Big Ten Expansion Yet Again

[Van]

Who cares whether ND is 'perceived' as a midwestern school? It already is, it always has been, and it always will be. Besides, maintaining their independence and their erroneous belief that they're perceived as a 'national school' hasn't prevented them from being in the toilet anyway.

This whole snitfit about wanting independence is nothing more than an aversion to having to compete on a level playing field. ND simply wants their easy road to scheduling and the BCS. They don't want to play second fiddle, which is what they surely would be if they had to go up against the likes of Ohio St, Michigan, Penn St and Iowa every damn year, including a reduction in the number of cupcakes they could schedule for themselves. They're slightly more amenable to the Big East not because of geography, academic similarities or any other sensible reason; it's strictly about competition. In the Big East they stand a chance of being top dog. In the Big 10...not so much.

The whole thing is shameful.

[buckeye_in_sc]

No offense intended to Terry and Killian...but the arrogance of ND not wanting to join a conference and the loss of a certain prestige factor is actually sickening...

I tend to side with Van...perhaps they don't want to get the shit kicked out of them by OSU like they have the last 3 times they have played, or perhaps they don't want to go up against an OL like Wisconsin that would maul their undersized DL...look guys I grew up a catholic in cleveland, ohio...you either loved ND or hated them...I hated them right up there with Michigan...

I am tired of hearing about alumni donations, tv contracts (sup NBC, how is that deal working out now?), and splitting bowl revenue...it doesn't help you when you don't make a bowl...ND needs to quit stalling and join...or soon enough they will be left out in the cold...they might have to drop Stanford, Army, Pitt, etc from their schedule...they can still keep Navy, SC, and one other...but shit man...join a fucking conference already...

Look most of the ND fans I run across are solid...especially the 2 on this board...but fuck...get with the times...If I am the Big 10 I make the overture and give them x days to answer a simple fucking question...will you join YES or NO...they say no...fuck em...they can go join the Mountain West or WAC...then move onto plan B...

Ok rant over

[Mace]

Joining the Big 10 would be good for ND and the conference, imo...at least financially, and I think Rutgers might be part of plan B for the Big 10 should ND not apply for admission. ND is not ready to compete for a conference title right now but, should they get to that point in the near future under Kelly, it would be a financial windfall for all parties. Remaining an idependent will spell doom for ND and leave them out in the cold while members of the new super conferences compete for national titles. The storied history of Irish football is just that....history....and they need to be looking to the future.

[Van]

Look most of the ND fans I run across are solid...especially the 2 on this board...

:?



What am I? Chopped liver?

-Lax

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Not really.

It's an opinion, counselor.

If a sizeable portion of ND's alumni want to make continued football independence a condition of their donations to ND, or at least some portion thereof, that's their prerogative.

Who said it isn't? If a guy drops out of a world class public university after a quarter of a semester to peddle wind chimes, that too is a prerogative, but that doesn't mean I won't find the act and the reasoning any less pathetic.

This situation isn't like Major League Baseball, in which a fan stops buying season tickets because his favorite team is pocketing its revenue sharing, clearly showing no real effort or desire to win. That kind of financial protest I can understand.

With ND joining the Big Ten, it's about money, but the mindset to win remains intact. To a greater extent though it's also about a forced hand due to the changing landscape of cfb. Yes, it's pathetic as a donating fan to pin that on ND.

It's obvious ND wants to remain independent, not just the fans, but those within the ND program. So if the time comes in which ND does indeed join a conference then I would think it fair to say that the program felt they had little choice but to join. Spreadsheeters got together over long hours and drained coffee pots and determined this was not just the best, but the only real solution when looking at things long term. A reasonable reaction would be to understand, sympathize, and support your program's decision as it obviously being a necessary one since they did everything they could to avoid it for so many years...even if the decision disappoints you. The unreasonable reaction is to cut off your support and your donations as a result of what is an industry-forced business decision especially when your knowledge on the rammifications of such a decision are armchair caliber at best.

The only way to make your voice hurt is to hit them where it hurts, in the pockets.

After ND has already joined? That would accomplish what exactly? They aren't going anywhere at that point.

If conference membership is/becomes necessary, there's probably a stronger sentiment against the Big Ten than would be the case as to other conferences, if only because of the history between ND and the Big Ten.

Jesus, you people act like somebody raped your mothers. It's fucking football, you get that right? Yeah, all this history and bad blood has adversely impacted so many of these douchecaskets lounging in their Lazy Boys on Saturday afternoons, multiple years later. Oh, the OUTRAGE...STILL! And I like how ND is still bleeding bitterness despite 40% of its schedule is Big Ten. Whatever. Get a life, losers.

[Killian]

Who cares whether ND is 'perceived' as a midwestern school? It already is, it always has been, and it always will be. Besides, maintaining their independence and their erroneous belief that they're perceived as a 'national school' hasn't prevented them from being in the toilet anyway.

They're the only school with their own national TV and radio contract. You can "precieve" them as not a national school, but the fact remains that they are still considered that way. Them being in the toilet is completely self inflicted started by a shift to de-emphasize football and three straight shitty coaching hires. Monk Malloy, Blowchamp, Wadsworth, White and the rest of their ilk may have done irreapairable harm to the football program. This is why many precieved this coaching hire to be so important, with the whispers of conference expansion on the horizon. If Notre Dame is winning, they can maintain their independence. If they're not, they will be forced into a conference. Timing may not be on their side this time.

This whole snitfit about wanting independence is nothing more than an aversion to having to compete on a level playing field. ND simply wants their easy road to scheduling and the BCS.

