Uh oh, SS.....

[Carson]

Saban coached in Miami.

Meeting in Miami.

Saban burns for this.

[SEC! SEC! SEC!]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

[King Crimson]

actually Saban doesn't nail it. what he does, is also construct a tidy scenario whereby the coach is off the hook for transgressions. or at the very least, disappearing culpability from this scenario altogether. it's all nice and good to claim the good name of the University against the evil agents, but does Nick think the coach not the university should be on probation if cheating happens under his watch. i doubt it.

[SoCalTrjn]

Funny that when agents go behind the schools backs to contact players at USC its a USC problem but when it happens at Florida, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina..... its an NCAA problem. Pete Carrol had said that it was an NCAA problem all along and that the NCAA and NFL needed to work together to keep these agents away from college players. If these schools are not punished to the same degree that USC is, then that will prove the NCAA's and ESPN's bias

ESPN is protecting a multibillion dollar investment that they have in the SEC, in the same breath this morning Golic said that Pete Carroll should have known that something was up when Reggie Bush started driving a 12 year old sedan that was never even parked on campus but Urban Meyer could have in no way known that anything was up when one of his players pulls in to the players parking area that Florida provides in a brand new Escalade. How does he say that with a straight face. For the last 4 to 5 years agents have been a USC/ Reggie Bush problem but when the agents get caught doing the same shit with SEC players the network says its an NCAA problem. Either sanction these schools the exact same that USC was sanctioned or lower USCs sanctions to match what these schools will recieve.

[SoCalTrjn]

No Justice, No Peace

[Killian]

Did any of those SEC teams have agents openly running around practice? Yeah, real apples to apples comparison ther, SoCal.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

No Justice, No Peace

Justice from what? People saying mean things about USC? Suck it up, pussy.

[SoCalTrjn]

Lake and Michaels ran around USCs practices?

USCs practices were open to everyone to come out and watch. Local High School players, Pop Warner/JAAF players, fans, alumni... everyone. If there were agents there they had the same access as everyone else..."stay behind the rope, you can get autographs and hand shakes when practice was over. This bullshit the NCAA is trying to say that USC had agents in the locker rooms handing out gifts is just that, bullshit. Carroll made practices open because before he came to USC there was this auroa, right or wrong, that USC was this wealthy kids school standing alone as an island in down town Los Angeles where Angelinos were not welcome. The Ricky Rosas and other stories like his were also a part of the open practices which were just a community out reach program, part of Petes "Better LA" program. The NCAA tried to paint a picture having never been around the situation, they said that having an Alumni like Will Ferrell at practices was an "unfair advantage" in their report on the sanctions. How is Will Ferrell at an occasional practice bad? Is it different than the country singer at Oklahoma practices or the Cable Guy at Nebraska practices? The NCAA had a perception that USC was given unfair advantages in recruiting and a "wild culture" and all they could come up with was open practices. Funny that the person in charge of this comittee was at Miami during the "U" years when Luke Skywalker was handing out money to Canes players and it seems like he is trying to make USC look like they were as bad as Miami was.

[SoCalTrjn]

No Justice, No Peace

Justice from what? People saying mean things about USC? Suck it up, pussy.

an "agent" and not someone involved with the school violated NCAA rules and USC was given a 2 year bowl ban and loss of 30 scholarships.
Same thing happened at these other schools, they all deserve the same thing, bowl bans and loss of scholarships.

People will always say bad things about USC, its envy

[H4ever]

Screw the NFL.....kick their ass out of the college game in every aspect possible. I like Saban's idea of putting agents on probation, banning them for a couple of years, or whatever, anytime they're connected to an NCAA violation involving college football players.

NFL= WWF anymore. Greed and a circus atmosphere where there's very little love for the game and laying it all out for your team compared to college ball.

[M Club]

this is all texas' fault. now the entire country will see them for who they really are.

[poptart]

Screw the NFL.....kick their ass out of the college game in every aspect possible.

I can understand and appreciate the sentiment.

Notice the NFL is out (almost entirely - relatively) of D-II, D-III, and NAIA ball.

It's just D-I that they are tied to the hip with, and always will be because the best players in college are sought after by the next level up - the NFL.

To be taken seriously, D-1 should quit pretending it's intercollegiate athletics the same as D-II, D-III, and NAIA.

