Watching ND football is like voluntary water boarding

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:18 pm

Yeah, I've seen all I need to of the Kelly era. These next 3-5 years should be awesome.

OUMO · Post by **OUMO** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:19 pm

Man you have to rack Tulsa.

Mace · Post by **Mace** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:26 pm

You're right, RACK Tulsa, but how the hell does ND lose to Tulsa? And at home? The Irish have sunk to new depths of pathetic.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:29 pm

I'm a minor league ND hater... and that even pained me.

I'm sure if I rack my brain, I could think of a worse playcall/QB decision... but it might take me a while.

I never watch the ND games if I can help it, and I'm still kind of in shock at the level of incompetence I just witnessed. I'm going to chalk it up to the obvious huge distractions, since ND has won games with this staff and players.

Big ups to Tulsa, and hearts out to Declan's loved ones.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:14 am

was it Terry or Killian i told this summer that TU might just beat ND?

Mace · Post by **Mace** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:21 am

King Crimson wrote:was it Terry or Killian i told this summer that TU might just beat ND?

Wish you'd told me that before I made my picks this week.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:24 am

Mace wrote:
King Crimson wrote:was it Terry or Killian i told this summer that TU might just beat ND?
Wish you'd told me that before I made my picks this week.

i think i took ND as well.

edit: yup, game 23: NDM. ouch.

War Tulsa.

Mace · Post by **Mace** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:26 am

King Crimson wrote:
Mace wrote:
King Crimson wrote:was it Terry or Killian i told this summer that TU might just beat ND?
Wish you'd told me that before I made my picks this week.
i think i took ND as well.

I still thank that was the smart pick and, if they were playing again next week, I'd still take the Irish.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:47 am

Killian wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:I took ND -8.5 in the Pick'em.

I don't know if they keep stats on "ATS after a death," but it's gotta be one covering mofo.

Even ND can't fuck this one up... right? Does Rudy have any eligibility left? Put that fucker in there and that would cover 38.5.
Take Tulsa.

And KC, I think it was a conversation with Terry. Could have been me, fuck, I don't know.

Laxplayer · Post by **Laxplayer** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:51 am

I've said it for years....I'd rather root for a team that goes 0-10 and graduates their players than a 10-0 team that cheats their asses off.
Well that day isn't that far off. man even if you have a new coach, new system etc.....there is no fucking way you should ever lose to
Tulsa. Fucking Tulsa.....I agree Killian, this guy is in way over his head.....time to go after Gruden.

Mace · Post by **Mace** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:58 am

It may be of little consolation to Domer fans....but at least you're not Texas. They've lost AT HOME to UCLA, Iowa State, and now Baylor. WTF?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:04 am

All BCS schools. This was Tulsa's first win against a BCS team in 20 tries.

OUMO · Post by **OUMO** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:40 am

Killian wrote:All BCS schools. This was Tulsa's first win against a BCS team in 20 tries.

If you need a shower rod I can send one via John Blake.

Laxplayer · Post by **Laxplayer** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:42 am

Notre Dame has just announced their 2011 schedule:
SE Western Michigan tech
NW southern North Dakota
NE Northern Oregon
Southern Northern Minnesota
SW San Diego tech
Santa Anita valley school for the blind
Bye....and are a 7 point underdog.
Bye
university of crippled blind children
SW Northern Old Mexico....because new mexico is too tough.

Mace · Post by **Mace** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:44 am

Laxplayer wrote:Notre Dame has just announced their 2011 schedule:
SE Western Michigan tech
NW southern North Dakota
NE Northern Oregon
Southern Northern Minnesota
SW San Diego tech
Santa Anita valley school for the blind
Bye....and are a 7 point underdog.
Bye
university of crippled blind children
SW Northern Old Mexico....because new mexico is too tough.

Wow. Looks like another year of not being bowl eligible.

Laxplayer · Post by **Laxplayer** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:20 pm

...and being sub .500

The Seer · Post by **The Seer** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:50 pm

Laxplayer wrote:Notre Dame has just announced their 2011 schedule:
SE Western Michigan tech
NW southern North Dakota
NE Northern Oregon
Southern Northern Minnesota
SW San Diego tech
Santa Anita valley school for the blind
Bye....and are a 7 point underdog.
Bye
university of crippled blind children
SW Northern Old Mexico....because new mexico is too tough.

