Pitt and Syracuse to ACC

[Dinsdale]

The point is that the student was still able to earn money in his chosen field while attending college.

D'OH!!!!!!


Are you intentionally trying to rival AP in number of :facepalms: in an evening?

As one of the people who hold the purse strings here -- I wish LaMike all the best in his business ventures. If he wants to play football at the school I'm part-owner of, he needs to abide by the rules me and the other millions who own the school agreed to.

Period. EOS.


Lotsa guys go to the NFL and attend college in their free time. LaMike (or insert 10,000 other names) are free to do the same...

And as a "devil's advocate" entry -- they should thank their lucky stars that We, The People don't require them to sign a 5-year agreement for the privilege of attending our university on our dime, which would seize any and all sports-revenues they generate within 4 years of signing a schollie agreement.

Where your argument fails, is you're forgetting whose money it is in the first place, and who owns the schools. WE make the rules -- not you, not Nike, not Mark Emmert.

We've now established that any sort of meaningful compensation for their "services" is wayyyyyy illegal, and that allowing outside endorsement deals may possibly be legal, but laughably stupid (although wayyyyyy in my favor... might as well rename it the National Collegiate Ducks Association)...

The points you brought up are pretty much a joke... what else you got?

[Dinsdale]

Don't know about yinz, but the state money spigot has been throttled in PA for state-related schools.

Complete aside (apologies) but same here -- yet the state U staff just got HUUUUUUGE raises across the board, when the system is broke. The SEIU bought the elections here in a big way... if we weren't so stoned all the time, we'd make Wisconsin look like the kiddie-pool of politics.


Maybe NCAA athletes should join the SEIU -- it'd be a veritable Vantopia.

[Van]

Dins, who is this "we" of which you speak?

Sincerely Yours,
USC, Stanford, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Baylor, Vanderbilt et al.

Not that your insipid braying even attempts to address the real issue at hand; namely, that what you're calling "illegal" soon will not be. Before too long here, taxpayer dollars won't be required to foot LaMichael's Coke & Hookers note. Nike will pay it directly, and in even greater sums than they already do.

Failing that, stipends are on the way. That one already seems a fait accompli.

[Killian]

One thing is for certain, and that's that we can't continue to ask these kids to live on Top Ramen while their non-athletic scholarship classmates are free to earn countless fortunes while still attending college. Such a blatant inequity makes absolutely no sense, and will not stand up to scrutiny.

Hyperbole much? These kids living on "Top Ramen"? Give me a fucking break.

Yes, they should be able to have jobs in the offseason like any other college student. No, they shouldn't be paid. Ever.

[Dinsdale]

Failing that, stipends are on the way. That one already seems a fait accompli.

Unlikely. If they do, it will be miniscule.

But I like your thinking -- let Oregon, PokeU, Texas, tOSU, UM, and an elite few battle for the championship every year. Relegate about 110 of the 120 teams down to 1AA...

Pure Vantopia.

[Van]

Pollyanna, wake the fuck up. We're already there. We may as well formalize it.

[Dinsdale]

Pollyanna, wake the fuck up. We're already there. We may as well formalize it.

Sure thing, boss.

Just as soon as I get done bribing my congressman and running a ponzi scheme legally.


Nice logic, bro.

[Van]

So, let's see here...

2010: Auburn
2009: Alabama
2008: Florida
2007: LSU
2006: Florida
2005: Texas
2004: USC
2003: USC and LSU
2002: Ohio State
2001: Miami
2000: Oklahoma

You were saying?

[M2]

So, let's see here...

2010: Auburn
2009: Alabama
2008: Florida
2007: LSU
2006: Florida
2005: Texas
2004: USC
2003: USC and LSU
2002: Ohio State
2001: Miami
2000: Oklahoma

You were saying?

"....Hey you, yeah you.... trench mouth... are you trying to make a point..."

[Dinsdale]

You were saying?

I forget what I was saying, due to laughter at the inclusion of USC... NoCalSnowTwice.


I'll take "name the team on that list that didn't win a championship for $1000, Alex."

[Van]

Obfuscate all you want, but we all know who won those years. The point being, do you see a whole lot of have-nots on that list? I don't. I see nothing but bluebloods there. Moving forward, that isn't about to change.

What soon will change is the draconian notion that student-athletes cannot earn and/or receive any additional monies in-season.

[Dinsdale]

we all know who won those years.

The Tigers and the Vacants?


So... paying players is going to keep the bluebloods from getting the upper hand...

how?


Your logic must have taken advice on getting to Muir Woods from Toolio, cause that shit be MIA.

