how soon we forget

[poptart]

God orders the killing of innocent people...

Innocent people?

Uhh... no.


Long story short, we know that God has given us a limited time on planet earth.
God, Who created us, has every right to determine the length of our time.

The end. :)

[Smackie Chan]

" It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered."

[Mikey]

My younger brother was sitting at the breakfast table with his wife in their apartment about a block away from the WTC (at the marina) when it happened. He saw the second plane fly past, from his window. As they got out of their building he made what he says was one of the dumbest decisions of his life. He realized that he "forgot to lock the door" and went back up to lock the apartment. They didn't find each other again for three days. As he was coming back down the stairs there was an old lady who was having problems, so he helped her climb down. People behind them were cursing him for being in their way. They couldn't get back into their apartment (which wasn't actually damaged) to get their belongings for something like two months. By then the refrigerator had become a very interesting thing.

He told me once that the most vivid memory he had of those minutes when he was running for his life was women's shoes. Hundreds of women's shoes, mostly heels, left on the sidewalks.

Anyway, he remembers. But he doesn't dwell on it.

[Jay in Phoenix]

God orders the killing of innocent people...

Innocent people?

Uhh... no.

Really pops? So, NONE of those people were innocent? Not even the children? First born in every house in Egypt, just 'cause Moses had a bloody tampon ring a bell?

Please.

Long story short, we know that God has given us a limited time on planet earth.
God, Who created us, has every right to determine the length of our time.

The end.

Actually, it's our biology that gives us a limited time on earth. Great-god-damn divine design that was!

[LTS TRN 2]

Psssst! Hey LTN, listen up. We didn't land on the moon either. And Kennedy was shot by a second gunman. Just remember, you didn't hear this from me, ok? I gotta go-- the CIA is tracking me by my silver-mercury fillings and I don't like to stay in one place for very long. Catch ya on the flip side, Capricorn One.

Okay, Rooster, do you actually believe the Warren Commission Report? Because as sure as we did go to the moon, there were of course other shooters. Wake up.

blah blah blah

seriously, what kind of an asshole thinks 9/11 was some conspiracy perpetrated by government officials to push an agenda?

and how would one go about keeping the hundreds thousands tens of thousands of people needed to pull off something like this quiet?

Well, consider that the conspiracies surrounding the assassinations of both JFK and RFK have successfully been kept from blowing up. So...big secrets can be kept. And no, thousands of people were not necessary. Hundreds perhaps, probably a lot less. Permanently sealing the evidence is a pretty good start, with a solid media disinformation/smear campaign against investigators. But most of all, that which protects the cover-up--just as with JFK--is exactly the same reason a devout Catholic really isn't interested in a scientific rational debunking of the Shroud of Turin. And that's because just as the average American regards the prospect of a basically honest and "free" government as a nurturing part of daily life, just like the religious belief in a stern but protective God.

The idea that indeed we've been easily duped into a Permanent War on "terror" by a pathetically clumsy Reichstag Fire is depressing enough in itself. That it was carried out on behalf of the vile fake state would cause a revolution tomorrow. Got it?

And SS, your tedious playground taunt and run nonsense is done. Look, the fact of true path of the "flight 77" plane reveals that the damage to poles and so forth was fabricated, for starters. The curiously small hole with the slightest of debris was most likely a bomb and the (fake 77) flew right over the fireball in a carefully timed maneuver. As for your insisting that basic physics somehow support any part of the official story, this is just Rovian inversion 101. Go ahead, actually try to defend any of the physics. :wink:

[mvscal]

" It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”.

The commandment is against murder not killing.

[Van]

How does one kill the first born in every house in Egypt without murdering them?

[Python]

How does one kill the first born in every house in Egypt without murdering them?

You don't lead 'em as much.

(OK, so that didn't really fit. Whatever.)

[mvscal]

How does one kill the first born in every house in Egypt without murdering them?

Murder is an unlawful killing, idiot.

[Jay in Phoenix]

The commandment is against murder not killing.

Apples meet oranges. Semantics much mvscal?

[mvscal]

The commandment is against murder not killing.

Apples meet oranges. Semantics much mvscal?

The difference between killing and murder is a great deal more than mere sematics, dumbfuck.
If you're still confused, keep your dickbeaters off the keyboard and think about it some more.

[Smackie Chan]

How does one kill the first born in every house in Egypt without murdering them?

Musta been a loophole.

