Tony Dungy on Tebow

velocet · Post by **velocet** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:59 am

Killian,

There is a sizable contingent of 'Skins fans who are big time Colt Brennan backers. They'd like to see him get a shot to compete for the starting gig in camp and preseason.

He's been on the roster for 2 years. Had a good first preseason and his second exhibition season was pretty brutal.

There is a raging debate between the "Cult of Colt" and the large group of Jason Campbell fans about Colt.

Cultists point to his big numbers at Hawaii and his one good preseason. And that he fell to being drafted in the 6th round because of injury and that he was projected as a first rounder if he went into the draft as a junior.

Campbell backers point out that his college stats were inflated because there is something wrong with the conference he played in and that June Jones' offense was somehow rigged to make QBs look good. They point to Timmy Chang (never heard of him before) as proof that a Hawaii QB is a charade. They bring up Colt's second preseason as evidence that the NFL is too much for him and that he's regressing.

Since his NFL exposure is so limited, and basically a wash and actually should be thrown out altogether since it's been entirely within the Zorn regime, his college background is still in play in the debate.

May I ask your take on the situation? Thanks in advance!

velocet

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:14 pm

Killian wrote:Brees had pinpoint accuracy in a pass heavy offense with multiple reads while in college. Tebow had accuracy issues in a single read offense. He doesn't know how to do a 3,5 or 7 step drop, struggles with progressions and snaps from center and has never had to read a defense.

Yep, sounds like he should be a first or second round draft pick.

Or Donovan McNabb.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:48 pm

mvscal wrote: Once again the numbers speak for themselves. He sucked for three years. He threw more picks than touchdowns and his completion percentage was below average.

mvscal wrote: What does that have to do with his popgun arm and the easily intercepted floaters he shat out his first three years in the league?

Feel free to mix in some facts with your takes, it typically goes better. His first three years in the league, he was -2 in TD's to INT's. He threw a total of 31 INT's over those three years. Manning had 28 in his rookie year alone. Favre was -2 in TD's to INT's in his first 3 years. Elway was -7.

Brees interceptions had nothing to do with his arm, and had everything to do with being a rookie quarterback. QB's either get it by their 3rd year as a starter, or they never do. So when you refer to the "light going on", it had nothing to do with his mechanics or arm strength. His experience with multiple read offenses and his accuracy finally meshed with the speed of the NFL.

Do you have anything that you can back up with facts, or just stuff that is similar to the rest of the takes you've "shat out"?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:05 pm

velocet wrote:Killian,

There is a sizable contingent of 'Skins fans who are big time Colt Brennan backers. They'd like to see him get a shot to compete for the starting gig in camp and preseason.

He's been on the roster for 2 years. Had a good first preseason and his second exhibition season was pretty brutal.

There is a raging debate between the "Cult of Colt" and the large group of Jason Campbell fans about Colt.

Cultists point to his big numbers at Hawaii and his one good preseason. And that he fell to being drafted in the 6th round because of injury and that he was projected as a first rounder if he went into the draft as a junior.

Campbell backers point out that his college stats were inflated because there is something wrong with the conference he played in and that June Jones' offense was somehow rigged to make QBs look good. They point to Timmy Chang (never heard of him before) as proof that a Hawaii QB is a charade. They bring up Colt's second preseason as evidence that the NFL is too much for him and that he's regressing.

Since his NFL exposure is so limited, and basically a wash and actually should be thrown out altogether since it's been entirely within the Zorn regime, his college background is still in play in the debate.

May I ask your take on the situation? Thanks in advance!

velocet

I didn't get to see too many Hawai'i games, so I'm kind of tainted by the Sugar Bowl when they were curb stomped by Georgia. I'm not all that up on Colt and how he played in the NFL, but if he was putting those numbers up in the 3rd and 4th quarters of pre-season games, I would take them with a huge grain of salt.

The kid came from a highly respected high school in California (I think he was Leinart's HS back-up) and had decent offers and started out at Colorado, so it wasn't like Timmy Chang.

The knocks against are probably the offense he came from and trying to integrate with a more pro style attack, I'm guessing. I wouldn't expect too much from him right now until other areas of the Skins are addressed and you see how he performs against real NFL talent, but in Shannahan's system, I could see him being a serviceable pro.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:10 pm

Mace wrote:Exactly. It's simply a matter of repetitions doing it the right way. It's no different than correcting a swing flaw in baseball. It's not easy to do, but it can be done if the player is willing to put in the work.