[Van]

No, I'm not saying that paying players is going to prevent the bluebloods from getting the upper hand. I'm saying that they already have it, and they've had it for a long time, as evidenced by that list. Stretch that list back as long as you wish. It never changes. It's always included the same cast of characters.

The point being, as I said before...we're already there. We may as well formalize it. It's time for the NCAA and its archaic notions to take a well-deserved dirtnap, and they know the writing is on the wall. Rather than allow themselves to be shitcanned right out of existence, those vultures will simply bend as much as they need to in order to maintain their tenuous foothold in the game.

[Dinsdale]

Stretch that list back as long as you wish. It never changes. It's always included the same cast of characters.

Fuck right the fuck off, you fucking fuckfaced fuck.


Sin,
TiC and Killian

[Van]

[Dinsdale]

Stretch that list back as long as you wish. It never changes. It's always included the same cast of characters.

Fuck right the fuck off, you fucking fuckfaced fuck.


Sin,
TiC and Killian

Yeah, what they said.

Sin,
MClub, WSteve, BRef, et. al.







Oh yes I di'id!

[Left Seater]

Van, not to be a total ass, but when did you sign your LOI and athletic scholarship? So where do you get off telling those of us who have signed them what is best for us when you haven't walked in our shoes? Further your comments like eating top ramen or athletes don't have any spending money are without merit and if you truly believe that then there is no point in going further in this discussion. Dins has already pointed out how wrong you are on many of these items.

So what is it exactly you want for us student athletes? Don't answer that yet, read below so you know exactly what situation we are in before you tell us what we need.

Let's first remember that athletic scholarships are one year renewable like all merit based scholarships are. So if we don't like what is going on or feel that we are being held back we can bail after a year. Further we fully understand what we are signing up for. We know that we are giving up certain things in exchange for compensation for putting on the uniform. Yes, we are compensated.

So now let's walk thru our compensation.

First, tuition and fees are paid in full. That is huge and the value changes from UTEP to USC. Second housing is paid for. I can choose to live on campus and never see a bill. But let's say I want to live off campus. In that case each school has an amount based on the average cost of their on campus lodging and the host city cost of living. So using Houston I was given a stipend of $800 per month for off campus living. So if I choose a place that is only $600 per month I get to keep $200 per month. But let's say that I get together with a couple other players and we decide to live together. Now the three of us rent a three bedroom place that costs $1500 per month. We each pocket $300 per month. If we really want to get over or we have a girlfriend or sibling or friend that also lives around campus then we might go 6 guys in that same three bedroom place and each pay $250 per month knowing there will not be more than a few guys there a night. Now we each pocket $550 per month.

Then we move on to meals. I can choose to eat on campus and get an unlimited meal pass from the school. Or since I live off campus I can choose to have a meal stipend instead. Now this again varies by location but is as high as $44 per day in Boston and NYC. In Houston it was $32 per day for me. $960 per month. I would then take $260 of that and buy a campus meal punch card. I would then eat breakfast over in the football room, fruit, cereal, oatmeal, waffles, toast, etc. This stuff was out all the time for us to snack on. Then I would eat lunch in the campus cafeteria. That left me an additional $700 per month for eating dinner or putting into my pocket.

Then there is the stipend for books. All athletes are given enough money to pay for brand new books and supplies for each of their classes. But if I choose to buy used books, I can pocket the difference. Further, the football library or tutors may have copies of those books. If so I can use them for the semester at no cost and I pocket all of the book money.

Since I also lived off campus I was given further stipends for a transit pass, laundry, and electric/water. Add all of this up and it was an additional $250 per month. So each month I was pocketing over $1400 per. So I was making 17000 per year tax free. So I need to work like "normal" students for what reason again? Then on top of this I get free clothes, shoes, and gifts. So tell me again how I am not being compensated fairly?

It gets even worse if we look at the value of the full ride vs the amount of time allowed on my sport during the year. Each D1-A school is allowed 23 weeks of "in season" activities which are limited to 20 hours per week. The additional 39 weeks are limited to no more than 8 hours of activity per week. That is just about 700 hours per year of required activity. Granted each school has different costs to attend so the value of the full ride scholarship is going to be different based on each schools, but here are a few examples:

UMich $53,006 for out of state upper division / 700 hours is $75.7

ATM $36,672 for out of state / 700 hours is $52.39

RICE $50,171 for everyone / 700 hours is $71.67

So I was compensated at $71 per hour. Where else in college can someone work for that amount? But let's say the $71 per hour and the tax free money I have isn't enough. I can still work. If I make over $2000 per year during the school year then the university can deduct the difference from my stipends. Or I can work in the summer (like I did for two summers) and make money.