[mvscal]

Depends on which "bible" you tend to believe or not.

No, it doesn't. Just look at this thread. Most people are too stupid to know the difference between killing and murder in their own fucking language.

[Van]

How does one kill the first born in every house in Egypt without murdering them?

Murder is an unlawful killing, idiot.

So it suddenly became lawful to drag (redundancy alert! redundancy alert!) innocent infants from their beds and kill them merely for being the first born of their house?

That's just awesome.

[Mikey]

How does one kill the first born in every house in Egypt without murdering them?

Murder is an unlawful killing, idiot.

So it suddenly became lawful to drag (redundancy alert! redundancy alert!) innocent infants from their beds and kill them merely for being the first born of their house?

That's just awesome.

If whatever government is in power (and Pharaoh was the decider in chief at the time) says it's OK then it's not murder and therefore not sinful.

[Jay in Phoenix]

The difference between killing and murder is a great deal more than mere sematics, dumbfuck.
If you're still confused, keep your dickbeaters off the keyboard and think about it some more.

Damn, it still doesn't take much to push your moronic little buttons, does it champ? Killing = death. Murder= death. Two paths to the same final destination.

And it still makes poptarts' mythical little G-spot a cold-blooded mythical hypocrite. But who gives a whoop, it's all bullshit anyway.

Now keep your grubby little gaysmack to yourself, and pound a nice bottle of fruity beer while you're at it. Keep your pinkies pointed up while you do it twinkle-toes.

[mvscal]

So it suddenly became lawful to drag (redundancy alert! redundancy alert!) innocent infants from their beds and kill them merely for being the first born of their house?

The whole fucking point of the drill is that they weren't innocent. The Egyptian people were being punished by God for their continued enslavement of the Jews. That's isn't murder by any definition.

The Old Testament is chock full of killing. God orders Israelites to kill all the time. Obviously, there is no problem with killing. The commandment is against murder and that isn't the same thing.

[Van]

If whatever government is in power (and Pharaoh was the decider in chief at the time) says it's OK then it's not murder and therefore not sinful.

Even better, apparently our All-Loving God was totally kosher with it.

I love that big knucklehead.

[Left Seater]

LTS asking anyone to defend the physics of anything when he doesn't even have the same understanding of an 8 year old is too funny.

[mvscal]

Killing = death. Murder= death. Two paths to the same final destination.

OK. So if some maniac breaks into your home, violently attacks your family and you manage to kill him, you won't have any objection to spending the rest of your life in prison for murder because it's the same thing, right?

Just fuck off, seriously.

[Van]

So it suddenly became lawful to drag (redundancy alert! redundancy alert!) innocent infants from their beds and kill them merely for being the first born of their house?

The whole fucking point of the drill is that they weren't innocent. The Egyptian people were being punished by God for their continued enslavement of the Jews.

So cute little babies were enslaving Jews? Damn, with skills like that, it's a wonder those darn Egyptians were never able to make more of themselves. Bare minimum, you'd think they would at least win a Spelling Bee now and then, or something.

That's isn't murder by any definition.

Killing the enslavers? Perhaps not, though it's debatable. Killing the first born who had nothing to do with any of it?

Yeah, that's murder.

[LTS TRN 2]

Which is more plausible?

A: George W. Bush and his cabal of co-conspirators made the real Flight 77 disappear and sent a "fake 77" to fly very close to, but over, the Pentagon where it was disguised from view by a giant fireball caused by a planted bomb.

B: George W. Bush and the US Intelligence apparatus he was in charge of failed to sniff out an Al-Qaeda plot to hijack commercial airliners and fly them into buildings with symbolic significance such as the twin towers of the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and either the White House or the US Capitol.

If you select A, explain how Bush convinced Ted Olson to agree to disappear his wife, who was a passenger on the real Flight 77. Explain why persons to either side or the rear of the Pentagon did not see the "fake 77" rocket away behind the bomb fireball after it flew over the Pentagon. And explain why no one involved in this massive conspiracy has blown the whistle on it?

First, it's not either/or at all. Those aren't the only scenarios at all. To suggest that the Chimp n' Cheney "failed to sniff out" the attack is a wild understatement at best. The wholesale stand down, conveniently aligned with a series of "practice maneuvers" at the exact same time so no one could react at all, for example, goes way beyond coincidence. The obvious controlled demolition of the towers--and the massive WTC 7 which also dropped perfectly despite not being hit (and whose collapse was announced a half hour before it occurred)--these are not acceptable to physics, common sense, or in the actual event. And what about the Magic Passport that miraculously immediately appeared in the rubble, providing the ONLY so-called evidence that the so-called hijacker was even on board? You just accept this and stroll along, content that the bad guys were (very) promptly identified and their home base countries ready to accept our Freedoms?

