Online poker rigged???

[TheJON]

Okay, let me preface this by saying I'm not looking for an excuse for losing. Don't need one since I actually won a few bucks (more on that later).

So anyways, I've never gotten into the whole online poker thing. I have friends that sit on the phone with each other and play together and I'm sure there's thousands of jackasses just like them. Not only that, but how can we know for sure it's not rigged?

I ask this because I've played poker for probably 5-6 years now and almost exclusively at casinos. But a couple weeks back I opened an account on Poker Stars. Would have deposited more than a couple hundred if not for a wife thinking we need to save for our kids college funds instead of playing cards (which is kinda lame since we don't have kids nor is she pregnant even). But I played on poker stars and got donkey punched. Played for maybe 3 hours and saw quads 3-4 times, 2 straight flushes and god only knows how many Aces and Kings. So I decided that I was gonna pack up and take my business to another site.

So I opened an account on Full Tilt Poker last week. Started with $300 and decided if I build myself an empire with $300....great. If I lose it 5 minutes later.....oh well. I started playing those low-limit sit n gos. They're kinda fun. Can't really win much on them, but that's fine.....it's all about entertainment to me.

But as I'm starting to play, I coulda sworn that more often than not when I saw an all-in the weaker hand was winning. Unless you're really taking stats, you can't know for sure as you forget about when the best hand wins and tend to focus on the bad beats. But still, I was really questioning some things. So I decided to take a tally.

Every time I saw a pre-flop all-in at the table I would tally how many times the best hand held up and how many times it didn't. After a 3-4 days of taking tallies and maybe 8-9 hours of poker I tallied 178 all-ins and the best hand won 70 of them.

After noticing that you'd see a lot of times a hand like 99 would go all-in against a hand like K-8 and lose a lot so after a while I started tallying that. So anytime a pair went up against an over card and an under card. Saw this situation 26 times and saw the pair win just 5 of those.

I just started tallying pairs vs 2 overs and after 19 times I have yet to see the pair win.

I haven't taken any personal stats for myself, but it seems like every time I've gone all-in with the best hand it's held up LESS than when I've gone in with the worst of it. Fortunately, I've actually had a good run and I haven't really taken it very seriously. Just been catching some cards at the right times. But my account is now up close to $800 only playing sit n gos. Haven't played any cash games yet.

I suppose these stats could simply just be a statistical anomoly, but you'd have to convince me of that because this online poker thing just doesn't seem legit. I don't keep stats in casinos but it sure seems a lot closer to the true percentages at a casino than from what I've seen online.

[buckeye_in_sc]

Jon:

Good thread...I have seen more wicked/sick beats online then anywhere else. What you will get is the amount of hands dealt per MINUTE...not hour or 1/2 hour...but per minute and they will tell you that you are bound to see these types of anamolies. In fact so far in the 2008 WSOP I have seen a number of pro's get busted with QQ v KK or hands like the 10/7 v KQ etc...what really floors me is how bad most people play on these sites and they get away with it...some recent hands for me:

JJ with about 1400 in a 6 person SNG with 5 left...guy raises to 400 with blinds at 100/200 I repop all in...he has about 2400 or so...he calls about 1/2 his stack off all in with A9 suited...of course he hits an A on the river. Then proceeds to celebrate and berate me for bad play...um right...

Another hand...I have AK spades...flop comes spade, spade, rag...there was a small raise preflop from the guy to my right...he makes a small bet...I re-raise him all in...he calls with Q2 of spades...of course he catches runner, runner and hits a straight and then berates me for bad play...

So i have seen it and lived it...and not just low level SNG's or Cash Games...I have seen them in the 25 and up SNGs...weird stuff for sure...

I am not sure how people play and make any living off the internet...but they do somehow...

[Adelpiero]

Jon:



I am not sure how people play and make any living off the internet...but they do somehow...

chip dumping, cheating, and teaming up on fresh fish.

i was at a table, playign with $ i won from a freeroll, and it was obvious that half the table were a team.

[TheJON]

This is exactly why I refuse to put more than a few hundred into it. I personally know people that team up together. How on earth could they stop it or prove they're cheating? The only way to prove anything is if they're as dumb as those Absolute Poker idiots that made it ridiculously obvious.