A couple other things you need to remember in this discussion. Very few SCHOLARSHIP athletes ever go on to play in the pros. Per the NCAA here are the percentages:

Men's Basketball 1.2%
Women's Basketball 1.0%
Football 1.8%
Baseball 9.4%
Men's Hockey 3.7%
Men's Soccer 1.7%

Also very few athletic departments actually make any money. One of the programs that most think always make money, Texas ATM, had to borrow $16 million from the university to meet its budget as recently as 2006. If ATM is struggling to make it to break even, how are others doing?

So what exactly was it you want for scholarship athletes? Salary? Additional stipend?

PSU was at least thinking outside of the box, but the problem there is that doesn't get you around Title IX. Individuals and corporations have already made direct payments to athletic department contractors, ie the construction company that is renovating the stadium, in an attempt to circumvent Title IX, but it failed. So include in your answer how you are going to repeal Title IX or pay all college athletes. Also discuss how you will change the amateurism definition that currently governs college sports, because it expressly prohibits scholarship athletes from making money off of their likeness or jersey. Further tell us where all this additional money will come from.

In my experience there is no need to pay college athletes. We were compensated fairly for putting on the uniform. Nor are there these athletes with zero money pan handling in rags for change to buy top ramen.

[PSUFAN]

Lefty, what if you had suffered a catastrophic injury, and you needed care/coverage? Here's a section of the recent Atlantic Monthly article that (should be) making the rounds:

The Myth of the “Student-Athlete”

Today, much of the NCAA’s moral authority—indeed much of the justification for its existence—is vested in its claim to protect what it calls the “student-athlete.” The term is meant to conjure the nobility of amateurism, and the precedence of scholarship over athletic endeavor. But the origins of the “student-athlete” lie not in a disinterested ideal but in a sophistic formulation designed, as the sports economist Andrew Zimbalist has written, to help the NCAA in its “fight against workmen’s compensation insurance claims for injured football players.”

“We crafted the term student-athlete,” Walter Byers himself wrote, “and soon it was embedded in all NCAA rules and interpretations.” The term came into play in the 1950s, when the widow of Ray Dennison, who had died from a head injury received while playing football in Colorado for the Fort Lewis A&M Aggies, filed for workmen’s-compensation death benefits. Did his football scholarship make the fatal collision a “work-related” accident? Was he a school employee, like his peers who worked part-time as teaching assistants and bookstore cashiers? Or was he a fluke victim of extracurricular pursuits? Given the hundreds of incapacitating injuries to college athletes each year, the answers to these questions had enormous consequences. The Colorado Supreme Court ultimately agreed with the school’s contention that he was not eligible for benefits, since the college was “not in the football business.”

The term student-athlete was deliberately ambiguous. College players were not students at play (which might understate their athletic obligations), nor were they just athletes in college (which might imply they were professionals). That they were high-performance athletes meant they could be forgiven for not meeting the academic standards of their peers; that they were students meant they did not have to be compensated, ever, for anything more than the cost of their studies. Student-athlete became the NCAA’s signature term, repeated constantly in and out of courtrooms.

Using the “student-athlete” defense, colleges have compiled a string of victories in liability cases. On the afternoon of October 26, 1974, the Texas Christian University Horned Frogs were playing the Alabama Crimson Tide in Birmingham, Alabama. Kent Waldrep, a TCU running back, carried the ball on a “Red Right 28” sweep toward the Crimson Tide’s sideline, where he was met by a swarm of tacklers. When Waldrep regained consciousness, Bear Bryant, the storied Crimson Tide coach, was standing over his hospital bed. “It was like talking to God, if you’re a young football player,” Waldrep recalled.

Waldrep was paralyzed: he had lost all movement and feeling below his neck. After nine months of paying his medical bills, Texas Christian refused to pay any more, so the Waldrep family coped for years on dwindling charity.

Through the 1990s, from his wheelchair, Waldrep pressed a lawsuit for workers’ compensation. (He also, through heroic rehabilitation efforts, recovered feeling in his arms, and eventually learned to drive a specially rigged van. “I can brush my teeth,” he told me last year, “but I still need help to bathe and dress.”) His attorneys haggled with TCU and the state worker-compensation fund over what constituted employment. Clearly, TCU had provided football players with equipment for the job, as a typical employer would—but did the university pay wages, withhold income taxes on his financial aid, or control work conditions and performance? The appeals court finally rejected Waldrep’s claim in June of 2000, ruling that he was not an employee because he had not paid taxes on financial aid that he could have kept even if he quit football. (Waldrep told me school officials “said they recruited me as a student, not an athlete,” which he says was absurd.)