This statement couldn't be further from the truth. ND has never shied away from a difficult schedule, until the leadership mentioned above started to get their claws deeper into the golden goose that is (was?) football. That's why you see ND schedule teams such as LSU, OSU, Texas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, FSU, Washington, USC (annually), UCLA, Georgia Tech, Boston College, West Virginia, etc. In the last 15 years, can any Big 10 Their recent schedule, admittedly, has been an abortion. But to imply that ND wants to schedule their way to the BCS is laughable.

They don't want to play second fiddle, which is what they surely would be if they had to go up against the likes of Ohio St, Michigan, Penn St and Iowa every damn year, including a reduction in the number of cupcakes they could schedule for themselves.

When Notre Dame is well, they don't play second fiddle to anybody. And go ahead and point out the number of "cupcake" teams ND schedules compared to the ones that dot the schedules of the Big 10 teams.

They're slightly more amenable to the Big East not because of geography, academic similarities or any other sensible reason; it's strictly about competition. In the Big East they stand a chance of being top dog. In the Big 10...not so much.

They're more amenable to the Big East because that's where all their other teams play. Of course it would be easier to get to the BCS from the Big East, but it also wouldn't be a cake walk.

The whole thing is shameful.

Sure it is, from your point of view. And your entitled to it. And I'm sure as soon as it makes fiscal sense to join a conference, ND will likely do so. Right now, it doesn't. They still get a BCS share, every year, plus whatever other bowl revenue they earn. If Kelly is the coach seem to think he is, ND won't be hurting for money. And as far as the NBC contract goes, it's still a money maker for both parties. And when ND is winning again, they will get more from that as well.
I have no idea why other fans get their tits in a wringer over ND being in a conference. It doesn't hurt them in the slightest. And just because you think they fit in the Big 10, doesn't mean they do. ND fans and admins have a long memory of how they were treated when they wanted to join the conference. The Big 10 took their ball and went home. Now, when the Big 10 "needs" Notre Dame, and it appears that ND "needs" the Big 10, they expect ND to jump right away. It still hasn't been proven why ND "needs" the Big 10.

[Killian]

And I like how ND is still bleeding bitterness despite 40% of its schedule is Big Ten. Whatever. Get a life, losers.

Link?

ND's 2009 schedule:

Sept. 5 NEVADA
Sept. 12 at Michigan
Sept. 19 MICHIGAN STATE
Sept. 26 at Purdue
Oct. 3 WASHINGTON
Oct. 10 Open Date
Oct. 17 USC
Oct. 24 BOSTON COLLEGE
Oct. 31 vs. Washington State (at San Antonio, Texas)
Nov. 7 NAVY
Nov. 14 at Pittsburgh
Nov. 21 UCONN
Nov. 28 at Stanford

25% Big 10, 33% Pac 10, 25% Big East, 16% Other

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

It was hyperbole. Though I'm not sure how the Big Ten and Big East represent equally on your breakdown when there was one more Big Ten team. I'm guessing you lumped BC in the Big East.

[Killian]

Force of habit.

[Van]

The only way to make your voice hurt ( ) is to hit them where it hurts, in the pockets.

After ND has already joined? That would accomplish what exactly? They aren't going anywhere at that point.

Excellent point. The time to make your voice heard is before the decision is made. Once it's been made and they've joined, you're only cutting off your nose to spite your face if you persist in trying to punish them.

[Killian]

Or the big money people told ND "make the move, lose the money". That would just be the follow through.

[Van]

Who cares whether ND is 'perceived' as a midwestern school? It already is, it always has been, and it always will be. Besides, maintaining their independence and their erroneous belief that they're perceived as a 'national school' hasn't prevented them from being in the toilet anyway.

They're the only school with their own national TV and radio contract. You can "precieve" them as not a national school, but the fact remains that they are still considered that way.

In terms of recruiting, which is the only place that matters, they're considered a midwestern school.

These days, most of the big programs are "national" in that it's not difficult to watch USC, Texas, Ohio St or Bama nearly every week on TV, regardless of where one lives. Yes, ND has their own network - though if ND stays in the toilet it's doubtful that NBC will stay on board when the next contract comes up - but any recruit they approach is well aware that South Bend is in cold, boring, milquetoast Indiana. No matter how it's spun, Ja'Whirl is still aware that ND is a chilly, upper midwestern bitch of a place.

Them being in the toilet is completely self inflicted started by a shift to de-emphasize football and three straight shitty coaching hires. Monk Malloy, Blowchamp, Wadsworth, White and the rest of their ilk may have done irreapairable harm to the football program. This is why many precieved this coaching hire to be so important, with the whispers of conference expansion on the horizon. If Notre Dame is winning, they can maintain their independence. If they're not, they will be forced into a conference. Timing may not be on their side this time.

Completely agree.

This whole snitfit about wanting independence is nothing more than an aversion to having to compete on a level playing field. ND simply wants their easy road to scheduling and the BCS.

This statement couldn't be further from the truth. ND has never shied away from a difficult schedule, until the leadership mentioned above started to get their claws deeper into the golden goose that is (was?) football.

No, it flat out is the truth. The fact that it didn't used to be that way doesn't change the fact that it's now the case. ND is scheduling lighter and lighter, and they're banking on a soft schedule, their sweetheart deal with the BCS and the fact that they don't have to win a BCS conference in order to get them into a plum BCS bowl game. Joining the Big 10 puts paid to their easy ride. Suddenly they have to beat out at least one good team every year to win their conference, and they also lose most of their ability to pad their W-L record with creampuffs. If they join the Big 10, they only have two games per year to schedule since the USC and Navy games aren't going anywhere.

