blame

[poptart]

Is rampant in humanity.

As soon as something goes wrong, finger pointing begins.
As soon as a person encounters hardship, he seeks to place blame - and it is very seldom placed on himself.

The Genesis of it.

Genesis 3:8-12
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.


Adam, thinking he could become wise, left God's Word.

He immediately became mentally oppressed.
He tried to cover himself.
He tried to hide from God.

Then he blamed both Eve and God.

But not himself.

He dealt with it in this fashion because he had just become a spiritual captive.
Not in his right mind.

This spiritual problem has surely passed to all people - Romans 3:23.


God of course covered Adam (v.21) and promised the solution for humanity (v.15).

Jesus is the Christ.

[Felix]

“One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody-not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms-had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think-though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one-that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.”
Christopher Hitchens

[poptart]

A few thoughts.

1) Man created religion, God gave the Gospel.

Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody-not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms-had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species

2) Democritus lived just 2,500 years ago. If man is supposedly said to be around 200,000 years old, how is it that Hitchens is calling 2,500 years ago human prehistory, and the infancy of our species?

Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion

3) Despite the so-called education of people of today, suffering and hardship continues - and increases.

[Felix]

2) Democritus lived just 2,500 years ago. If man is supposedly said to be around 200,000 years old, how is it that Hitchens is calling 2,500 years ago human prehistory, and the infancy of our species?

emergence of homo sapiens is estimated to have occurred 50,000 to 100,000 years, not 200,000 years ago....and Hitchens wasn't saying 2,500 years ago represented human prehistory, he was saying that 2,500 years ago, no one had any idea of how we got here-rather than simply acknowledging they had no clue, they chose to make up stories of a magical being that simply created us on a whim

Despite the so-called education of people of today, suffering and hardship continues - and increases.

and yet your omnipotent maker of all things allows the suffering, hardships, and cruelty to continue unabated....why does he allow babies to be born with malformed brains who struggle for life, live a few days, then die? is this what you define as "a loving god"?

“I suppose that one reason I have always detested religion is its sly tendency to insinuate the idea that the universe is designed with 'you' in mind or, even worse, that there is a divine plan into which one fits whether one knows it or not. This kind of modesty is too arrogant for me.”

[poptart]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapien

Anatomically modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago

Hitchens wasn't saying 2,500 years ago represented human prehistory

That is EXACTLY what he said there.

Hitchens: Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody-not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms-had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species


Even if you want to say man is just 50,000 years old, it still makes Hitchen's statement ridiculous on it's face.
In fact, he didn't just say it once, but he emphasized it again by saying that Democritus lived during the infancy of our species.

He's not making sense.

When, pray tell, did human history begin?


Christ was brutalized and He suffered tremendously.

All that simply believe will live forever.

[Felix]

That is EXACTLY what he said there.

Hitchens: Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody-not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms-had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species


Even if you want to say man is just 50,000 years old, it still makes Hitchen's statement ridiculous on it's face.
In fact, he didn't just say it once, but he emphasized it again by saying that Democritus lived during the infancy of our species.

he's making perfect sense, you're simply not reading the statement correctly

When, pray tell, did human history begin?

history is defined as the discovery, collection, organization, and presentation of information about past events. We can't know the history of human existence 25,000 years ago, because there is no documentation

Christ was brutalized and He suffered tremendously.

yeah, I know that's what you believe but really, what sense does it make for god to sacrifice himself to himself in order to eradicate the lingering effects of a "sin" that he established was a "sin" in the first place?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Hitchens wasn't saying 2,500 years ago represented human prehistory

That is EXACTLY what he said there.

Uhhh...no, he didn't.


Seriously, you can't be this stupid. You just can't.

[poptart]

he's making perfect sense, you're simply not reading the statement correctly

Nonsense.

Hitchens directly said that 2,500 years ago was human prehistory.
And humans were in the infancy of their species.

You even chose to quote him, as if he said something smart. haha

According to Hitchens, humans were in prehistory - or infancy, from 200,000 years ago (or 50,000 years if we want to use your time frame of "real" humans - lol) until... 500 BC.

That's a mightly long infancy there.
An astoundingly long prehistory.


Answer the question if you think Hitchens is so smart.

When did actually human history begin?

It's sometime after 500 BC, according to Hitchens.

When?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Hitchens directly said that 2,500 years ago was human prehistory.
And humans were in the infancy of their species.

Read the quote again, imbecile.
Hitchens is commenting on Democritus, who is himself commenting on a completely unrelated matter that is used as a logical juxtaposition.

haha

Indeed.

[poptart]

Desperation spin attempt. lol


Hitchens: One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody-not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms-had the smallest idea what was going on.


He plainly says there that Democritus was living in that 'prehistory' time.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

The text in between the dashes...

-not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms-


...is referred to as an "aside".