The long saga vindicated the power of the NCAA’s “student-athlete” formulation as a shield, and the organization continues to invoke it as both a legalistic defense and a noble ideal. Indeed, such is the term’s rhetorical power that it is increasingly used as a sort of reflexive mantra against charges of rabid hypocrisy.

If players are having difficulty getting schools to do the right thing in cases like this, then we have a problem that needs to be addressed.

[Left Seater]

Totally agree with you. There is reform that needs to happen with the LOI and athletic scholarships. It doesn't include paying players or them getting a cut of licensing monies.

First off athletes should not be signing one year deals. They should be signing 4 year deals that will continue to pay their tuition, fees, books, room and board, if they are injured or the school decides not to renew their athletic scholarship. Further all schools should be required to pay full medical and long term disability for all student athletes. That would solve the issues of the TCU athlete in the story above. The schools should not be required to pay medical or continue LTD insurance once the athlete is done with his/her eligibility. However, they should be required to continue paying for the insurance for 24 months if the athlete is not fully recovered from an injury and further treatment is likely down the line.

The problem is that each school has the ability to determine this on their own. The NCAA doesn't mandate this. I know that had I been injured at RICE such that I could no longer play I was still going to be allowed to continue on my ride. The school offers this to every full ride athlete. Those that are on partial at RICE would get that percentage of their costs paid. I was also covered by the schools insurance program.

Every school should be required to have the RICE model.

[Van]

Van, not to be a total ass

:grin:

Always the tip-off for when someone is fixing to be just that...

but when did you sign your LOI and athletic scholarship? So where do you get off telling those of us who have signed them what is best for us when you haven't walked in our shoes?

Countless high-profile athletes who have "walked in your shoes" have made my point for me. Their stories are legion, and they all revolve around not even having enough money for pizza even as their non-scholarship buddies are enjoying the entire college experience.

The Top Ramen reference was taken directly from two different former college athletes, Tom Tolbert and Eric Byrnes. Tolbert was a star hoops player at the University of Arizona. Byrnes was a baseball player at UCLA. They both described how dead-ass broke they were during college, laughing about the times they were forced to go the Top Ramen route. More to the point, they admitted that they had more money than many of their teammates since they both came from relatively well-to-do families. They described how a lot of their friends who came from broken homes had fuckall spending money. They said this was especially the case with the football players, whose workload was simply insane.

I've also spoken with Anthony Munoz and Roy Foster, and they described the same thing. There are so many athletes describing this very situation that you'll have to excuse me if I take their collective word. The fact that even the NCAA is now taking it to heart ought to tell you something.

Further your comments like eating top ramen or athletes don't have any spending money are without merit

Categorical bullshit. If they don't arrive with any spending money, they don't have any spending money. They cannot work. They cannot earn any money. Their scholly will not afford them a car and sufficient money to live the life of a normal college student.

and if you truly believe that then there is no point in going further in this discussion. Dins has already pointed out how wrong you are on many of these items.

And Dins' point was summarily dismissed. His entire argument centered around "illegality," which the NCAA can make moot in a single meeting. His other point was based on the Haves getting over if players were allowed to market themselves, and that was also dismissed.

So what is it exactly you want for us student athletes?

Equality. A student-athlete should have the right to earn an income while still in school. Whether that income is derived from taking a job or receiving an endorsement check from Nike, so be it. All student-athletes regardless of their sport should enjoy the same freedoms as their non-scholarship classmates.

Beyond that, a realistic stipend for all college athletes is in no way unreasonable.

Don't answer that yet, read below so you know exactly what situation we are in before you tell us what we need.

Like I said, there's you, Lefty, then there are the countless others who claim that yes, they do need additional financial help. That's on top of the secondary issue regarding the ridiculous situation whereby a Tim Tebow can literally make millions for his university while receiving none of the proceeds. What, his UF education in any way, shape or form is worth the amount of money he continues to make for the university?

Let's first remember that athletic scholarships are one year renewable like all merit based scholarships are. So if we don't like what is going on or feel that we are being held back we can bail after a year.

Except that in the case of football and basketball a student-athlete cannot bail to begin his chosen profession, not after only one year. He is forced by NFL/NBA guidelines to remain in their non-paid minor league pipeline until a sufficient number of years have passed following their graduation from high school. Their only alternative is to leave school and either do nothing or play in some other minor league.

Further we fully understand what we are signing up for. We know that we are giving up certain things in exchange for compensation for putting on the uniform. Yes, we are compensated.

Insufficiently; a notion which is finally dawning on the NCAA.

