Rand Paul Kicking Ass

[Left Seater]

His health care plan? That's simply a common sense move that all other developed nations utilize. It (if actually implemented) saves tremendous amounts of money for the average consumer. What else?

Exactly how does his plan save money for the average consumer when it goes against all actuarial info. There is no underwriting on Obamacare. Everyone gets coverage with every pre existing condition covered. What that means is we are all paying more to cover everyone and everything. The other huge problem with it is the fact that the tax penalty for not having the coverage is way to low to prevent people from joining and canceling. Unless the tax penalty is higher someone can just wait until they are very ill, say cancer and then join. We all then have to pay for their coverage and once the cancer treatments are done, they can go back to paying the tax.

Also, if this is such a great system that the rest of the world uses, why do Heads of States, Kings, and the uber rich from around the world get treatment at The Cleveland Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, etc, etc?

[Dr_Phibes]

Also, if this is such a great system that the rest of the world uses, why do Heads of States, Kings, and the uber rich from around the world get treatment at The Cleveland Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, etc, etc?

Look, sorry for cracking on the paintjob, but did someone drop you on your head?

[Left Seater]

So are saying these folks don't come here for treatments?

[BSmack]

So are saying these folks don't come here for treatments?

I think he saying that just because a bunch of rich twats come to Cleveland to jump their rightful place in line doesn't mean you have a valid argument.

[Screw_Michigan]

Also, if this is such a great system that the rest of the world uses, why do Heads of States, Kings, and the uber rich from around the world get treatment at The Cleveland Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, etc, etc?

Boy, are you really this thick in real life or is this an act you play on this board? Christ.

[Mikey]

So are saying these folks don't come here for treatments?

A lot of Americans go overseas for treatment because they can get equivalent quality for a fraction of the price. So what's your point?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

At some point, you'll want to see to the health and well being of the automatons that work your machinery, 88.

Unless your workforce is replaceable by a steady stream of Mexican [KC Scott]muscle[/KC Scott]...

[Left Seater]

Mikey,

Plenty of these medical vacations end very poorly. I have a friend who flies for PrivateFly and strictly handles medical evacuations. He is on call 24/7 for two weeks at a time. During each two week shift he averages two flights from Europe/Africa back to North America with patients in critical condition who went overseas for medical treatment. The most recent was a lady who went on a Face Lift Safari. Get a face lift then while recovering (hiding from friends) he face literally started falling off. She is back in the States with 2 surgeries down and at least 2 more to go and prolly a month long hospital stay.

Where would you rather your family went for serious medical issues if not in the US?

[LTS TRN 2]

So are saying these folks don't come here for treatments?

A lot of Americans go overseas for treatment because they can get equivalent quality for a fraction of the price. So what's your point?

That is absolutely true. But as you point out, the reason for that is economic, not a quality of care issue. The economic issue is partly due to Federal regulations and partly due to liability issues. The FDA approval process in the United States is very expensive and time consuming. Accordingly, drugs and treatments are frequently available overseas at lower cost many years before they are available here. And Flying Spaghetti Monster help you if you should find that you have been bunged up overseas by a negligent doctor or medical care facility. And don't get me started on the problems with the patent system worldwide, which cost the U.S. citizenry billions and billions of dollars in higher medical expenses each year, and which constitute hidden subsidies to the public healthcare systems of other nations around the world.

Lefty's point, which anyone with an ability to understand the English language can readily understand and which none of you can answer directly without making your arguments for a public healthcare system look as stupid as they are, is that the U.S. private health care system is among the best in the world, and those with the means to choose to be treated anywhere in the world at any cost frequently choose U.S. health care facilities because of the high quality of health care available here without waiting in line.

Let me give you a real example of health care in Japan. An 85-year old man checked into a first-rate Japanese hospital last summer, requiring surgeries for both a stomach and colon tumor. He stayed in the hospital for over a month, the surgeries were successful, and he was provided all medications and follow-up visits. Total cost: about $1100. This is standard. I did notice a news item recently of a Japanese man being refused by 25 hospitals, but this case was extenuating. As with the legacy of the great hero Hugo Chavez, your supplied info on other nations' health care has been dreadfully distorted by the standard right-wing hairball news. C'mon, get real.

[Mikey]

Mikey,

Plenty of these medical vacations end very poorly. I have a friend who flies for PrivateFly and strictly handles medical evacuations. He is on call 24/7 for two weeks at a time. During each two week shift he averages two flights from Europe/Africa back to North America with patients in critical condition who went overseas for medical treatment. The most recent was a lady who went on a Face Lift Safari. Get a face lift then while recovering (hiding from friends) he face literally started falling off. She is back in the States with 2 surgeries down and at least 2 more to go and prolly a month long hospital stay.

Where would you rather your family went for serious medical issues if not in the US?

First of all, I wouldn't call a face lift a serious medical issue, at least not for most of us (can't speak for smackaholic here).

Second, there are plenty of botched surgeries in the US. This is especially true for stuff like "minor" cosmetic procedures and liposuction where there are at lot of fly-by-night quacks out there. Going overseas for surgery, just like having it done here, you better do your fucking homework before you make a choice. Anybody flying to Lilongwe for a face lift better expect to come home with some nasty problems. On the other hand there are some excellent hospitals and surgeons operating overseas at a fraction of the cost in the US.

When I was researching my hip surgery I found that there are several doctors outside the US that have been practicing the same specialized hip resurfacing that I got for longer than any doctors in the US and with many more procedures under their belt. One doctor in India is the most experienced in the world. You can get it done there in Chennai, and recover for a week at a four star resort on the Bay of Bengal, including airfare, for not much more than I paid in deductibles and co-pays. It's really the only feasible choice for somebody without good insurance. You can also fly to England and get it done more cheaply than here by the doctor who basically invented it.