As to why the conspirators have remained silent, consider the JFK assassination--it was done for big reasons which people believed in completely. And too the New Pearl harbor openly desired by the PNAC neocon group is something which these guys believe is absolutely necessary, period. Theirs is a clearly delineated agenda of some Cold War wet dream of an American Empire bestriding the globe as the greatest power, etc. Of course it's a demented and false paradigm just the results of the New Pearl Harbor have proven catastrophic. Similarly, the current false flag gasoline-on-a-fire stunt playing out is a desperate move to maintain the necessary "leadership" security efforts. Try looking at the big picture instead of peering out of your fear hole in the backyard.

[Jay in Phoenix]

The whole fucking point of the drill is that they weren't innocent. The Egyptian people were being punished by God for their continued enslavement of the Jews. That's isn't murder by any definition.

Hold the phone there sport. So you're saying that the Egyptian people were being punished. Okay, fair enough. But then, why would this God fella want to endorse the slaughter of children, including babies, who are innocent. Or are you saying you buy into the whole "born with sin" concept that rocks Poptarts' spinning world?

Hey, it's a rhetorical question, so save your smarmy response.

[LTS TRN 2]

Is this place completely melting down?

Mall Cop is asserting that the Bible is its own legal foundation? Whoah jim...and this is the crank that you twits regard as some kind of expert on history and military and legalistic matters?

What a fucking disgrace.

[Jay in Phoenix]

We are not talking reality of current law, we are talking about mentally twisted, hallucinating, self serving, ignorant thumpers from times past. And some current, unfortunatly.

Exactly. Too bad mvskook can't differentiate that little fact. No, he has to twiddle his digits in a fret over the semantics of the definition of the cessation of an innocent life. Try to get back on track mv, and quit peeing in the pool with your distractions of the subject at hand.

[Wolfman]

Some dude trying to murder me? I have no problem killing him.

[mvscal]

The context here is not reality and precision of language.

Actually the context certainly is the precision of language. Do you think the Bible was written in English? How many scholars do you suppose were proficient in Hebrew in early 17th century England? How many errors in translation do you think have crept into the text in dozens of translations over the centuries? It's pretty obvious you don't speak a second language. In fact, you're barely literate in your own.

What you think of the Bible or religion is totally beside the point. A commandment against killing is not internally consistent with narrative. The commandments were rules to govern and keep order within Judaic society. A commandment against killing would make self defense and war against the will of God and a cursory glance at the rest of the case clearly demonstrates the absurdity of that particular translation.

[smackaholic]

Defending your family is the same thing as plucking the eldest male out of every house to whack them?

[mvscal]

So you're saying that the Egyptian people were being punished. Okay, fair enough. But then, why would this God fella want to endorse the slaughter of children, including babies, who are innocent.

Who says these babies were innocent? You? Based on what? Your 21st century ideal of justice?Do you have any idea how utterly stupid it is to apply that to people who lived thousands of years ago? They had some different ideas back then and collective punishment was not only acceptable, it was expected. Those babies were Egyptian people and the Egyptian people were to be punished.

It might be unjust in your personal opinion but your personal opinion doesn't count for shit. A lot of people think capital punishment is unjust. That doesn't make executions murder.

[mvscal]

Defending your family is the same thing as plucking the eldest male out of every house to whack them?

As a matter of fact, it is EXACTLY the same thing. The God of the Jews was defending his Chosen by smiting their oppressors.

[Van]

Who gives a shit? Killing a baby in its bed is murder, and State-sanctioned murder is still murder.

[mvscal]

Killing a baby in its bed is murder, and State-sanctioned murder is still murder.

You have mistaken your opinion for fact and then applied 21st century Western moral values to a bronze age Middle Eastern culture. Only idiots do such things.

Every society makes the distinction between killing and unlawful killing (murder). Those distinctions don't always square with our own view of law or justice. A samurai in feudal Japan could hack a peasant to pieces just to test the edge of his sword and that wouldn't be murder. God could wipe out every first born male in every Egyptian household and that wouldn't be murder. In fact, God can't commit murder since he makes the rules.