As I've said, turn D-1 College into a full-fledged NFL farm system.
Or a minor league.
Or let the athletes make college football their major.
Or pay the players.
Or SOMETHING.

What you've got right now is a joke.

NFL= WWF anymore. Greed and a circus atmosphere where there's very little love for the game and laying it all out for your team compared to college ball.

Yes, as opposed to D-I, where players - *rah rah, sis boom bah* - LOVE their University so much that they leave early to cash in at the NFL level, and where coaches jump ship and abandon kids they've recruited in order to go to a HIGHER PROFILE yob.

Give me a break.

D-I is all about THE ME, also.

[King Crimson]

Or let the athletes make college football their major.

even if i didn't teach college for a living, i would oppose this 100%. even the broader "minor league" argument is baloney....it comes from a perspective that sees BTPCF as a "use-value" for the NFL and NFL fans. 99% of the players in BTPCF don't play in the NFL and over half of them (around 72% at CU--equal to or higher than the "civilian" grad % at CU) get college degrees and do something with them. the first round draft picks and meth-head illiterates are far and away the outliers in the overall scheme. sure, it's a bit parodic that the players don't see any of the cheese they help produce but overall, day to day life on the ground at an institution of higher learning, the current status quo of the "system" has a pretty decent yield overall in terms of producing student-athletes who both gain and give from the experience.

that said, i despise the sense of entitlement of D-1 athletes in the classroom. 4 out of 5 of them do anything they can to cut corners, cheat, allow their work to be done in "teams" that is right on the edge of academic misconduct, etc. however, many normal students behave the same way, but they don't parade around in their Nike team sweats like God's Gift to Your Morning so they stand out less. objectively speaking, there's no argument for a "football major" or organizing college football as a "minor league" that isn't simply a wish-fulfillment for NFL fans.

if you want to put some $$$ in the student-athlete's pocket, that's a different argument.

[mvscal]

Saban nails it:

"What the NFL Players Association and the NFL need to do is if any agent breaks a rule and causes ineligibility for a player, they should suspend his [agent's] license for a year or two," Saban said. "I'm about ready for college football to say, 'Let's just throw the NFL out. Don't let them evaluate players. Don't let them talk to players. Let them do it at the combine.' If they are not going to help us, why should we help them?"

Saban said he also believes the NCAA should "take schools off the hook" for the actions of agents and players. In the end, however, he points at the former.

"Right now, agents are screwing it up," Saban said. "They are taking the eligibility of players. It's not right that those players do the wrong thing. We have a great education process here. We have a full-time worker who meets with players and their families and does everything else."

I like his point about getting some cooperation from the NFL to discipline agents for for these violations but you can't let schools and coaches off the hook either. That just doesn't work.

Oh and don't mistake Saban for anything other than the backstabbing, self-serving dickbag that he is. We heard nary a peep from him when USC got plungered now that his ox is gored there is a "serious problem."

He can die in fire while in the late terminal stage of ass cancer.

[poptart]

even if i didn't teach college for a living, i would oppose this (football as a major) 100%.

I understand.

What about this proposal?

1. D-1 schools get 70 football scholarships (cut down from 85). I know, I know ... coaches would cry bloody murder, but shit, an NFL roster, by comparison, has just 53 spots. Yes, they have a practice squad, too, but a D-1 team could have walk-ons, also. These 70 scholarships are 5 year scholarships, as opposed to the current 4 year deals.

2. The D-1 football scholarship football player must make football their major, and this will be for four years. They put time and effort into practices, games, workouts, meetings, etc. This is their focus while at the U. Now, if a player wants to take classes toward a different major while on his scholarship, he may also do that.

Many D-1 football players definitely DO want to concentrate on a real major.
So while these kids are on scholarship as a football major, and putting time in that way, they might, say for example, take 6 (or more?) extra credit hours a semester in ... business, engineering, psychology, whatever their focus is.

Taking 6 extra hours a semester would give them 48 hours earned toward their real major by the time they've finished 4 years.

They then have a fifth scholarship year given to them on this plan (during which there is no football), which they can use to take ---> say 18 semester hours, toward their real major. This would then give them 84 hours earned (48+36) toward their major, after their fifth year. They are one year (36 semester hours) away from earning their real degree, and they must pay their own way for one year to get their degree.

