Watching ND football is like voluntary water boarding

[Mace]

Yep. And I'm retiring from banging Victoria Secret models.

Does "retiring"= no one will hire me?

[TheJON]

Yep. And I'm retiring from banging Victoria Secret models.

Hahahaha! Aren't we all!?

Ty Willingham seems to be Irish fans version of Steve Alford. Oh sure, Bob Davies didn't do well and neither did Charlie, but it seems like you guys are most critical of Willingham- much like Iowa fans are with that little bitch Alford.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Ty Willingham seems to be Irish fans version of Steve Alford. Oh sure, Bob Davies didn't do well and neither did Charlie, but it seems like you guys are most critical of Willingham- much like Iowa fans are with that little bitch Alford.

I can't speak for everyone, but that's not really the case for me. For me, Bob Davie is the one that gets my ire the most, for two reasons.

First is that Davie never "got" ND, never really even wanted to "get" ND, and definitely would've preferred the aTm job to the ND job. Now, I'm not knocking Indy Frisco's school, nor am I suggesting that Davie is/was alone in the coaching fraternity in that sentiment. But any coach who would prefer the aTm job to the ND job simply has no business coaching at ND, period. Davie's unfortunate comment about ND needing to "schedule more directional schools" still gets reset about once a week on the ND homer boards. Simply put, he thought ND was, or at least should be, Texas A&M North.

Davie also presided over two unfortunate off-field incidents: ND's first-ever trip to the NCAA woodshed, and a successful age discrimination lawsuit against ND by former OL coach Joe Moore. The former wasn't entirely on Davie, it was pretty much exclusively the result of a single renegade booster, and most of the more egregious acts occurred before Davie was HC. The latter, however, was almost exclusively on Davie, as his own comments provided the lynchpin for the lawsuit.

Second reason is that ND was following up a successful hire (Holtz) and there simply was no reason to fuck that hire up. ND's coaching search at the time should have focused on one name and one name only -- Barry Alvarez, who already had been a successful HC at Wisconsin and had been the DC on Holtz' national championship team at ND. Instead, ND dicked around with a flavor of the month (Gary Barnett), screwed that up, and wound up with Davie by default. Awful.

Willingham, I think, tried to get ND, but struggled with the idea that what was considered a "successful" season at Stanford would not be considered a "successful" season at ND. He was also a terrible recruiter. He had one decent recruiting season at ND -- his first -- followed up by two of the worst recruiting seasons ever at ND. Davie was no great shakes as a recruiter, but Ty made him look good by comparison.

When it came to coaching staffs, Davie and Willingham were opposite sides of the same coin. Davie changed OC's about as often as some of the posters in here change underwear. The result was a schizophrenic game plan that the players never seemed quite able to grasp. Willingham, OTOH, was loyal to his staff to a fault -- literally.

Weis was a little different. He was a ND alum, the first to be HC of ND since Hugh Devore in 1963. That was seen as something of a breath of fresh air at the time, in that there were no concerns about Weis "getting" ND. And Weis had success out of the box in a manner that Davie or Willingham never did. Where Weis faltered, I believe, was in two respects. First was that he never completely grasped the difference between the college game and the pro game, beyond recruiting. He ran his practices more like pro practices, with a minimum of contact and emphasis on schemes. He never seemed quite to understand that college players, unlike their pro counterparts, are not mostly finished products by the time they got to him, and on the need to focus on player development in college. The second manner in which Weis faltered was his assembly of a coaching staff. It seems to me that Weis was more interested in assembling an "all-star" staff than a cohesive unit. Also, in that regard I think he was hurt by Cutcliffe's heart attack. I think he envisioned himself as a CEO-type coach, and Cutcliffe as a sort of go-between between himself and the staff. In that regard, Weis and his OL coach, John Latina, never really seemed to be on the same page during Weis' tenure. Latina, before coming to ND, had been OL coach at Ole Miss under Cutcliffe.

Why did Ty only get three years and the others got five? As opposed to Davie, I think the answer was simple: ND's fanbase was far more impatient by that time than they had been while Davie was coach. They already had five disappointing seasons under Davie, and even the last three under Holtz had been disappointing. By that point, Ty was going to get a relatively short window of opportunity to turn things around.