So now let's walk thru our compensation.

First, tuition and fees are paid in full. That is huge and the value changes from UTEP to USC. Second housing is paid for. I can choose to live on campus and never see a bill. But let's say I want to live off campus. In that case each school has an amount based on the average cost of their on campus lodging and the host city cost of living. So using Houston I was given a stipend of $800 per month for off campus living. So if I choose a place that is only $600 per month I get to keep $200 per month. But let's say that I get together with a couple other players and we decide to live together. Now the three of us rent a three bedroom place that costs $1500 per month. We each pocket $300 per month. If we really want to get over or we have a girlfriend or sibling or friend that also lives around campus then we might go 6 guys in that same three bedroom place and each pay $250 per month knowing there will not be more than a few guys there a night. Now we each pocket $550 per month.

Then we move on to meals. I can choose to eat on campus and get an unlimited meal pass from the school. Or since I live off campus I can choose to have a meal stipend instead. Now this again varies by location but is as high as $44 per day in Boston and NYC. In Houston it was $32 per day for me. $960 per month. I would then take $260 of that and buy a campus meal punch card. I would then eat breakfast over in the football room, fruit, cereal, oatmeal, waffles, toast, etc. This stuff was out all the time for us to snack on. Then I would eat lunch in the campus cafeteria. That left me an additional $700 per month for eating dinner or putting into my pocket.

Then there is the stipend for books. All athletes are given enough money to pay for brand new books and supplies for each of their classes. But if I choose to buy used books, I can pocket the difference. Further, the football library or tutors may have copies of those books. If so I can use them for the semester at no cost and I pocket all of the book money.

Since I also lived off campus I was given further stipends for a transit pass, laundry, and electric/water. Add all of this up and it was an additional $250 per month. So each month I was pocketing over $1400 per. So I was making 17000 per year tax free. So I need to work like "normal" students for what reason again? Then on top of this I get free clothes, shoes, and gifts. So tell me again how I am not being compensated fairly?

Simple. Not everyone gets what you got, and not everyone can get by on what you can. Moreover, everything you described there is literally a drop in the bucket compared to the money Vince Young brought to the coffers of UT. All the while, he wasn't even allowed to work at McDonald's, despite the fact that most of his classmates were free to do so.

It gets even worse if we look at the value of the full ride vs the amount of time allowed on my sport during the year. Each D1-A school is allowed 23 weeks of "in season" activities which are limited to 20 hours per week. The additional 39 weeks are limited to no more than 8 hours of activity per week. That is just about 700 hours per year of required activity. Granted each school has different costs to attend so the value of the full ride scholarship is going to be different based on each schools, but here are a few examples:

UMich $53,006 for out of state upper division / 700 hours is $75.7

ATM $36,672 for out of state / 700 hours is $52.39

RICE $50,171 for everyone / 700 hours is $71.67

So I was compensated at $71 per hour. Where else in college can someone work for that amount? But let's say the $71 per hour and the tax free money I have isn't enough. I can still work. If I make over $2000 per year during the school year then the university can deduct the difference from my stipends. Or I can work in the summer (like I did for two summers) and make money.

A couple other things you need to remember in this discussion. Very few SCHOLARSHIP athletes ever go on to play in the pros. Per the NCAA here are the percentages:

Men's Basketball 1.2%
Women's Basketball 1.0%
Football 1.8%
Baseball 9.4%
Men's Hockey 3.7%
Men's Soccer 1.7%

Also very few athletic departments actually make any money. One of the programs that most think always make money, Texas ATM, had to borrow $16 million from the university to meet its budget as recently as 2006. If ATM is struggling to make it to break even, how are others doing?

So what exactly was it you want for scholarship athletes? Salary? Additional stipend?

We're reduced to talking about whether Cougar High will be able to move forward with their stadium project contingent upon Case Keenum's availability to suit up on Saturdays, and you're talking prorated hourly wages?

PSU was at least thinking outside of the box, but the problem there is that doesn't get you around Title IX. Individuals and corporations have already made direct payments to athletic department contractors, ie the construction company that is renovating the stadium, in an attempt to circumvent Title IX, but it failed. So include in your answer how you are going to repeal Title IX or pay all college athletes. Also discuss how you will change the amateurism definition that currently governs college sports, because it expressly prohibits scholarship athletes from making money off of their likeness or jersey. Further tell us where all this additional money will come from.

Like I said, the NCAA needs to take a dirtnap. Once that's accomplished, the rest falls into place. Until then, and rather than face such a fate, the NCAA will be forced to bend. The process has already begun. They know that the status quo cannot persist, so they're looking into various forms of stipends and whatsuch.

This doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's cause and effect.

In my experience there is no need to pay college athletes. We were compensated fairly for putting on the uniform. Nor are there these athletes with zero money pan handling in rags for change to buy top ramen.

Unfortunately, your experience isn't universal. There are untold numbers of underprivileged student-athletes who scoff at your experiences.

And you still haven't addressed the insane inequity of a a guy who makes millions for his school while receiving nothing but a scholarship that will likely only land him an entry-level position working the counter at Hertz rent-a-car. Is that UF degree in Social Studies really worth the money Tim Tebow(tm) brought and continues to bring to the university?

[PSUFAN]

Totally agree with you. There is reform that needs to happen with the LOI and athletic scholarships. It doesn't include paying players or them getting a cut of licensing monies.

First off athletes should not be signing one year deals. They should be signing 4 year deals that will continue to pay their tuition, fees, books, room and board, if they are injured or the school decides not to renew their athletic scholarship. Further all schools should be required to pay full medical and long term disability for all student athletes. That would solve the issues of the TCU athlete in the story above. The schools should not be required to pay medical or continue LTD insurance once the athlete is done with his/her eligibility. However, they should be required to continue paying for the insurance for 24 months if the athlete is not fully recovered from an injury and further treatment is likely down the line.

The problem is that each school has the ability to determine this on their own. The NCAA doesn't mandate this. I know that had I been injured at RICE such that I could no longer play I was still going to be allowed to continue on my ride. The school offers this to every full ride athlete. Those that are on partial at RICE would get that percentage of their costs paid. I was also covered by the schools insurance program.

Every school should be required to have the RICE model.

Thanks, well-said indeed. My fear is that while it's good that the issues are being more clearly delineated, the process of reform will stall because most folks won't get past the "Paying players? HOGWASH!!" element.

You have a valuable perspective on this issue, and I think your call for reform and what it should entail is one that fans of college sports should definitely take in. Did you ever think about writing an opinion spot or a blog entry on the topic?

[Left Seater]

I haven't really given it much thought. I never considered myself much of a writer and I don't have much of an ax to grind.

A few years back I used to post the top 10 changes needed to help college football each summer. That lead to a lot of spam and the like so I stopped posting it. More recently with my play by play work and history as a college football player and college official, a number of radio stations will have me on to discuss issues. One of those discussed is often paying athletes and scholarship reform. Most fans are surprised that as a former athlete I am against paying players.

That said, I don't see schools paying players anytime soon, so there isn't a need to get all worked up. I would venture to guess that the majority of former scholarship athletes are against paying the players. You don't see all the talking heads going on and on about it. You do hear a few, but most of them have another agenda. There are plenty of Van's out there though that think they know better than the athletes and make some noise, but again the school presidents and coaches aren't listening. I guess if/when they did, I would think more about speaking out.

[Killian]

"I'm going to dismiss everything said by someone who actually went through this process, and take the word of someone I have never met."

Sin,
Van

Those kids that are working while in school are doing so to put themselves through school and pay tuition, something the athletes don't have to do. If they want money, they can take out pell grants or need based loans student loans. The loans they can then pay back after graduation.

And you want to go the "X player made millions for his school" route? That shit happens all the time in the professional world. Guys who come up with patents for their companies that result in millions of dollars in revenue get their salary and that's it, because that's their job.

College Football is an unpaid internship for the NFL. If you don't like it, don't do it. If you want to be an agent at IMG, you have to do a summers worth of work or longer, for free. You want to work for Lucasfilm? Same thing. And not everyone who gets those internships gets a fulltime job after school.

And if you're going to pay Tim Tebow $3000 a month because of the revenue he generates for UF, what do you pay the 3rd string guard who's on scholarship that will never play? The same $3000? Even if you want to pay them $2000 a month, your athetic budget just went up $170K per month.

And those kids can work in the summer. Yes, they should be allowed to work in the offseason. But they can work in the summer and bank all of that money to use when they can't work.

The "poor student athlete" living hand to mouth is a fucking myth.

[Van]

Right, Lefty, my thoughts are based entirely on some wild, kneejerk reaction. No accounts from former student-athletes have contributed to them. I'm pulling this out of thin air, as are, apparently, a number of conference commissioners and the president of the NCAA.

Regarding your feelings on the subject matter, as well as those of some of your peers? Retired professional athletes often tend to resent the money and benefits enjoyed by today's athletes. That fact hasn't prevented the advent of those increased benefits, has it?

"They don't need it! I got by just fine!" can be your shouted mantra to the heavens, and it won't change what's surely coming.