What my buddies do is 2-3 of them will play at the same table and sit on the phone or text each other their exact hands and then set traps for unsuspecting players when one of them has the nuts. It's nearly impossible for them to lose. They're strategy allows them to manipulate a big pot that's difficult for an opponent to get away from because they pot commit them. I've actually watched them do this. Won't ever partake in it because it's dishonest and I can win without cheating (they can't), but seen it in action a 3-4 times.

Buckeye,

You're right about the poor play. What is up with the insane pre-flop raising? Do these players know that cash game poker is not tournament poker and stealing blinds is pointless? Don't get me wrong, I still hate the first position limp but geez......it's okay to take a flop in cash game poker. Do they understand the blinds don't increase!!?

I played in a $2/$4 no-limit game a little bit ago. Started with $200 in chips and just couldn't get anything going. Got a lot of good pre-flop hands but couldn't seem to connect on the flop. Finally got my last $35 or so in with 2 callers and I had 10's but was up against A-7 and K-J and was outdrawn by both of them.......of course! Though hard to complain as I was only about 50% I believe to win, however I'm curious as to why A-7 would call a $35 all-in bet.

[Dinsdale]

One of my buddies... the one who turned me on to online play, is a "massive conspiracy theorist."

Shit cracks me up.

I guess he's about as intelligent as Jon. "It's rigged, but I'll put money in anyway." This statement, by definition, is a KYOA, along with all of the other "it's rigged" variants.


OK, see if you can follow the bouncing ball and sing along...


Full Tilt Poker makes a fucking shitload of money.

Full Tilt has a fairly decent sized software department.

Full Tilt has many ex-employees.

Ex-employees have big mouths, especially when there's money to be made.

One word from an invariably big mouth means Full Tilt does no more business.


Light coming on yet?

McFly?

Is there anyone in there?


Nevermind that pros keep hand logs, logs are avaliable in text form, and the gaming commission does regular audits...


Nah... it's a big giant conspiracy to sucker you for $50.

[TheJON]

Okay, dickhead, what did I say? I said I only put down a few hundred bucks. No big deal. I refuse to give anymore money to something that I do not know for sure is legit. If I win, then I win (and I'm currently up a few hundred bucks, by the way) and if I lose, oh well. Rigged or not, it's still somewhat enjoyable. I'm just saying that it seems a bit fishy and, like I said, I know for a FACT that people cheat online. They play together. Seen it done first hand a few times. Whether or not the software is rigged (you can draw your own conclusions), the fact of the matter is there's a lot of jackasses out there that play in teams to cheat the other players. Now that you cannot deny because, as I said before.......it's a fact.

Like I said, Dins, I've been winning (albeit not massive amounts of money) and I'm on here questioning the legitimacy of online poker. That's all. As I've stated above, I haven't been playing for more than a few weeks, so I'm only basing it on the last few weeks. I've just seen more crazy shit online in 3 weeks than I have playing casino poker for more than 5 years.

[Dinsdale]

Yes, people team play. I have seen this with my own eyes.

And the advantage gained, especially in hold'em, is negligible.

As far as the software being rigged... why thanks, I have drawn my own conclusion...


That conspiracy theorists are fucking idiots with a broken sense of logic.

I've met plenty of them. And after all this time, I'm still waiting on a logical explaination... ANY sort of logic will do... and I've yet to hear one.

[bbqjones]

is being called a donkey part of a frustrated team that cannot beat bbqjones?

or have they seen me myspace page>

[TheJON]

Dins,

I listed my reason for questioning the legitimacy of the software by posting stats that I was taking.

I'd post my most recent tally, but apparently my sheet has been misplaced as it is no longer sitting next to my computer.

i'm not 100% certain on the exact stats but after around 225 pre-flop all-ins I have seen the best hand win maybe 80-85 of those.

It's ridiculous the percentage of times you will see A-K all-in vs a lower ace and see the lower ace win. That's just not realistic.

Like I said, I've played casino poker for 5-6 years and have seen more crazy shit in a few weeks online than I've seen in 5+ years in a casino.

All I'm saying is something really seems fishy. It just does not seem accurate.