As opposed to Weis, I think the answer is a bit more complicated. Weis had success out of the box in a manner that Ty or Davie did not, so that got him a mulligan after the awful '07 season. I expected him to be fired after the '08 season, as did many other ND fans, but he wasn't. Why? Two possibilities come to mind. One, Swarbrick was a rookie AD in '08, and perhaps was uncomfortable pulling the trigger on such a high-profile matter. More likely, Swarbrick considered the terms of the buyout he inherited too onerous for ND, and was willing to sacrifice a season in order to renegotiate the buyout. In that regard, it's worth pointing out that Swarbrick's predecessor, Kevin White, was, as AD at ND, the rough equivalent of an unfunny version of George Costanza as Assistant to the Traveling Secretary of the New York Yankees. Under White's watch, ND's BCS payout declined from $14-18 million per BCS bid to $4.5-6.0 million per BCS bid. Further, at one point ND was paying Ty Willingham more money not to coach ND than it was paying Charlie Weis to coach.

In defense of Davie, it should be noted that one thing Davie can't be held responsible for is blowout losses. Using 24 points as the measuring point (admittedly a somewhat arbitrary standard, although 24 points is the maximum number of points a team can earn in three possessions), ND lost 2 games by 24 or more points under Davie, 7 games by 24 or more points under Willingham, and 6 games by 24 or more points under Weis. Going back farther, ND had 1 loss by 24 or more points under Holtz, 2 such losses under Faust. All in all, that means that ND had 5 losses by 24 or more points from 1981 -- 2001 (hardly the most successful period in the history of ND football), and 13 such losses between 2002 and 2009. That alone might be the most disturbing trend.

Here's one thing, though - you keep hiring a new HC every 2-3 years, you can forget getting a seriously good coach. Who in the hell is going to want to put up with that kind of pressure - certainly if they're already established?

For all the Kelly-bashing you've seen on this thread, you really don't have to worry about that happening at ND. As Killian noted, every ND coach has gotten at least five years except Ty. And short of something happening that would establish cause, e.g., Kelly being responsible for Declan Sullivan's death, committing a crime, ND being in violation of NCAA rules or suffering a sharp decline in player graduation rates, ND won't exercise Kelly's buyout until after the 2012 season, at the earliest.

[TheJON]

First was that he never completely grasped the difference between the college game and the pro game, beyond recruiting. He ran his practices more like pro practices, with a minimum of contact and emphasis on schemes.

Ferentz and Saban do this too. Weis, Ferentz, and Saban are all of the Belichik coaching tree. They all run their practices similar to what Belichik does. Nobody is complaining about Ferentz and Saban doing this.

[Killian]

First was that he never completely grasped the difference between the college game and the pro game, beyond recruiting. He ran his practices more like pro practices, with a minimum of contact and emphasis on schemes.

Ferentz and Saban do this too. Weis, Ferentz, and Saban are all of the Belichik coaching tree. They all run their practices similar to what Belichik does. Nobody is complaining about Ferentz and Saban doing this.

Ferentz and Saban also have extensive history and experience in the college game and can teach their kids fundamentals. Weis didn't on any of the above points.

[TheJON]

First was that he never completely grasped the difference between the college game and the pro game, beyond recruiting. He ran his practices more like pro practices, with a minimum of contact and emphasis on schemes.

Ferentz and Saban do this too. Weis, Ferentz, and Saban are all of the Belichik coaching tree. They all run their practices similar to what Belichik does. Nobody is complaining about Ferentz and Saban doing this.

Ferentz and Saban also have extensive history and experience in the college game and can teach their kids fundamentals. Weis didn't on any of the above points.

Good point, but Terry did not mention this in his post. He was specifically calling out Charlie for trying to run Notre Dame practices like a pro team, but there are good college coaches that do this.

By the way, Charlie is doing a nice job in Kansas City. I'm glad Notre Dame fired him. He has the sense to realize his quarterback is one of the worst in the NFL and he's running the ball a lot instead of trying to let Cassel do too much. Todd Haley is a fucking idiot, however. I think that guy drinks heavily before games.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Going back to this . . .