That's why you see ND schedule teams such as LSU, OSU, Texas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, FSU, Washington, USC (annually), UCLA, Georgia Tech, Boston College, West Virginia, etc. In the last 15 years, can any Big 10 Their recent schedule, admittedly, has been an abortion. But to imply that ND wants to schedule their way to the BCS is laughable.

It's reality now, though, and that's all that matters for the purposes of this discussion. The way things are these days in BTPCF, ND knows they'll never be able to load up on heavyweights and still make it to the BCS. What, you think it's a coincidence that their recent schedule-makers have gone the SEC route?

They don't want to play second fiddle, which is what they surely would be if they had to go up against the likes of Ohio St, Michigan, Penn St and Iowa every damn year, including a reduction in the number of cupcakes they could schedule for themselves.

When Notre Dame is well, they don't play second fiddle to anybody.

But they aren't well, and they haven't been for a very long time. When was the last time an ND team would've won the Big 10?

And go ahead and point out the number of "cupcake" teams ND schedules compared to the ones that dot the schedules of the Big 10 teams.

Yes, they're fairly similar, except that with the exception of the USC game ND can choose to literally schedule themselves into a 10-2 record while Iowa can't. If ND joins the Big 10, they will be forced to replace some of those Air Force and Nevada games with the likes of roadies to Columbus, Happy Valley and Iowa City. In the long run, their schedule becomes more difficult, which is exactly what they need if they're ever to become ND again. The way they're going about it now, nobody would even care all that much if they went 9-3 or 10-2, not when they keep losing the only tough games on their schedule.

They're more amenable to the Big East because that's where all their other teams play. Of course it would be easier to get to the BCS from the Big East, but it also wouldn't be a cake walk.

It would be as close to a cake walk as they could manufacture, short of staying independent and scheduling themselves into a 10-2 record. Joining the Big 10 would mean that they have to legitimately earn their way into a visit to Pasadena or Miami.

The whole thing is shameful.

Sure it is, from your point of view.

Fortunately for ND, I'm not alone in having that view. There are enough of us out there who think enough of ND that they won't be able to skate forever. Economic realities and the changing landscape of college football will force ND to get with the times. Maybe their destiny is to go the way of Princeton or Army, but right now all they're doing is forestalling the next step in whatever destiny holds for them.

It won't be long before that little island on which they've stranded themselves will no longer be worth a visit by the real players in the sport.

And your entitled to it. And I'm sure as soon as it makes fiscal sense to join a conference, ND will likely do so. Right now, it doesn't. They still get a BCS share, every year, plus whatever other bowl revenue they earn. If Kelly is the coach seem to think he is, ND won't be hurting for money. And as far as the NBC contract goes, it's still a money maker for both parties. And when ND is winning again, they will get more from that as well.
I have no idea why other fans get their tits in a wringer over ND being in a conference. It doesn't hurt them in the slightest. And just because you think they fit in the Big 10, doesn't mean they do. ND fans and admins have a long memory of how they were treated when they wanted to join the conference. The Big 10 took their ball and went home. Now, when the Big 10 "needs" Notre Dame, and it appears that ND "needs" the Big 10, they expect ND to jump right away. It still hasn't been proven why ND "needs" the Big 10.

Like Mgo pointed out, this perceived slight by the Big 10 is mostly a self-serving facade used by ND to justify their avoidance of sacking up and making it official. If they were that pissed off at the Big 10, they wouldn't continue to schedule so many games every year against Big 10 teams.

[FLW Buckeye]

Like Mgo pointed out, this perceived slight by the Big 10 is mostly a self-serving facade used by ND to justify their avoidance of sacking up and making it official. If they were that pissed off at the Big 10, they wouldn't continue to schedule so many games every year against Big 10 teams, and yet listen to Domer fans bitch about why the Big 10 teams won't schedule them in October or November.

FTFY.

[Van]

Strong point.

[Terry in Crapchester]

By joining the Big Ten, unless the conference goes to 16 and brings a sizeable portion of the Big East as well, we become pigeonholed as a midwestern school.

You are a midwestern school.

Who cares whether ND is 'perceived' as a midwestern school? It already is, it always has been, and it always will be.

ND is a national school that happens to be in the midwest. That's more than a semantical difference.

http://www.nd.edu/aboutnd/profile/students/

Notre Dame is one of a handful of truly international universities, with a student body drawn from all 50 states and 100 countries.

. . .

Geographic distribution:
42 percent Midwest, 21 Northeast, 12 West, 11 Southeast, 10 Southwest, and 4 international

58% of ND's student body comes from outside the midwest. With the exception of Penn State and possibly Northwestern, no current member of the Big Ten could make that claim.

In terms of recruiting, which is the only place that matters, they're considered a midwestern school.

Nice backpedal, but even in that limited context, you're wrong.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/teams/nnx/roster

Yeah, I know there's a difference of opinion on this board as to what exactly comprises the midwest, but by my count that's 26/90 from the midwest.

[Van]

Terry, I didn't say their recruits are all from the midwest. I said their recruits all know ND is a midwestern program.

Your other points matter not a whit. ND is a midwestern school. Their student affiliation isn't going to change just because their football team joined a conference. We're talking about BTPCF, remember?

[Terry in Crapchester]

Terry, I didn't say their recruits are all from the midwest. I said their recruits all know ND is a midwestern program.

Your other points matter not a whit. ND is a midwestern school.

Now you're just being stupid and stubborn. That's not you, or at least it shouldn't be.

But I'll play along. Since you're insisting that ND is a midwestern school and/or a midwestern program, answer these questions:

1. Why, then, does ND have a national television contract?

2. Why is the Big Ten even interested in ND? After all, we're pretty much all in agreement here that what's driving Big Ten expansion is a desire to expand the footprint of the BTN and . If there truly is little or no interest in ND's program beyond the South Bend area and its neighboring vicinity, what would ND bring to the table?

