an old fart.

Again, all-time records:

ND: 1629-891-1
Baylor: 1143-1267

One ND coach since 1923 has a losing record at ND. Between 1941 and 1992, one Baylor coach had a winning record.

Still want to call Baylor to ND "a lateral move, at best"?

Go facefuck a Mack truck, moron.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

Still want to call Baylor to ND "a lateral move, at best"?

Of course I do. Any objectively thinking person who's not raping an altar boy will recognize this.

ZERO titles. ZERO national championship game appearances. I'd seriously considering taking a job at Southwest Dakota St over Diddler U. That goes for football as well.

[King Crimson]

Drew has recruited phenomenally at Baylor....but i don't think anyone in the league thinks he's a great (or even good) sidelines coach. go look at recruiting rankings....they've got 5-6 top 100 players on the roster and getting the UM transfer Udoh has really elevated the team as a whole since he can defend (which has always been a problem with Drew's teams). now, since no one can defend in man principles, they play zone with Udoh in the middle. scoring has never been an issue.

if i were an ND fan, not sure Drew would be my first choice. the guy did miss the NCAA last year with a senior team that had some very good players in Curtis Jerrells, Dunn, Carter etc. though, i think BU could surprise some people. they have the talent to be there.

but, bottom line, what he's done at BU after the Bliss episode it pretty remarkable.

[Mr T]

I got to laugh at ND. Even FSU has a NC game appearance.

[Goober McTuber]

Hell, Wisconsin has a title.

[War Wagon]

I've been trying to put together my own list of coaches who might be both gettable and an improvement over what we have. One name that keeps coming to the top of the list is Scott Drew.

Not sure that Scott Drew is all that available or why he'd want to go to Notre Dame... perhaps you should add Mark Turgeon to that list.

[Adelpiero]

No chance

He has a hot bed in tejas to recruit from, and already is getting good talent from the area. Leaving would make no sense, especially to Notre Dame. Big East school or not, it is a lateral move right now.

Notre Dame should look at Butler or Xavier for their next head coach. Drew would be insane to leave Baylor, especially what he has built in his short time there. He continues to get some fo the top talent in tejas, and he'll be tourney bound yearly.

[Goober McTuber]

Xavier's coach ain't going anywhere. He's totally sold on being the Xavier head coach. Interesting watching the Ohio State games at the Bradley Center last weekend. Lotta Xavier fans showed up and they hate OSU for stealing their coach so they booed them non-stop. Marquette (Wisconsin's little brother) was the host school so a lot of their fans showed up too. I sat next to six of them who said they came to boo the Big 10. And they did. Buckeyes didn't get a whole lot of love, but I showed up in my The Ohio State University t-shirt.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

Problem is that I've seen posters on this board and elsewhere state that they would stay away from him no matter what. I honestly don't know why, just looking for reasons.

What's the tally on people saying Drew should stay away from ND because it would not further his career, dipshit? Has anyone agreed with your idiotic stance? Just like potential coaches and student athletes who take a pass on your altar boy diddling institution... I could give two fucks about how many games ND has won. Face it. There's not a lot of shine left on that Golden Dome. It's over.

[Truman]

...Problem is that I've seen posters on this board and elsewhere state that they would stay away from him no matter what. I honestly don't know why, just looking for reasons.

Here's guessing that he just may have an irascible personality that might just rub the alums (read: donors) the wrong way. Dunno.

Regardless, it seems that he's roundly hated by every other coach in the XII. Just know that he was villainized in these parts for pulling his Bears off the floor so that they wouldn't have to witness the love-orgy of past axe-murderers, errr, heroes that passes for pre-game on Phag Allen's video board.

Personally, I've got no issues with Drew. Loved him when he lead Valpo to the Sweet 16, and Baylor has been tough to root against all year with the likes of Tweety Carty, Ekpe Uhdo, and LaceDarius Dunn. And anybody who disses Kansas gets big ups in my book. My opinion? Drew would be a great "get" for the Domers….

[King Crimson]

Regardless, it seems that he's roundly hated by every other coach in the XII

he and Rick Barnes have an ongoing little media spat that's allegedly about dirty recruiting. It's fairly acrimonious.

Drew also does this thing that, while not illegal, is sort of bush league imo. he yells "block out" when an opposing team's player is at the FT line and it's often during the shooter's release. it's one thing for fans to make noise to distract a shooter, but a coach?

[Terry in Crapchester]

I've been trying to put together my own list of coaches who might be both gettable and an improvement over what we have. One name that keeps coming to the top of the list is Scott Drew.