They're in the SEC?

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:42 pm

I'm trying to keep an eye on the positive, or at least mitigating factors, but it's starting to get awfully hard.

Yes, the injury bug has hit us pretty hard. But injuries are part of the game. Good coaches can make adjustments to injuries, and particularly with the soft schedule we have this year, there's no excuse there.

And yes, we're only a handful of plays away from being a 7-2 team right now. And I think most ND fans would've accepted 7-2 at this juncture this season. But again, good coaches find a way to win the majority of those games, and ND hasn't won one yet this year. Especially against a team like Tulsa, ND should've found a way to win.

Rack Tulsa, but I can't help but think about two factors, both of which fall squarely on the coaching. First, the blocked extra point and Tulsa 2-point return. That's a 3-point swing right there, which would've taken the FG option off the table for Tulsa and forced them to go for it on fourth down. No excuse for a blocked extra point AND 2-point return by the opponent.

Then there was ND's final drive. When you: (a) already have the ball inside your opponents' 20-yard line; (b) need only a FG to win the game; (c) have a kicker who hasn't missed a FG attempt all season; and (d) have a true freshman in at QB; you simply don't put the ball in the hands of your freshman QB at that point. You run the ball in the center of the field, kill the clock, call timeout when you get down to about 3-4 seconds, and put your FG team on the field to win the game. That INT is entirely on Kelly, not Rees.

I'm loath to give up on any coach as early as 3/4 of the way into his first season, and I'm still rooting for Kelly to turn this around, but I'm beginning to run out of hope that he can. The bye comes at an interesting time. It'll be interesting to see how the team responds. At a minimum, I hope to see an inspired effort against Utah a week from Saturday. That will tell me that he hasn't completely lost the team yet.

Laxplayer wrote:I've said it for years....I'd rather root for a team that goes 0-10 and graduates their players than a 10-0 team that cheats their asses off.

I agree, and unfortunately, that's about the only consolation I have at this point.

I agree Killian, this guy is in way over his head.....time to go after Gruden.

I honestly don't think Gruden is the answer. The college game differs significantly from the NFL, beyond recruiting. Gruden's never been a head coach at the college level, and he's almost 20 years removed from his most recent college coaching gig of any sort. Not to mention, he might not be gettable, in that he has a much cushier job right now than he would have at ND. Yes, ND could break the bank to get him, but ESPN likely could match any offer ND put on the table, at least to the point where money would no longer be the deciding factor. As distasteful as it may be to some, if ND fires Kelly for any reason, I think we have to go after Saban.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:53 pm

Killian wrote:Yeah, I've seen all I need to of the Kelly era. These next 3-5 years should be awesome.

Why should anyone give two fucking shits? Why should anyone have even a sliver of sympathy for you? You lie with dogs, you get fleas.

Fucking die already.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:54 pm

Dinsdale wrote:hearts out to Declan's loved ones.

Never happened.

Sin,

Killifag

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:59 pm

Terry in Crapchester wrote:As distasteful as it may be to some, if ND fires Kelly for any reason, I think we have to go after Saban.

BWAHAHAHAH! You're fucking kidding, right? Like Saban would ever want to leave 'Bama to coach at ND? Why does every fucking ND fan think the best coaches in the country will leave their top jobs just for the shot to coach at ND?

Terry, open your fucking eyes, pal. NOTRE DAME IS FUCKING IRRELEVANT. Period. Full stop. The 80s were more than 20 years ago. Nobody is just going to walk away from a top 10 program to coach in South Bend. You have to overpay for any coach worth a shit to come to town and even with the offer of being overpaid, no one wants to coach at ND. You're the lepers of 1-A ball.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:59 pm

You honestly need fucking mental help. Serious question, are you bipolar? I never once asked for sympathy. It's a fucking football board and my post was 100% about football.

And you're right, I never wanted T's&P's to go out to the Sullivan family.

Oh, and while we're on it, where in this statement am I covering up for anyone, sweeping anything under the rug, or hedging my bets:

Killian wrote:ND is going to have a press conference at 2pm to address the situation. This is sad on two fronts. The first being that some dumbass at Notre Dame either told this kid to go up in the tower or at minimum didn't tell him to get down, and the second is that the kid is at an age where he likely wouldn't question what his boss told him to do (if he was told to get into the tower).