Of course if they had managed to take more than 6 extra hours a semester during their playing years, they would be closer yet to the degree that they are seeking.


With this proposal, much of the charade that is D-1 college ball would be put to bed.
The "pure jock" cromagnon-type could be ... just that.
And the real student/athlete could be that, too ... even though he is required to put a lot of commitment toward football -- which they do now, anyway.

The downside is that the legit student/athlete would be penalized by not realistically being able to finish school in four years and have his degree.
He would likely need five (or maybe six) years to finish, and he would have to pay for maybe one year of his own education.


This plan doesn't address the *hush* *hush* pay the college player issue at all (but I DO have some ideas for this, too :wink: ).

But it does address the current student/athlete farce we know exists.

[Killian]

Don't pay the kids. Allow them to get jobs like any other college student.

[mvscal]

Don't pay the kids. Allow them to get jobs like any other college student.

But they aren't like any other college student. How the fuck are they supposed to go to school, work a job and play football?

Personally, I don't see any problem with paying scholarship athletes a modest stipend regulated by the NCAA.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Personally, I don't see any problem with paying scholarship athletes a modest stipend regulated by the NCAA.

For what purpose? To prevent them from accepting money from agents, or because you feel sorry that mom & dad can't hand out a few bucks for beer and condom money?

[mvscal]

Personally, I don't see any problem with paying scholarship athletes a modest stipend regulated by the NCAA.

For what purpose?

For the same purpose that you pay anyone else a stipend, you stupid douche.

A stipend is a form of monetary payment or salary, such as for an internship or apprenticeship. It is often distinct from a wage or a salary because it does not necessarily represent payment for work performed, instead it represents a payment that enables somebody to be exempt partly or wholly from waged or salaried employment in order to undertake a role that is normally unpaid.

Stipends are usually lower than what would be expected as a permanent salary for similar work. This is because the stipend is complemented by other benefits such as accreditation, instruction, food, and/or accommodation. Universities usually refer to money paid to graduate students as a stipend, rather than as wages, to reflect complementary benefits.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Athletics are not a part of their college curriculums, you moronic asspiece. Unlike what students are performing in the ROTC (but I noticed you edited that analogy out). Therefore they don't deserve a stipend, in my opinion. A loan would be a better idea.

[mvscal]

Athletics are not a part of their college curriculums, you moronic asspiece.

Are you retarded? What the fuck do you think they get the scholarship for, idiot?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

How is that a coherent question in regards to my statement? Yes, they get a free education for coming to their university and participating in something completely unrelated to academics, like throwing a football or running really fast. That's the arrangement. No additional money is given or is deserved.

[mvscal]

How is that a coherent question in regards to my statement?

The question is how or why should athletics be any different from academics. Grad students are paid stipends. Numerous other academic scholarships are endowed with stipends. Why should athletic scholarships be any different?

Are you attempting to suggest that athletics contribute nothing to a university? Actually, you really aren't even trying to make a point at all. Check back in when you have something other than brainless, knee jerk stupidity.

[Killian]

Don't pay the kids. Allow them to get jobs like any other college student.

But they aren't like any other college student. How the fuck are they supposed to go to school, work a job and play football?

Personally, I don't see any problem with paying scholarship athletes a modest stipend regulated by the NCAA.

During their offseasons, let them get a job to make a few extra bucks. They aren't leaving school with a mountain of debt, nor do they have to scratch out a check every semester to continue to go to school. Or as Mgo said, have them take out a loan. I see zero reason why these kids should be paid for getting a scholarship, but have no problem with them being able to work to get a few extra bucks.

[SoCalTrjn]

Don't pay the kids. Allow them to get jobs like any other college student.

But they aren't like any other college student. How the fuck are they supposed to go to school, work a job and play football?

Personally, I don't see any problem with paying scholarship athletes a modest stipend regulated by the NCAA.

A modest stipend that is based on the local cost of living ie, if the rent at an apartment is 400 at one school and 1600 at another, the stipend at the 1600 school is 4 times higher.




All these schools that had players at this party getting money and gifts from agents deserve the same punishment USC got, or USCs punishment should be lowered to match what these schools are getting.

[Killian]

Great idea, dummy. You'll get kids going to schools just for the extra stipend and live in the dorm.