Not sure that Scott Drew is all that available or why he'd want to go to Notre Dame... perhaps you should add Mark Turgeon to that list.

Drew is a Northern Indiana native, and his father and brother are still both involved in the basketball program at Valparaiso, so the ND job would be a homecoming of sorts for him. My best guess is that Turgeon wants the KU job, I can't see him leaving aTm otherwise, at least not to move outside the Big XII.

Notre Dame should look at Butler or Xavier for their next head coach.

In the modern era at least, Xavier has been a sort of cradle of coaches, what with Pete Gillen (who should've succeeded Digger at ND, and would have, if ND had not chased a pipe dream -- Krzyzewski -- and two flavors of the month -- Cremins and Carlesimo -- first. Pete wanted the ND job, but not badly enough to be a rather public fourth choice), Skip Prosser, Thad Motta and Sean Miller, among others. But as Goober alluded, Mack might be different. Unlike the others, he's a product of that basketball program. So he might be the guy to stay there for the long haul.

As for Butler, the only reason their coach would leave for ND is that Butler has pretty much maxed out its basketball potential (unless they join another conference, but the A10 is probably the only realistic option), whereas ND has, at least potentially, a higher upside than that. Of course, the downside to ND's program is considerably lower than where Butler is now, and projects for the foreseeable future.

As for other possible successors, I read on a ND homer board that Oregon may be offering Monty Williams. Monty's a ND alum, and I believe he was formerly an assistant at ND, so that would be worth a shot.

[King Crimson]

My best guess is that Turgeon wants the KU job, I can't see him leaving aTm otherwise, at least not to move outside the Big XII.

what MU fan said about Drew recruiting Texas holds true for Turgeon as well. ATM has a newish arena, money, and Texas HS hoops had become a hotbed of bigtime talent in the last decade. Turg wants the KU job, but Aggieland is not a bad place to be these days. and with the football underachieving the last 6-7 years, that only makes more hoops fans as Ags want a winner.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Problem is that I've seen posters on this board and elsewhere state that they would stay away from him no matter what. I honestly don't know why, just looking for reasons.

What's the tally on people saying Drew should stay away from ND because it would not further his career, dipshit? Has anyone agreed with your idiotic stance?

By my count, two Big XII honks who have no inside information, at least one of whom apparently didn't know that Drew was from Northern Indiana. And you're considering that authoritative?

Take off the anti-ND blinders, son.

Just like potential coaches and student athletes who take a pass on your altar boy diddling institution... I could give two fucks about how many games ND has won. Face it. There's not a lot of shine left on that Golden Dome. It's over.

Swing and a miss.

It's more an issue of priorities among the athletic department than anything else. The current athletic director, and his immediate predecessor, think that it's more important to fully fund schollies for members of the mens' fencing and womens' crew teams than it is to fully fund the sports that really matter. Problem is, of course, that most alums don't give much of a rip about the mens' fencing and womens' crew teams, and most of the ones who do are either alums of those programs themselves or have a child or close family friend on the team.

As I said before, ND ranks tenth all-time in basketball wins. The nine schools ahead of ND (not in exact order, since I'm doing this from memory, plus I have my reasons, explained below, for grouping them the way I did):

Kentucky
Kansas
North Carolina
UCLA
Duke
Syracuse
St. John's
Temple
Princeton

The first six are all elite programs by any reasonably objective standard.

St. John's? In recent years, they've struggled too mightily and for too long to be considered an elite program today. But as recently as ten years ago, maybe less, they would've warranted inclusion in that category.

Temple and Princeton? Not elite programs, due in considerable part to conference alignment (although Temple would've had a chance to make that jump, if not for Villanova's opposition to Big East membership combined with the struggles of their football team in the Big East). But a ton of basketball history at both places.

Not bad company, all in all.

ND was never a truly elite program, and I'm not suggesting that they could be that today. But in the 1970's, they were perhaps one step below that. If the athletic department were ever to get its priorities in order, I see no reason why we couldn't return to that status today.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Regardless, it seems that he's roundly hated by every other coach in the XII

he and Rick Barnes have an ongoing little media spat that's allegedly about dirty recruiting. It's fairly acrimonious.

Drew also does this thing that, while not illegal, is sort of bush league imo. he yells "block out" when an opposing team's player is at the FT line and it's often during the shooter's release. it's one thing for fans to make noise to distract a shooter, but a coach?

The "block out" move is bush league for a coach.