SunCoastSooner · Post by **SunCoastSooner** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:27 pm

Sudden Sam wrote:
The Seer wrote:
Laxplayer wrote:Notre Dame has just announced their 2011 schedule:
SE Western Michigan tech
NW southern North Dakota
NE Northern Oregon
Southern Northern Minnesota
SW San Diego tech
Santa Anita valley school for the blind
Bye....and are a 7 point underdog.
Bye
university of crippled blind children
SW Northern Old Mexico....because new mexico is too tough.

They're in the SEC?
WAC

Nah, if they were WAC they have a decent non-conference schedule.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:06 pm

Screw_Michigan wrote:Terry, open your fucking eyes, pal. NOTRE DAME IS FUCKING IRRELEVANT. Period. Full stop. The 80s were more than 20 years ago.

And before the 00's, the 80's were the losingest decade for ND football.

Nobody is just going to walk away from a top 10 program to coach in South Bend. You have to overpay for any coach worth a shit to come to town and even with the offer of being overpaid, no one wants to coach at ND. You're the lepers of 1-A ball.

You're right on one point. No one is going to walk away from a top 10 program to coach in South Bend. There are no 1-A football programs in South Bend. Last I checked, ND was located in Notre Dame, Indiana.

As for the rest, I seem to recall people saying the same thing about 'Bama before Saban took that job. How'd that turn out?

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:13 pm

Saban didn't walk away from a top 10 program to coach Bama. He was unhappy in Miami, and was going to get shitcanned eventually. Good moves by Saban and Bama.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:31 pm

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:Saban didn't walk away from a top 10 program to coach Bama. He was unhappy in Miami, and was going to get shitcanned eventually. Good moves by Saban and Bama.

True, but Saben has proved to be quite the carpet bagger. Him going to ND is a completely different discussion.

L45B · Post by **L45B** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:14 pm

Threads like this remind me how funny it is when tOSU fans call for Jim Tressel's job after a loss. :doh: Carry on...

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:23 pm

Screw_Michigan wrote:Nobody is just going to walk away from a top 10 program to coach in South Bend.

But they will for Ann Arbor!

Sin,
You-Know-Whos

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:59 pm

Fuck that lance...I want that midget asshole fired even when they win...

oh yeah great beating Purdue and Minny by a combined 101 or some shit like that to 10...big fucking deal you egotistical fucking micro manager...fuck you jim tressel...talent out the ass and what to show for it...well we won the Big 10...big fucking deal (winning the Big 10 in football is like winning the SEC in hockey)...hey fuck head tressel how have you done against USC...got fucking butchered...UF prison fucked...LSU butt fucked in the mouth...the best win this program has in the last 5 or so years is a win against 2006 Michigan, an almost win against 2005 Texas and a Rose Bowl win against Oregon...big fucking deal...

sorry I am done with this midget ass and his golly, gee, shoot, we should have executed better...no fuck brain...when you design shitty game plans they are just that SHIT...the stuff you trotted out in the first half against Wisconsin was pathetic...oh and how about that Miami game...they are shit now and we should have hung fucking 60 on them...but no FIELD GOAL JIM can't fucking score TD against good team...YOU PLAY TO WIN THE FUCKING GAME ASSWIPE...

ok rant over...

L45B · Post by **L45B** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:10 pm

I hear ya, _sc. I am not blind to the numerous flaws, but I look to the north and to the northwest and I realize things could be much much worse. And trust me, I admit the conference has been down for the past 5+ years or so but you have to give Tressel some credit for that. He has hogged most of the best local talent for a decade now-- in my opinion, part of the reason the likes of Michigan, Notre Dame, Penn State etc have not been consinstently good for the past how many years. He's a great recruiter, and has adjusted his recruiting philosophy (especially on defense) to compete nationally. Which, in turn, can bite us in the ass when we line up against a pure smashmouth team like Wisconsin. He doesn't make nearly enough adjustments in his style and even coaching staff, in my opinion, but we're not exactly going 8-4 every year either.

Sorry ND guys, done hijacking your thread.

