88 Went To Mass Today

[poptart]

so that means you worship a god that advocates genocide. and not only that call for genocide, he metes out punishment for leaving even a single woman or child alive rather than exterminating an entire group of people. rather vengeful for a god who later exhorted his people to turn the other people.

What Scripture is this?

[mvscal]

so that means you worship a god that advocates genocide. and not only that call for genocide, he metes out punishment for leaving even a single woman or child alive rather than exterminating an entire group of people. rather vengeful for a god who later exhorted his people to turn the other people.

What Scripture is this?

Seen any Canaanites lately?

[PSUFAN]

The Old and New are at cross purposes.

[mvscal]

Except when they aren't. Then they're kosher.

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

Van,

because of your laughable arrogance. You always want to get all high and mighty, telling us what you know, when you cannot possibly know.

Question: How do you know I do NOT know? Just because you do not, do not speak for the rest of us.

And yes....the arrogance is true. Jesus himself said that not only is he the Son of God, but that He IS god.

Pretty arrogant, yet, true. Just carrying on the message.

I like the use of the word "ilk" though.

I also said that I am a dirty rotten sinner, worthy of nothing. But I Believe. I also Know.

"He who loves his life will lose it, but he that gives his life in My name, will save it.".

I often wonder, when things come to pass, when christians are being put to death, who will be the ones with the knife, guillotine, noose, etc. gladly doing it.

Van...............you are the top of my list.

As you sow, so shall you reap.

[smackaholic]

dear god,

please lock this thread.

[Van]

Van,

because of your laughable arrogance. You always want to get all high and mighty, telling us what you know, when you cannot possibly know.

Question: How do you know I do NOT know?

Are you posting from the Hereafter, or are you still alive? If you're still alive, then no, you do not know. You cannot know. You're a human being. You have no way of knowing about God or anything relating to divinity or spirituality beyond this mere mortal coil.

Just because you do not, do not speak for the rest of us.

I think I will go ahead and speak for the rest of you. You don't know, and neither does any other living human, so quit talking out of your ass as if you do know.

And yes....the arrogance is true.

And it's despicable. You have no reason whatsoever to be arrogant about anything, ever.

Jesus himself said that not only is he the Son of God, but that He IS god.

You don't know that he said that. You've merely read that he said it. You also don't know that he even existed. You've merely read that he existed. You sure as fuck don't know that what he supposedly said is true. A lot of people have claimed to be God over the years, and a lot of other people have had the title bestowed upon them.

Christ possibly had reason to be arrogant. You don't. Know your role, whacked-out asshat.

Pretty arrogant, yet, true. Just carrying on the message.

Pretty arrogant and wildly misguided. You're Roger_the_fucking_Fruit_ Loop, so you have no reason to pop off about anything to anybody. Let Christ speak for himself. If you want to claim that he says he knew, great. You're not wrong there. That is the claim in the Bible. That's as far as your knowledge extends, though, so leave it at that.

I like the use of the word "ilk" though.

That's because you can't spell 'bilk' without it.

I also said that I am a dirty rotten sinner, worthy of nothing. But I Believe.

End of story.

I also Know.

That you're a dirty, rotten sinner who's worthy of nothing? Okay, I'll take your word for it. You may very well know that. You don't know if there is a God, though, nor do you know that Christ is/was divine.

"He who loves his life will lose it, but he that gives his life in My name, will save it."

"He who writes on bathroom walls..."

Quit quoting things other men wrote. It serves no purpose in this discussion.

I often wonder, when things come to pass, when christians are being put to death, who will be the ones with the knife, guillotine, noose, etc. gladly doing it.

mvscal and R-Jack, probably. That is, if they led a just life and proved themselves worthy of reward.

Van...............you are the top of my list.

By this time tomorrow you won't even remember your list, much less be able to find it.

And quit using so many goddamn periods in your ellipses. Three are all you get, plus a period to end a sentence. That goes double for your exclamations. Knock it off, Britney.

As you sow, so shall you reap.

I think Metallica said that too. Christ, you're a sanctimonious bran muffin of meh.

