Tony Scott does a 4g negative dive

[Mikey]

Saw some mini-van cabs in SF when we were there in June. Rode in a Prius a couple of times and was actually impressed with the back seat leg room. Prefer the Escalade we took up to Napa, though.

[smackaholic]

Saw some mini-van cabs in SF when we were there in June. Rode in a Prius a couple of times and was actually impressed with the back seat leg room. Prefer the Escalade we took up to Napa, though.

You are right. I did see some Caravans. I suspect there is an exception to the rule as there are no hybrid minivans. I suspect someone will have one out there soon, though. Probably Dodge or Honda.

[Moving Sale]

TVO, you can scour through thirteen years of my posts and you won't find a single racist thing I've ever submitted. I strongly urge you to try.

I'll meet you half way. Next time I see your racist side I will, not so politely, point it out to you.

[Moving Sale]

What exactly did I back pedal from?

You went from stupid, and all that the word alone implies, to stupid looking.

[Moving Sale]

How was that?

Better.
To answer your question... A prius is what 20- 30k? A new car that get 30 or even 40 mpg cost what? 20-30k? The math nerds might beg to differ but I don't think it will take very long.

[Moving Sale]

In a related context, behavioral economists have suggested that homeowners
will over-invest in solar panels and under-invest in other green home improvements,
like additional insulation and window caulking, because the former are
conspicuous and the latter are not.

When caulking, always use black caulk.

Sin,
Mvskkkal

[Van]

TVO, you can scour through thirteen years of my posts and you won't find a single racist thing I've ever submitted. I strongly urge you to try.

I'll meet you half way. Next time I see your racist side I will, not so politely, point it out to you.

Please do.

[Mikey]

During extensive interviews with early hybrid vehicle adopters in California,
Heffner et al. [2007] found that symbolism was important to hybrid owners.
One interview subject said his Prius “made a statement” to others and that
the Civic Hybrid communicated symbolism less effectively than the Prius. The
authors reported that most of the individuals they interviewed had “only a basic
understanding of environmental issues or the ecological benefits of HEVs (hybrid
electric vehicles),” but “bought a symbol of preserving the environment that they
could incorporate into a narrative of who they are or who they wish to be.”
In a related context, behavioral economists have suggested that homeowners
will over-invest in solar panels and under-invest in other green home improvements,
like additional insulation and window caulking, because the former are
conspicuous and the latter are not.

Just a few comments (was this published in Playboy BTW?):

The authors clearly didn't know shit about the subject.

The early Civic Hybrid also didn't get nearly the gas mileage that the Prius got. Maybe that had something to do with the Prius's more effective symbolism?

In a lot places were the solar potential is greatest additional insulation and, especially, window caulking will make very little difference. Most people who put up solar systems either 1) don't live in the northeast where window caulking and extra insulation would make a big difference or 2) can afford homes that are already fairly tight.

I may not be the "normal" adoptor of PV solar (and I never thought I'd see 88 quoting "behavioral economists" as some kind of scientific authority on anything), but before we over-invested we already replaced our single speed pool pump with a Variable Frequency Drive pump; replaced most lights with CFLs and then a lot of those with LEDs; and replaced refrigerator, dishwasher and A/C with high efficiency models.

Window caulking and extra insulation would be a waste of time and money here. But I guess the behavioral economists never really learned about energy efficiency.

[Mikey]

My anecdotal observation is that most Prius drivers think highly of themselves because they drive a Prius and expect you to do the same. I feel the same way about Prius drivers as I do about people who drive Smart Cars and/or lick windows.

FWIW, here is a link to the entire article:

http://works.bepress.com/sexton/11/

The co-author is a Ph.D candidate at Cal Berkeley. I thought that meant he had insta-cred with your peeps.

This guy could be M2 for all I know. He certainly looks the part.

I have no doubt the so-called "Prius effect" exists. I personally can't stand the majority of Prius owners, especially the ones trying to "hyper-mile" at the expense of everybody else's sanity. And Smart Cars? Geez anybody who buys one of those is just plain fucking stupid. It's a two seat death trap rated at 36 mpg...not much better than a Hyundai Elantra (33) which will seat four more comfortably than the death trap seats two.

So, I guess I don't have too much problem with their hypothesis but if they're going to cite facts to prove it they should get their facts straight. I guess generalization and "painting with a broad brush" is the economists' version of science.

