Genesis 3:15

[poptart]

I take Genesis 1:3 (Light) to be Christ, but Genesis 3:15 is the first promise of Christ in the Bible.

Man had just been deceived into becoming separated from God - and God said this to satan:

Genesis 3:15
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Christ is the seed of the woman, not an offspring of the fully corrupted seed of Adam.
The virgin birth.
The birth by the Holy Spirit - God Himself, which is the only thing which can overcome satan and give man back spiritual Life which has been taken from all of us.


We can notice also in Genesis 3:15 that there is a seed of satan.

Satan's seed brought all of humanity into bondage.
People come into the world from his seed - and we all are afflicted, corrupt, and quite simply hurting, in many different ways.
John 8:44.
And the hurt only increases over time - until failure overwhelms us completely.

So long as a person remains a part of the seed of satan, he is within the pitiful state described in Ephesians 2.
A slave, an abused toy and tool of satan.

Ephesians 2:2-3
Wherein in time past (prior to salvation) ye walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The seed of the woman, Christ, takes a person out of this, lets him regain his Life and genuine peace.

[Felix]

Genesis 3

one of the most stunning chapters in the bible

that's the one with the talking snake right? (genesis 3:1; 4-5)

and god walking in the garden looking for adam and eve and when he couldn't find them asked where they were? (genesis 3:9)

the one where god wanted to know who told adam and eve they were naked? (genesis 3:11)

you'd think a being that could create everything would already know the answer to questions like that.....

this is also the first time that god demonstrates his long running hatred for animals as he kills some to provide adam and eve clothes (genesis 3:21)...

you'd think the creator of all things could just whip up some fleece pullovers and some khakis instead of slaughtering innocent animals....

anticipated response
"you're not supposed to take those chapters literally, it's just allegory"

[poptart]

1) It wasn't a talking snake, it was the serpent. Revelation 12:9.

2) Rhetorical questions.

3) Do you eat meat? Why do you hate animals?

[Felix]

1) It wasn't a talking snake, it was the serpent. Revelation 12:9.

2) Rhetorical questions.

3) Do you eat meat? Why do you hate animals?

1. so it was a dragon that tempted eve? yeah, that' makes it much more plausible

2. god was asking rhetorical questions? too bad they didn't have the reverse question mark back when they were writing the bible, because that would have driven the point home....

3. I eat meat because I'm a carnivore and I don't hate animals, I find them tasty.....

I'm assuming the creator doesn't eat meat....so god kills (or has others kill) animals for no apparent reason

starting with abel (genesis 4:8)
even jesus joins the slaughter (Matthew 8:32)

[poptart]

1) It was the dragon, yes. Satan.

3) God established the blood covenant from Genesis 3:21 ---> and it has gone forward until the present.
There is an element of speculation on my part as to exactly why God has chosen this method, but it is known that God's Law is that the wage of sin is death, and this Law was first told to Adam in Genesis 2:17.
So in order to cover sin, death must occur.
Death = shed blood.


I've answered your point about the swine (Matthew 8:32) previously, so I'll leave it alone.

[Felix]

1) It was the dragon, yes. Satan.

3) but it is known that God's Law is that the wage of sin is death, and this Law was first told to Adam in Genesis 2:17.
So in order to cover sin, death must occur.
Death = shed blood.

fine, kill as many people as you want even thought that makes him a murderer....dude, I've got better morals than your old testament god...

I've answered your point about the swine (Matthew 8:32) previously, so I'll leave it alone.

I must have missed that...so devils inhabited swine and the son of gods only recourse was to drive them over a cliff...couldn't he have just prayed and asked himself to forgive the pigs? yeah, complicated I know, but better that slaughtering a herd of pigs.

[War Wagon]

I'm shaking my head at both of you. I have no idea why you bother with this pointless exercise in futilty

[poptart]

Felix, as usual I could give you a long answer, but will just hit two important points.

1) Jesus rescued two men who had become demon possessed.

2) Pigs were considered an unclean animal by the Jews, and God's Law prohibited eating pork.
I won't get into the reasons for that, but you should know that there was no reason to be raising pigs in Israel, and these animals would rightfully be destroyed.

[Felix]

I have no idea why you bother with this pointless exercise in futilty

it's certainly not pointless....I enjoying tart trying to justify the idiocy of the bible

Felix, as usual I could give you a long answer

no matter how long your answer, it's not going to make any more sense than a shorter, succinct answer

1) Jesus rescued two men who had become demon possessed.

they were possessed by demons, and the only solution for god was to drive a herd of pigs over the cliff? why didn't he just point his finger at them and say "the demons are cast out"

2) Pigs were considered an unclean animal by the Jews, and God's Law prohibited eating pork.

are we talking god of the old bible or god of the new bible....regardless of who it is-why didn't he kill all pigs?

more temptation so he can send violators to hell?

