So what is going to happen to the Big XII in 2011?

[Killian]

They're also pretty respectable in hockey, too.

While true, as you know they aren't in the Big East in Hockey. So if Technical Truman was just looking for Big East affiliated sports, ND has a decent Basketball team and their baseball team was always in the top 20 until they let Paul Mainieri go to LSU.

I think their women's programs are pretty strong. Honestly, I have don't really follow college sports outside of football. I would like to see ND do well in everything they do, but I would be lying if I said I cared a great deal about anything other than their football team.

[Screw_Michigan]

their baseball team was always in the top 20 until they let Paul Mainieri go to LSU

Yes, if you categorize "let go" as not admitting his daughter to ND so he said fuck you, I'm going to a real baseball school. They also just canned the guy they hired as his replacement.

Also, lacrosse isn't in the Big East either as it is not a league-sponsored sport.

[BSmack]

Also, lacrosse isn't in the Big East either as it is not a league-sponsored sport.

Wrong.

http://www.bigeast.org/SportSelect.dbml ... SID=105730

Although the Big East just started their lacrosse league this season. Which also happens to be the season the Domers went all Rudy on the NCAA lacrosse tournament before those bastard Blue Devils went and flipped the reality switch on them in the national title game.

[Killian]

their baseball team was always in the top 20 until they let Paul Mainieri go to LSU

Yes, if you categorize "let go" as not admitting his daughter to ND so he said fuck you, I'm going to a real baseball school. They also just canned the guy they hired as his replacement.

Also, lacrosse isn't in the Big East either as it is not a league-sponsored sport.

That's exactly what I meant. I think the excuse ND used privately was that kids with higher grades and test scores from her HS (St. Joes?) were denied admission, so that's why they denied it for her as well. From there the story gets a little hazy. The rumor I heard was that Paul called Dan Saricino and after Saricino gave him this half assed excuse, Mainieri asked him what the admission policy was for legacy's. When Saricino told Mainieri that his daughter wasn't a legacy, Mainieri lost it.

From what I have heard and what people have said, Mainieri loved it at ND. Not saying that he would have stayed for his career, but it would have been harder for him to leave.

[Goober McTuber]

Also, lacrosse isn't in the Big East either as it is not a league-sponsored sport.

Wrong.

Seems to be some kind of a trend today.

[Screw_Michigan]

Also, lacrosse isn't in the Big East either as it is not a league-sponsored sport.

Wrong.

http://www.bigeast.org/SportSelect.dbml ... SID=105730

Although the Big East just started their lacrosse league this season. Which also happens to be the season the Domers went all Rudy on the NCAA lacrosse tournament before those bastard Blue Devils went and flipped the reality switch on them in the national title game.

I stand corrected. I thought they were still in the old Big West lax league.

[Screw_Michigan]

That's exactly what I meant. I think the excuse ND used privately was that kids with higher grades and test scores from her HS (St. Joes?) were denied admission, so that's why they denied it for her as well. From there the story gets a little hazy. The rumor I heard was that Paul called Dan Saricino and after Saricino gave him this half assed excuse, Mainieri asked him what the admission policy was for legacy's. When Saricino told Mainieri that his daughter wasn't a legacy, Mainieri lost it.

From what I have heard and what people have said, Mainieri loved it at ND. Not saying that he would have stayed for his career, but it would have been harder for him to leave.

If Mainieri is an ND grad, why would his daughter not be considered a legacy? This all went down about the same time I arrived in SB.

[Killian]

He's not a grad. His point to Saricino was that ND lets in legacy's all the time with grades below what many ND applicant's have that are turned away. With Mainieri being the baseball coach, he thought why wouldn't that be considered when looking at his daughter's application (essentially equating being the head coach at ND to being a legacy)? His daughter had a GPA north of 3.8 and a very good test score. After Saricino made it clear that he viewed ND legacy's as "family" and considered coaches kids as not part of that "family", Mainieri felt as though there was no loyalty from Notre Dame to his real family, so he had no loyalty to ND. And a year or two later, the LSU job opened up and Mainieri flipped ND the double bird as he went to take over for Skip.

