$20 to build an NFL offense

[poptart]

Elway is worth discussing as far as QBs who got things done with their legs, but I wouldn't put him in the top 3 of all time in that regard.

Jay hit on some of the productive QB runners, and here are a few others...

Bobby Douglass: Went over 1,000 yds rushing four times. And that was in 14 game seasons.
Greg Landry
Roger Staubach
Steve McNair

[poptart]

I'm factoring in every aspect of his entire répertoire, and he remains, in my opinion, a top three QB

Well, you're one of the people Dins is talking about, I guess.

I think that is a very tough sell.

[Jay in Phoenix]

Like I said above, there's room for discussion. It would be easy enough to bring up some factors that weigh against Elway being a top 3 and I could certainly acquiesce to them.

Elway is not in my top three or even five favorite QB's as a fan. He is top 10 though. There are dozens of lists out there that make a solid argument both for and against Elway being a top 3 or even best overall QB of all time, as well as being one of the most overrated. Even when factoring in stats, it always boils down to an opinion. I've just seen enough qualifiers that have been listed, as well as having watched Elway throughout the course of his career. Having done that, without having watched a Unitas or a Starr, my opinion is that from a talent standpoint, from a productivity standpoint, from a Super Bowl standpoint, I see him as top 3.

As with any other opinion, I could be wrong.

[Dinsdale]

from a Super Bowl standpoint, I see him as top 3.

As with any other opinion, I could be wrong.

No "could be" about it -- you're straight up wrong.

2-3 in the Super Bowl, the 3 all pretty much being blowouts (with his fingers pointing at everyone but himself), isn't a sign of "greatness," it means you're a fucking loser. And his constant placing the blame on others, while taking credit for any success, is bad for morale, and he was a shitty leader to boot.

But what did anyone expect from a guy who threatened to take his ball and go home because he didn't like the team that drafted him?

As if that isn't enough, his post-football dream was to sell used cars.

Just an idiot.

[Dinsdale]

Sure, he only won two, but those two were blowouts.

What's to be confused by R-Jack?

I'm confused why you decided to flat-out make shit up.

Scoring a very late TD to win by 7 is a "blowout"?

With logic like that, I can see where you'd think Elway was some all-time great.

[Jay in Phoenix]

Well Dinsdale, I was waiting for your answer, and I have it.

It isn't just me that has Elway as an all-time great QB. But because you hate the guy, it doesn't mean he wasn't a great player. This is the point I was going after.

You said he was the most overrated PLAYER in the NFL. If you had said overrated quarterback, as I mentioned, there would be room for discussion, and there is. Lots of polls and overviews that go both directions on the subject. If you contrast him side by side with Montana, based on player longevity and other factors, he doesn't rate as highly. Still, there are other statistics that can be weighed in and you can go argue either way.

It's fine to not like a player based on some character issues, but don't ignore the talent that is obviously there.

You said he was the most overrated player and that is flat-out making shit up.

[Dinsdale]

If you contrast him side by side with Montana, based on player longevity

Making up more "facts," are you?

Montana and Elway played the same number of seasons. Montana missed more time with injuries.

So I guess we aren't basing anything on the respective longevity. I'd be more inclined to base a comparison on actual performance, and any statistical comparison isn't really all that close.

BTW - head-to-head, Elway pulled an 0-fer on his career against Montana. Including the Super Bowl (biggest blowout in SB history).

I eagerly await your next made-up "fact."

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Elway might be overrated but "he's got five SB appearances and two rings" and "he's a douche" aren't very persuasive arguments to support that claim.

[poptart]

Dins, I agree that Elway isn't in the top 3 all-time.
I think he might crack the top 10.
I might place him somewhere between 8-15, in a cluster of guys like Tarkenton, Favre, Young, Staubach...


Where do you rank him all-time?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

He's got him smack dab behind Akili Smith and Joey Harrington.

[poptart]

I'm almost as interested to know Jay's top 3 as I am to know where Dins ranks Elway.