As for a spat with Barnes over alleged dirty recruiting, while I certainly don't want a dirty recruiter coaching our team, at this point, until something is proven, I'd be inclined to give Drew the benefit of the doubt.

[Mook]

Drew has had run-ins with a couple of coaches in the Big 12 over below-board recruiting practices......not illegal but he certainly has engaged in some negative recruiting against several other Big 12 schools. In and of itself it's not a big deal if true, but apparently Drew has spread some falsehoods about a couple of his Big 12 opponents on the recruiting trail. Like I said, not illegal or cheating, but certainly not something to be proud of. He doesn't seem real well-liked by his Big 12 coaching brethren.

He does yell block out when the other team is shooting free throw..........I've heard this myself. Once again, not illegal but it's a bit of an angle-shot.

Finally, I'm not sure if he'd be interested in Notre Dame.....I think his situation at Baylor is about as good as it's going to get. At the end of the day I think he might view the move to South Bend as a move up in the pecking order. Whether it indeed is a move up is open for debate. I think he's done a damn fine job at Baylor and would certainly be worth looking at.

As for pulling his team off the court at Allen Field House, I think it was a smart move and totally over-blown. I was at the game, it wasn't distracting. The atmosphere and video are intimidating. I always enjoy watching other teams and their reaction. Bigger schools pretty much pay it no mind, but some of the smaller schools do watch the thing. Like I said though, I think he was smart to go out into the tunnel.

[Mace]

The playing of the video is an obvious attempt to intimidate an opponent and Drew pulling his team off the court is a good coaching move. Reports here in the paper following the Northern Iowa win over KU said that the Kansas players, Collins in particular, were trash talking at the UNI players when they were stretching during the pre-game. The UNI players didn't respond by getting into a smack battle with Collins and, instead, said to themselves "we're going to shut them up"....and so they did. :)

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

As I said before, ND ranks tenth all-time in basketball wins.

And as I said before, no one gives a fuck about your shit school anymore. Do you really think being 10th in wins is some sort of fucking selling point? Your school, regardless of how many wins it has racked up over the years, has never really been considered a basketball school. Sure... you had a nice ten year run that ended about 30 years ago. What did you net during the Carr/Dantley/Tripucka eras? One Final Four. Big fucking deal. Since then? Nothing. There's not too many teams in the conference with less going for them in hoops right now. What does that make you... about the 12th best team in a 16 team conference. Eat a dick, loser.

[Terry in Crapchester]

As I said before, ND ranks tenth all-time in basketball wins.

And as I said before, no one gives a fuck about your shit school anymore. Do you really think being 10th in wins is some sort of fucking selling point? Your school, regardless of how many wins it has racked up over the years, has never really been considered a basketball school. Sure... you had a nice ten year run that ended about 30 years ago. What did you net during the Carr/Dantley/Tripucka eras? One Final Four. Big fucking deal. Since then? Nothing. There's not too many teams in the conference with less going for them in hoops right now. What does that make you... about the 12th best team in a 16 team conference. Eat a dick, loser.

Seventh in the Big East this year. And ahead of your school. So if my school is shit, what does that make yours?

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

My school is a two time national champion with one of the best coaches of all time at the helm. Furthermore, they've been a top 25 team... most years, for the last 20 years. Any other stupid questions, dumbfuck?


When I posted...

"There's not too many teams in the conference with less going for them in hoops right now. What does that make you"?

...did you seriously think that regurgitating this past year's BE standings is what I was looking for?


Are you seriously intimating that Diddler U is better off than UConn in hoops? You are one dumb motherfucker.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Let's go back to this, shall we?

What does that make you... about the 12th best team in a 16 team conference.

Got any facts to support that? Or is this yet another example of the sort of hair-pulling, "because I said so" style of arguing that seems to be your calling card?

Let's look at facts, shall we? And since the Big East has had its current format for the past five years, let's look at that period of time.

First, rank the conference members by average conference finish over the past five years:

1. Pitt 3.8 (4, 3, 7, 3, 2)
2. Louisville 4.4 (11, 2, 2, 1, 6)
3. West Virginia 5.0 (3, 7, 5, 7, 3)
4. Villanova 5.2 (2, 8, 8, 4, 4)
5t. Georgetown 5.4 (5, 1, 1, 12,
5t. Marquette 5.4 (6, 5, 6, 5, 5)
7t. UConn 6.2 (1, 12, 4, 2, 12)
7t. Syracuse 6.2 (9, 6, 9, 6, 1)
9. Notre Dame 7.0 (12, 4, 3, 9, 7)
10. Seton Hall 10.4 (7, 13, 11, 11, 10)
11. Cincinnati 11.0 (8, 16, 10, 10, 11)
12. Providence 11.8 (14, 10, 12, 8, 15)
13. St. John's 13.2 (15, 11, 14, 13, 13)
14. DePaul 13.4 (13, 9, 13, 16, 16)
15. South Florida 13.6 (16, 14, 15, 14, 9)
16. Rutgers 14.0 (10, 15, 16, 15, 14)