3. It's been remarked here on more than one occasion that ND's fanbase does a very good job showing up for road and bowl games. It's also been remarked that what ND does can't really be described as "travelling" to those games. Why do you think that is? Ever been to a ND-USC game at the Mausoleum? Back during the Tollner era, you'd see just as many ND fans there as 'SC fans. That didn't change until USC started winning.

No matter what ESPN tells you, ND's fanbase extends considerably beyond South Bend and its immediate vicinity.

Their student affiliation isn't going to change just because their football team joined a conference.

Immediately? Probably not. But if ND were to join the Big Ten, over time, that undoubtedly would shrink the geographic area of ND's fanbase. Which, in turn, would shrink the geographic area of ND's student body. The change wouldn't even be perceptible at first, but it definitely would be noticeable after about 20-25 years of ND playing the overwhelming majority, if not all, of its games in the midwest. Some students initially become interested in a school because they became fans of that school's football team. This board alone provides ample evidence of that. Maybe that's not the best reason for selecting a school, but you'd have to be completely oblivious to the real world to assert that a BTPCF program doesn't have a hand in recruiting non-athletes as well.

We're talking about BTPCF, remember?

I certainly do. I also remember that when I was a kid, there were members of my peer group who were fans of, among others, Ohio State, Michigan, Alabama, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, USC and UCLA. Guess what? In this area, all of those fanbases have pretty much dried up since then. About the only BTPCF teams that have a fanbase of any appreciable size in this area today are Penn State, Syracuse and ND.

BTPCF has become a much more regional sport today than it was when I was a kid, and this has happened in spite of the fact that BTPCF is much more readily available on TV today than it was when I was a kid. ND, pretty much alone, has managed to buck that trend. And ND's independence has been a significant reason for that.

[Terry in Crapchester]

No offense intended to Terry and Killian...but the arrogance of ND not wanting to join a conference and the loss of a certain prestige factor is actually sickening...

And no offense to you, buckeye, but the Big Ten's selling point to the likes of UConn, Rutgers, Syracuse, Maryland, Missouri and Nebraska goes something along the lines of "Our conference is better than your conference." Not to mention that they apparently want a cover charge from ND for the honor of being invited to kiss the Big Ten's ring.

When the Big Ten talks of ND's arrogance, why is it that I immediately start to think of a pot, a kettle and the color black?

[buckeye_in_sc]

Terry none taken...you're right it goes both ways...what is amounts to is a money grab on one side (Big 10 to have CCG) and a stubborness of old and worn out arrogance on the other side that ND football is actually somewhat relevant...

I call it how I see it as do you...nothing wrong with that...that is not meant to demeen the ND fans, or Big 10 supporters...but that is how I see it...

[Killian]

These days, most of the big programs are "national" in that it's not difficult to watch USC, Texas, Ohio St or Bama nearly every week on TV, regardless of where one lives. Yes, ND has their own network - though if ND stays in the toilet it's doubtful that NBC will stay on board when the next contract comes up - but any recruit they approach is well aware that South Bend is in cold, boring, milquetoast Indiana. No matter how it's spun, Ja'Whirl is still aware that ND is a chilly, upper midwestern bitch of a place.

And ask any 17 year old kid where those schools are, and it says it right in their name. Notre Dame? Half those kids have no idea where Notre Dame is, but they know about them. "Ja'Whirl" typically has no fucking idea where ND is located, but he sees them on TV every week. And more importantly, Ja'Whirl's mama can see her son for free, every week. NBC has stayed with ND for a long period of time, and it doesn't hurt that Dick Ebersol is an ND grad. I highly doubt that contract is going away, unless one side really pisses off the other.

No, it flat out is the truth. The fact that it didn't used to be that way doesn't change the fact that it's now the case. ND is scheduling lighter and lighter, and they're banking on a soft schedule, their sweetheart deal with the BCS and the fact that they don't have to win a BCS conference in order to get them into a plum BCS bowl game. Joining the Big 10 puts paid to their easy ride. Suddenly they have to beat out at least one good team every year to win their conference, and they also lose most of their ability to pad their W-L record with creampuffs. If they join the Big 10, they only have two games per year to schedule since the USC and Navy games aren't going anywhere.

One year does not set a precident. One of the first things Swarbrick did when he came on board was get rid of the stupid "barnstorming" idea that Kevin White came up with. He has been in talks to try to add schools like OU and Alabama. This coming schedule was more a result of Kevin White and his failure as an AD, than Swarbrick. The Tulsa game is the result of getting BYU to change their schedule in 2004 so ND had a game before UofM (ditto the Nevada game last year). WMU was a last minute add on because White took too long and was trying to set up 1 and dones with other teams, instead of scheduling home and homes. Swarbrick is trying to break the 8-4 (or 7-4-1) mold that White's money whoring ass wanted so badly.

It's reality now, though, and that's all that matters for the purposes of this discussion. The way things are these days in BTPCF, ND knows they'll never be able to load up on heavyweights and still make it to the BCS. What, you think it's a coincidence that their recent schedule-makers have gone the SEC route?

See above.

But they aren't well, and they haven't been for a very long time.

As I've said to JON, I look at things from where ND should be, not where they are. Again, if Kelly is the coach some seem to think he is, they will be well quicker than thought possible.

Yes, they're fairly similar, except that with the exception of the USC game ND can choose to literally schedule themselves into a 10-2 record while Iowa can't. If ND joins the Big 10, they will be forced to replace some of those Air Force and Nevada games with the likes of roadies to Columbus, Happy Valley and Iowa City. In the long run, their schedule becomes more difficult, which is exactly what they need if they're ever to become ND again. The way they're going about it now, nobody would even care all that much if they went 9-3 or 10-2, not when they keep losing the only tough games on their schedule.