[Tom In VA]

I think Van should have the last word.

Well played thread Van, you've performed brilliantly throughout. I applaud your astute observations and have welcomed them. Thank you.

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

Are you posting from the Hereafter, or are you still alive? If you're still alive, then no, you do not know. You cannot know. You're a human being. You have no way of knowing about God or anything relating to divinity or spirituality beyond this mere mortal coil.

This is the main idea of this thread in a nutshell.

Yes, beleive it or not, there are actual mortal humans, breathing air, eating, loving, etc., that actually do KNOW that God exists.

Again, if you do not believe, and hold me in such contempt, why do you care what I say? If I am such a ...(note, only 3) well hell, choose your epithet or insult, why even take the time to type?

Why do you even care so much?

And Tom, you are too fine of a person to give such..'props' to such an agnost.

I hold fast to my Faith and my God.

Scott

[Tom In VA]

Thanks Roger, I appreciate it, but I'm not "too fine" for anything. Van has assisted me in my spiritual journey. In one of my readings, ironically today, his exposure of my unintended lack of true humility in this thread has shed light on ME. You see, here's what I read.

Going it alone in spiritual matters is dangerous. How many
times have we heard well-intentioned people claim the
guidance of God when it was all too plain that they were
sorely mistaken. Lacking both practice and humility, they
had deluded themselves and were able to justify the most
arrant nonsense on the ground that this was what God had
told them. It is worth noting that people of very high spiritual
development almost always insist on checking with
friends or spiritual advisers the guidance they feel they have
received from God. Surely, then, a novice ought not lay
himself open to the chance of making foolish, perhaps tragic,
blunders in this fashion. While the comment or advice of
others may be by no means infallible, it is likely to be far
more specific than any direct guidance we may receive
while we are still so inexperienced

I bolded the part where I have to accept culpability. Van exposed my error, I can't very well address my error without knowing about it. In short, he informed me of the booger hanging out my nose. Therefore, knowing I have a booger hanging out my nose, I can take the correct action and wipe it off.

For that I'm grateful. I don't have the "spiritual chops" as it were to play the songs some people need/want to hear, it is best left to those with more humility and practice.

Van called me on it and was right.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Yes, beleive it or not, there are actual mortal humans, breathing air, eating, loving, etc., that actually do KNOW that God exists.

Shut the fuck up already and get a job you lazy son of a bitch. You said you're not in a chair, right? Stop milking the teet of the American tax payer so that you can carry on wasting away your irrelevant life doing...what exactly? We don't work hard to keep high functioning mongoloids afloat from week to week.

[Van]

Van has assisted me in my spiritual journey.

Now we're talking. :)

[Smackie Chan]

Yes, beleive it or not, there are actual mortal humans, breathing air, eating, loving, etc., that actually do KNOW that God exists.
...
I hold fast to my Faith

These are contradictory. You either have knowledge or faith, but not both. One is wrong. Care to guess which one? If it were knowledge, it would be science, and there'd be no need for faith.

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

Tom,

Wow. That bold stuff is from a 12 step program. AA to be exact.

Van is, well, just a guy, and subject to sin and error, as are we all.

I really hope this is a troll job.

The Holy Spirit is the one thing agnostics do not get, thus my "knowledge' posts. Don't you believe in Him?

That is how I KNOW. Not think, or believe, KNOW. And I am not alone in any stretch of the populus. Go to a spirit filled church, and tell them what Van has said. Or any Priest, or pastor, etc....

Have you forgotten the power of prayer? God is real. His Son is real. The Spirit is real.

Faith is the power.

Did you forget this?

Mgo,

Why the hatred? Haven't I told my story enough for you? I worked since I was 12. I have lost 1/3rd of the nerves in my legs, 4 spinal surgeries, a knee replacement, and I am getting back what I paid in. I live in pain daily, and amd just happy to be able to cook dinner for my family, and some household chores. According to your logic, all people that are alive and can just do this should die. Like your grandparents, maybe your parents, or anyone that isn't you. My wife is still working, and she hopefully will get back what she has paid in. You should get the same thing, should something happen to you. I hope not, because I live in pain every damn day, and I would not wish what I am living with on anyone, so why that vitriol? I guess I am an easy internet target, but be careful about what you say or wish, cause it might be visited upon you in spades. I hope not, but stop being a dick. And you know who the "teet suckers" are, and I am not one of them. So just calm yourself. Where do you find peace? Because no one knows what tommorrow holds.