[poptart]

they were possessed by demons, and the only solution for god was to drive a herd of pigs over the cliff? why didn't he just point his finger at them and say "the demons are cast out"

The only solution?
No.

If you read the text you see that the demons asked to be driven into the swine - and Jesus did simply say "Go," and the demons were driven out.


The Law, given to the Israelites, prohibited the eating of pork.
God provided an ample food supply for the Israelites and there was no reason for them to need to eat it.
And there was no reason for God to kill all pigs.
We can eat pork now if we want to.


Those who follow after satan rightfully follow him right to the end ---> which is hell.

Pause and think for a moment about your life, if it was a life where you had no temptation in front of you.

Are you angry that God has not given you that sort of life? Really?

[poptart]

Matthew 13:15 (Jesus speaking)
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed;
lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with
their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.






Matthew 13:3-9
[3] And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
[4] And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
[5] Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
[6] And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
[7] And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
[8] But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
[9] Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Christ is the seed of the woman...

Women don't have "seed".

Unless of course you're talking about some of the bars bradhusker hangs out in...

[Felix]

If you read the text you see that the demons asked to be driven into the swine - and Jesus did simply say "Go," and the demons were driven out.

so the "demons" wanted to be driven into the pigs? I suppose there mus be a perfectly logical reason why demons would want to be in pigs, but it's escaping me

The Law, given to the Israelites, prohibited the eating of pork.
God provided an ample food supply for the Israelites and there was no reason for them to need to eat it.
And there was no reason for God to kill all pigs.
We can eat pork now if we want to.

so it was forbidden for Israelites to eat pigs (for whatever reason)

and now we can eat pork.....on whose authority?

Those who follow after satan rightfully follow him right to the end ---> which is hell.

does that include pork eaters?

Pause and think for a moment about your life, if it was a life where you had no temptation in front of you.

Are you angry that God has not given you that sort of life? Really?

my life is what I've made it, without any help from your sky buddy....I've had lots of temptation throughout my life, but rest assured, my choices weren't governed by your god....I do good things because I expect some celestial check mark , I do it because I enjoy helping my fellow man....

do you really relish the idea of a celestial dictator watching over every thing you do, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.....why anyone would embrace that idea is beyond me

[poptart]

so it was forbidden for Israelites to eat pigs (for whatever reason)

and now we can eat pork.....on whose authority?

Yes, there were definite reasons why God gave certain Laws to the Israelites at that time.

Jesus' authority - and He has all authority in Heaven and on Earth. Matthew 28:18.

The primary verse to wrap your head around is John 5:39.
Jesus speaking to the Pharisees, who kept the Law (including dietary Laws) well and thought it was their salvation.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.

Romans 10:4, also.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Acts 10:9-16, also.
Mark 7:18-23, also.
Many places.

There is dietary common sense which is wise to recognize, but there is no dietary Law that a Christian is bound to follow.

Everything is finished in Christ Jesus.

do you really relish the idea of a celestial dictator watching over every thing you do, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year

God is with me always and I feel great about it.

It's why I testify to it.

[Felix]

Yes, there were definite reasons why God gave certain Laws to the Israelites at that time.

really? okay, give me one practical reason why god would forbid israelites to eat pork?

and don't say because they're unclean animals...there are lots of animals that are much more unclean

[poptart]

It wasn't just pork.
God prohibited many things from being eaten.


Deuteronomy 14:1-22
[1] Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
[2] for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
[3] Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.
[4] These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat,
[5] The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois.
[6] And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat.
[7] Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you.
[8] And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
[9] These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
[10] And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.
[11] Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
[12] But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and ossifrage, and the ospray,
[13] And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
[14] And every raven after his kind,
[15] And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
[16] The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
[17] And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
[18] And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
[19] And every creeping thing that flieth is unclean unto you: they shall not be eaten.
[20] But of all clean fowls ye may eat.
[21] Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
[22] Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.


You'll notice in v.8 that not only was eating pork prohibited, but just touching a dead carcass was prohibited.

The swine being driven into the sea was completely appropriate.


The basic practical reason was for the health and maintenance of the people.
Widespread disease would not have been desirable at all - and we must understand that this group of people was the vessel from which the Messiah was to arise.

[Felix]

[7] Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you.

hate to be the bearer of bad news, but hares don't chew cud

[poptart]

When someone points at this verse and opens criticism, they truly are trying way too hard.