You're right their roadies have been against pussy teams. North Carolina, MSU, Purdue, USC, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Boston College, UCLA, Penn State, Washington and Michigan. That's just the last three years. Those games you're throwing out there that they would have to lose, are the supposed cupcake games. Those would stay. The roadies to the east coast, west coast, U&L and down south is what they would lose. They would be come stuck in the Big 10 footprint, and would become just another midwestern school.

It would be as close to a cake walk as they could manufacture, short of staying independent and scheduling themselves into a 10-2 record. Joining the Big 10 would mean that they have to legitimately earn their way into a visit to Pasadena or Miami.

Again, go through the past schedules and point out the guaranteed 10-2 record. I conceed that the 2010 schedule is awful, but that is an exception, not the rule.

Fortunately for ND, I'm not alone in having that view. There are enough of us out there who think enough of ND that they won't be able to skate forever. Economic realities and the changing landscape of college football will force ND to get with the times. Maybe their destiny is to go the way of Princeton or Army, but right now all they're doing is forestalling the next step in whatever destiny holds for them.

It won't be long before that little island on which they've stranded themselves will no longer be worth a visit by the real players in the sport.

Pure conjecture at this point. Do you really think if they pass on the Big 10, that they couldn't hook on with another conference, if the super conference really comes into play?

Like Mgo pointed out, this perceived slight by the Big 10 is mostly a self-serving facade used by ND to justify their avoidance of sacking up and making it official. If they were that pissed off at the Big 10, they wouldn't continue to schedule so many games every year against Big 10 teams.

They schedule three games against Big 10 teams each year, with an occasional exception. Purdue (in state rivalry), MSU (long history between the two schools, including ND helping MSU into the Big 10) and Michigan. The Michigan series didn't start back up on an annual basis until 1978, about 60 years after Fritz Chrisler took his ball and went home. It took the ND AD a lot of convincing to get that done. The other games against Big 10 teams have been 2 year contracts or a one year fill in. ND wasn't pissed at the Big 10, they were pissed at UofM. So they didn't play for 60 years. Their is no avoidance of "sacking up" except for in your mind.

[FLW Buckeye]

Not to mention that they apparently want a cover charge from ND for the honor of being invited to kiss the Big Ten's ring.

How about providing a solid link besides some fan blog or a coach talking out his ass about this cover charge? I've seen this mentioned more in this forum than anywhere else, but yet haven't seen any fees mentioned except exit fees for Big 12 and Big East teams leaving their conferences in the mainstream media. Thanks.

[Van]

Since you're insisting that ND is a midwestern school and/or a midwestern program, answer these questions:

1. Why, then, does ND have a national television contract?

Because they have a football team that's popular nationally despite being a midwestern program.

2. Why is the Big Ten even interested in ND?

Because they're a prominent football program located in the midwest. They're a natural fit. Notice that they're not going after Boise St or Miami?

If there truly is little or no interest in ND's program beyond the South Bend area and its neighboring vicinity, what would ND bring to the table?

Who said there is little or no interest in ND's program beyond South Bend and its neighboring vicinity? I sure didn't, so don't try to put words in my mouth. All I said was that they're a midwestern program, which they are, and that recruits from across the nation know that ND is a midwestern program, which they do.

Guess what? Ohio St is popular across the nation too, and they're a midwestern program. Texas is popular in a lot of places outside of the southwestern U.S., yet nobody is under any illusions that they're not a southwestern program.

3. It's been remarked here on more than one occasion that ND's fanbase does a very good job showing up for road and bowl games. It's also been remarked that what ND does can't really be described as "travelling" to those games. Why do you think that is? Ever been to a ND-USC game at the Mausoleum? Back during the Tollner era, you'd see just as many ND fans there as 'SC fans. That didn't change until USC started winning.

Hyperbole. Regardless, so what? ND is still a midwestern football program.

No matter what ESPN tells you, ND's fanbase extends considerably beyond South Bend and its immediate vicinity.

Whiny martyr much? ESPN makes no such claims. Your little "victim complex" regarding ESPN is becoming laughable. ESPN extends ND FAR more love (and coverage) than they deserve, and they constantly drum up the lore of the Irish.

How much more do you plan on moving the goalposts here, anyway? None of your diversionary points refute the obvious fact: ND is a midwestern school with a midwestern program, and that isn't going to change if their football team joins a conference.

Their student affiliation isn't going to change just because their football team joined a conference.

Immediately? Probably not. But if ND were to join the Big Ten, over time, that undoubtedly would shrink the geographic area of ND's fanbase. Which, in turn, would shrink the geographic area of ND's student body. The change wouldn't even be perceptible at first, but it definitely would be noticeable after about 20-25 years of ND playing the overwhelming majority, if not all, of its games in the midwest. Some students initially become interested in a school because they became fans of that school's football team. This board alone provides ample evidence of that. Maybe that's not the best reason for selecting a school, but you'd have to be completely oblivious to the real world to assert that a BTPCF program doesn't have a hand in recruiting non-athletes as well.

ND already plays the overwhelming majority of its games in the midwest, so nothing would change. ND typically ventures outside of the midwest to play California schools, Navy and B.C., and those games aren't going anywhere, especially the USC and Navy games.

Their occasional games against the North Carolinas of the world are nonissues. Besides, they could still schedule those games with their two open slots each year.

Nothing would change. You'd play the same basic games you play now, only you'd have less latitude to schedule cupcakes. Despite all of your "midwestern" protests you're wringing your hands and making a big stink over nothing. You just don't want to join the Big 10. Period.