Your anger will destroy you one day if you don't stop letting it eat at you.

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

Smackie,

You either have knowledge or faith, but not both.

Where is that written as being the truth? Who told you that? And why can't it be true?

I have knowledge and faith, and yet, here I am. And millions upon millions upon millions, before and now, just like me not only believe, but know. Not weirdos, psychopaths or any other sidelife of humanity, but the historical great thinkers from age to age. You know their names. Again, ask other people other than me if this can happen. Doesn't have to be a church leader, or a politician, or any particular person.

Why is this so hard for some to understand? I remember a lot of what I have been taught and learned, but what knowledge I have is just a fraction of what is needed to grasp the concept of God. But I know this...He exists. His son was here, and died for our sins. His spirit is available to us all. And there were people that watched him Die, saw the empty grave, and said.."Never happened". And because of just supposedly one guy, crucified by Romans, a nobody, the entire history of human history was altered. Out of all the men, and woman, tortured by the Romans in what is now Israel, for hundreds of years, one guys crucifixion changes the planet, affects people throughout the known world, because.......it was all a made up bunch of crap. Right?

Or......everything that Jesus said was true. And He was what He said He was.

Logic and reason leads one to the truth.

Ask him into your heart, and you will know. Not think, but know.

I think this thread is d u n , done.

[Wolfman]

I think this thread is d u n , done.



Dun ??? Was it dun when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor ?

[Tom In VA]

Tom,
Wow. That bold stuff is from a 12 step program. AA to be exact.

Nice catch. No real disputing the efficacy of the statement though. Further, the program is a "spiritual program". Historically patterned off information provided by a doctor at a sanitarium, Dr. Karl Jung, and the "Oxford Groupers".

What the first 100 did was simply removed references to Christ, as it offended Jews and non Christians. The primary principles of leading a spiritual life were then determined to be common among all.

Take a look in the mirror bro, you got a booger hanging out your nose - same as I did.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Haven't I told my story enough for you? I worked since I was 12. I have lost 1/3rd of the nerves in my legs, 4 spinal surgeries, a knee replacement, and I am getting back what I paid in.

Two words: Walmart greeter.

[Smackie Chan]

88 Went To Mass Today

I wish you hadn't now.

[Van]

Van is, well, just a guy, and subject to sin and error, as are we all.

Or so you believe.

[Smackie Chan]

I'm scheduled for a follow-up at Christmas.

A spiritual tune-up & oil change?

I'll share my thoughts about that experience then.

Or you could keep it a personal & private matter. I'm OK with that.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Or you could keep it a personal & private matter.

That doesn't make for very stimulating message boarding. RACK this thread.

[Smackie Chan]

I'll make you a deal. If non one else posts anything about religion at that time, neither will I.

No fair.

[Smackie Chan]

Well....harmless, 'cept for aborting the life of a potential chicken dinner.

There used to be a bar (since burned down) outside of Anchorage called The Bird House that sold hard-boiled eggs and advertised 'em as boneless chicken dinners. The sign said $0.25 each or 3 for $1. Bartender said you'd be surprised how many people thought they were getting a volume discount.

[mvscal]

a routine colonoscopy.

~shiver~

I so enjoyed them as a young boy. The goose-stepping...the leather. It was all so intoxicating.

[poptart]

Regarding Rog's faith and knowledge take, I'll add this - for what it's worth to you.

I've said this many times and it bears repeating, because it is very important and it hits on the fundamental reason why the Jews of Jesus' time whiffed on Him being the Christ.

- The message of Christ is a spiritual message.
- The Bible is centered on the spiritual world.

Jesus, speaking to unbelieving Jews, said ...

John 10:26-28
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

The believer hears something the unbeliever does not.
Spiritually.