[bbqjones]

i was doing play money games this morning and some dude was going all in every hand. not all that unusual as it is fake money. but some broad brought it up mentioning the win %. literally seconds later he was gone and the bitch would not shut up about it. i was wondering why the site or player would have cheats on a play money game, but not as much as the cunt that kept bringing it up.

im not calling you a bitch or a cunt jon, but you are starting to sound like a woman.

sometimes AK vs A7: the lower hand will catch the lower pair and perhaps a straight or god forbid a flush. if youve played omaha (which i imagine we all have) crazy shit happens no matter what is dealt. pre flop and post.

keep doing the statistics though, it makes me laugh.

[TheJON]

A-7 will sometimes beat A-K? Really? Gee, had no fucking idea that happens! God damn, forget my whole argument now. All this time I coulda sworn A-K won 100% of the time.

Let me guess......A-7 should win approximately 25% of the time???? God damn you're smart!!

No, I will not continue to keep stats. I don't actually give a damn.......and I lost my stat sheet and don't care to start a new one. I will always prefer casino poker because of 2 reasons.....I know it's legit and more enjoyable. How the heck people sit there and log hours of online poker is beyond me. I know people that refuse to come out and have a brew on a Friday night because there's this really good $5/$10 game going on Poker Stars.

I'm not sure how I sound whiny by bringing up statistics I have taken. Why in the fuck would I whine about winning $600?? I'm not whining, jackass, all I was doing was mentioning that it seems kinda fishy to me. Why is that so damn hard to understand?

[buckeye_in_sc]

One thing I started doing...dabbling in a few of the lower buy in bigger SNG's...play is ridicously soft...you just have to avoid that one key hand where you either double up or get sucked out on big time...

so I am playing a $2.20 180 man SNG...sitting at about 40k in chips and in 4th out of 5...get dealt QQ UTG with blinds at 4/8k...I shove....get two callers...guy flips up 44 and 10/J...I am like sweet...triple up time...of course 44 flops QUADS...I am thinking this guy put 3/4ths of his chip stack on the line knowing at best he was a coin flip...so I was out in 5th and cashed for like $30 or something...

then another $3.40 45 man...I have QQ...I shove...guy calls with K/9 (I have him covered)...he of course flops a King...how do you even fathom making this call...

again games are soft...but in key spots you have to avoid the donk move...hard to...but it happens...

I guess with all the hands being dealt every minute...it is bound to happen...but holy crap...

[Dinsdale]

again games are soft...but in key spots you have to avoid the donk move...hard to...but it happens...

Which helps explain the number of nasty suckouts.. a lot of dumb people making dumb calls. Odds dictate they hit on an occasion.

Online, I'm Captain Limp'n'Fold. When in doubt, fold. Limits exposure to the outrageous donk suckout call. Usually in a live game, you don't see the moronic calls, unless you're playing with inexperienced/stupid players.

It's the style of play of a large contingent of dumb online players that makes the suckouts more frequent, not due to some fraudulent software of the site.

[TheJON]

Could someone explain to me why in the fuck people online seem to think cash game poker should be played the same as tournament poker?

Do people not understand the real money is to be made on the flop? I laugh my ass off at the idiots that think stealing blinds in cash game poker somehow has value. You can't fucking win money stealing blinds in cash game poker.

People raise on the button EVERY TIME if it's folded to them and then fold if the blinds play back at them. This tells me their intentions were to simply steal the blinds. Why? You can't make money stealing blinds. My strategy is to just play back at them because it's profitable regardless of what hand you hold. Re-raise about 3 x their bet pretty much every time in this situation because 4 out of 5 times they'll fold.

So let's say you're playing a $5/$10 game and they raise the pot ($35) and you come over the top betting $105, they're bound to fold 4 out of 5 because they'll only call if they have a legitimate hand (which they're maybe 20% to have a good enough hand to call a big raise). So 4 times you're going to win $35 for a net amount of $140 profit. So even if you don't flop anything and they take down the pot on that 5th hand you'll net $35. But we all know that occasionally even if you re-raised with a junk hand you'll actually flop something decent and so you can reasonably expect to average more than $35 profit every 5 times you play out this scenario.