[Screw_Michigan]

You know, I think I had this discussion with someone in SB, it sound extremely similar to your story. Thanks for clearing it up. Mainairi's got a point.

[Killian]

Absolutely Mainieri had a point. He wasn't asking for them to admit his daughter with a 2.2 gpa and 17 ACT (essentially a football player). She was a great student who transferred into ND and did extremely well.

I love the football program at ND and very, very casually root for them in other sports, but I fucking hate everything about that school from an administration stand point. It seems the worm is starting to turn with the "retirements" of Fr. Poorman, Saricino and Bill Kirk.

And, Kevin White didn't have the balls to step up and put Saricino in line. The words "It's out of my hands" should be fucking etched on both those cocksucker's tomb stones.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Not only are you too stupid to read, Killian, but you are clearly fucking high. You keep insisting that Texas didn't go Independant because no one would pick up their non-revenue sports. How the fuck do you know if Texas even asked?! Without looking, I can tell you that Texas is a perrenial Top 20 finisher in basketball, baseball, track, and golf. Can you name another sport other than freaking faggotty-ass lacrosse that Notre Dame even competes in? The Big East welcomes your Irish 'cuz they regularly slap the piss outta you. Same as you if you decide to persist in this thread....

We've been at this for what, about 10 years now? In light of that, it amazes me that people still try to pull shit out of their ass when they obviously have no idea what they're talking about. You see, there's this newfangled thingie called the interwebs that allows people to look up stuff and easily refute those claims which are, well, . . . easily refutable (to put it charitably), like this one.

A quick perusal as to the most recently completed academic year over at http://www.bigeast.org reveals the following about ND's teams that compete in the Big East:

Baseball: 9/12 (DePaul, Marquette, Providence and Syracuse don't field teams).
Mens' basketball: 7/16 (and seeded higher than Texas in the NCAA tourney, btw).
Womens' basketball: 5/16
Cross country: No conference standings, but both mens' and womens' teams were ranked in the Top 30 nationally.
Field hockey: No team (only 7/16 Big East members field teams).
Golf: No conference standings, but womens' team advanced to NCAA tournament.
Womens' lacrosse: 2/9 (Cincinnati, UConn, Georgetown, Louisville, Rutgers, Syracuse and Villanova also field teams. Also, Loyola of Md. is a member of the conference for this sport only.)
Womens' rowing: No conference standings, but won Big East tournament.
Mens' soccer: 2/8 in Blue Division, 3/16 overall.
Womens' soccer: 1/8 in National Division, 1/16 overall.
Softball: 2/13 (Cincinnati, Marquette and West Virginia don't field teams).
Swimming and diving: No conference standings, but men finished second and women finished first in Big East tournament.
Tennis: No conference standings, but both mens' and womens' teams advanced to NCAA tournament, with women advancing to NCAA semifinals).
Indoor track and field: No conference standings, but mens' team won Big East tournament.
Outdoor track and field: No conference standings, but mens' team won Big East tournament.
Womens' volleyball: 1/15 (West Virginia doesn't field a team).

That's top half of the conference for every sport except baseball, and at or near the very top in the majority of sports. Doesn't exactly look like the Big East "regularly slaps the piss outta" ND, now does it?

As for "faggotty-ass lacrosse" (still LMAO at the sheer stupidity necessary to post that phrase), ND actually struggled a bit in the regular season, finishing 4/7 in Big East play (Georgetown, Providence, Rutgers, St. John's, Syracuse and Villanova also field teams). They caught fire at the right time, though, advancing all the way to the NCAA finals and taking Duke to OT before losing.

[Truman]

That $25 Million TV package includes the Texas cable package, as I'm sure you didn't know that. And the $25 Million is the top end of that. So let's go with the $25 Million. Let's then say that Texas is going to be one of the two BCS championship teams. I think last year, the payout was $22 Million a side. So $22M/10 = $2.2 Million. I don't know the exact pay outs of the Big 12 and their lesser bowl's, but lets err on the high side and say those 5 bowl games net $10 Million for the conference. That's another $1 Million for Texas. So, in conference you have:

$25M TV package
+2.2M for the BCS
+1M for the other bowls
= $28.2 Million for Texas.