Edit: you can't see my solar panels unless you climb to the top of the hill in our back yard. I may have made a big deal out of it here but I don't advertise it in "real life."

[Left Seater]

In a lot places were the solar potential is greatest additional insulation and, especially, window caulking will make very little difference. Most people who put up solar systems either 1) don't live in the northeast where window caulking and extra insulation would make a big difference or 2) can afford homes that are already fairly tight.

I would disagree with you. Many places with solar potential can also benefit from additional insulation and caulking. Further these measures also work very well in reverse of places like the Northeast, ie keeping the hot air out.

[smackaholic]

In a lot places were the solar potential is greatest additional insulation and, especially, window caulking will make very little difference. Most people who put up solar systems either 1) don't live in the northeast where window caulking and extra insulation would make a big difference or 2) can afford homes that are already fairly tight.

I would disagree with you. Many places with solar potential can also benefit from additional insulation and caulking. Further these measures also work very well in reverse of places like the Northeast, ie keeping the hot air out.

Caulk or even windows, don't mean much in fairly good sized chunks of cali. It just doesn't get hot or cold enough often to worry about it. Sometimes I wonder why they even bother with any sort of central heating/cooling system.

I am with the fat hipp...mikey, on the various hybrids and the "smart" car (most ironic name in history). The early honda hybrids (1st gen insight, excluded) have been uncharacteristic flops for Honda. The Prius buttfukks them in the mouf. The first gen insight with a manual trans kicks all their asses. 70-80 mpg is no sweat for them. The Smart Car is utter shit. Poor mileage for a roller skate. It was designed for horribly laid out euro cities where its ridiculous size is helpful. It does have one advantage. You can park it in a parallel parking spot, nose first thanks to its TiVOesque length.

And to whoever asked, yes, you can get small cars that will equal the prius' mileage in most conditions for 8-10 thousand less. The Prius may be worth 2-3 grand more. It is not worth 8-10 grand more, in most situations. Most situations would mean pretty much anything outside SF taxi service.

[Left Seater]

In a lot places were the solar potential is greatest additional insulation and, especially, window caulking will make very little difference. Most people who put up solar systems either 1) don't live in the northeast where window caulking and extra insulation would make a big difference or 2) can afford homes that are already fairly tight.

I would disagree with you. Many places with solar potential can also benefit from additional insulation and caulking. Further these measures also work very well in reverse of places like the Northeast, ie keeping the hot air out.

Caulk or even windows, don't mean much in fairly good sized chunks of cali. It just doesn't get hot or cold enough often to worry about it. Sometimes I wonder why they even bother with any sort of central heating/cooling system.

I wasn't speaking of Cali. The desert SW certainly can benefit from caulking and insulation as can major portions of Texas.

[smackaholic]

You are right. Mikey was refering to his neck of the woods where an airtight home is beneficial something like once every 4 or 5 years. Just having a little bit of thermal mass is enough to smooth out the hotest part of the day and coolest part of the night. Around the bay area I think they could pretty much do without windows and just wear a sweater 365 days a year.

[Mikey]

I wasn't speaking of Cali. The desert SW certainly can benefit from caulking and insulation as can major portions of Texas.

Can't argue with that, especially the insulation part. I can't imagine too many houses with window frames that are leaky enough to where simply caulking would really do that much good. Maybe I'm wrong, and there are a lot of shithole houses with leaky window frames, but I wouldn't expect to see PV systems on them either.

And it's definitely true that, before laying out a bunch of cayshe on an expensive PV system, there are a lot of much cheaper ways to reduce your energy bill that should be taken care of first. Caulking and insulation would just be scratching the surface.

CFLs - as much as the knuckledraggers hate them they use a fraction of the energy that incandescent bulbs use, and the cost has come way down. LEDs are even better but still pretty expensive.
Programmable thermostats - set back your heating and cooling temperatures when you're not home. Don't set it for 72 deg in the summer - get some fans, put on some shorts, set it at 80 and you'll save a lot.
Replace old appliances with newer more efficient ones - lots of utilities give substantial rebates for refrigerator replacements.
Get rid of the extra fridge and freezer in your garage - you can do without them, and you would be amazed at what energy hogs they are.
Hire a Messican to pump your pool for 8 hours a day -

[Left Seater]

Get rid of the extra fridge and freezer in your garage - you can do without them, and you would be amazed at what energy hogs they are.
Hire a Messican to pump your pool for 8 hours a day -

No need to get rid of the fridge and freezer in the garage, just get or remodel a place where you can keep them in the laundry room or other places where the air is conditioned.