Note the significant drop between #9 and #10. Note also that four teams from the conference (Rutgers, USF, DePaul and St. John's) finished behind ND in all of those five years, and that three other schools (Seton Hall, Cincinnati and Providence) finished behind ND in four of those five years.

Want NCAA tourney appearances over the last five years? ND isn't #12 in that category either.

Marquette, Pitt and Villanova have 5 each.
Georgetown, Louisville and West Virginia have 4 each.
UConn, ND and Syracuse have 3 each.
Seton Hall has one.
No other Big East school has made the NCAA tourney in the last five years.

Total tourney appearances?

1t. Marquette 5 (all NCAA)
1t. Pitt 5 (all NCAA)
1t. Villanova 5 (all NCAA)
4t. Georgetown 5 (1 NIT)
4t. Louisville 5 (1 NIT)
4t. West Virginia 5 (1 NIT)
7t. Notre Dame 5 (2 NIT)
7t. Syracuse 5 (2 NIT)
9. UConn 4 (1 NIT)
10. Seton Hall 2 (1 NCAA)
11. Cincinnati 2 (0 NCAA)
12t. DePaul 1 (NIT)
12t. Providence 1 (NIT)
12t. Rutgers 1 (NIT)
12t. St. John's 1 (NIT)
12t. USF 1 (NIT)

Even NCAA tourney wins, ND's weakest category, doesn't put them at #12:

1. Villanova 10
2. Pitt 8
3t. UConn 7
3t. Georgetown 7
3t. Louisville 7
6. West Virginia 6*
7. Syracuse 4*
8. Marquette 2
9. Notre Dame 1

* Still playing in this year's NCAA tourney

None of the other Big East schools have any NCAA tourney wins over the last five years. Seton Hall was one-and-done in its only appearance.

Sorry for injecting facts into the debate. But I don't even have to do that. See, even you don't believe what you posted, and I can prove it.

If ND truly is the 12th best team in the Big East, then by any objective standard, ND has exceeded expectations during Brey's tenure. If that's the case, then Brey shouldn't be fired. Yet the premise for my initial question was that he should. For all you've found fault with me in this thread, that is the one thing you haven't disagreed with me about.

And as I said before, no one gives a fuck about your shit school anymore.

Yet you've posted what, six times in this thread? Seems like you, at a minimum, do give a shit about ND, albeit in a negative way.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

After yet another long-winded post in which he didn't do himself any favors... again:

We're 9th not 12th. .

So. Your contention is... coaches and student athelets will consider 8 other schools in the same conference before settling for your shit school. Wow, you sure showed me.

Yet you've posted what, six times in this thread? Seems like you, at a minimum, do give a shit about ND, albeit in a negative way.

Wrong. I am fairly certain me saying this:

And as I said before, no one gives a fuck about your shit school anymore.

is nowhere near six. I suggest you go back and read it, and most importantly, try to understand the context this time. Clearly, I was referring to people who may be considering your shit school for a coaching position... or to play basketball for. Not myself. Wow, you are one dumb motherfucker.

Let's not lose sight of the original dispute either. You are clearly confused. How have you demonstrated in this thread that Baylor to ND is not a lateral move at best? Baylor is trending up. In the last 3 years they've seen their 1st NCAA appearance in 39 years, a Big 12 Title Game appearance, they just set a school record for most wins in a season, have a 3 seed, sweet sixteen appearance... and you think the payoff for all of that will be a signing with a shit school that by your own account is the 9th best team in the conference. Are you fucked?

[Terry in Crapchester]

After yet another long-winded post in which he didn't do himself any favors... again:

We're 9th not 12th. .

Pretty big difference in the Big East between 9th and 12th, made even bigger by the rather sizeable drop-off between 9th and 10th.

So. Your contention is... coaches and student athelets will consider 8 other schools in the same conference before settling for your shit school. Wow, you sure showed me.

Uhhh, no. Are you really that stupid?

My contention, which underlies the entire premise of my original post, is that ND's program under Brey is not living up to its potential. Do you really think I'd be calling for his job if we were in the top quartile of the Big East every year?