We're talking about BTPCF, remember?

I certainly do. I also remember that when I was a kid, there were members of my peer group who were fans of, among others, Ohio State, Michigan, Alabama, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, USC and UCLA. Guess what? In this area, all of those fanbases have pretty much dried up since then.

Why would that be? None of those schools changed locations or conferences, other than the SWC joining the Big XII, which did nothing to diminish the popularity of Texas.

Bottom line, your anecdotal evidence means nothing. Those fanbases didn't go anywhere. Those programs all still have fans everywhere, same as they always have.

About the only BTPCF teams that have a fanbase of any appreciable size in this area today are Penn State, Syracuse and ND.

So? Those are also two schools that are somewhat local to the area, and you view ND the same way Vito views Texas, whereby he swears he sees more Texas gear all across the country than local gear.

Terry sees large ND fanbases everywhere? Imagine that. Regardless, even if that's true, again...so what? That's not going to change just because their football team joins a conference. ND's popularity as a program is going to live or die based on their success, and nothing else. If they stay in the toilet, they're going to see their fanbase diminish. If they return to glory, it won't matter that it occured as an independent or as a member of the Big 10, their fans will be there in droves.

All your handwringing will never change this fact.

BTPCF has become a much more regional sport today than it was when I was a kid, and this has happened in spite of the fact that BTPCF is much more readily available on TV today than it was when I was a kid. ND, pretty much alone, has managed to buck that trend. And ND's independence has been a significant reason for that.

You're 100% incorrect. With the advent of ESPN and the inundation of college football on our TVs, BTPCF has become a much LESS regional sport than it was when you were a kid. When you were a kid, you NEVER got to see Okie St if you lived in upstate New York. Now you can watch them nearly every week if you want to, and you almost can't help but see Florida and USC play half their games.

You've never been more wrong on any point than you are on this one. BTPCF is much more of a national, nonregional sport than it ever was. Your own program should be all the evidence of this you should ever need. When you were a kid, they didn't have a national TV contract.

[Van]

No offense intended to Terry and Killian...but the arrogance of ND not wanting to join a conference and the loss of a certain prestige factor is actually sickening...

And no offense to you, buckeye, but the Big Ten's selling point to the likes of UConn, Rutgers, Syracuse, Maryland, Missouri and Nebraska goes something along the lines of "Our conference is better than your conference." Not to mention that they apparently want a cover charge from ND for the honor of being invited to kiss the Big Ten's ring.

When the Big Ten talks of ND's arrogance, why is it that I immediately start to think of a pot, a kettle and the color black?

Who cares? The Big 10 is correct. They are better than the Big East, ACC or Big XII, especially where it matters most: money. They sure as hell have earned the right to demand a cover charge for entry into their club.

The fact that ND thinks they deserve a sweetheart deal that Penn St didn't or Nebraska doesn't, yep, that really is sickening. ND is horseshit these days. They should be glad that the Big 10 even still wants them since all ND has been doing for far too long is resting on their laurels.

[Killian]

Since you're insisting that ND is a midwestern school and/or a midwestern program, answer these questions:

1. Why, then, does ND have a national television contract?

Because they have a football team that's popular nationally despite being a midwestern program.

Semantics much, Van? Jesus Christ. This is really weak and you know it.

2. Why is the Big Ten even interested in ND?

Because they're a prominent football program located in the midwest. They're a natural fit. Notice that they're not going after Boise St or Miami?

Nope, but they went after Texas, and now Rutgers. Not exactly in the midwest.

The fact that ND thinks they deserve a sweetheart deal that Penn St didn't or Nebraska doesn't, yep, that really is sickening. ND is horseshit these days. They should be glad that the Big 10 even still wants them since all ND has been doing for far too long is resting on their laurels.

Fact, huh? What is Notre Dame demanding? You don't know what the fuck, if anything, ND is demanding. Even while "resting on their laurels", ND has still managed to be a middle of the rode Big 10 team. And that's during a period that is historically the worst in ND's history.

If ND should be so lucky that the Big 10 wants them, why doesn't the Big 10 just piss in their face and take three other teams? Because in order to pull this super conference shit off, the Big 10 needs ND more than ND needs the Big 10.

[Van]

Killian, I hope you're correct that ND's recent shitty scheduling is just a blip on the page, and that it won't become a permanent SEC-style trend. As you well know, I also hope ND does return to glory. As a USC fan, it's in my best interests to see ND become a diamond on the schedule, not a blot. Besides, I admire ND, and I always have. I want them to do well. I'll root for them and Penn St all day long before I'll root for goldtoof programs.

That's why I want them to join the Big 10. Avoiding the tough fight either by staying independent or cherry picking some watered down Big East isn't going to help them return to power; doing so will simply insure that it never happens. Nobody is going to take them seriously because they won some scab league, anymore than people take Cincy or Boise St seriously. There will always be a "yeah, but..." attached to their success.

If ND wants to rejoin the big boys, they have to play and beat the big boys to win a conference championship. That's the reality of today's game, and with the advent of these super-conferences it's only going to become more true in the coming years. ND will be left out in the cold if they don't get with the times.

Oh, and this...

You're right their roadies have been against pussy teams. North Carolina, MSU, Purdue, USC, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Boston College, UCLA, Penn State, Washington and Michigan.

They would still have to play five of those games if they join the Big 10. They would also still be able to play those other six teams with their open slots. The difference is they wouldn't be able to load up their schedule with so many games against the service academies, San Diego St and Nevada. They would have to play eight conference games, hoping that in any given year their conference schedule is littered with doormats. Then it would remain to be seen whether they'd choose to make their OOC schedule consist of USC and three cupcakes, which would likely be the case.