[Mikey]

Get rid of the extra fridge and freezer in your garage - you can do without them, and you would be amazed at what energy hogs they are.
Hire a Messican to pump your pool for 8 hours a day -

No need to get rid of the fridge and freezer in the garage, just get or remodel a place where you can keep them in the laundry room or other places where the air is conditioned.

While that's true to a certain degree refrigerators on average account for somewhere between 10% to 15% of any household's electricity use (and the average house has one of them). If you add a second fridge you're adding an additional 10% to 15% to your electric bill. Plus, a lot of second refrigerators tend to be older models that were banished from the kitchen when somebody bought a new one. A fridge manufactured in 2000 is going to use about 50% more electricity than a new one.

[smackaholic]

I think you are a little full of shit on the second fridge energy use numbers simply because that extra fridge or extra freezer is not opened 937 times a day. It will add to use, but, assuming the door deal still works, it really won't run that much.

[Left Seater]

Agree, we may go days or more without opening the fridge and freezer in the laundry room.

[Goober McTuber]

In a lot places were the solar potential is greatest additional insulation and, especially, window caulking will make very little difference. Most people who put up solar systems either 1) don't live in the northeast where window caulking and extra insulation would make a big difference or 2) can afford homes that are already fairly tight.

I would disagree with you. Many places with solar potential can also benefit from additional insulation and caulking. Further these measures also work very well in reverse of places like the Northeast, ie keeping the hot air out.

Kind of a moot point in Mikey's house, as there's a hot air source inside the house.

[Mikey]

In a lot places were the solar potential is greatest additional insulation and, especially, window caulking will make very little difference. Most people who put up solar systems either 1) don't live in the northeast where window caulking and extra insulation would make a big difference or 2) can afford homes that are already fairly tight.

I would disagree with you. Many places with solar potential can also benefit from additional insulation and caulking. Further these measures also work very well in reverse of places like the Northeast, ie keeping the hot air out.

Kind of a moot point in Mikey's house, as there's a hot air source inside the house.

If you insult my wife again I'll fight you.

[Dan Vogel]

Not that I am advocating anyone other than Dan Vogel to take his own life, most policies pay on suicide if the policy was paid on for more than one year.

You really wish a person would be depressed enough to kill himself just because you disagreed with them on a message board? I wonder how you would really feel if my wife logged on this board one day and left a message that I had died. I have all my internet passwords in a book so she could do that. You would really go to celebrate it? I don't even know anyone personally on this message board but I would feel sad to learn that someone was found dead. I look at every person with value. Even on death row and I don't support the death penalty. Sure I got mad at those people at work a while ago but I forgive them now and still don't want them dead. I don't consider death a joking matter but whatever floats your own boat. I'm alive. Does that make you angry?

[Dinsdale]

No need to get rid of the fridge and freezer in the garage, just get or remodel a place where you can keep them in the laundry room or other places where the air is conditioned.

And Lefty gets himself a big ol' :FACEPALM:.

Do you leave the fridge door open to cool down the house, too?

You know planes -- your understanding of heat exchangers... not so much.

[Left Seater]

Dins,

Are you saying it is more economical to run a fridge in a non air conditioned garage, than it is in a laundry or other air conditioned part of the house?

[Mikey]

Dins,

Are you saying it is more economical to run a fridge in a non air conditioned garage, than it is in a laundry or other air conditioned part of the house?

Dins makes a good point, and actually it depends on the season.

Any heat that the fridge rejects is rejected into the space that it's sitting in. The fridge will use less power in a conditioned space, but in the summer that heat adds an equivalent load to the A/C. In the winter it reduces your heating load.

[Left Seater]

I doubt the heat from the fridge in an ac area in a 12 hour period is anywhere close to the heat gain from just opening an exterior door one time.

[Mikey]

I doubt the heat from the fridge in an ac area in a 12 hour period is anywhere close to the heat gain from just opening an exterior door one time.

Not much "net" heat being rejected by the vapor compresson cycle but you might be surprised at how much is added by the motor driving the compressor.

[mvscal]

I wonder how you would really feel if my wife logged on this board one day and left a message that I had died.

I would feel...busy and then, eventually, exhausted and in need of a sandwich.