Sweet merciful Allah...I thought you couldn't be any more retarded after that Obama/natural-born/Hawaii thing, but...here we are...

[poptart]

Democritus is put as an aside by Hitchens there because he is supposedly one of the smart guys of human prehistory.

[poptart]

Marty, if the time of Democritus (around 500 BC) was not within the part of human history in which religion began, then what period of time are you wanting to assert that Hitchens is saying IS human prehistory - and infancy of the species?

What is that period of time?

[Felix]

Marty, if the time of Democritus (around 500 BC) was not within the part of human history in which religion began, then what period of time are you wanting to assert that Hitchens is saying IS human prehistory - and infancy of the species?

What is that period of time?

with this question, it becomes painfully obvious that you either are unable or simply won't grasp what Hitchens was saying....so if you're unable, that's a shame, if you simply won't understand it, that's dumbfuckery to it's nth degree.....

Thank god for Hitchens.

:grin: :grin:

hitchens no doubt would have laughed at a statement like that....
the world lost a great rationalist with his passing....

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Marty, if the time of Democritus (around 500 BC) was not within the part of human history in which religion began, then what period of time are you wanting to assert that Hitchens is saying IS human prehistory - and infancy of the species?

What is that period of time?

As big of a fucking moron as Hitchens was (and he truly was) even he wasn't stupid enough to not know that pre-history is by definition history that pre-dates written and oral record, of which Democritus would be a part of.

That should have been your first clue as to the meaning of Hitchen's point.

I will only concede that Hitchen's statement may have been poorly worded, but the thrust of the argument is in itself clear...

...to everyone seemingly, but you.

[poptart]

LOL

After all this dancing around, you say that yes, Hitchens was of course saying there that Democritus was part of human prehistory - or infancy of the species.

Nevermind that there are written and oral records preceeding (by quite a lot) the time of Democritus.

Nevermind also that you have to be a stooge to say that 197,500 years (compared to 2,500) is the infancy of a species.

Not sure why Felix would pull something that DUMB and display it as if it is enlightening.

But whatever...


Beyond that, it's really fascinating to imagine how it was that man somehow sat with his thumb up his @ss for about 190,000 years.

You look at the RAPID advancement of things.
We see that in just decades or years, man does tremendous things.
Tremendous exploration and advancement.
And it's obviously man's nature to seek out and further himself.

You think of this and then realize again that the idea that man was a huge feeb for 200,000 years is just a very big LAFF.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

...you say that yes, Hitchens was of course saying there that Democritus was part of human prehistory...

You're either a complete moron or you're purposefully evading the facts.

Either way, you look the fool.

I'm seriously considering not endorsing your very first radio show.

[Felix]

Nevermind also that you have to be a stooge to say that 197,500 years (compared to 2,500) is the infancy of a species.

that's not what he said, and why you keep defending this utterly ridiculous assertion is beyond me

Beyond that, it's really fascinating to imagine how it was that man somehow sat with his thumb up his @ss for about 190,000 years.

I'm pretty sure the first homo sapiens were directing all of their energies in staying alive...I don't imagine they had much time for sticking their thumbs up their asses

You look at the RAPID advancement of things.
We see that in just decades or years, man does tremendous things. Tremendous exploration and advancement.
And it's obviously man's nature to seek out and further himself.

You think of this and then realize again that the idea that man was a huge feeb for 200,000 years is just a very big LAFF.

so, you're willing to acknowledge that modern humans are in excess of 50,000 years old, lets say 100,000 years....they're main objective is to keep out of the way of all the things capable of killing and eating them...they struggle to stay alive slogging through their existence....and your god sits back and watches this millennia after millennia and then all of a sudden decides about 6,000 years ago (according to your book) that an intervention on his part was necessary? really, is that what you're trying to sell me here?

if true, your god is an even bigger prick than I originally thought...

[poptart]

that's not what he said, and why you keep defending this utterly ridiculous assertion is beyond me

What is with you?

Hitchens said that the religion came from the era of human prehistory, the infancy of our species.

By the time that era arrived, human had already been around, according to him and his ilk, for 197,000 years.

We had, according to him, 197,000 years of human infancy - and then a mere 3,000 years of... whatever he would label now as.

It's idiotic.

so, you're willing to acknowledge that modern humans are in excess of 50,000 years old, lets say 100,000 years

No, I don't believe humans have been around that long.

I'm just saying that Hitchens said something thoughtless - and you decided to post it, apparently because you thought it was enlightening.

[Felix]

Hitchens said that the religion came from the era of human prehistory, the infancy of our species

yeah, I don't know what you're struggling with here.....history is that which is recorded....prior to being able to record and document the events around them would be prehistory.....I can't see what it is your struggling with....

No, I don't believe humans have been around that long.

well then tell me how long do you think humans have been around?