[BSmack]

So are saying these folks don't come here for treatments?

I think he saying that just because a bunch of rich twats come to Cleveland to jump their rightful place in line doesn't mean you have a valid argument.

KYOA much?

And yet here you are, in the very next post.

...because of the high quality of health care available here without waiting in line.

Ponderous

[Left Seater]

So if the surgeons were more experienced, and your out of pocket was equal or minimally more, why didn't you go to India? Or to England for that matter?

[Mikey]

Ponderous

Do you seen any lines in this picture?

[Mikey]

So if the surgeons were more experienced, and your out of pocket was equal or minimally more, why didn't you go to India? Or to England for that matter?

Pretty dumb question.

A 40 minute drive vs. two days of travel each way would be one reason.

I still had one of the best and most experienced surgeons (maybe 1000 procedures vs. 3000 or 4000) and the followups were a lot easier.

If I didn't have insurance I might have considered it. I never said that going abroad is necessarily a better choice but for some people it it's the only choice.

[smackaholic]

Mikey,

Plenty of these medical vacations end very poorly. I have a friend who flies for PrivateFly and strictly handles medical evacuations. He is on call 24/7 for two weeks at a time. During each two week shift he averages two flights from Europe/Africa back to North America with patients in critical condition who went overseas for medical treatment. The most recent was a lady who went on a Face Lift Safari. Get a face lift then while recovering (hiding from friends) he face literally started falling off. She is back in the States with 2 surgeries down and at least 2 more to go and prolly a month long hospital stay.

Where would you rather your family went for serious medical issues if not in the US?

First of all, I wouldn't call a face lift a serious medical issue, at least not for most of us (can't speak for smackaholic here).

Second, there are plenty of botched surgeries in the US. This is especially true for stuff like "minor" cosmetic procedures and liposuction where there are at lot of fly-by-night quacks out there. Going overseas for surgery, just like having it done here, you better do your fucking homework before you make a choice. Anybody flying to Lilongwe for a face lift better expect to come home with some nasty problems. On the other hand there are some excellent hospitals and surgeons operating overseas at a fraction of the cost in the US.

When I was researching my hip surgery I found that there are several doctors outside the US that have been practicing the same specialized hip resurfacing that I got for longer than any doctors in the US and with many more procedures under their belt. One doctor in India is the most experienced in the world. You can get it done there in Chennai, and recover for a week at a four star resort on the Bay of Bengal, including airfare, for not much more than I paid in deductibles and co-pays. It's really the only feasible choice for somebody without good insurance. You can also fly to England and get it done more cheaply than here by the doctor who basically invented it.

And what explains the big difference if price? In the case of India, it is simply that everyone makes less, including the doctor. But, that explanation doesn't fly in blighty. What is different has a little to do with gubmint subsidizing and a fukk ton to do with the added expense of dealing with the sharks in the legal system.

The rest of the world to their credit have dealt with these fukkers. We have not. And their chief defenders are the libs who cry about the costs as they point a finger at the big bad insurance companies.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

The irony of the world's best health care being wasted on the rich...

...who will do nothing with their years except extract more blood from workers.



It's like making sure that the best blood donated at blood banks goes to Dracula.

[Left Seater]

I never said that going abroad is necessarily a better choice but for some people it it's the only choice.

Bingo. In the US going abroad isn't necessarily a better choice, in most of the rest of the world, going to the US is the much better choice.

[Mikey]

And what explains the big difference if price? In the case of India, it is simply that everyone makes less, including the doctor. But, that explanation doesn't fly in blighty. What is different has a little to do with gubmint subsidizing and a fukk ton to do with the added expense of dealing with the sharks in the legal system.

The rest of the world to their credit have dealt with these fukkers. We have not. And their chief defenders are the libs who cry about the costs as they point a finger at the big bad insurance companies.

Yeah you're right. It's all because of the lawyers.

Nothing to do with $billions in insurance company profits or the costs that the hospitals pass on to paying customers to cover the uninsured patients they have to treat for free in the ER.

[Dr_Phibes]

And don't get me started on the problems with the patent system worldwide, which cost the U.S. citizenry billions and billions of dollars in higher medical expenses each year, and which constitute hidden subsidies to the public healthcare systems of other nations around the world.

Lefty's point, which anyone with an ability to understand the English language can readily understand and which none of you can answer directly without making your arguments for a public healthcare system look as stupid as they are, is that the U.S. private health care system is among the best in the world, and those with the means to choose to be treated anywhere in the world at any cost frequently choose U.S. health care facilities because of the high quality of health care available here without waiting in line.

I'll pay 5 dollars for five apples, rather than 20 dollars for six. Treating a CEO constitutes a service, not a system and that's the issue you're stuggling with.

Keep in mind you're the only country with too many empty beds, you're subsidising Canadian patients at the behest of the hospitals. When a facility opens or can't fill the beds - they establish relationships with Canadian doctors being a referral service. It helps absorb the loss, Canadians can get transport and specialised care in an American hospital, at or below cost to OHIP. The American taxpayer is getting the boot, but it's by design.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Interesting point, Phibes.

Here's a hypothetical question for you:

What if say, Wags, were to suffer injury in an industrial accident caused by one of his poorly constructed forms collapsing on him.
Would it not be cheaper to have his mangled, fly-over over ass air-ambulanced up here to Canada (with vital transplant organs kept cool in a chest full of shitty, ice-cold rice beer) and then transported back down to Retardsville U.S.A. where the American taxsucker can absorb the bill?

Ponder that, Bolivarian.

[Cuda]

Unless your workforce is replaceable by a steady stream of Mexican [KC Scott]muscle[/KC Scott]...

You mean Mexans, right?