It's not worth giving a long response, so I won't.

We are now 3,500 years past the time when this directive was given, and it's purpose was to give the Israelites at that time the information about what animals were not clean to eat.
The hare was not clean and it surely gave the appearance that it chews it's cud.

How often have you said, "sunset," Felix?

You were technically wrong about that every time you said it.


The Bible is not a science text.

[Felix]

The swine being driven into the sea was completely appropriate.

killing animals for no reason (sustanence is valid reason) is never appropriate....we put people in jail for it....

god pretty much relished in having people sacrifice animals to him for no apparent reason
that's the definition of being a colossal dickhead

[poptart]

no apparent reason

It's for - no apparent reason - because you remain exceedingly dull.

[poptart]

Slight elaboration, Felix...

I think you have a 'modern' or 'sentimental' view of animals which does not accurately match with what they realistically are.

1) Animals are creations (as are you) of the Creator.
They have no independent 'right' apart from the Creator and they certainly have no independent existence apart from Him.
YOU have no independent right or existence apart from Him - and your version of morality is diddly poo.

Imo, the very first thing to recognize in beginning to gain wisdom is to recognize what you are.
A creation.
And the Creator SO dwarfs you in every way that we can't even begin to scratch the surface of that pwnship.

2) God created man uniquely - with a spirit, and animals have none.
Animals were put here for man, as a help for man, for man's benefit. Genesis 1:26-28.

3) God established the Law of sin and death - Genesis 2:17, and the animals helped man by shedding blood (dying) to atone for man's sin.
It was part of the fulfillment of dominion over animals which God ordained for man to have.

4) The animals sacrifice of the Old Testament was not a simple matter.
The animals had to be spotless - and it was always a 'high caliber' animal.
Long story short, the act of providing such an animal was a burden (financially and otherwise) for the one who had sinned, such that he felt it.
And he had to identify with the animal, and understand the magnitude of sin and the death and destruction it brings.

5) God sacrificed His only Son as atonement for you and I.
THIS is not a simple matter.
And yet you're hung up on animal sacrifice.

[Python]

Felix has officially run out of things to argue about.

[Felix]

I think you have a 'modern' or 'sentimental' view of animals which does not accurately match with what they realistically are.
1) Animals are creations They have no independent 'right'

really.....tell ya what sport, take a pig down to the local precinct, kill it in front of some policemen, and watch how fast they put you in jail for cruelty to animals.....then when your court case comes up, start spouting that horseshit to the judge and lemme know how that works out for you....

God sacrificed His only Son as atonement for you and I.
THIS is not a simple matter.

so, god sacrificed himself to himself to atone for people breaking rules that he initially made up....seriously, he's the creator of the entire universe and this is the best solution he could come up with.....honestly, what kind of a fucking moron believes shit like that

YOU have no independent right or existence apart from Him - and your version of morality is diddly poo.

your god condones genocide, sacrificing animals, and slavery.....

I'm morally superior to your god and the point isn't even debatable.....

Felix has officially run out of things to argue about.

as long as there are people that continue to believe in the fairy tales of the bible, I'll never run out of things to argue about....

[Python]

All I know is that I agree with Jules. A pig is a filthy animal.

[Felix]

All I know is that I agree with Jules. A pig is a filthy animal.

pigs are filthy animals
but you've got to admit bacon is pretty tasty

[poptart]

I'm morally superior to your god and the point isn't even debatable.....

Genesis 3:4-5
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
[5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes
shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Did he/we win?

If a person looks into the Old Testament at all, they soon realize that God bats 1.000 in fulfilling His Word.

It's still being fulfilled as we speak.

Get yourself on the winning team, champ.

I sincerely urge you.

[Felix]

Genesis 3:4-5
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
[5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

why do you continually quote nonsensical bullshit from a book of fairy tales?

face it, your god is the greatest mass murder of all time and most of the time he committed these murders for no other reason than he was pissed....he was always brimming with wrath and anger and fury....

and yes, I'm morally superior to your god, which by osmosis makes me morally superior to you....sorry you had to find out this way

[poptart]

why do you continually quote nonsensical bullshit from a book of fairy tales?

This is the forum for it.

your god is the greatest mass murder of all time and most of the time he committed these murders for no other reason than he was pissed....he was always brimming with wrath and anger and fury....

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation.

God is Life itself (John 1:4) - and apart from Him is only death.
Genesis 2:17.

Satan whispered sweet lies to us, we listened, we liked it, we followed it, and we went into death.

John 8:44
He (satan) was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no
truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Satan is a liar, a murderer, and there is no truth in him.

Listening to his sweet seductive words will take you further into oppression.