I've been working on the yips for 13 years. Still can't correct the coons. "It's not easy to do" is the understatement of the last decade+ for me...

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:39 pm

IndyFrisco wrote: I've been working on the yips for 13 years.

bad news dawg, your putting DOESN'T improve as you get older

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:12 pm

So, mvscal's "argument" is that Tebow is a good, accurate passer because he racked up a 66% completion rate, throwing duck-and-chuck dumps to what were essentially the finest receivers collectively in all of CFB, while playing against the likes of Charleston Southern and a buncha other schools you've never heard of (with The Lord often staying in at garbage time, racking up numbers when even the worst opponents were letting the freshmen have a go)...

And this is as opposed to Drew Brees, whose career % wasn't too far below that (still in the sixties), who was throwing to whatever crappy receivers had to take the Perdon't scholly because Florida wasn't walking through that door any time soon?

By all means mvscAl Davis, tell us more?

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:32 pm

Felix wrote:
IndyFrisco wrote: I've been working on the yips for 13 years.

bad news dawg, your putting DOESN'T improve as you get older

Actually, it has. 13 years ago, my yips affected my putting and chipping. About 9 years ago, I switched to a left handed putting style with a cross handed grip. Basically, the same right handed grip I WAS using but just using a lefty putter instead of a righty. Putting has been fixed. Last year, I switched to a lefty belly putter. Not sure I like it as much. 15 feet and in I am so much better. However, getting within 15 feet from 40-50 feet is a challenge. Long putts are hard to get close for me with the belly putter. I justify using it though because I make so many more 5-10 foot putts than I did before and who really makes 40 footers on a consistent basis anyways?

As for the yips I was referring to after 13 years, it's the chipping yips. I do 3 perfect practice swings when I chip. Step up to the ball. Line up where I want it to land. Bring back the club. Just as I am about to sweep under that ball and loft it onto the green, my left shoulder has an orgasm/spasm/seizure/whatthefuckever and I pull up and coon that bitch over the green like a laser beam. Finally fixed it a bit last year and got back to shooting in the mid to high 70s again. Have gotten out twice this year and I looked retarded again with the wedge first time out. Second time, I spent an hour on the chipping green before I played and shot an 82. Still had a few ugly chips that day.

edit: Oh, and I tried a left handed wedge last year. Gave it a whole month. No dice. Not the same transition as the lefty putter. The putting got fixed almost immediately.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:36 pm

IndyFrisco wrote:who really makes 40 footers on a consistent basis anyways?

4/8/10 is coming, fukkos.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:38 pm

IndyFrisco wrote:who really makes 40 footers on a consistent basis anyways?

If Tim Tebow golfed, he'd hit at least 66.8% of them.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:13 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
IndyFrisco wrote:who really makes 40 footers on a consistent basis anyways?

If Tim Tebow golfed, he'd hit at least 66.8% of them.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:20 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
IndyFrisco wrote:who really makes 40 footers on a consistent basis anyways?

4/8/10 is coming, fukkos.

My pick is the guy who can't drive an Escalade.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:21 pm

BSmack wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:
IndyFrisco wrote:who really makes 40 footers on a consistent basis anyways?

4/8/10 is coming, fukkos.
My pick is the guy who can't drive an Escalade with a divot in his dome.

ftfy...and mine too...for now.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:28 pm

IndyFrisco wrote:
BSmack wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:4/8/10 is coming, fukkos.
My pick is the guy who can't drive an Escalade with a divot in his dome.
ftfy...and mine too...for now.

Of course standard golf forum rules apply. All picks are due and final Monday, April 12th.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:32 pm

BSmack wrote:Of course standard golf forum rules apply. All picks are due and final Monday, April 12th.

Unless of course you're busy, or otherwise unable to post it by the 12, due to work/play/laziness, then later in the week is fine.

Because... say it with me, Golf Forum regulars...

There are no losers in the Golf Forum.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:38 pm

Dinsdale wrote:Unless of course you're busy, or otherwise unable to post it by the 12, due to work/play/Ben Crane like keyboard speed/laziness, then later in the week is fine.