Yet you've posted what, six times in this thread? Seems like you, at a minimum, do give a shit about ND, albeit in a negative way.

Wrong. I am fairly certain me saying this:

And as I said before, no one gives a fuck about your shit school anymore.

is nowhere near six. I suggest you go back and read it, and most importantly, try to understand the context this time. Clearly, I was referring to people who may be considering your shit school for a coaching position... or to play basketball for. Not myself. Wow, you are one dumb motherfucker.

And I'm fairly certain that I was commenting on the number of posts you've made in this thread, which is now up to seven. But in any event, the fact that you admittedly used the phrase "no one" clearly implies that you intended your comments to be construed more broadly than applying merely to prospective coaches and players. In fact, "no one" implies that you deemed yourself able to speak for the entire universe. Fail.

Let's not lose sight of the original dispute either. You are clearly confused. How have you demonstrated in this thread that Baylor to ND is not a lateral move at best? Baylor is trending up. In the last 3 years they've seen their 1st NCAA appearance in 39 years, a Big 12 Title Game appearance, they just set a school record for most wins in a season, have a 3 seed, sweet sixteen appearance... and you think the payoff for all of that will be a signing with a shit school that by your own account is the 9th best team in the conference. Are you fucked?

No, the original point was my asking for reasons why someone might want to stay away from Drew. I had heard hints of that but honestly didn't know why that was the case.

As for the rest of it, it's certainly not unprecedented. Rick Pitino went from the Knicks to Kentucky at a time when Kentucky was facing extremely stiff NCAA probation. Later, he went from the Celtics to Louisville at a time when Louisville's program was in a bit of a down cycle. Roy Williams went from Kansas to North Carolina at a time when Kansas' program looked to be in much better shape than North Carolina's. Now, I'm not comparing ND's program to Kentucky, North Carolina or even Louisville. But on the flipside of that, Baylor's program isn't exactly comparable to the Knicks, the Celtics or Kansas, either. And while Roy Williams is a North Carolina alum, Scott Drew grew up almost close enough to ND to be in the shadow of the Golden Dome.

And by your own admission, Baylor's in the NCAA tournament for the first time in 39 years. That alone should tell you that it isn't the easiest place in the universe to win in basketball. Granted, the last 30 years haven't exactly been kind to ND's program, but even so, ND still has 13 NCAA tournament appearances and 3 Sweet 16's in that timeframe. Against that backdrop, I'd say it's easier to win at ND, even with all of the impediments (largely of the internal variety) the program faces at the moment. For all we know, given Baylor's success this year, Drew might figure that his stock will never be higher while he's at Baylor than it is now, and he might jump at the opportunity to move elsewhere.

In any event, it's largely a pointless dispute. You'll note that I never said anywhere that Drew would jump at the chance to go to ND. For that matter, I never even said that ND would offer Drew. I was merely speculating as to the availability of an up-and-coming coach, and concluded that Drew, given his current position as well as his background, might at least be willing to listen if ND were to come calling. You certainly haven't proved that he wouldn't. Fwiw, I don't think that ND will fire Brey, at least not this year. Even if his head had been on the chopping block earlier, he probably earned a reprieve by making the NCAA tournament this year. As Shine once said, Brey seems to have a knack for doing just enough to keep his job.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

And by your own admission, Baylor's in the NCAA tournament for the first time in 39 years. That alone should tell you that it isn't the easiest place in the universe to win in basketball. Granted, the last 30 years haven't exactly been kind to ND's program, but even so, ND still has 13 NCAA tournament appearances and 3 Sweet 16's in that timeframe. Against that backdrop, I'd say it's easier to win at ND, even with all of the impediments (largely of the internal variety) the program faces at the moment. For all we know, given Baylor's success this year, Drew might figure that his stock will never be higher while he's at Baylor than it is now, and he might jump at the opportunity to move elsewhere.

In any event, it's largely a pointless dispute. You'll note that I never said anywhere that Drew would jump at the chance to go to ND. For that matter, I never even said that ND would offer Drew. I was merely speculating as to the availability of an up-and-coming coach, and concluded that Drew, given his current position as well as his background, might at least be willing to listen if ND were to come calling. You certainly haven't proved that he wouldn't. Fwiw, I don't think that ND will fire Brey, at least not this year. Even if his head had been on the chopping block earlier, he probably earned a reprieve by making the NCAA tournament this year. As Shine once said, Brey seems to have a knack for doing just enough to keep his job.

Fair enough. Well said. Thanks for your time.