You're not smart and you're not moral, Felix.


You've asked about specific incidents in which God killed people and I've been happy to respond to them.

As always, if you care to bring up a specific event, I'm glad to reply, but as of now, it's my take that you have taken reality and flipped it upside down.

[Python]

face it, your god is the greatest mass murder of all time and most of the time he committed these murders for no other reason than he was pissed....he was always brimming with wrath and anger and fury....

Now see, this is what confuses me. You don't believe in god, yet you rail about how this god you don't believe in is unfair and unjust and a murderer. Are you really angry about it, or are you just trying to show Christians how wrong you really believe they are? Why do you spend so much time debating detail after detail about a god you don't think exists. Why don't you simply say, "He doesn't exist. Period."

Again, you seem awful angry about something that is nonexistent.

[Felix]

Now see, this is what confuses me. You don't believe in god, yet you rail about how this god you don't believe in is unfair and unjust and a murderer.

lets clear something up here....I can't say there is no god, what I'm saying is that there is no evidence that would support my belief in god....but I can say without hesitation that if there is a god, it's certainly not the god of the bible.....

are you just trying to show Christians how wrong you really believe they are? Why do you spend so much time debating detail after detail about a god you don't think exists. Why don't you simply say, "He doesn't exist. Period."

I enjoy theologic discussions.....and I believe all religions are a crock of shit...if there were muslims that posted on this board, I'd tell them how full of shit they are, but this forum is pretty much limited to christians...

I have an equal amount of disdain for every religion

[mvscal]

Yes, there were definite reasons why God gave certain Laws to the Israelites at that time.

really? okay, give me one practical reason why god would forbid israelites to eat pork?

Trichinosis. Anything else?

[Felix]

Trichinosis. Anything else?

humans can develop trichinosis from eating almost any kind of wild game....

but in Genesis god was pretty specific about what humans could eat....

9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things

sometime later on, god developed a real hatred of pigs...
that's fucking irony for you

[Felix]

I can't shake my guilt over eating ossifrage the other night.

looks delicious.....I'll bet some spotted owl cakes would have really set it off

[bradhusker]

Genesis 3

one of the most stunning chapters in the bible

that's the one with the talking snake right? (genesis 3:1; 4-5)

and god walking in the garden looking for adam and eve and when he couldn't find them asked where they were? (genesis 3:9)

the one where god wanted to know who told adam and eve they were naked? (genesis 3:11)

you'd think a being that could create everything would already know the answer to questions like that.....

this is also the first time that god demonstrates his long running hatred for animals as he kills some to provide adam and eve clothes (genesis 3:21)...

you'd think the creator of all things could just whip up some fleece pullovers and some khakis instead of slaughtering innocent animals....

anticipated response
"you're not supposed to take those chapters literally, it's just allegory"

Felix? are you an idiot? GOD knew the answer to the question, you fuckin moron. Its the same thing when a teacher asks their student a question, they already know, but they want to see if their pupil knows. GET IT NOW? damm ur dumb.

[bradhusker]

I take Genesis 1:3 (Light) to be Christ, but Genesis 3:15 is the first promise of Christ in the Bible.

Man had just been deceived into becoming separated from God - and God said this to satan:

Genesis 3:15
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Christ is the seed of the woman, not an offspring of the fully corrupted seed of Adam.
The virgin birth.
The birth by the Holy Spirit - God Himself, which is the only thing which can overcome satan and give man back spiritual Life which has been taken from all of us.


We can notice also in Genesis 3:15 that there is a seed of satan.

Satan's seed brought all of humanity into bondage.
People come into the world from his seed - and we all are afflicted, corrupt, and quite simply hurting, in many different ways.
John 8:44.
And the hurt only increases over time - until failure overwhelms us completely.

So long as a person remains a part of the seed of satan, he is within the pitiful state described in Ephesians 2.
A slave, an abused toy and tool of satan.

Ephesians 2:2-3
Wherein in time past (prior to salvation) ye walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The seed of the woman, Christ, takes a person out of this, lets him regain his Life and genuine peace.

pop, to me, the most compelling evidence of Christ, is when God says, "Let us", which is clearly plural, that has to be the most obvious proof for me anyway. And when you mention this to rabbi leaders, they really dont have a rebuttal which makes any sense at all.

[poptart]

The rabbi's (etc.) do have a response to it, but I agree - it doesn't wash.

I take it as the Trinity.

Of course the Jews don't believe the Book of John, but as you pointed out previously, reading John 1:1-3 lets us recognize what is meant by 'us' in Genesis 1:26.

You can also see us in other places.

Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, Isaiah 6:8.