As soon as those programs show the level of lack of institutional control that USC did, they will be punished equally.

[King Crimson]

Great idea, dummy. You'll get kids going to schools just for the extra stipend and live in the dorm.

As soon as those programs show the level of lack of institutional control that USC did, they will be punished equally.

and schools should only be able to recruit players from their home state, ya know? even private schools.

sin,

Schmick and Texas fan.

[mvscal]

A modest stipend that is based on the local cost of living ie, if the rent at an apartment is 400 at one school and 1600 at another, the stipend at the 1600 school is 4 times higher.

Uh, no. This not a living allowance. They can live in the dorms. This is just a little walking around money. Same rate across the board.

[M Club]

All these schools that had players at this party getting money and gifts from agents deserve the same punishment USC got, or USCs punishment should be lowered to match what these schools are getting.

tear.

In a comically ridiculous interview on HBO’s “Real Sports” last week, Carroll offered a personal defense based on naïvete, outright stupidity and even the inability to judge pro football talent.

“We didn’t have the awareness,” he told Andrea Kremer when asked why they weren’t more diligent with Bush. “We didn’t have the awareness to know.”

Wait, Pete, you didn’t know star players get offered money from agents who want to represent them and when one shows up with a new ride, you might look at the paperwork twice?

“He started the first time regularly his junior year,” Carroll said, apparently surprised the soon-to-be No. 2 pick in the draft was NFL material. Heck, Carroll even asked one of the marketing agents that the NCAA claims was paying Bush to set Reggie up as a summer intern. What bad could happen?

Carroll blamed the compliance office, which at the time he claims had only one worker.

“We didn’t know we needed more,” he said.

the compliance department was staffed by one person? work study students file paperwork; actual professionals (with legal education?) stay on top of ncaa and conference regulations in order set up systems of compliance within the ad. usc didn't demonstrate lack of institutional control so much as it just couldn't be bothered to even care.

[mvscal]

I guess it's theoretically possible to be more full of shit than Petey. What a piece of shit.

[M Club]

2. The D-1 football scholarship football player must make football their major, and this will be for four years. They put time and effort into practices, games, workouts, meetings, etc. This is their focus while at the U. Now, if a player wants to take classes toward a different major while on his scholarship, he may also do that.

Many D-1 football players definitely DO want to concentrate on a real major.
So while these kids are on scholarship as a football major, and putting time in that way, they might, say for example, take 6 (or more?) extra credit hours a semester in ... business, engineering, psychology, whatever their focus is.

Taking 6 extra hours a semester would give them 48 hours earned toward their real major by the time they've finished 4 years.

They then have a fifth scholarship year given to them on this plan (during which there is no football), which they can use to take ---> say 18 semester hours, toward their real major. This would then give them 84 hours earned (48+36) toward their major, after their fifth year. They are one year (36 semester hours) away from earning their real degree, and they must pay their own way for one year to get their degree.

Of course if they had managed to take more than 6 extra hours a semester during their playing years, they would be closer yet to the degree that they are seeking.

great idea let's see... taking the whole of D-1A football into account, perhaps 10 players from every roster will make professional football a career. maybe five will have a career that lasts any longer than three years. so now you have 75 players from every team strong-armed into your dipshit football major who have to now pay out-of-pocket for the degree they used to get for free under the current system of exploitation.

why don't we take this further and just say any high school player who reaches all-league must drop their core-curriculum classes to focus only on their sport. if they want they can take night classes to get all their english credits in.

can't wait for the second-string safety at temple to drop his engineering courses just because a few bling blingers from florida are driving around in an escalade.

[poptart]

great idea let's see... taking the whole of D-1A football into account, perhaps 10 players from every roster will make professional football a career. maybe five will have a career that lasts any longer than three years.

Of course you failed to take into account the very large number of complete ZERO students who populate the big time D-1 rosters.
Sure, maybe just a handful of players are going to really make it in the pros, but there are a shitload of guys who are on D-1 rosters who have no business at all being in college, and would not be, if it were not for the fact that they either run fast, jump high, or are ... big or fat.

Lots and LOTS of such 'tards.

so now you have 75 players from every team strong-armed into your dipshit football major who have to now pay out-of-pocket for the degree they used to get for free under the current system of exploitation.

75 players?