He hears the Word and he knows that it is the truth.

And this spiritual reality is a difficult thing to relay to the unbeliever, who is looking for something tangible to pursuade him of a truth.


Jesus, speaking to Jews who did believe in Him, said ...

John 8:31,32
31 If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


Ye shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall make you free.

You take the step of faith to first trust Christ and when you do, the reality of Him is made known to you.
It is verified to you, spiritually, in MANY ways.

Set free from ... what?

Bondage to satan, which all humanity is under.


One will fail utterly and eternally without taking the Christ.
Undoubtedly so.

Don't let those words pass you by.

[Van]

pop, one other thing....

Christ supposedly said that directly to Jews who believed in him. That was two thousand years ago. Christ hasn't said jack to you or Rog. All you two have is a brochure, which you believe tells the truth...even the silly fairy tales. You don't know that it's telling the truth.

Also, Christ referring to you as sheep...uh-huh.

[smackaholic]

somebody needs to create a popetart troll. i'd do it, but, i'm not gifted in the ways of trolling. anybody out there feel free to run with it though.

[poptart]

Christ hasn't said jack to you or Rog.

I understand the take, for sure.

Because I have been both believer and non-believer in my life.

At the time I was a non-believer, I probably drove one of my Christian friends nuts with all the skeptical (to say the least) questions I posed to him.
Basically looking at him like he was WACK.
Making snide little mocking comments, etc.
I did that.

One day I softened my heart and seriously considered the Word.

Is this really true?


It is.

His Sheep do hear His voice, just as the Scripture says.

I can't "prove" that to you, nor will I attempt to.

I'm just here to testify to it.

And again, I've been in both camps - non-believer and believer.

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

Thanks Pop.

And yes, it's a hard thing to consider oneself a sheep.

But, part and parcel of it all. Jesus is The Shepherd.

I am cool with it.

The hard part is dealing with the wolves.

[M Club]

so that means you worship a god that advocates genocide. and not only that call for genocide, he metes out punishment for leaving even a single woman or child alive rather than exterminating an entire group of people. rather vengeful for a god who later exhorted his people to turn the other people.

What Scripture is this?

1 samuel 15. know thyself and your god, right?

[M Club]

He hears the Word and he knows that it is the truth.

kind of like i know my brother hasn't slept with my wife. though curiously, my child looks a lot like him. and we're step-brothers. he's asian. but i know in my heart of hearts.

[poptart]

so that means you worship a god that advocates genocide. and not only that call for genocide, he metes out punishment for leaving even a single woman or child alive rather than exterminating an entire group of people. rather vengeful for a god who later exhorted his people to turn the other people.

What Scripture is this?

1 samuel 15. know thyself and your god, right?

I wanted to know for sure which Scripture you were speaking about so that I was sure I was on the right page with you.

You asked for this kind of post, so read it carefully - if you're really interested in doing something other than mocking the Christian.

First, three points.

1. In MANY places in the Old Testament, God acts in ways a casual reader might think are BRUTALLY OVERWHELMING. He does so fully unapologetically and often making note of the reality that, "I AM the Lord God."

2. From start to finish, the Bible is about God's Covenant and it is about Christ. When reading and understanding it, one should always have these two things in the front of their brain.

3. The basic message:

God is the Creator of everything.
Man was uniquely created by God in His image - as a spiritual and eternal being.
Man, who must live with God, was deceived, sinned, and became spiritually separated from God such that ALL humans, from Adam's seed, have surely died spiritually.
God promised Christ would come - the seed of the woman, not a descendant of Adam - to free man from his spiritual bondage to satan.
Jesus is the Christ.
All who believe and receive Christ LIVE again, spiritually, for all eternity.
Those who have been saved will evangelize the world by the filling of the Holy Spirit.