But you gotta make these idiots that think cash game and tournament poker are the same pay for trying to steal meaningless blinds.

Personally, in cash game poker, if I have a big hand and am on the button and it's folded to me, I limp. If I raise, I run the risk of getting nothing for a big hand. Sure, I'm also risking allowing that 10-4 offsuit in the big blind to flop 2-pair and snap off my Kings, but with only 2 hands behind me I'll take my chances. I find it to be more profitable in the long run. Besides, there's always the possibility that one of the blinds will see my limp as a weak hand and try and raise and then I can pop him back. Or if I hit my set, he won't see it coming.

Now, in early position, I never limp. Not with any hand. You're asking for trouble if you do that. But in late position if there's no previous callers, I'm just limping. In tournament play, my strategy would be different but I've found in cash games you can get paid off better this way which makes me wonder even more why the online players always have to raise on the button attempting to steal blinds.

[Dinsdale]

Could someone explain to me why in the fuck people online seem to think cash game poker should be played the same as tournament poker?

Because like this phpbb site, online poker sites attract morons like moths to a flame (I think I just KMOA-btw).

That's why.

In ring games, I'm kind of he opposite -- I'll limp like a mofo, especially from early position. Buy a flop if the price is right, and sandbag if I hit. It's a long-term strategy, but if I get on the right table full of idiots (I prefer 6 seat ring games, less positional shenanigans), I can eventually make them pay.


But I don't see a problem with your strategy either, as it's worked fo me as well.


Anyone checked out the new super-turbo S&G's on Full Tilt? Wat an amazing collection of idiots they've come up with. Can usually fold out and get $2.-whatever for 3rd without playing a hand. Amazing what hands some people think are worth throwing the whole stack at.

[TheJON]

Yeah, I accidentally played in a couple of those. Didn't realize they were the super turbo ones. Those aren't real tournaments. 300 chips with the blinds starting at 15/30 and going up about every 3 minutes is lame. I actually won one of them. Got lucky as fuck. Caught a bunch of hands and took down just about the entire table in a matter of about 10 minutes. The other time I think I went out on the 1st hand.

[buckeye_in_sc]

I am still trying to figure out what strategy works I have played every level of SNG, pretty much limit cash up to 2/4...NL up to $.50/$1 and PLO up to $.25/$.50 and I can't find anything to work...

I am a total losing player online...a lot to...i like to play and have a solid game...I prefer limit poker when in Vegas, etc as I like to play a more mathematical game...but what does it take...I get tired of the brutal beats...i have taken breaks...played TAG, LAG, hyper aggressive, passive, etc...nothing works...

I get hands like tonight...AhKh...blinds 15/30 raise to $175 pre flop and get 1 caller...flop comes out KJJ...I bet he calls...we get it all in on the turn...he turns over KJ and I am like you called a 5x BB raise with that...he is like you didn't raise enough...WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT..

I get hands like 55 with a min raise...come back over the top all in guy snap calls with A9...could be easily dominated but he hits A on turn and river...same thing with pocket 6's guy snap calls 1/2 his stack all in with A/10...and hits 10 on turn and river...

honestly what gives...maybe I should give it up and just stick to live poker...

any thoughts? I mean leaks my ass...I am shoving and betting with the best of it...i can post hand histories that would make you puke...

any thoughts would be helpful...