[mvscal]

Why limit it to the 17th century?

Because that's when the King James Bible was written, you gibbering ass.

[LTS TRN 2]

Killing a baby in its bed is murder, and State-sanctioned murder is still murder.

In fact, God can't commit murder since he makes the rules.

Alright, the Rubicon of even nominal sanity has been crossed and pissed in by the Tea Bagging racist morons--hey, am I referring to the whole GOP or just this palsied forum?

Okay, let's throw Mall Cop a peanut.

Uh, mall Cop, if God can't commit murder, and he has made all the rules, then...shouldn't all "witches" be killed at once? After all, He clearly orders it. And besides the punishment visited upon the Egyptians (and of course there's no record whatsoever of any of the Bible stories happening at all--before , say the Maccabee debacle), does it follow in your devout belief that the preemptive extermination of the Canaanites as demanded in Deuteronomy was similarly not murder at all--and thus similar actions at taking possession of the "promised land" aren't murder or criminal either? I suppose that's a rhetorical question for a blathering mouth breather like yourself, but it's nice to have you in a neat box with p-tart and the other dutifully devout. You never cease to surprise and disgust.

[mvscal]

...if God can't commit murder, and he has made all the rules, then...shouldn't all "witches" be killed at once? After all, He clearly orders it.

If the Bible was the law of our land, you might have a point.

does it follow in your devout belief that the preemptive extermination of the Canaanites as demanded in Deuteronomy was similarly not murder at all--and thus similar actions at taking possession of the "promised land" aren't murder or criminal either?

As an atheist, I have no devout belief but the answer to your question is, no, those actions were not murder. It was war and that was the way they were fought. The wide scale and indiscriminate killing of noncombatants was a commonly accepted aspect of warfare as recently sixty or seventy years ago.

[poptart]

Really pops? So, NONE of those people were innocent? Not even the children?

I believe there is none righteous.
All life is created by God, and we all know that it is surely limited in time.
God has every right to decide when time is up.

And it still makes poptarts' mythical little G-spot a cold-blooded mythical hypocrite.

No, God didn't give the Commandments for Himself.
He gave them for the Israelites - who He created.

People are merely creations.

Knowing your place is the first step toward understanding.

[Felix]

Well, consider that the conspiracies surrounding the assassinations of both JFK and RFK have successfully been kept from blowing up.

what conspiracies are those....that some dudes on the grassy knoll shot JFK?

So...big secrets can be kept. And no, thousands of people were not necessary. Hundreds perhaps, probably a lot less.

are you out of your mind....the government can't orchestrate a rescue operation in New Orleans, what makes you think they could pull something like this off?

Permanently sealing the evidence is a pretty good start, with a solid media disinformation/smear campaign against investigators. But most of all, that which protects the cover-up--just as with JFK--is exactly the same reason a devout Catholic really isn't interested in a scientific rational debunking of the Shroud of Turin. And that's because just as the average American regards the prospect of a basically honest and "free" government as a nurturing part of daily life, just like the religious belief in a stern but protective God.

what is this "evidence" you say has been permanently sealed? you see, any rational human being would simply accept the fact that some brilliant strategy on the part of those that would do us harm made the entire thing possible....it's a one time thing that wouldn't work again, but none the less, they were able to take advantage of holes in the US security and we paid a heavy price for it.....

The idea that indeed we've been easily duped into a Permanent War on "terror" by a pathetically clumsy Reichstag Fire is depressing enough in itself. That it was carried out on behalf of the vile fake state would cause a revolution tomorrow. Got it?

I repeat my first question: what kind of an asshole thinks the American government would perpetrate something like this on the American people just to push some kind of agenda....the fact that you simply can't comprehend how some islamic fanatics could pull this off doesn't make it any less true.....people like you are truly the most dangerous people in the US, because no amount of evidence, proofs, scientific analysis will sway you from this unfounded and totally irresponsible belief that our government would subject the american people to this kind of tragedy in order to start a war.....do I think Bush took advantage of the situation-absolutely....while the american people were trying to get their minds around what had just happened, the Bush cabinet was taking full advantage of the circumstances to drum up war with Iraq......but that's a long way from putting together the largest conspiracy ever perpetuated on human kind in order to invade Baghdad....that's the ramblings of someone that's not to mentally stable....

[LTS TRN 2]

...if God can't commit murder, and he has made all the rules, then...shouldn't all "witches" be killed at once? After all, He clearly orders it.