[poptart]

1. History WAS recorded well in advance of the time Democritus lived.
The time he lived was NOT prehistory.

2. Hitchens is calling 98.5% of human existence... infancy.
That's very stupid.
VERY.

Did man not, for 197,000 years, question his existence - and wonder who he is, where he came from, and what his purpose is?
Only in the last 3,000 years did man come around to wondering such things? lol
It's preposterous.

3. I don't know how long humans have been around, but I assume it's been less than 10,000 years.

[Goober McTuber]

3. I don't know how long humans have been around, but I assume it's been less than 10,000 years.

Speak for yourself, Sonny.

[Dinsdale]

Pull your fucking head out, you ridiculously deluded fuck.

Slap whoever the fuck did this to you.

Sorry if fucking FACTS interfere with the fucking stupidity you've been force-fed by threat, but your lot is...


wrong.

We've got carbon dating, potassium-argon dating, and several other techniques... they're pretty much basic fucking math, dumbass.

Homo sapiens = ~195,000 old. Not really up for debate.

As far as your other stupid rationale that translates loosely to "I've invested way too much time beating the pulp out of this bible to actually look at verifyible science and let it go" -- no, Homo sapiens didn't play tiddlywinks for 190,000 years.

First, as you mentioned, technology has really blossomed... does the term "geometric progression" mean anything to you?

How about an expanding population being able to offer up more ideas for others to expound on?

And I'll help you out with more irrefutable science -- there was those pesky "near-extinction" dealios to deal with... as there will be again someday.

If you gave equal time to science books as you did the Ignoramuses' Operating Manual, you wouldn't come across here as quite the tard you usually do.

Look, I don't give a shit what fairy tale you believe in. I support your right to believe whatever the fuck you want, no matter how laughable. But when you try to state that provable, repeatable science must be wrong, because it contradicts your beliefs, then I'll exercise my right to call you a "raging dumbfuck," and probably follow it up with a "BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!"

Fair enough? Because here's the IRREFUTABLE dealio... you're wrong.

And you know your book says the earth is flat, right? (As much as you people try to explain that they "meant" something else.) Guess what -- we've pretty much proven that one untrue, too -- but rather than fess up, you people insist on warping and spinning to try and put a different meaning on it, since to do otherwise would be admitting a mistake... you people don't do that... ever.


But what an appropriate topic you brought up... whenever someone clearly points out that your basic operating principles are wrong, you assign blame for why everyone else is wrong, and you're right.

[poptart]

does the term "geometric progression"
mean anything to you?

I don't know, sir, but I'll look it up.

And you know your book says the earth is flat, right?

What Scripture are you talking about?

[Dinsdale]

And you know your book says the earth is flat, right?

What Scripture are you talking about?

Dozens. Several imply that if you go jigh enough in elevation, you can see the entire earth... multiple examples.

Tell you what, just pick whichever one you like, then launch into your "B-B-B-B-but it MEANT that blablahblah..."

[poptart]

Dozens

No, there are zero.

But peliminary to stating that, the Bible is not given to us as a science text.

[smackaholic]

I need to wander into the fairy tale forum a little more often.

My take as an extremely doubt agnostic (I can't call myself quite an aetheist, as that implies knowing what isn't so) is that poptart has had his batches barrened down pretty well hear by everyone.

Perhaps Hutchens doesn't say it particularly well, but, anyone with just a few firing neurons and a hint of objectivity gets what he is saying.

He is saying that all this religion mumbo jumbo was concocted by pre/early historic fukks who were completely clueless, but, needed to have an explanation.

I think it's a bit different. I think it was more a case of needing to keep everyone in line. What better way of doing so than to come up with some sort of santa who making a list and checkin' it twice?

As to whether or not man 2500 years ago was in his infancy, of course he fucking was. Not chronologically, but in the way he got by day to day. 2500 years ago, we were closer to scrounging hunter/gatherers than iphone user. Anyone that doubts this is officially the dumbest fukk to ever draw breath.

Despite what I've just said, I do admit to envying misguided fukks like poptart. Their faith is one hell of a crutch and the greatest opiate ever invented.

Actually, not being much of an opiate inbiber, I guess I should leave ranking it to dins/other board druggies.

And it is absolutely free. What a bargain.

Perhaps someday I'll see the light. I doubt it, but stranger things have happened. I just can't do it just yet, because when I do think about what I read in the bible, I come away with one thought.

God is a ginormous asshole. He tells us not to be jealous, yet he wrote the fuggen book on jealousy. He tells us not to murder, yet he does it by the gross.

Maybe I just need to do a little more reading of other religions. Maybe there is a cool god out there.

[poptart]

I need to wander into the fairy tale forum a little more often.

Yes, it's the #1 Forum on T1B.

Perhaps Hutchens doesn't say it particularly well, but, anyone with just a few firing neurons and a hint of objectivity gets what he is saying.