My proposal was to give 70 five year scholarships, as opposed to what we have now - 85 four year scholarships.

With my proposal, how much are these "football majors" going to pay to also get their "real" degree in psych, engineering, or whatever?

Well, maybe nothing.


Understand, as it is right now, with the amount time a big time D-1 player must put into college football, it already IS a major, of sorts.

We just don't call it that.

Right now some guys put in a BUNCH of time for football AND do the REAL student thing, too, right?

So with my proposal, if a guy can do the D-1 football gig AND take an average of 12 semester hours in his real major, he would finish his five years by paying NOTHING out of pocket.

[M Club]

Of course you failed to take into account the very large number of complete ZERO students who populate the big time D-1 rosters.
Sure, maybe just a handful of players are going to really make it in the pros, but there are a shitload of guys who are on D-1 rosters who have no business at all being in college, and would not be, if it were not for the fact that they either run fast, jump high, or are ... big or fat.

Lots and LOTS of such 'tards.

when you're done painting with your three-meter-wide brush maybe you can break down how many of those students don't belong in college. or better yet, explain how college is a bad thing for people who still have things to learn. ja, i get it: a lot of these athletes are woefully unprepared for what should be a rigorous course of study, but then again, so are most of the students who've enrolled in college post-WW2. dumbfuckery and near-illiteracy aren't the sole domain of football players.

anyhow, you said BTCFB rosters, which has to do with the point i made. the dregs of the bcs conferences and all of the mid-majors aren't sending many people to the nfl. i think most of the team at northwestern or vanderbilt probably wants to make use of the actual degree programs they offer and not some stupid football major.

Understand, as it is right now, with the amount time a big time D-1 player must put into college football, it already IS a major, of sorts.

We just don't call it that.

maybe we can call it a job then. i remember working about 30-40 hours during undergrad. maybe i should have majored in pizza delivery/bartending and then used a fifth year to study literature.

people work and go to college at the same time. they use the money they earn at their job to pay for school. football players do the same thing, for all intents and purposes.

Right now some guys put in a BUNCH of time for football AND do the REAL student thing, too, right?

no, they get to bang a lot more hoes than they'd pull otherwise as real students.

So with my proposal, if a guy can do the D-1 football gig AND take an average of 12 semester hours in his real major, he would finish his five years by paying NOTHING out of pocket.

uh, how is this any different than what happens now? i think most players actually take less than 12 hours during the season.

[King Crimson]

football players may have other time obligations other than schoolwork and banging hoes.....but they get no sympathy from me. which is why the current system is fine with me. there are not unfair obligations on BTPCF player time. i'm watching Cody Hawkins ride around CU's Dal Ward Center with some hottie in tow on a scooter being a total dickhead Coach's son yesterday.

you want to talk about people doing the work, community college transfers holding down a job to transfer into and pay for going to Colorado or your public of choice. i have a buddy who went to mighty Front Range Community College and transferred to CU. he's now a rich motherfucker living in Sonoma County designing houses for rich assholes. while the NoCal "dot.com" people were worth jack-nothing on paper in 1999, he was building their houses, selling them "art", and getting paid....in real money.

with today's grade inflation, if you can't make "C's" you are trying not to. like skipping tests, turning in your work late, etc. it's an active process to fail. i could make C's at Colorado spending 1 hour a day on academic work. i guarantee it's the same at Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan, North Carolina, Cal, wherever.

[poptart]

when you're done painting with your three-meter-wide brush maybe you can break down how many of those students don't belong in college. or better yet, explain how college is a bad thing for people who still have things to learn. ja, i get it: a lot of these athletes are woefully unprepared for what should be a rigorous course of study, but then again, so are most of the students who've enrolled in college post-WW2. dumbfuckery and near-illiteracy aren't the sole domain of football players.

You can walk around with blinders on if you like.
A lot of the players are woefully prepared for ANY course of college study, let alone a rigorous one.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sport ... ab_newstab

Nationwide, football players average 220 points lower on the SAT than their classmates

That is a very significant difference, for an average, M Club, because of course at some schools with successful football programs, the gap is MUCH greater than that.

I'm not painting with a broad brush, I'm just not adverse to looking at reality.

If that shoe fits ...