Because... say it with me, Golf Forum regulars...

There are no losers in the Golf Forum.

FTFY. ;)

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:07 pm

I'll go with he who's name shall not be spoken in the golf forum

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:35 pm

Felix wrote:I'll go with he who's name shall not be spoken in the golf forum

Smackaholic?

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:02 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Felix wrote:I'll go with he who's name shall not be spoken in the golf forum
Smackaholic?

if he qualifies....

he's only got a couple of shots left, so lets hope for the best.....

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:48 pm

Felix wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:
Felix wrote:I'll go with he who's name shall not be spoken in the golf forum
Smackaholic?
if he qualifies....

he's only got a couple of shots left, so lets hope for the best.....

Well, at least Van will get it if he reads it.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:11 am

Killian wrote:Brees interceptions had nothing to do with his arm, and

Go fuck yourself, idiot. I watched every game he ever played. He was making the right reads. The ball just wasn't getting there quickly enough. His noodle arm is hardly a new or even controversial opinion.

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:11 am

Dins, swear to god, I nearly posted, "That's okay, Dins, Felix whiffed on it, but I got it. smackie would've sure gotten it too."

Now I wish I had.

velocet · Post by **velocet** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:08 am

Thanks Killian. I'm not into asking around about 'Skins player's college resumes, but the Colt debate is a big deal in 'Skinsland. The Cult of Colt thread currently has over 13,000 replies. That doesn't count all the other threads where the fights erupted as well.

Going in I didn't expect that you've scouted every player on every team in your time following college football. But the thing is, there are a lot of Cultists who basically claim that there was a huge freekin' buzz around Colt when he was at Hawaii... I kinda downplayed their stance in the vague distillation of their position that I presented to you. Your response was quite instructive about all that: if there was all that talk surrounding Colt (like it apparently is with this Tebow guy) I think you'd have indicated as much.

I also left out some of the more fucking retarded things from the debate, like the "6th Round QBs are Destined to Suck" faction of the Campbell fan side. That is a special group. And on that note...

Ucant, you around? I got news for you, pal. Brady is a 6th round pick. That is what he IS. Most of the members of the 6th Round QBs are Destined to Suck are actually willing to concede that Brady may be the lone exception to the Rule. But there is a subgroup who claim that if you put Brady (healty, at his best etc) on the 'Skins of '08 and '09, he would not have done as well as Campbell. Conversely, put Campbell on any of the Patriots Super Bowl Champion teams and he would have done as well and probably better than Brady. For them, it is all about the supporting cast. Brady has had everything go right around him, offensive line, receivers, coaches, while Campbell is basically Superman because he did so much with NO line, receivers who can't run or catch and lame coaches (excepting of course when Sherm Lewis came aboard).

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:26 am

mvscal wrote:
Killian wrote:Brees interceptions had nothing to do with his arm, and
Go fuck yourself, idiot. I watched every game he ever played. He was making the right reads. The ball just wasn't getting there quickly enough. His noodle arm is hardly a new or even controversial opinion.

Hey twat, do you want to quote the rest of my post? You know, the one where I said he got use to the speed of the NFL?

I'll tell you what, I'll give you my phone number and you can call me when you have a take that you can back up with some facts. I'm pretty sure I can keep my ringer on through my meeting tomorrow, and any funerals, weddings and child births in the next decade or so.

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:27 pm

Dinsdale wrote:

Well, at least Van will get it if he reads it.

I lost all of my spreadsheets in the great computer meltdown of 2009

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:24 pm

velocet wrote:Going in I didn't expect that you've scouted every player on every team in your time following college football.

Being Out West, I watched a buncha Hawaii games with Colt (and Timmy Chang, for that matter). Pretty sweet to be a Left Coast CFB fan -- I can usually catch a SEC game starting about 9AM or thereabouts, and sometimes they'll show Hawaii's home games, that start late at night here (Hawaii plays mostly night games)... CFB often finishes up well after midnight if there's an @Hawaii game on.

Anyhoo... Colt was pretty darn good. Had pretty decent timing and rhythm, was reasonable when it came to checking down his multitude of receivers... but therein lies the rub...