Mace · Post by **Mace** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:33 pm

L45B wrote:He has hogged most of the best local talent for a decade now--

Or maybe not.

Sin,

Ricky Stanzi
DJK
Micah Hyde

Laxplayer · Post by **Laxplayer** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:34 pm

Don't worry about highjacking the thread. The season was already highjacked but shitty play on the field.

MuchoBulls · Post by **MuchoBulls** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:48 pm

Papa Willie wrote:I think the ND folks should relax. Give BK a few years. He worked wonders on a program (Cincy) that had never been worth a single fuck. Give him a chance...

I think one thing that gets overlooked in the time that Kelly was at Cincinnati is how good of a defense that Dantonio left him for a couple of years. It took a year for Kelly to change the offense and they won their first title. The D recruiting sucked under Kelly's watch, but he had the offense to win shootouts.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:00 pm

The only coach to get less than 5 years was Willingham.

The problem is that ND gambled with this hire after 2 shitty hires in a row. They couldn't afford to gamble because as has been stated, trying to land a good coach after this cluster fuck will be very, very difficult.

The defense hasn't been a major issue outside of the Navy game. He was recruiting the defensive side of the ball great, until these two shit sandwiches.

MuchoBulls · Post by **MuchoBulls** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:02 pm

Papa Willie wrote:Here's one thing, though - you keep hiring a new HC every 2-3 years, you can forget getting a seriously good coach. Who in the hell is going to want to put up with that kind of pressure - certainly if they're already established?

Agree with you there 100%

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:21 pm

Yep. And I'm retiring from banging Victoria Secret models.

Mace · Post by **Mace** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:30 pm

Killian wrote:Yep. And I'm retiring from banging Victoria Secret models.

Does "retiring"= no one will hire me?

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:32 am

Killian wrote:Yep. And I'm retiring from banging Victoria Secret models.

Hahahaha! Aren't we all!?

Ty Willingham seems to be Irish fans version of Steve Alford. Oh sure, Bob Davies didn't do well and neither did Charlie, but it seems like you guys are most critical of Willingham- much like Iowa fans are with that little bitch Alford.

Terry in Crapchester · Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:58 pm

TheJON wrote:Ty Willingham seems to be Irish fans version of Steve Alford. Oh sure, Bob Davies didn't do well and neither did Charlie, but it seems like you guys are most critical of Willingham- much like Iowa fans are with that little bitch Alford.

I can't speak for everyone, but that's not really the case for me. For me, Bob Davie is the one that gets my ire the most, for two reasons.

First is that Davie never "got" ND, never really even wanted to "get" ND, and definitely would've preferred the aTm job to the ND job. Now, I'm not knocking Indy Frisco's school, nor am I suggesting that Davie is/was alone in the coaching fraternity in that sentiment. But any coach who would prefer the aTm job to the ND job simply has no business coaching at ND, period. Davie's unfortunate comment about ND needing to "schedule more directional schools" still gets reset about once a week on the ND homer boards. Simply put, he thought ND was, or at least should be, Texas A&M North.

Davie also presided over two unfortunate off-field incidents: ND's first-ever trip to the NCAA woodshed, and a successful age discrimination lawsuit against ND by former OL coach Joe Moore. The former wasn't entirely on Davie, it was pretty much exclusively the result of a single renegade booster, and most of the more egregious acts occurred before Davie was HC. The latter, however, was almost exclusively on Davie, as his own comments provided the lynchpin for the lawsuit.

Second reason is that ND was following up a successful hire (Holtz) and there simply was no reason to fuck that hire up. ND's coaching search at the time should have focused on one name and one name only -- Barry Alvarez, who already had been a successful HC at Wisconsin and had been the DC on Holtz' national championship team at ND. Instead, ND dicked around with a flavor of the month (Gary Barnett), screwed that up, and wound up with Davie by default. Awful.

Willingham, I think, tried to get ND, but struggled with the idea that what was considered a "successful" season at Stanford would not be considered a "successful" season at ND. He was also a terrible recruiter. He had one decent recruiting season at ND -- his first -- followed up by two of the worst recruiting seasons ever at ND. Davie was no great shakes as a recruiter, but Ty made him look good by comparison.