The biggest difference is their road to the BCS would become much more difficult. That's what makes the Big East such an attractive proposition for their football program if maintaining their independence ceases to be feasible. Cherry picking the Big East, or rarely winning the Big 10? Hmmm? Tough call.

Not really, huh?

[buckeye_in_sc]

Why wouldn't the Big 10 want ND...I mean both sides have their issues, and or pros/cons. ND is a brand...the Big 10 would like to add that "brand" to the OSU, Michigan, PSU "brand" the big boys...what's wrong with that? What's wrong with wanting a school that could have natural in conference rivals of Purdue (say play every year), maybe have a nice rivalry with say OSU (play every other year or something)...I mean what is wrong with that? Nothing period...

Honestly I could care less...I just want the Big 10 to add the one more team to get to 12 and get the CCG...this way they make money...have the extra game on the same weekend as the others, etc...

If ND doesn't want to join, like I said fuck em...plain and simple...much like ND can say to the Big 10 fuck off...so be it...

and of course I think the ND guys Terry, Killian and LAX are solid guys, posters, etc and would have a brew with them any time...but that doesn't mean I got to like their school or their school wanting to maintain their independence

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

The change wouldn't even be perceptible at first, but it definitely would be noticeable after about 20-25 years of ND playing the overwhelming majority, if not all, of its games in the midwest.

Dude, you played 10 games in 2009 in the midwest. Plus @ Pitt, which is damn close to midwest territory. Do you not consider this currently to be an "overwhelming majority?"

[Killian]

That's why I want them to join the Big 10. Avoiding the tough fight either by staying independent or cherry picking some watered down Big East isn't going to help them return to power; doing so will simply insure that it never happens. Nobody is going to take them seriously because they won some scab league, anymore than people take Cincy or Boise St seriously. There will always be a "yeah, but..." attached to their success.

How are they avoiding the "tough fight"? Again, outside of their 2010 schedule, how is their schedule any different than a Big 10 team? Where would Boston College, Pitt and Stanford finish in the Big 10?

If ND wants to rejoin the big boys, they have to play and beat the big boys to win a conference championship. That's the reality of today's game, and with the advent of these super-conferences it's only going to become more true in the coming years. ND will be left out in the cold if they don't get with the times.

No, they don't. They need to win the games on their schedule, end of story. For all that think the NCAA is moving towards super conferences, there are just as many who think this whole thing is a bluff. It was rumored when the Big East lost BC, VaTech and Miami. Didn't happen. And if the first domino falls and a super conference forms, ND will be able to hook up with some other new super conference. Why play their hand before it's forced?

Oh, and this...

You're right their roadies have been against pussy teams. North Carolina, MSU, Purdue, USC, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Boston College, UCLA, Penn State, Washington and Michigan.

They would still have to play five of those games if they join the Big 10. They would also still be able to play those other six teams with their open slots. The difference is they wouldn't be able to load up their schedule with so many games against the service academies, San Diego St and Nevada. They would have to play eight conference games, hoping that in any given year their conference schedule is littered with doormats. Then it would remain to be seen whether they'd choose to make their OOC schedule consist of USC and three cupcakes, which would likely be the case.

The biggest difference is their road to the BCS would become much more difficult. That's what makes the Big East such an attractive proposition for their football program if maintaining their independence ceases to be feasible. Cherry picking the Big East, or rarely winning the Big 10? Hmmm? Tough call.

Not really, huh?

They would "have" to play four. Would they keep USC? I have no idea. I would like to think they would, but with when those games are typically played, I don't think it's a certain.

Load up on the service academy's and SDSU's of the world? Why does ND get shit for the cupcake teams they play, yet no other school hears anything unless it's 1-AA? That's a fair double standard to have. You have yet to pull up any of ND's schedules and tell me where there are 10 guaranteed wins, like you've alluded to in multiple posts. That fact is, they're not there.

[Van]

Killian, you didn't seriously just say that only ND gets ragged on for scheduling cupcakes...and not just D1-AA cupcakes. Tell me I didn't read that, especially in a post addressed to me, of all people.

Yeah, this board in general and yours truly in particular tend to rag on teams for scheduling cupcakes. I'm pretty sure you're well aware of that.

[Killian]

So why do you constantly bring it up witn ND? Every team has their cupcakes, yet you constantly reference the weaker teams on ND's schedule.

I'm still waiting to see ND's guaranteed 10-2 record, year in and year out.

[Terry in Crapchester]

The biggest difference is their road to the BCS would become much more difficult. That's what makes the Big East such an attractive proposition for their football program if maintaining their independence ceases to be feasible. Cherry picking the Big East, or rarely winning the Big 10? Hmmm? Tough call.

How about we go with some facts rather than conjecture? You know, like an actual SOS ranking?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt09.htm

Sagarin had ND's SOS ranking at 37. Not exactly Murderer's Row, granted, but then again, not quite so horrendous as one might have concluded from your posts. Now, let's take a look at the Big Ten . . .

Minnesota 26
Iowa 41
Michigan State 47
Illinois 48
Ohio State 50
Purdue 57
Indiana 63
Wisconsin 64
Michigan 72
Penn State 73
Northwestern 80

So, ND's SOS, even in a weak year, was higher-ranked than 10 of 11 Big Ten schools? Hmmmm . . .

Wondering where your justification for the idea that ND's SOS would automatically improve by joining the Big Ten comes from, other than "because I said so."

And fwiw, here are the Big East rankings . . .

Louisville 25
West Virginia 31
Connecticut 34
Syracuse 36
Pittsburgh 40
Cincinnati 44
South Florida 59
Rutgers 83

[buckeye_in_sc]

And Terry you know that NCAA that pesky organization that also keeps stats...has this...