[Screw_Michigan]

Unpaid internships are also bullshit and should be illegal as well.

[Van]

Killian, what part of "I've spoken directly to..." did you miss?

And no, it is no myth that many student-athletes are dirt poor. Many of these people are already married with kids, and their scholarship won't even begin to cover their total expenses. Not every student-athlete comes from a perfect home with a secure support group and no additional financial responsibilities.

Jesus, what sort of laughably insulated world do you live in?

[Goober McTuber]

Jesus, what sort of laughably insulated world do you live in?

[MuchoBulls]

UConn is sniffing at the ACC door as well. The Big Least - from a hoops perspective, the only viable perspective remaining for them - can't take any more hits.

Sounds like Fredo is doing their best to block UConn.

[Van]

Goobs, upon further review, I think I would've preferred to go with 'sheltered.' :grin:

[Killian]

Killian, what part of "I've spoken directly to..." did you miss?

And no, it is no myth that many student-athletes are dirt poor. Many of these people are already married with kids, and their scholarship won't even begin to cover their total expenses. Not every student-athlete comes from a perfect home with a secure support group and no additional financial responsibilities.

Jesus, what sort of laughably insulated world do you live in?

Link? I'd like to see the numbers of student athletes who are already married with kids.

I apologize. Talking directly with someone once should absolutley be taken over someone who actually went through the process. My fault.

And I'll re-phraze. Football and basketball players living hand to mouth is a fucking myth. There are plenty of ways for them to legally get money, it's up to them to research and utilize them.

[Van]

I guess it comes down to the definitions of 'poor' and 'hand to mouth.' I know for a fact that many student-athletes decry their inability even to take their GF out for a pizza, and yes, many do describe their Top Ramen days.

Keep in mind, these are college kids we're talking about, many of whom are not only dirt poor but plum stupid. Neither they nor their nonexistent parents are exactly savvy enough to avail themselves to whatever meager resources are out there.

And don't kid yourself, Killian. Many college kids already have children, not to mention other family members who rely on them for care, financial and otherwise. They aren't all Lefty.

[Killian]

Van, you continue to change the goal posts. Yes, they decry their ability to not take their girl out, and I'll call bullshit everytime. Save some money and take her out.

So now we need to pay them, not because money isn't available to them, but because they're "plum stupid"? No thanks. You want to put a program in place that shows these kids how to manage the money they get, so be it. But have some personal fucking responsibility and accountability for your money. Hmm, I wonder why over 85% of NFL players are broke by their second year of retirement?

What happens is these kids have been BMOC their whole lives and get a sense of entitlement and feel they deserve to be paid. They start acting like shit is owed to them because they play football. If they're good enough to make it to the NFL, they will get theirs. If they're not, hopefully they used the $100k-200k gift that they earned.

[Van]

Can't disagree with any of that, obviously. Unfortunately, those are merely the extremes. In the meantime, the NCAA is currently discussing the financial plight of the mainstream student-athlete.

[Left Seater]

Equality. A student-athlete should have the right to earn an income while still in school. Whether that income is derived from taking a job or receiving an endorsement check from Nike, so be it. All student-athletes regardless of their sport should enjoy the same freedoms as their non-scholarship classmates.

Wrong, you want even more special status for athletes. Student athletes will never be on the same plane as their non-scholarship classmates. College students who work do so to pay their bills. Student athletes on a full ride have no bills. But as I pointed out full ride athletes can work. If they earn over a certain amount it comes back out of their stipend. Further any former athlete that says they had to eat top ramen is lying. They all have the ability to eat the same meals their non-scholarship classmates get in the school cafeterias. It makes good press to say they are starving, but it isn't true.

Further you keep talking about this full college experience. Cars, meals out, entertainment, etc. Maybe that was your college experience, but outside of the Greek system that isn't the college experience for most. Lots of non athletes don't have cars, can't eat off campus and don't take spring break trips.

But if these college athletes really are as poor as you claim, why don't more of the apply for Pell Grants or other state and fed grants that don't count against the scholarship limits? The Pell Grants are just free money that can be spent on anything. The reason is we don't need the money. Everything is taken care of.

You continue to ignore the fact that any employee makes money for their employer not themselves. Unless you work for yourself you are making money for your company not you. Further you haven't touched Title IX which you will have to address to get anything you want. But besides that how do you decide who gets paid what? Does the FB or OL get anything? Few if anyone is going to buy the left tackles jersey, but he may be the reason the RB is racking up the yards. Again it is a no go.

Van if what you want were to come true there would not be college sports anymore there would be minor leagues. If you want to start paying players and allow them to sign endorsement deals college sports as we know it will end.