Now, let's assume for a second that Texas decided to go Independent in football. And lets say that Fox won't shell out $25M to Texas for just themselves, so they only get $15M. Now, let's put them back in the BCS title game and the $22M share. Their AD likely isn't the same pussy that Kevin White was when he negotiated ND's deal, so Texas would likely keep the whole share. So, as an independent you have:

$15M TV package
+22M BCS share
=$37 Million for Texas.

If they go to the BCS 3 straight years as an independent, they would make at least $42M more in bowl revenue than they would in conference. On a yearly basis, assuming they can get a TV package equivilant to that of ND, they would be making $8.8M more a year as an independent. The only time they would make less money is if they hit a long stretch where they weren't going to BCS games on a consistant basis.

Nice post Kills. That's exactly what I was gunnin' for when I addressed your initial question.

A $25 M Fox payout for Texas may seem to be on the high end... But then again, it may not. THAT television contract remains to be written. Speculation for the schools within the I-70 corridor - and hence, my rooting interest - has the Tigers, Hawks, and Cats realizing television revenues of $14-17M - almost doubling their annual haul from the current Big XII contract. However, numbers for the "marquee" programs of the TeXas Conference have been projected to be significantly higher, with the Longhorns, Sooners, and Aggies recouping $6-9M MORE because, well, they're Texas, OU, and A&M. It is what it is. The Big Two will continue to vye annually for BCS Bowl berths, Aggieland will continue sucking pus, and the rest of us will have to content ourselves to hoping for the odd-year that we catch lightning-in-a-bottle and compete with our Big Brothers, and kicking their ass in basketball, which actually DOES matter up in these parts.

If you were to review my fourth post on this subject, Kills, I think you'd find that I pretty much stated that I hadn't a clue as to how much money an Independant Texas could make. I DID, however, suggest that Texas would out-earn Notre Dame, even WITH its conference affiliation and given current fortunes of both programs. Since you elected to use speculative numbers, so will I:

$25M Fox TV package
$3-5M Texas Network cable package (considered a low-end estimate by many, btw)
$4.4M BCS share (Bowl splits are not, and never will be, divided equitably in this conference, hence a source of Mizzou's agitation to bail.)
$1M give-or-take Conference split from other bowls
= $35M & change on the high end.

You suggest ridiculous payouts IF an Independant Texas were to go to the BCS three straight years, and I agree. But that's just more woulda, coulda, shoulda. The reality is, Notre Dame has only accomplished this feat twice since the inception of the BCS in '89. My POINT is, Texas has a FAR easier Road to Riches IN Conference... And one Notre Dame could easily realize just as well were they to accept Jerruh's invitation and join the XII.

Outside of basketball, how many of those programs are money makers for a conference? Notre Dame got the Big East deal because the conference was able to use Notre Dame as a chip when trying to hold on to their BCS bid and other bowl tie-ins when that conference was about to fall apart. Does such a circumstance exist for Texas and any other conference today? Would any conference need the Texas name to keep them from losing their BCS bid? If you answer no to either of those questions, then there is no reason to believe any major conference would welcome Texas, sans football, with open arms.

Key word is MAJOR conference. And the answer is "no". But I assert that it wouldn't matter... An Independant Texas would most-likely find a home for its basketball team in the C-USA and the other non-rev sports would still still gain exposure - regardless of conference affiliation - via the Texas Network and STILL compete for National Championships.

You still don't get it, Killian. Texas is another animal unlike any other program in the country. Give it a year-or-10. You'll see.

[Truman]

Can you name another sport other than freaking faggotty-ass lacrosse that Notre Dame even competes in?

Not to stick up for the Domers, but "faggotty-ass lacrosse" is about as stupid a fucking thing as I've ever heard on these boards.

Still chuckin' glass at rock houses are we, B?