When it came to coaching staffs, Davie and Willingham were opposite sides of the same coin. Davie changed OC's about as often as some of the posters in here change underwear. The result was a schizophrenic game plan that the players never seemed quite able to grasp. Willingham, OTOH, was loyal to his staff to a fault -- literally.

Weis was a little different. He was a ND alum, the first to be HC of ND since Hugh Devore in 1963. That was seen as something of a breath of fresh air at the time, in that there were no concerns about Weis "getting" ND. And Weis had success out of the box in a manner that Davie or Willingham never did. Where Weis faltered, I believe, was in two respects. First was that he never completely grasped the difference between the college game and the pro game, beyond recruiting. He ran his practices more like pro practices, with a minimum of contact and emphasis on schemes. He never seemed quite to understand that college players, unlike their pro counterparts, are not mostly finished products by the time they got to him, and on the need to focus on player development in college. The second manner in which Weis faltered was his assembly of a coaching staff. It seems to me that Weis was more interested in assembling an "all-star" staff than a cohesive unit. Also, in that regard I think he was hurt by Cutcliffe's heart attack. I think he envisioned himself as a CEO-type coach, and Cutcliffe as a sort of go-between between himself and the staff. In that regard, Weis and his OL coach, John Latina, never really seemed to be on the same page during Weis' tenure. Latina, before coming to ND, had been OL coach at Ole Miss under Cutcliffe.

Why did Ty only get three years and the others got five? As opposed to Davie, I think the answer was simple: ND's fanbase was far more impatient by that time than they had been while Davie was coach. They already had five disappointing seasons under Davie, and even the last three under Holtz had been disappointing. By that point, Ty was going to get a relatively short window of opportunity to turn things around.

As opposed to Weis, I think the answer is a bit more complicated. Weis had success out of the box in a manner that Ty or Davie did not, so that got him a mulligan after the awful '07 season. I expected him to be fired after the '08 season, as did many other ND fans, but he wasn't. Why? Two possibilities come to mind. One, Swarbrick was a rookie AD in '08, and perhaps was uncomfortable pulling the trigger on such a high-profile matter. More likely, Swarbrick considered the terms of the buyout he inherited too onerous for ND, and was willing to sacrifice a season in order to renegotiate the buyout. In that regard, it's worth pointing out that Swarbrick's predecessor, Kevin White, was, as AD at ND, the rough equivalent of an unfunny version of George Costanza as Assistant to the Traveling Secretary of the New York Yankees. Under White's watch, ND's BCS payout declined from $14-18 million per BCS bid to $4.5-6.0 million per BCS bid. Further, at one point ND was paying Ty Willingham more money not to coach ND than it was paying Charlie Weis to coach.

In defense of Davie, it should be noted that one thing Davie can't be held responsible for is blowout losses. Using 24 points as the measuring point (admittedly a somewhat arbitrary standard, although 24 points is the maximum number of points a team can earn in three possessions), ND lost 2 games by 24 or more points under Davie, 7 games by 24 or more points under Willingham, and 6 games by 24 or more points under Weis. Going back farther, ND had 1 loss by 24 or more points under Holtz, 2 such losses under Faust. All in all, that means that ND had 5 losses by 24 or more points from 1981 -- 2001 (hardly the most successful period in the history of ND football), and 13 such losses between 2002 and 2009. That alone might be the most disturbing trend.

Papa Willie wrote:Here's one thing, though - you keep hiring a new HC every 2-3 years, you can forget getting a seriously good coach. Who in the hell is going to want to put up with that kind of pressure - certainly if they're already established?

For all the Kelly-bashing you've seen on this thread, you really don't have to worry about that happening at ND. As Killian noted, every ND coach has gotten at least five years except Ty. And short of something happening that would establish cause, e.g., Kelly being responsible for Declan Sullivan's death, committing a crime, ND being in violation of NCAA rules or suffering a sharp decline in player graduation rates, ND won't exercise Kelly's buyout until after the 2012 season, at the earliest.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:53 pm

First was that he never completely grasped the difference between the college game and the pro game, beyond recruiting. He ran his practices more like pro practices, with a minimum of contact and emphasis on schemes.

Ferentz and Saban do this too. Weis, Ferentz, and Saban are all of the Belichik coaching tree. They all run their practices similar to what Belichik does. Nobody is complaining about Ferentz and Saban doing this.