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2009/Internet/ ... s_cumm.pdf

Notre Dame is 50th...while 5 Big 10 teams were ahead of them...so there are more than just Sagarin...

[MuchoBulls]

Thanks for that link Buckeye. I thought 59 was a bit low for us.

[Terry in Crapchester]

And Terry you know that NCAA that pesky organization that also keeps stats...has this...

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2009/Internet/ ... s_cumm.pdf

Notre Dame is 50th...while 5 Big 10 teams were ahead of them...so there are more than just Sagarin...

One thing I noticed based on the methodology is that the NCAA doesn't include opponents' opponents in its SOS computations. I believe Sagarin does, giving 75% weight to opponents' SOS and 25% weight to opponents' opponents' SOS.

Of course, once you get to opponents' opponents, most of the BCS has at least some impact on ND's SOS. From last year, that would have included the entire Big Ten, Big East and Pac-10, as well as a sizeable percentage of the ACC.

In any event, the NCAA rankings also prove my larger point -- that being in the Big 10 wouldn't necessarily have had a significant upward impact on our SOS last season.

[Van]

So why do you constantly bring it up witn ND?

Ummm...because that's who we're talking about at the moment?

Believe me, when we're talking about the Meatgrinder or the schedule Texas faced last year, I talk about it far more than I ever mention it in regards to ND. I'm well aware that for a long time ND scheduled very aggressively, which is just one of the reasons I've always admired them.

I'm still waiting to see ND's guaranteed 10-2 record, year in and year out.

I said they could schedule themselves into such a record if they remain an independent; I didn't say they've been doing it, though last year they sure tried.

[Van]

Jesus fucking Christ, Terry, you're not going to try and argue that winning the Big East would be as difficult as winning the Big 10, are you...especially year in, year out?

Fuck your randomly selected SOS rankings for a given year. You know full well that winning a championship in a sixteen-team conference that includes teams like Ohio St, Penn St, Michigan, Nebraska and Iowa would prove to be a much more difficult task than winning the Big Least.

It's not even close, so quit with these desperate reaches.

[Killian]

I said they could schedule themselves into such a record if they remain an independent; I didn't say they've been doing it, though last year they sure tried.

They haven't gone that route yet, and don't appear to be doing so anytime in the near future. So how did they try to schedule a 10-2 last year? Go through that schedule and look at it and tell me the 10 games they were guaranteed to win at the beginning of the season. I stated that with good coaching and everything breaking their way, there was no reason to go worse than 10-2.

Maybe USC should sack up and join a different conference. Their schedule was ranked behind Notre Dame.

[Van]

If ND would ever get their shit together, it sure would help USC's SOS.

See how that works?

[Terry in Crapchester]

Jesus fucking Christ, Terry, you're not going to try and argue that winning the Big East would be as difficult as winning the Big 10, are you...especially year in, year out?

No, I was arguing with your rather ridiculous supposition that joining the Big Ten automatically would improve ND's SOS.

Fuck your randomly selected SOS rankings for a given year.

Randomly selected? I used the most recent year for which we have data. But if you want to go back further than that . . .

2008 . . . http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt08.htm

Michigan State 41
Michigan 44
Ohio State 46
Purdue 49
Wisconsin 52
Penn State 55
Illinois 61
Iowa 63
Northwestern 70
Minnesota 79
Indiana 83

ND was 50.

2007 . . . http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt07.htm

Michigan 37
Illinois 42
Michigan State 52
Ohio State 53
Minnesota 54
Wisconsin 57
Penn State 63
Northwestern 70
Purdue 71
Iowa 75
Indiana 82

ND came in at 24.

Face it, Van, even in recent years when ND has pussed out in terms of its schedule, ND's SOS has compared favorably with that of the majority of the Big Ten. There simply is no basis in fact for your assertion that ND's SOS would improve dramatically by joining the Big Ten.

You know full well that winning a championship in a sixteen-team conference that includes teams like Ohio St, Penn St, Michigan, Nebraska and Iowa would prove to be a much more difficult task than winning the Big Least.

It's not even close, so quit with these desperate reaches.

First of all, Nebraska isn't a member of the Big Ten yet. Second, you're moving the goalposts once again.

But since you seem bent on comparing the Big Ten to other conferences, from ND's standpoint . . .

While it's certainly not about popularity contests, I think one relevant consideration is the manner in which ND would be looked upon by other conference members.

As the 12th team in a 12-team Big Ten, we're the uppity newcomer who doesn't know our place. In a 16-team Big Ten, it becomes less about being the Michigan-and-Ohio-State Show, so I suppose we fare a little better, particularly if some Big East teams come along for the ride. But there's still a lot of animosity between ND and the conference from an historical standpoint.

In the ACC as presently constituted, we'd be a northern, Catholic, inland school in a predominantly southern, non-Catholic, coastal conference. In short, we'd be like the eccentric uncle that nobody really wants around, but everyone tolerates because he's filthy rich.

In the Big East, timing could be an issue, of course. But if we were to join now, we'd potentially be a gamechanger as to Big Ten expansion plans and their impact on the Big East. In short, we'd be the savior of the conference.

Which of those roles would you want? Doesn't seem to be that tough a decision to me.

[Van]

No doubt. You'd want the path of least resistance. Joining the Big East gives you an easy road to the BCS, especially if it's gutted even further by the Big 10 snagging some of its teams. Joining the Big 10 means you'll have no idea when you may ever win your conference.

Like I already said...

That's what makes the Big East such an attractive proposition for their football program if maintaining their independence ceases to be feasible. Cherry picking the Big East, or rarely winning the Big 10? Hmmm? Tough call.

Not really, huh?