Heady praise, indeed, from the Jerry's Kid who regularly defends Jimmy Carter Dark every-third-post over in the CDS....

'Sayin'.

[Truman]

Not only are you too stupid to read, Killian, but you are clearly fucking high. You keep insisting that Texas didn't go Independant because no one would pick up their non-revenue sports. How the fuck do you know if Texas even asked?! Without looking, I can tell you that Texas is a perrenial Top 20 finisher in basketball, baseball, track, and golf. Can you name another sport other than freaking faggotty-ass lacrosse that Notre Dame even competes in? The Big East welcomes your Irish 'cuz they regularly slap the piss outta you. Same as you if you decide to persist in this thread....

We've been at this for what, about 10 years now? In light of that, it amazes me that people still try to pull shit out of their ass when they obviously have no idea what they're talking about. You see, there's this newfangled thingie called the interwebs that allows people to look up stuff and easily refute those claims which are, well, . . . easily refutable (to put it charitably), like this one.

A quick perusal as to the most recently completed academic year over at http://www.bigeast.org reveals the following about ND's teams that compete in the Big East:

Baseball: 9/12 (DePaul, Marquette, Providence and Syracuse don't field teams).
Mens' basketball: 7/16 (and seeded higher than Texas in the NCAA tourney, btw).
Womens' basketball: 5/16
Cross country: No conference standings, but both mens' and womens' teams were ranked in the Top 30 nationally.
Field hockey: No team (only 7/16 Big East members field teams).
Golf: No conference standings, but womens' team advanced to NCAA tournament.
Womens' lacrosse: 2/9 (Cincinnati, UConn, Georgetown, Louisville, Rutgers, Syracuse and Villanova also field teams. Also, Loyola of Md. is a member of the conference for this sport only.)
Womens' rowing: No conference standings, but won Big East tournament.
Mens' soccer: 2/8 in Blue Division, 3/16 overall.
Womens' soccer: 1/8 in National Division, 1/16 overall.
Softball: 2/13 (Cincinnati, Marquette and West Virginia don't field teams).
Swimming and diving: No conference standings, but men finished second and women finished first in Big East tournament.
Tennis: No conference standings, but both mens' and womens' teams advanced to NCAA tournament, with women advancing to NCAA semifinals).
Indoor track and field: No conference standings, but mens' team won Big East tournament.
Outdoor track and field: No conference standings, but mens' team won Big East tournament.
Womens' volleyball: 1/15 (West Virginia doesn't field a team).

That's top half of the conference for every sport except baseball, and at or near the very top in the majority of sports. Doesn't exactly look like the Big East "regularly slaps the piss outta" ND, now does it?

As for "faggotty-ass lacrosse" (still LMAO at the sheer stupidity necessary to post that phrase), ND actually struggled a bit in the regular season, finishing 4/7 in Big East play (Georgetown, Providence, Rutgers, St. John's, Syracuse and Villanova also field teams). They caught fire at the right time, though, advancing all the way to the NCAA finals and taking Duke to OT before losing.

Thanks, Ter. 'Preciate your insight on that Interweb thingie. I'll quit phoning my takes in to PSU via my celly and eagerly awaiting your learn-ed response via his text.

Who sez that the "N is for nowledge" on the side of Nebraska's hats is proprietary to the 'skers alone?! Clearly, you've made a solid case for the "N" in Notre Dame as well.

What part of my "...without looking" disclaimer escapes cognition? I suppose I COULD have bothered myself to google the results of the Lady Irish's finish in the '05-'06 Southwest Left Testicle State Field Hockey Invitational, but I was just slightly more bent in educating Killian - three-fucking-posts deep - that I AM NOT A UT FAN.

Well, THAT... and eliciting tard-like responses from half the northern Midwest.

Well played, Ter. Just like an attorney to take a throw-away line and file a Federal complaint.