this omaha hand happened while typing this

PokerStars Game #18209642489: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/06/17 - 22:30:27 (ET)
Table 'Irmela III' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Pitt Poke ($19.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Bejamin1 ($25 in chips)
Seat 3: RansomPoker ($13.40 in chips)
Seat 4: ipooallday ($11.35 in chips)
Seat 5: BuckeyeMikeB ($4.35 in chips)
Seat 6: phildes ($31.35 in chips)
Seat 7: isiboo ($28.50 in chips)
Seat 8: Scarface_rip ($10 in chips)
Seat 9: A'arab Zaraq ($22.85 in chips)
BuckeyeMikeB: posts small blind $0.10
phildes: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BuckeyeMikeB [As Th 6c 4h]
isiboo: calls $0.25
Scarface_rip: calls $0.25
A'arab Zaraq: folds
Pitt Poke: calls $0.25
Bejamin1: folds
RansomPoker: folds
ipooallday: folds
BuckeyeMikeB: calls $0.15
phildes: checks
*** FLOP *** [6d 6s Ad]
BuckeyeMikeB: checks
phildes: checks
isiboo: checks
Scarface_rip: checks
Pitt Poke: checks
*** TURN *** [6d 6s Ad] [3d]
BuckeyeMikeB: bets $1.20
phildes: folds
isiboo: calls $1.20
Scarface_rip: calls $1.20
Pitt Poke: folds
*** RIVER *** [6d 6s Ad 3d] [3c]
BuckeyeMikeB: checks
isiboo: checks
Scarface_rip: bets $4.65
BuckeyeMikeB: calls $2.90 and is all-in
isiboo: folds
Uncalled bet ($1.75) returned to Scarface_rip
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Scarface_rip: shows [9c 3h 3s 4d] (four of a kind, Threes)
BuckeyeMikeB: mucks hand
Scarface_rip collected $10.15 from pot
BuckeyeMikeB said, "f ing sick"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10.65 | Rake $0.50
Board [6d 6s Ad 3d 3c]
Seat 1: Pitt Poke folded on the Turn
Seat 2: Bejamin1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: RansomPoker folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: ipooallday (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: BuckeyeMikeB (small blind) mucked [As Th 6c 4h]
Seat 6: phildes (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 7: isiboo folded on the River
Seat 8: Scarface_rip showed [9c 3h 3s 4d] and won ($10.15) with four of a kind, Threes
Seat 9: A'arab Zaraq folded before Flop (didn't bet)

yeah I checked the flop trying to get action...did on the turn and dude hits case THREE...so sick...even if I bet flop dude calls...so what do you do? brutal...ran a flopped house into rivered quads...

[Dinsdale]

What gives, is online sites are rife with idiots.

My strategy, which is occasionally successful, and occasionally leads to asswhoopings, just like everybody else...


You get dipshits calling huge pre-flop raises with KJ o. This appears to be inevitable online. You can't do much about dumbasses calling with crap, which we must take as fact.

My answer to this is to try and avoid overcommitting to a pot.


Like in your first example -- I might have raised the suited slick, if in late position. Otherwise, I'll try to limp. If there's a large raise, especially from a raise-happy player, I'll shove the stack if he raises.

But by limping, even on premium hands, you get to look at the flop. Since as previously mentioned, some douche may well be playing K5 suited, and he probably would have stayed with it, regardless of how much you raise. So now, if the flop comes out K 5 5, and someone now wants to bet like there's no tomorrow, you can lay it the fuck down and wait for a better ride to come along.


I think (just my overpriced $0.02) that the main snag with online poker, is the better, more experienced card players tend to play it like a live game.


It isn't.


Play your cards against the other cards on the table. Don't play against your perceptions of the other players, since you know nothing about them, and some of their previous moves might have been setting you up to think they play a specific way ("buying action" is a hardcore online move, difficult to pull off, and profitable if it's executed).


Unless you've got the dead nuts, don't be afraid to lay down a hand online. I've had better success that way... it's your only countermove to the donks playing their K5 like it's rockets.


Was kinda nice playing in a casino tourney last night, though. You just don't see the bad beats live, because you just don't see too many people hitching their wagon to J 8. Of course, I didn't quite cash, but I came in late as an alternate, and I finished in the top 25% (whoop de doo... I was card dead for a looooong time).


BTW -- when I left, a little old lady, must have been at least 70, was just absolutrely cleaning up. There was some darn good players there for a low buy-in, and she was working them all over. They come in all shapes and sizes, don't they?

[SunCoastSooner]

I don't play on line

[buckeye_in_sc]

Dins:

Interesting...I have tried to do that a good number of times...but you can only be patient for so long...also you can only fold JJ or 99 or something on a low flop so many times...I guess patience is the key...but holy shit...way too many idiots...yes I would agree live I don't see that many beats...

Sun Coast...fucker cuz you live close to casinos...assmunch... :D

[Dinsdale]

also you can only fold JJ or 99 or something on a low flop so many times

I'm not saying to lay down your JJ after a raggy flop. On the contrary, if there's no straight or flush or FH on the board, then bet the hell out of it. What I'm saying (not very well), is that limping when possible gives you more options. It goes against your instinct as a live player, no doubt. But it also safegaurds against some dipshit playing his J 5 suited, and hitting two 5's on the flop.