Nobody is just going to walk away from a top 10 program to coach in South Bend.

There was a reason why I referred specifically to Saban, as Killian alluded. His history suggests he won't be at 'Bama too much longer, and I think even Sudden Sam doesn't think (as opposed to hope) that he will.

Will he come to ND, if/when he leaves 'Bama, and if the ND job happens to be open at the time? That's another question, but I don't think you can rule it out categorically.

Saban's niche seems to be in resurrecting once-proud programs that have fallen on hard times. He did that at 'Bama, he did it (albeit to a lesser extent) at LSU, and he even did it at the school you root for but pretend not to, albeit to an even lesser extent than at LSU.

ND, at least right now, would seem to be tailor-made for him in that regard. And who else is out there that falls into that category?

Michigan? Yep.

Nebraska? You coulda made that argument through last year. But they're ranked #6 in the most recent BCS poll, so I suppose an argument already could be made that Nebraska is back.

Florida State? First year with Fisher, after Bowden was there a lifetime, so I don't think any change is forthcoming there.

Miami? Maybe, but there's been some progress under Shannon, who's a product of Da U. I don't see a lot of pressure to replace him.

USC? Depends on timing, I guess. Right now, no. But a few years down the road, who knows?

Others? Colorado, Tennessee, Texas A&M, and UCLA -- maybe. All considerably lesser lights in college football, of course. Although aTm and 'Bama have an interesting history of common coaches -- Bear, Fran and I believe Gene Stallings coached at both places as well. I don't think even Saban has balls enough to jump directly from 'Bama to Tennessee, though.

With respect to the NFL, he's been there, done that, and it didn't work out considerably well for him the first time around. I don't see him trying that again.

So that leaves Michigan, USC and aTm as the only possible landing places I can see for Saban, besides ND, with USC a possibility only if the next stop is still a few years away. Not saying he'll wind up at ND, but stranger things than that certainly have happened.

[Carson]

Are you saying that Saban is a high-dollar whore?

Jimmy Sexton is his pimp.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

I doubt Saban goes anywhere for awhile. He reached the pinnacle and flamed out. I'd guess the whole NFL experience grounded him a bit, and now he's back in the arena he belongs, with a great gig, and no conceivable reason to leave.

When you look at the trend of his departures, he was about the bigger and better gig. NFL is greater than LSU is greater than MSU. He took the Bama gig once he hit his ceiling and bounced back to earth. The ND job is not bigger and better than Bama, so following that trend I couldn't see him leaving...though you can't completely rule it out.

[TheJON]

I doubt Saban goes anywhere for awhile. He reached the pinnacle and flamed out. I'd guess the whole NFL experience grounded him a bit, and now he's back in the arena he belongs, with a great gig, and no conceivable reason to leave.

When you look at the trend of his departures, he was about the bigger and better gig. NFL is greater than LSU is greater than MSU. He took the Bama gig once he hit his ceiling and bounced back to earth. The ND job is not bigger and better than Bama, so following that trend I couldn't see him leaving...though you can't completely rule it out.

You would figure eventually he would get tired of moving and stick at one place. But you could say the same thing about Larry Brown. Some coaches just get bored of a place and want something new after a few years.

[Screw_Michigan]

Going back to this . . .

Nobody is just going to walk away from a top 10 program to coach in South Bend.

There was a reason why I referred specifically to Saban, as Killian alluded. His history suggests he won't be at 'Bama too much longer, and I think even Sudden Sam doesn't think (as opposed to hope) that he will.

You ND fans are so incredibly delusional, it'd be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic. What part of NO ONE WORTH A SHIT WANTS TO COACH AT ND do you fail to understand? Jesus.

At least you graduated from ND. I'll give you that.

[Killian]

Yeah, everyone thought Brian Kelly was a shitty coach and a terrrible hire.

And you graduated from a glorified high school.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Yeah, everyone thought Brian Kelly was a shitty coach and a terrrible hire.

And you graduated from a glorified high school.

And he roots for Michigan State, but pretends not to, so he can rag on you for rooting for ND.