[Dinsdale]

Did Van just talked about an "insulated world"?


The funny here just took a huge leap.

I'm now picturing the entire employee roster at a McDonald's, some of whom are unable to cover the expense of a family they bred but couldn't afford, marching right up to McD's headquarters and whining about it with "but you guys are making millions!"

Because for some odd reason, Van seems to think that NCAA football players have been chained to a weight bench.

Van, you DO realize that any player who the team wants on the roster is more than welcome to opt out of his schollie and go make all the money he wants, right?

Yet, few seem to do that... I'll give you a big ol' guess as to why? (HINT: it involves economics). I'm sure there's examples, but the only one that comes to mind was Greg Anthony at UNLV, who made more printing teeshirts than his schollie was worth.


Oh, those poor, starving NCAA football players, who are forced to eat ramen when they're too tired to walk down to the 24/7 free buffet they get as compensation. And having no spending money? The fucking OUTRAGE!!!! They should be living in the disposable-income-Vantopia that their "non-scholarship buddies" are enjoying... you know, including the free tutors, special buildings, sponsored travel... you know, the "entire college experience."

And Van seems to still be under the impression that the NCAA has the legal authority to overrule Congress and the SCOTUS.


But Van is nothing if not a narcissist, and true to form, he's deluded himself into an opinion that concludes that he hasn't gotten his ass kicked up one side and down the other on the subject... the word "delusional" comes to mind.

But let's just take your idea to its conclusion, Van -- which students at School X would you send home to make your idea a reality? We'll hand you the roll, and YOU get to be the one who sends poor kids (you know, the ones that don't get free rooom and board and books) packing, so some other kids can get paid to attend the same school.


Who's it going to be? That women's softball player you give the big FO to might be the one that cures the cancer you may get... think this one over carefully. But you have to make the decision -- who gets sent to work at Walmart so your vision of "fairness" comes to fruition? You going to do it by GPA? Which majors you deem more important? Social background?

[Dinsdale]

and yes, many do describe their Top Ramen days.

Which is then followed by the story of how they walked 20 miles through the snow (in SoCal) to get to class, uphill both ways?

Jeebus, Van... sucker for hyperbole, much?

I'm going to let you in on a little secret about those former student-athletes describing their Top Ramen days...


they're fucking lying.

I'm not sure which part of "free food available 24/7" you're struggling with? Yet you choose to believe someone who can be PROVEN to be lying (Ramen-eaters), over someone giving you a firsthand account (Lefty, who even explained the end-around on how to pocket the meal stipend for a few Bens a month)...

Ponderous.

[Dinsdale]

Fuck, Van, the longer this thread goes, the dumber you get...

Bad enough the university takes on dead-weight-but-for-sports-revenue, but you're advocating...

and I'm taking a pause, because I'm taken aback by the monumental dumbassitude here...

not only do "plum stupid" (I think the word you were looking for was "plumb"-BTW) athletes get schollies solely for their ability to generate revenue for the school yo benefit the community as a whole...

now you advocate paying them extra.... in the interest of "fairness"...

This is so asinine, it's hard to comprehend.

How much should a chemistry student be paid when they innovate something on the school's dime?

How much should interns in medical programs be paid?

Your vision of "fairness" is a great idea -- if you're a child of a wealthy family, since that's the only people who are going to be able to attend university under your ideas.

[Van]

Dins, it's so asinine that the NCAA and its conference presidents are currently in talks regarding its implementation.

Either 'plum' or 'plumb' is acceptable in that instance. I used to use 'plumb' until I was talked into going with 'plum' by an English professor from U.C. Davis whose point was that they're interchangeable, so why not go with the simpler version? He abhored what he referred to as the "pretentious Frenchification" of our common language.

However, if it will make you happy, I'll go back to using 'plum.'

Your chemistry student analogy falls flat. A chem student is free to go work for Big Pharm, Inc, while still in school. He can earn a serious paycheck. In fact, he could even accept a paying gig at a rival university.

Never mind working for a rival program, an athlete cannot go to work for Safeway during football season, much less for the Houston Texans.

[Killian]

Never mind working for a rival program, an athlete cannot go to work for Safeway during football season, much less for the Houston Texans.

Are you just going to keep glossing over Lefty's point in hopes that if you post this often enough, it will be true?

[M2]

Are you just going to keep glossing over Lefty's point in hopes that if you post this often enough, it will be true?

Yes he will...



There should be a caged thread match between Vannie and McGoober42 where they're the only ones posting and I can guarantee that it would go to 14 pages in a matter of hours...