If the Bible was the law of our land, you might have a point.

does it follow in your devout belief that the preemptive extermination of the Canaanites as demanded in Deuteronomy was similarly not murder at all--and thus similar actions at taking possession of the "promised land" aren't murder or criminal either?

As an atheist, I have no devout belief but the answer to your question is, no, those actions were not murder. It was war and that was the way they were fought. The wide scale and indiscriminate killing of noncombatants was a commonly accepted aspect of warfare as recently sixty or seventy years ago.

60 or 70 years ago?

And...when was that fateful day of moral awakening when such slaughter became a crime?

And if you're excusing the followers of those orders given on the plains of Moab because it was their God, well why wouldn't the same logic apply to the current Muslims who declare jihad?

As always your tedious childish loop comes back to "might makes right"--and in short, that's why you're a nasty little racist nazi creep.

[LTS TRN 2]

Well, consider that the conspiracies surrounding the assassinations of both JFK and RFK have successfully been kept from blowing up.

what conspiracies are those....that some dudes on the grassy knoll shot JFK?

So...big secrets can be kept. And no, thousands of people were not necessary. Hundreds perhaps, probably a lot less.

are you out of your mind....the government can't orchestrate a rescue operation in New Orleans, what makes you think they could pull something like this off?

Permanently sealing the evidence is a pretty good start, with a solid media disinformation/smear campaign against investigators. But most of all, that which protects the cover-up--just as with JFK--is exactly the same reason a devout Catholic really isn't interested in a scientific rational debunking of the Shroud of Turin. And that's because just as the average American regards the prospect of a basically honest and "free" government as a nurturing part of daily life, just like the religious belief in a stern but protective God.

what is this "evidence" you say has been permanently sealed? you see, any rational human being would simply accept the fact that some brilliant strategy on the part of those that would do us harm made the entire thing possible....it's a one time thing that wouldn't work again, but none the less, they were able to take advantage of holes in the US security and we paid a heavy price for it.....

The idea that indeed we've been easily duped into a Permanent War on "terror" by a pathetically clumsy Reichstag Fire is depressing enough in itself. That it was carried out on behalf of the vile fake state would cause a revolution tomorrow. Got it?

I repeat my first question: what kind of an asshole thinks the American government would perpetrate something like this on the American people just to push some kind of agenda....the fact that you simply can't comprehend how some islamic fanatics could pull this off doesn't make it any less true.....people like you are truly the most dangerous people in the US, because no amount of evidence, proofs, scientific analysis will sway you from this unfounded and totally irresponsible belief that our government would subject the american people to this kind of tragedy in order to start a war.....do I think Bush took advantage of the situation-absolutely....while the american people were trying to get their minds around what had just happened, the Bush cabinet was taking full advantage of the circumstances to drum up war with Iraq......but that's a long way from putting together the largest conspiracy ever perpetuated on human kind in order to invade Baghdad....that's the ramblings of someone that's not to mentally stable....

Felix, yours is a shallow and blindered approach.

You're going to start out by going all in on the Warren Commission findings? And that there are no serious questions concerning the official story? Really? And...you are a total Skoal packin' moron?

As for the permanently sealed evidence, start with all of the (many) security camera tapes at the pentagon which where immediately impounded, sealed and--gone. Okay..why haven't we seen a SINGLE picture of flight 77 hitting the pentagon? After all, there are dozens of video cameras all around at all times. And what, you don't think this a bit odd?

Now...are you really prepared to go on pretending that "Felix" has any credibility at all? That you're that thick and yet somehow still on the beam, making sense?

You insist that there's scientific evidence to support the sudden perfect collapse of WTC 7--and yet you offer absolutely nothing in the face of an absurdly impossible event as officially explained.

As to how "our government' could possibly do such a thing, I refer to you to the Lavon Affair, the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty, and the Pollard case as examples of extremely callous and murderous actions being conducted for "necessary" reasons. And if the fake Russian gangster state acts by any code, it's By Any Means Necessary.

Wake the Fuck Up

[LTS TRN 2]

Well that's the same old inconclusive non-evidence they rolled out years ago. Like the so-called Bin Laden confession tape, It's a total joke designed for the WWF crowd--which is pretty big. Gee, notice that no matter how slow it's played you can't see a jet liner at all? And what, that's supposed to be the only tape they impounded around one of the most secured areas in the world?

Seriously, is that all you've got--and why don't you demand a lot more?