[Killian]

Where, in any of my posts, did I say that Texas wouldn't out earn Notre Dame while still a member of the Big 12? I didn't say that. My whole point, if you could read, was that Texas stood to make much more money as a football independent than they did as a member of the Big 12. And your TV numbers are off. Every report has the TV revenue at $25M, with the Texas cable channel. So if Texas could pull in the $25M on their own, add it to the $17-22M per BCS bowl game and you proved my point. Even at $15M for a TV agreement (very conservative, by your estimation) and a $17M payday, they are very close to your numbers, with the freedom to schedule whomever they want.

Kevin White essentially cost ND $21M over the last 5 years by bending over and waddeling up to the BCS for their current agreement. And ND has been in the BCS 3 times since the inception.

ND had to renegotiate the NBC package at a time when they were at historic lows. So, they only came away with $12-14M per year. As I've said in numerous threads, ND wins and they have no worries as far as money is concerned. But ND doesn't give a fuck about maximizing their dollar, as Terry pointed out earlier.

How the hell would ND have a better shot at the BCS in a conference, than they would scheduling their own games? Think that one through for a minute.

And it was smart of you to leave the whole "ND sucks in all other sports" argument.

[Truman]

Tears, Kills, tears....

Where, in any of my posts, did I say that Texas wouldn't out earn Notre Dame while still a member of the Big 12? I didn't say that.

Then what the hell are we arguing about, Killian? Thank you for validating my point.

My whole point, if you could read, was that Texas stood to make much more money as a football independent than they did as a member of the Big 12.

If I could read? Do tell. I'm not the one who stupidly went three posts deep trying to determine my adversary's allegiance. That said, however, clearly, you're smarter than DeLoss Dodds....

And your TV numbers are off. Every report has the TV revenue at $25M, with the Texas cable channel.

EVERY report?! Find one that matters, Kills, cuz yours are flat wrong. The radio-honks in these parts seem fairly comfortable with the $25M figger. I LIVE in XII Country. You don't. If you're relying on national reports, Killian, then I'd suggest you consider the source that had the Big XII South "inevitably" fleeing to the Pac...

So if Texas could pull in the $25M on their own, add it to the $17-22M per BCS bowl game and you proved my point. Even at $15M for a TV agreement (very conservative, by your estimation) and a $17M payday, they are very close to your numbers, with the freedom to schedule whomever they want.

What point? That Texas as an Independant would out-earn Notre Dame as an Independant?! Or as a conference member?! Well, fucking duh. Play with the numbers; play with yourself. MY POINT has been all along that Texas will out-earn Notre Dame, regardless of affiliation.

Kevin White essentially cost ND $21M over the last 5 years by bending over and waddeling up to the BCS for their current agreement. And ND has been in the BCS 3 times since the inception.

...And gotten their ass kicked on all three trips with zero threat to the MNF. Point, Killian, or are you willing to concede that, like Fordham, the sun has set on Notre Dame football?

ND had to renegotiate the NBC package at a time when they were at historic lows. So, they only came away with $12-14M per year. As I've said in numerous threads, ND wins and they have no worries as far as money is concerned.

Count your blessings, Killian because they do not - and will not - win anymore. NOBODY does with any semblance of supremecy north of the Mason-Dixon line. Face it: Notre Dame dominance in football has gone the way of the Wing-T and leather helmets.

But ND doesn't give a fuck about maximizing their dollar, as Terry pointed out earlier.

Really?

"Revenues from the NBC contract have played a key role in Notre Dame's financial aid endowment since the start of the relationship in 1991. University officers decided then to use a portion of the football television contract revenue for undergraduate scholarship endowment (not athletic scholarships). To date, some 2,400 Notre Dame undergraduate students have received nearly $26 million in aid."

http://www.und.com/genrel/061908aab.html

How the hell would ND have a better shot at the BCS in a conference, than they would scheduling their own games? Think that one through for a minute.

OK I will....