He is saying that all this religion mumbo jumbo was concocted by pre/early historic fukks who were completely clueless, but, needed to have an explanation.

I'm interested in your answer, smackster.

Hitchens believes humans have been around for 200,000 years - but that 'religious thought' only began 2,500 years ago.

Do you think that man, for 197,500 years, did not question his existence, wonder where he came from, and seek within (and without) to find answers about his origin?

Didn't humans, 10's of thousands of years previously, need an explanation, as you put it?

[Dinsdale]

Pop... have you ever considered cracking a book besides the Operating Manual?

Holy smokes.

Uhm... there's cave drawings, widely believed to be religious in nature, dating back 35,000 years.



Seriously, bro -- there's education to be found outside of a church building.

[poptart]

Yes, I believe that as long as man has been around, he's had a 'religious' orientation.

It didn't begin 2,500 years ago and it's not ending now that we're... SO VERY smart, despite Hitchen's fervent wishes.


And if we've been around for 200,000 years, 197,500 of those years could not be called, by any sane person, the infancy of the species.

[smackaholic]

Yes, I believe that as long as man has been around, he's had a 'religious' orientation.

It didn't begin 2,500 years ago and it's not ending now that we're... SO VERY smart, despite Hitchen's fervent wishes.


And if we've been around for 200,000 years, 197,500 of those years could not be called, by any sane person, the infancy of the species.

Depending on what sort of tard stick you are using, it sure the fukk can.

If your yard stick is man's cummulative knowledge, 2500 years ago is our infancy. Not saying 500 BC man didn't have more knowledge than 75,000 BC man, but, his knowledge base was a lot fukking closer to that dude, than today.

edit- for a change I proofread before posting and saw the honest typo "tard stick". I was gonna fix it but thought it was kinda appropriate. Beside, maybe jesus made me do it.

[poptart]

haha

Tard stick - nice!

That which the doctor whips out to measure Moving Sale.

[mvscal]

3) Despite the so-called education of people of today, suffering and hardship continues - and increases.

Who suffers most?

[poptart]

I'm pretty sure the point you want to make is that the educated people end up with less suffering than the non-educated people.

It's certainly true that more education leads to greater wealth.
And greater wealth to a greater ability to receive, for instance, health care, nutrition, living enviornment, and other things, to help maintain yourself.

Education/wealth does not stop suffering, however.
More educated countries, for example, have the highest rates of depression, and very high rates of mental problems.

The examples are endless.

Michael Jackson.
Talent, stardom, money... could not stop his spiritual problem.

It never can.

[smackaholic]

Education/wealth does not stop suffering, however.
More educated countries, for example, have the highest rates of depression, and very high rates of mental problems.

The examples are endless.

Michael Jackson.
Talent, stardom, money... could not stop his spiritual problem.

It never can.

Bullshit.

I am quite certain that depression in the 3rd world is just as common. It is just not documented. Those fukkers are too busy just trying to stay alive to worry about whether or not billy is feeling a little melancholy.

Personally, I would have to say that having a few mill sitting in the bank would make my life better. I think this is the case in the great majority of people. Of course it could make life worse for those prone to addictions. Too fukking bad for them.

[poptart]

I am quite certain that depression in the 3rd world is just as common. It is just not documented. Those fukkers are too busy just trying to stay alive to worry about whether or not billy is feeling a little melancholy.

This may be true.

What we still have, however, is people not finding real happiness or satisfaction, despite high education or income.

Personally, I would have to say that having a few mill sitting in the bank would make my life better. I think this is the case in the great majority of people.

Sure.
We all do think this way.
I want to think it, also, even though I know it is an illusion.

Adam left God's Word and tried to find peace, but mental trouble began.

He was uncomfortable - and tried to cover himself.
He hid from God.
And he blamed others.

Apart from God's Word is profound unhappiness.
That's what I see.

[mvscal]

I'm pretty sure the first homo sapiens were directing all of their energies in staying alive...I don't imagine they had much time for sticking their thumbs up their asses

Nonsense. They would have had plenty of time for reflection. More than modern man easily.

[War Wagon]

What we still have, however, is people not finding real happiness or satisfaction, despite high education or income.

I doubt you have it all figured out yet either.

interlude

[poptart]

I doubt you have it all figured out yet either.

There are many many things I don't know about.

What I've come to know, though, is that our problems have come about for one reason.
Separation from our Creator, Whom we can not live without.

And our solution is this...

Matthew 28:18
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth

Colossians 2:3
(Christ) in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge


There is nowhere else to look other than Jesus Christ.

[Felix]

Nonsense. They would have had plenty of time for reflection. More than modern man easily.

yeah, they probably would have had a lot of time for reflection, just not a lot to reflect on.....

"what did you do today"
"found an animal, killed it and ate it....that's about it"