He played in the OG Run and Shoot (Mouse Davis, Praise Be Unto Him, and to his U&L desciple Junebug). If a guy is halfway accurate, and can get a good grasp of checkdowns, he puts up insane numbers.

But there's something to be said for an NFL "prospect" who had a knack for learning checkdowns in a 12-receiver set.

Is he the answer for the Skins?

Fuck if I know. Some R&S guys do well, many fail miserably... just like other "system" QBs. I guess if I knew for sure, I'd be sitting at the Combine collecting a paycheck, rather than playing Armchair Scout with the rest of you.

Van · Post by **Van** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:39 am

From everything I hear, isn't the competition boiling down to Jason Campbell vs Rex Grossman, with Colt not even having a shot?

stuckinia · Post by **stuckinia** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:14 am

Van wrote:From everything I hear, isn't the competition boiling down to Jason Campbell vs Rex Grossman, with Colt not even having a shot?

Yup, Poop versus Shit, with Crap not getting a shot.

There may also be a draft pick involved as well. The QB situation in DC is quality.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:27 am

Killian wrote:You know, the one where I said he got use to the speed of the NFL?

Arm strength and throwing motion doesn't "get used to the speed of the NFL," you stupid, brainless fucktard.

Brees worked his ass off to get stronger and learned to throw with his body not with his arm. What he did in college did not work at the professional level. This is not an opinion. It is a statistically verifiable fact.

Tebow has plenty of arm. Now he has to learn to tighten his throwing motion and use his body to get the ball into tighter windows than he was used to in college. This is an adjustment that every college QB has to make. There is no reason to believe that he can't do it. He has the physical tools, the work ethic and the leadership ability to make it happen.

He is a winner and a playmaker. That is the bottom line in the game of football at any level.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:54 am

You have no idea why its a ser window, do you? Nope, because when men start talking about football, you're like tits on a bull.

Tebow is very inacurate no matter what you think or chimp pound into the keyboard. Joey Herrington was a "winner" and a "playmaker". Same with countless other college QB's who didn't do shit in the pros. Those terms are scout speak for "not very good".

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:26 am

I won like crazy in college, dude! I'm a leader, with a badass work ethic. Make me a high draft pick! I'll get all that NFL QB stuff down, swear to god.

Sin,
Tommy Frazier, Eric Crouch, Chris Leak, Andre Ware, Graham Harrell, Chase Daniel, Major Applewhite, Josh Heupel, Jason White and a thousand other guys like Tim Tebow who were never cut out to be an NFL QB.

Killian, christ, dude, this is just painful, watching this utter demolition of mvsbandwagon. I can't believe you're having to argue with a guy who thinks Drew Brees dramatically increased his arm strength after three years in the league, not his ability to make quicker and better reads. Nope, it was all his arm strength and getting more lower body into his throwing motion. That same perfect throwing motion he had at Purdue apparently fell apart whenever mvscal watched him at San Diego, then it became magically delicious again the moment he became a New Orleans Saint.

Like I said, I feel sorry for you, having to argue someone on that level.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:00 am

Van wrote:Drew Brees dramatically increased his arm strength after three years in the league,

That fact is abundantly clear to anyone who watched him over the course of his career in professional football. You didn't and neither did Killian. Don't even try to pretend that you did.

He learned to increase the velocity on his throw by getting his body into it. Tom Brady did the same thing. Neither of them learned to do this in college. It was a different motion that both of them learned to do at the professional level. It was a physical change to the way they played the game.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:02 am

What he dramatically increased was Marty Shottenheimer, by swapping him for Sean Payton.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:05 am

His transformation happened before he went to New Orleans, dumbfuck. Do you even watch pro football? At all?

Do you think the Saints gave 11 million guaranteed to a journeyman backup? Do you think the Chargers would have spent one of the top picks in the draft if they thought Brees was worth a fuck? He was circling the drain after three years in the league.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:23 am

Even playing for Stoneage Shottenheimer he was damn good before his injury - as in, Phillip was never going to see the field - and after his injury he became great, once he got to a system that benefitted his 'massive' increase in arm strength.