ND vs Louisiana Lafayette W.48-20
ND vs North Texas W.34-0
ND vs New Mexico W. 28-21
ND vs Mizzou (in St. Louis) L.38-28
ND @ Oklahoma State L 31-10
ND vs Iowa State W. 28-14
ND vs Baylor W. 24-14
ND vs Texas (in Dallas) L. 28-27
ND vs A&M (in Houston) W. 24-7
ND @ OU L. 45-10
ND vs Texas Tech L. 35-28
ND vs. Kansas W. 21-17
ND vs. Kansas State (in Kansas City) W. 21-19

Seven home games, four neutrals, two true roadies. 8-5, in a good year. Congratualations, Killian, you just earned a Texas Bowl bid. UConn and Navy await your Independant dominance.

And it was smart of you to leave the whole "ND sucks in all other sports" argument.

Not so much. EVERY non-rev sport your Irish would field ('cept lacrosse and field hockey - we don't cotton to fa- er, "Eastern " sports in these parts) would easily get rolled in the XII.

[BSmack]

Not to stick up for the Domers, but "faggotty-ass lacrosse" is about as stupid a fucking thing as I've ever heard on these boards.

Still chuckin' glass at rock houses are we, B?

Play a game of lacrosse someday and get back to me on how "faggotty ass" it is. That is, if you can move enough while in traction to bash out the words on your keyboard.

[Terry in Crapchester]

And one Notre Dame could easily realize just as well were they to accept Jerruh's invitation and join the XII.

Not arguing the revenue angle, but putting that aside, why on earth would ND even consider joining the Big XII? If nothing else, the past few months proved, notwithstanding the naysayers, that ND is still very much a "relevant" program, and that it will always have a seat at the table no matter what (the school you root for, by contrast, isn't quite so fortunate). No need for ND to jump into a football conference. ND remains a national program (one of the few in BTPCF that can still legitimately make that claim), and its fanbase cherishes its independence. ND and Texas have been in pretty significant talks of late, and there are rumors not only that they're working on a deal for a series, but that the series, in light of what recently transpired, will be a long-term deal (as in 10-20 years). I hope that happens, but I don't want it so badly that I would give up ND's independence to make it happen. If ND accepted Bozo the Jerrah Jones Blows Goats' offer, ND would, presumably, be stuck in a North Division with three schools it has never played before, and the two other divisional rivals (Kansas and Missouri) have played ND only ten times total, including just once since 1984. http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/di ... onents.php

From ND's standpoint, the recently-concluded round of musical chairs played out pretty close to perfectly. The Big Ten got its 12th team, and while they didn't get the biggest fish in the pond, they got one that was big enough, hopefully, to sate their expansion lust for awhile. The Pac-10 expanded, but wound up at 12 members rather than 16. The Big XII got rocked but ultimately stuck together. The SEC and ACC both stood pat. The Big East wasn't raided. Why screw that all up by joining a conference now?

But ND doesn't give a fuck about maximizing their dollar, as Terry pointed out earlier.

Really?

"Revenues from the NBC contract have played a key role in Notre Dame's financial aid endowment since the start of the relationship in 1991. University officers decided then to use a portion of the football television contract revenue for undergraduate scholarship endowment (not athletic scholarships). To date, some 2,400 Notre Dame undergraduate students have received nearly $26 million in aid."

http://www.und.com/genrel/061908aab.html

Not to speak for Killian, but I think the key word in the portion of his post that you quoted was "maximizing." Like I said, take a trip to ND Stadium and see for yourself. You won't find an exploding Jumbotron there, nor will you see any signage save for a single NBC sign. So it's quite clear that ND is leaving several potential revenue sources on the table.

That's not the same as saying that ND has no interest at all making any money off its football program. Obviously, that's not even close to being true, especially when one considers that ND fields 24 varsity programs, only two of which have even a sporting chance of finishing in the black by themselves, and that football is the real cash cow, not just for ND but for the rest of BTPCF as well. But it's obvious that ND has no interest in wringing out every last dollar it can from its football program.

And since you brought up the NBC deal (sort of), it's worth noting that ND wants NBC to televise all its home games over the network channel (NBC) rather than over a cable channel (Versus is owned by NBC), even though programming revenues are higher for cable channels. The reason behind that decision is to maximize the availablity of the games for the viewing public.