The Old Testament is all about God preparing the way for the Messiah.
There is much preparation, much prophecy and much "foreshadowing" of Christ and the importance of the blood covenant.
In Genesis 12:1-3, God calls Abraham - and promises that the Messiah would come through his family line - and nothing would stop it.
In Genesis 15, Abraham fails to offer the correct sacrifice to God (he lost hold of "Christ") and God says that in the future, Abraham's people will have to go into captivity in Egypt.*

* note - when people lose hold of Christ, they go right into captivity to satan

Ok, the Israelites (out of whom whom Christ would come) suffered as slaves for 400 years in Egypt.
God finally brought them out (by the painting of the blood on the doorposts (Christ's blood)).
Then as Moses was leading the freed Israel past Egypt and into he wilderness, they were ambushed by Amalek (who began from Esau - who "spit" on God's blessing) who HATED Israel.
Amalek was aware of God's greatness and how He, through multiple miracles, pulled Israel out of Egypt (for the purpose of the future Christ, don't forget).
God struck Amalek down and promised that He would put all rememberance of Amalek far away from the Israelites.
He said that He would have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

Shortly after this incident, God gave the Ten Commandments.
This is how the Commandments begin ...

Exodus 20:1-5
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

There is NO other God.
And don't make idols and worship them or else ... the iniquity WILL be visited unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

Think Amalek hated God?

Think Amalek worshipped idols - even though God was clearly known?

Bad things will happen.

Extermination.

In 1 Samuel 15, God came calling on Amalek again - to wipe 'em out.

Understand, the same will happen to you, M Club, or anyone else who doesn't recognize and acknowledge Christ - because you remain in bondage to satan.

And if you have children, make no mistake, the "spiritual problems" you have will be relayed to them, such that they will suffer through many similar problems which you suffer with.

Of course at any moment you could take Christ and be brought entirely out of it.

Paint the blood.

[M Club]

You asked for this kind of post, so read it carefully - if you're really interested in doing something other than mocking the Christian.

i am interested in something other than mocking the christian for mocking's sake, but this?

1. In MANY places in the Old Testament, God acts in ways a casual reader might think are BRUTALLY OVERWHELMING. He does so fully unapologetically and often making note of the reality that, "I AM the Lord God."

you're right, the casual reader will probably find serial genocide BRUTALLY OVERWHELMING. this squares with peace and love, turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor, etc. how? must make your evangelical mission all the harder having to explain to the skeptical that they should worship a god so jealous he'll visit a poxy on their great-great-great grandchildren if they don't happen to "know" christ is the answer.

2. From start to finish, the Bible is about God's Covenant and it is about Christ. When reading and understanding it, one should always have these two things in the front of their brain.

i get that the ends sometimes justify the means, but really? i wonder how critical you are of islam for employing similar methods to spread the word.

There is NO other God.
And don't make idols and worship them or else ... the iniquity WILL be visited unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

Think Amalek hated God?

Think Amalek worshipped idols - even though God was clearly known?

Bad things will happen.

Extermination.

you've put your foot firmly down on the side of the ultimate solution. you probably scoff at the stupidity of the people who've perpetuated contemporary genocide, like how could they be so foolish as to buy into such transparent propaganda, but you're just as likely to grab a machete and go looking for the nearest tutsi as any of those idiots were.

Understand, the same will happen to you, M Club, or anyone else who doesn't recognize and acknowledge Christ - because you remain in bondage to satan.

And if you have children, make no mistake, the "spiritual problems" you have will be relayed to them, such that they will suffer through many similar problems which you suffer with.

yawn. my children will most likely inherit my personal values, which can be roughly summarized as "don't be a dick." people are nice to me because i'm nice to them. the good life doesn't require the intercession of some blood-thirsty tyrant with a happy trigger finger, you know. if fact, it was my father's own bondage to christ that caused a lot of our family issues growing up, though i suppose you, as most other christians, would attribute that to misinterpretation of the scripture. (family gets along great now that dad and stepmom have stopped going to church 10 years after my siblings and i told rev. so and so to slag off.) then again, maybe any of the issues i have aren't so much my fault as they are my great-great-great grandpa's disbelief, or something.