[SoCalTrjn]

Some schools dont have enough dorms and the increase in stipend would only be given out if the athlete lived outside of the schools dorms.
Rent isnt the only thing that would effect their cost of living, things like auto insurance are going to be higher in certain areas than others as well. Every school should be given the level playing field when its going to come down to the cost of living expenses for their student athletes.

[Killian]

Some schools dont have enough dorms and the increase in stipend would only be given out if the athlete lived outside of the schools dorms.
Rent isnt the only thing that would effect their cost of living, things like auto insurance are going to be higher in certain areas than others as well. Every school should be given the level playing field when its going to come down to the cost of living expenses for their student athletes.

Do you try hard to be this dumb, or does it come naturally?

[SoCalTrjn]

The NCAA came down on USC because of a percieved recruiting advantage the Trojans had. Thats why they asked them to close the practices and ask the celebrities to stay out of the endzone at home games The NCAA went so far as to mention this percieved recruiting advantage 38 times in the Comittees report on USCs sanctions.
If they NCAA is going to allow a stipend to be given to every college football player in the nation it should be based on the cost of living for students at that college. Just to keep things fair and level. Same with this issue with all these players recieving all this stuff from agents. Reggie had a 10 year old car with a 4,000 dollar blue book and USC dropped the ball but Floridas center is driving around in a brand new 68,000 dollar Escalade and tebow is showing up at NBA finals games in 15,000 dollar seats and Florida gets off scott free? Alabama was already on probation and has been for the last 17 years and they have 2 guys on paid fishing charters with agents, another guy getting computers from agents and who knows how many guys going to parties on agents dimes and Saban says its an NCAA issue and not an Alabama issue. They had 5 players involved where USC had 1 and USC has a lack of institutional control? Saban has his own agent meeting with Bama players, look how many of his players have signed with his agent. ESPN is treating this issue completely different than they treated USC when its the same issue, the difference is the SEC is ESPNs cash cow and not the Pac or USC, they have a vested interest in keeping SEC schools off sanctions because it would hurt the multi billion dollar deal they have with the conference. If USC is guilty of not being able to keep 1 player away from agents then all these other schools, many with mulitiple players are too.

[M Club]

You can walk around with blinders on if you like.
A lot of the players are woefully prepared for ANY course of college study, let alone a rigorous one.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sport ... ab_newstab

Nationwide, football players average 220 points lower on the SAT than their classmates

That is a very significant difference, for an average, M Club, because of course at some schools with successful football programs, the gap is MUCH greater than that.

I'm not painting with a broad brush, I'm just not adverse to looking at reality.

If that shoe fits ...

please. why don't you fish around for the last time simple averages carried any statistical weight. and you're not painting with a broad brush?

i hardly walk around with blinders on. i fully buy into the dipshits-as-athletes stereotype. a great deal of players were shuttled through shitty high schools where teachers are more concerned about getting through the day with less than 20 fights than they are teaching verb-subject agreement in standard english. miserable academic candidates come from these schools, among other places. but ja, they can throw and jump and gain admittance to schools they otherwise wouldn't have, and then the university benefits from their presence on campus. in the meantime, they have an opportunity to take advantage of the degree that's being offered. shuttling them off into a football major is a SFI since now you have players who have scores well above the student body average being forced to study...what, exactly? a football curriculum? i suppose you can whah-whah about the students who were passed over in favor off the less qualified athletes, though that ignores fluctuating enrollment or the fact like 20% of standard freshman drop out before their second year.

besides, it's not like virtual football majors don't already exist. they're called 'general studies' or 'kinesiology.'

[poptart]

shuttling them off into a football major is a SFI since now you have players who have scores well above the student body average being forced to study...what, exactly? a football curriculum?

With the system in place right NOW, they are already doing that.
A football player at a big-time D-1 school is required to put in a helluva lot of hours.
He's already "studying" a football curriculum.

please. why don't you fish around for the last time simple averages carried any statistical weight. and you're not painting with a broad brush?

Hmmmm ....

Good thing you chose english - ?maybe?, 'cuz apparently math ain't your thang.

If the average of one total group is 20+% lower than the average of another total group (which football player's SAT scores are, in comparison to the overall student population), then we KNOW that the 20+% lower group has a significant number of *LOW SCORES* which bring the overall average down to such an extent.

Look at a knuckhead walking around big-time D-1 campus - it's a pretty good bet he's a football or basketball playah.