I'm not saying this is some carved-in-stone strategy, or even the "right" one -- I'm just saying I seem to suffer less bad beats/suckouts/donkalicious beatings if I don't get too many of my chips in without seeing some more cards... because as we all know, it's much tougher to win a pot pre-flop online than it is live, due to the idiot-factor.

Limping to ridiculous levels is the best safegaurd I've found against getting donked-out.


But of course, when short-stacked, the idea of "find two cards you like, and hitch your wagon to them" still applies.


Then again, my amazing run online has come to a rather dramtic, infuriating end, so what the fuck do I know (yeah, I'm in that mode).

[SunCoastSooner]

Dins:

Interesting...I have tried to do that a good number of times...but you can only be patient for so long...also you can only fold JJ or 99 or something on a low flop so many times...I guess patience is the key...but holy shit...way too many idiots...yes I would agree live I don't see that many beats...

Sun Coast...fucker cuz you live close to casinos...assmunch... :D

It's not just casinos. I know where there is a regular live local house game on at least 4 nights a week and The Ebro Dog Track is allowed to gamble that is about 40 minutes away from my place. :D

[Dinsdale]

There's live tournies 7 days a week within a half hour drive of me or so.

[SunCoastSooner]

There's live tournies 7 days a week within a half hour drive of me or so.

WTF are you doing online playing in that case?

[Dinsdale]

WTF are you doing online playing in that case?

Fills a hole in my schedule.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

There's some really good info/discussion in this thread. I guess I'm kinda late to the game. I just started playing online poker a few weeks ago and it's pretty fun, albeit frustrating as hell sometimes. I've had decent success in tournaments and SnG games, but I pretty much blow at ring games. I will have to apply some of the strategies you guys talked about. I was probably guilty of playing it more like a tourney and raising too much pre-flop on good starting hands, only to catch jack shit on the flop.

Overall, I prefer playing tourneys and sit n gos, but I want to get better at ring games just because I like the aspect that you're not committed for any specific period of time. If I have 10-15 minutes to kill, I don't want to get involved in a tourney. Unfortunately, right now, it probably takes me less time than that to burn through my initial buy in in ring games or Rush Poker.

[buckeye_in_sc]

Well Mike...I am playing at Full Tilt again...some mild success but mostly not...

the thing that kills me is the amount of bad beats...but the fact is I don't play CONSISTENTLY enough...

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Yeah man. The bad beats are killer. You learn pretty quickly playing online that it's way better to be lucky than good. I would say the main key to success (for me at least) is staying patient. I have Ace chasing tendencies, so it's hard for me to fold on, say, A8 offsuit, but I'm better off the more conservatively I play. I like to keep the Sklansky/Malmuth chart open in another window for quick reference. If I have the willpower to play only off of that chart, I do fairly well. Here's a link in case you haven't seen it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_hold ... and_groups

[buckeye_in_sc]

One of the most frustrating things for me in in like a 18-45 man SNG...get chip lead...then CARD DEAD...get back some chips...on the bubble or close...CARD DEAD...especially in Big Blind when they are 250/500 and I get like 8x2x and some guy is all in for like 15k...that is a weakness for me is the bubble play if I am average or below in chips...plus I can't seem to outflop anyone when I do shove

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

I think I'm getting better at Rush Poker. Last night it took me a good 45 minutes to burn through my $4 buy-in. I was even up to about $7 at one point. Trying to be more patient, but it's hard. It seems like 95% of the time, it's either a) I get dealt shit, b) I get a good starting hand but the flop is shit, or c) I get a good starting hand and get a good flop, but nobody else wants to play.

My favorite games, if I have the time, are the 90-player knockout tourneys. Pretty good bang for your buck if you can hang around a while.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Just had the best night of my life playing poker, online or otherwise. Won a $3 buy-in 90-man tourney for $72 and followed that up by winning a $10 buy-in 45-man tourney for another $171. I think I'm starting to get the hang of this whole "patience" thing...