[smackaholic]

you're right, the casual reader will probably find serial genocide BRUTALLY OVERWHELMING. this squares with peace and love, turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor, etc. how? must make your evangelical mission all the harder having to explain to the skeptical that they should worship a god so jealous he'll visit a poxy on their great-great-great grandchildren if they don't happen to "know" christ is the answer.

you simpleton dolt heathen, it the good cop/bad cop thing. it's been done a million times in the movies.

god-bad cop

jesus-good cop

[poptart]

you're right, the casual reader will probably find serial genocide BRUTALLY OVERWHELMING.

What do you think of the "serial genocide" satan committed?

this squares with peace and love, turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor, etc. how?

God is the Lord over HIS creation.

Will not the Creator do right by His creation?

When God came to earth, did you have any issue with His conduct?

i wonder how critical you are of islam for employing similar methods to spread the word.

What methods are you talking about?

you've put your foot firmly down on the side of the ultimate solution. you probably scoff at the stupidity of the people who've perpetuated contemporary genocide, like how could they be so foolish as to buy into such transparent propaganda, but you're just as likely to grab a machete and go looking for the nearest tutsi as any of those idiots were.

I don't advocate violence, nor did Christ.



About your father's case, he was, from what you say, obviously afflicted.
Being a Christian doesn't necessarily end affliction.
And satan doesn't leave any of us alone until we leave this earth.

I've said before, some Christians are among the strangest people you can meet.

maybe any of the issues i have aren't so much my fault as they are my great-great-great grandpa's disbelief, or something.

Absolutely true.

Adam.

We're all in the same boat - all afflicted.

The affliction manifests itself in many different ways.

[Goober McTuber]

I live in pain daily

As do those of us who read your posts, particularly those of us who do not possess a pill stash comparable to yours.

[M Club]

you're right, the casual reader will probably find serial genocide BRUTALLY OVERWHELMING.

What do you think of the "serial genocide" satan committed?

so this satan of yours is the standard for comparison?

though, are there actually any instances in the bible of satan murdering anyone, let alone facilitating genocide, aside from some delusional eccentrics holding forth about unclean spirits? the only thing i can come up with are job's sons and daughters, and even that was only done with g-d's blessing. comparing god and satan's work in the bible, it stands to reason that instances of large-scale death are probably your god's fault.

this squares with peace and love, turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor, etc. how?

God is the Lord over HIS creation.

Will not the Creator do right by His creation?

When God came to earth, did you have any issue with His conduct?

huh? you make zero sense.

i wonder how critical you are of islam for employing similar methods to spread the word.

What methods are you talking about?

convert or die, asshole.

you've put your foot firmly down on the side of the ultimate solution. you probably scoff at the stupidity of the people who've perpetuated contemporary genocide, like how could they be so foolish as to buy into such transparent propaganda, but you're just as likely to grab a machete and go looking for the nearest tutsi as any of those idiots were.

I don't advocate violence, nor did Christ.

you implicitly advocate violence by walking around 'doing the work of your father,' a deity far too busy killing off people to answer many prayers. jesus is basically kim jong-il.

About your father's case, he was, from what you say, obviously afflicted.

my dad wasn't afflicted. he was trying to run his house like any delusional fuck who spews forth about the peace and love found in a book full of hate. curiously, he's a lot less 'afflicted' now that he's dropped the jesus charade.

[M Club]

When a child born to parents in a remote Amazon jungle tribe or an isolated Native American Indian Tribe that has never heard about Christianity dies (maybe the person who knew about God in their bloodline forgot to tell them or died before he could explain it or whatever), what happens to that child's soul? Since that child never "believed" in God and in fact most likely worshipped other Gods, is that child's soul destined to spend eternity in hell? Why would a God that loves ALL of his children damn so many of them to eternel hell without giving them any chance to believe? I could see that end game for a person like me that heard the Word and found it lacking. But it seems harsh to me that God would punish children. Why does he do this?

shit, man, softballs.

God is the Lord over HIS creation.

Will not the Creator do right by His creation?

that should soothe your curiosity. you're welcome.

[Van]

Seems to me that there's a whole lot of "righting" that God isn't doing by his Children.

What'd the Cubs ever do to God? They have surely had players who prayed to Him. What about Killian? Was Charlie Weis his Great Flood?