The difference in Brees can be found in three things:

1-Regaining his health
2-Being in the league long enough to learn the ropes
3-Swapping the Charger offense for Payton's offense

Any incremental increase in arm strength he may have managed was entirely incidental to those other three things, and he came into the league with good mechanics, which YOU would've known had you ever watched any college football. Coming out of Purdue, he was a far cry from Tebow, who will need to be completely torn apart and rebuilt from the ground up if anyone ever plans to see him become an effective QB in the NFL.

That does not happen to QBs at the NFL level. They may improve some portions of their delivery, but if they throw like Bernie Kosar, they throw like Bernie Kosar. The difference is, Bernie was still an effective passer despite his unorthodox delivery. VY isn't, because he was never really a passer, and neither is Tebow. That sundial-slow delivery of his ain't going anywhere.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:02 pm

mvscal wrote:Tebow has that same work ethic and leadership ability with much better physical gifts than Brees had. The kid is a winner and a grinder and I would weigh that more heavily than any other data points.

All valid points. I don't think anybody is saying Tebow shouldn't be drafted at all. The question is how high a pick would you want to spend? My guess is that someone will pick him in the 2nd round. If Tebow is lucky, it will be a team that has the coaching resources to elevate his game. If not, he's all but done before he starts.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:02 am

Van wrote:Even playing for Stoneage Shottenheimer he was damn good before his injury - as in, Phillip was never going to see the field -

You really don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Brees was a bust. He sucked dogshit with his puny little popgun arm for three years. His career was left for dead. That's why the team drafted Rivers. Brees was never going to be anything more than a journeyman backup.

He never had any problems with the mental aspects of the game such as preparation, reading defenses etc. He was always smart. What he lacked was an arm. What he changed was the way he delivered the ball. He finally learned to step into his throws and use his upper body to drive the ball down the field. Anybody who followed the team and his career noticed that he had significantly improved his range and velocity.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:56 pm

Typically, when someone makes a change like that there are articles talking about changing his mechanics. Care to link any up?

What you fail to understand, you ignorant twat, is that Brees had one bad year, when he got hurt. His arm had little or nothing to do with his interceptions, it was adjusting to the speed of the NFL. Almost all QB's struggle their first year or two as a full time starter. The good ones get it by their third year, just like Brees.

I guess all other QB's changed their mechanics after their first two years.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:10 pm

He was worthless after three years, idiot. I watched all three of them. Why the fuck do you think they spent such a high pick on Rivers if all Brees had to do was "get used to the speed of the game."

Feel free to google his weak arm yourself. I don't need to. I saw three cringe worthy years of it.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:20 pm

You watched him for two years, then, dumbshit. He played one game his first year. In his third full year as a starter, once he was healthy and caught up to the speed of the game, he had a banner year and was NFL comeback player of the year.

Why did the Chargers draft Rivers? Because they're the fucking Chargers. Why did they do half the dumb shit they did.

And the "three cringe worthy years" you saw (if you include his first year where he played one game), had only one year where he threw more INT's than TD's.

As for Brees weak arm, first article from google after searching "Drew Brees scouting report":

ANALYSIS
Positives... Touch passer with the ability to read and diagnose defensive coverages...Confident leader who knows how to take command in the huddle...Very tough and mobile moving around in the pocket...Has a quick setup and is very effective throwing on the move...Throws across his body with great consistency...Hits receivers in stride and improvises his throws in order to make a completion...Puts good zip behind the short and mid-range passes...Shows good judgement and keen field vision...Has a take-charge attitude and is very cool under pressure...Hits receivers in motion with impressive velocity...Has superb pocket presence and uses all of his offensive weapons in order to move the chains...Has solid body mechanics and quickness moving away from center... Elusive scrambler with the body control to avoid the rush.

Negatives... Plays in the spread offense, taking the bulk of his snaps from the shotgun... Tends to side-arm his passes going deep...Lacks accuracy and touch on his long throws... Seems more comfortable in the short/intermediate passing attack...Does not possess the ideal height you look for in a pro passer, though his ability to scan the field helps him compensate in this area...Will improvise and run when the passing lanes are clogged, but tends to run through defenders rather than trying to avoid them to prevent unnecessary punishment.

When you google "Drew Brees changed mechanics" you get one article from the San Diego Union that talks about Brees changing his diet and consulting with a MLB pitching coach about mechanics. No word of him changing them.

So, feel free to fuck off and eject from this thread whenever you want to stop spitting up splinters.