For example...

Manning
Brady
Starr
Unitas
Montana

Which three are ranked by Jay to be lower than J. Elway?

[Dinsdale]

He's got him smack dab behind Akili Smith and Joey Harrington.

No, but he's behind Norm Van Brocklin, and probably Dan Fouts.

[Jay in Phoenix]

I'm almost as interested to know Jay's top 3 as I am to know where Dins ranks Elway.

For example...

Manning
Brady
Starr
Unitas
Montana

Which three are ranked by Jay to be lower than J. Elway?

Okay, keeping in mind my ranking of Elway is/was based on who I've actually seen play, to be fair, I went back to look at some of the older records. Without doing that, just based on players I've watched, I would still put Elway as number 3. But I'll do this the right way, based on history.

1. Joe Montana - Greatest QB in Super Bowl history, period. 'Nuff said.
2. Tom Brady - I hate this guy, for a number of reasons. Unlike Dins though, I'm being objective. Brady won three rings in four seasons and continues to excel. Plus his ridiculous win to loss record, he's number two.
3. Johnny Unitas - Three time MVP, back to back NFL Championships, won SB 5, perfected the two minute offense, etc. Hard to argue him being third.
4. John Elway - Started 5 Super Bowls, third most comebacks in league history, the Drive. Sure, he had Terrell Davis who was a huge factor, but you can say that for any QB. If Elway's body had not started to wear down as he developed into an experienced, cerebral quarterback, he might have been number 1...arguably.
5. Peyton Manning - His 5 MVP's, plus a ring. Yeah, he's gagged in the post season, but he's a supremely smart QB, perhaps the most cerebral and he's a leader.

Dinsdale can have his perceptions, but unless he backs it up with facts, it isn't reality he's dealing in.

[Dinsdale]

No, but he's behind Norm Van Brocklin, and probably Dan Fouts.

This is why you're knowledge of football is on par with Jess' knowledge of female anatomy

If you do a little research and increase you're knowledge of football, you can probably figure out why YHKYOA.

[smackaholic]

QB-tony eerrrrrr joe montano
RB-emmit smith
WR-rice,2 other dudes that keep me under budget
TE-dave casper (the bargain pick here for sure)

[poptart]

Casper was as good as any TE on the list.
John Mackey, too.

The list was made by someone with limited football knowledge.

Casper and Mackey are both in the HoF, yet Gronk and Graham are both twice as expensive.
That's wack.

Andre Reed is twice as expensive as Don Hutson.
:doh:
Beyond wack.

A case can be made that Hutson is the best NFL player ever, period.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

The vast majority of pro players from bygone eras would be lucky to make a college roster today. That's probably why.

[Killian]

QB- Bradshaw $2
RB - Faluk $4
WR - Rice $6
WR - Brown $3
WR - Harrison $3
TE - Casper $2

Most overrated? Why the fuck is Joe Namath in the HoF? Take his name away and look at his stats.

[BSmack]

A case can be made that Hutson is the best NFL player ever, period.

Hutson had his best years against rosters depleted by the draft boards during WWII. His numbers are grossly inflated.

[poptart]

It's interesting that nobody else came anywhere close to doing what he did against those... depleted rosters.

He was in his own stratosphere.

[poptart]

Yeah, Namath got in based mostly on his legend and the fact that he did it in NY.

But prior to ripping his knee(s) up, the man was pretty beastly.

He led the league in passing yards twice and could flat out get the ball deep downfield with what seemed to be just a flick of his wrist.

Joe Willie was a very talented slinger.

[Killian]

He had 2 years where he had more TD's than INT's. He has 47 more interceptions than touchdowns for his career. His completion % is 50.1 for his career. He had a below .500 winning % as a starting QB. He actually led the league in passing yards 3 times, and TD's once. All of those years saw 20+ picks as well.

He is Jeff George with a Super Bowl win.

[Goober McTuber]

Namath might have gotten in for his perceived role in bringing about the NFL-AFL merger.