how do we know?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Lightning bolts. Duh!

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Hercules is Zeus' son and there is verified proof that he existed.

[Jay in Phoenix]

This is not only true, but he looked eerily like the Rock.

There's a movie about it and everything.

[poptart]

Have you ever sincerely looked into the fulfillment of prophecy by Jesus Christ?
Maybe do so.


There is evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/eas ... josh2.html

I don't normally just throw a link up without at least making my own "summary" of what's in it, but click it and read it if you care to.

[poptart]

Did you click the link?

There is evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Zeus is for rills, you infidel.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Forgive him, oh great Zeus...he knows not of what he speaks...

[poptart]

Jsc, click the link and read the link.
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/eas ... josh2.html


Also, you're aware that the Bible is not one book, right?


The tomb was empty.
Read the link.


Now also, I mentioned fulfillment of prophecy by Jesus.
Click, scroll to (2) at the following link, and read -- about The Messianic Lineage.
http://thedevineevidence.com/prophecy_jesus.html


You're a lawyer, right?
An educated man.

Slow down, read it carefully and with an open mind.
Take a look at the evidence.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Every skeptical inquiry in your link is answered with a "because the Bible says so, that's why" answer.

[poptart]

I assume you're talking about the first link.
Because of your comment, I'm not sure you read the information in the link -- or maybe just skimmed it.

But beyond that, it's always interesting to me how people so easily dismiss Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.


Happy Thanksgiving!

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

"because the Bible says so, that's why"

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

[poptart]

Why shouldn't you believe Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?

[Jay in Phoenix]

No, the real question is, why should you believe?

Where's the actual, physical proof?

Is it this...


Or is it this...


At any rate, Happy Thanksgiving.

[poptart]

The circular reasoning is illustrated by the napkin religion.

And you have none, except 'it says so in the Bible.' And that is circular reasoning, which adds nothing in terms of evidence.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are separate books, written by separate people.


Did you read the links?

[Dinsdale]

Did you read the links?

I made it a couple of sentences into the first one, before I had to stop, due to laughter.

Maybe you could link up to something written by someone who knows what the word "fact" means?

There is only one historical record of the Resurrection, or any other such nonsense. As JSC has pointed out, there are literally dozens and dozens of historical records from the same time and region, yet oddly enough, not one of them mentions Jesus... strange omission from the myriad other historians of the time, no?

Overwhelming evidence suggests that the legend of Jesus (which is exactly what it is -- a legend) was penned well after the "fact."

[poptart]

There is only one historical record of the Resurrection, or any other such nonsense. As JSC has pointed out, there are literally dozens and dozens of historical records from the same time and region, yet oddly enough, not one of them mentions Jesus... strange omission from the myriad other historians of the time, no?

There are four separate historic records of the resurrection.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Tacitus, Josephus, The Talmud, and bar Serapion also wrote of Jesus.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f ... ounts.html

[poptart]

If an idea cannot withstand scrutiny, then it is not worthy of belief.

If Jesus is the Christ does not withstand your scrutiny, you don't have to believe it.
That's easy.

Again, there is as much evidence for God as there is Zeus.

I guess if one decides to ignore a whole lot of things, one could say that.

Matthew and John were apostles and eyewitnesses to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Mark was a disciple of the apostle Peter, and he verified the testimonies of Matthew and John with his own writing.

Luke was a physician and traveling companion of Paul.
He was right on the cutting edge of scene in those days.
If one reads it, they clearly see that his was written as a thorough historical account -- as he stated he was intending at the start of the text.

Luke 1:1-2
Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;


We have these four separate accounts on record, and they all relay the same thing.
So it's frankly always struck me as a bit preposterous when someone says "We have no evidence."

If someone says, "I don't want to regard this evidence," well, okay.

[Dinsdale]

So, a couple of guys looking to give themselves the authority of being holier-than-thou, and being the Word of God are absolute credible "witnesses"?

THAT's the entire basis of your argument?

What an unbelievable FAIL.

[poptart]

Matthew died a torturous martyr's death (as did the other apostles) and John lived his life out in exile.
These people were not seeking any rewards or status for their desire to let people know that Jesus is the Christ.

I've given a link listing some evidence for the resurrection -- and a link detailing the phenomenal fulfillment of prophecy.
If it's not good enough for you, you don't have believe it, Dins.

For me personally, the most powerful evidence is the evidence of my own life.
The Word is true.

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

So I tell about it.
Do with it what you want.

[poptart]

Lamenting over a lack of answer to prayer -----> while denying God, and Jesus Christ, shows a certain chutzpah.
I will say directly, as things stand now, there will be no answers for you.
In fact, the suffering will only increase.


When the Israelites painted the blood (shadow of the coming Christ) on their door frames, they became free from bondage in Egypt, under Pharaoh.
Now, when one takes faith in the blood of Christ (Romans 3:25), Who is the final and complete sacrifice, they become free from bondage to Satan.
Absent this step, one remains apart from God, a slave to satan, and absolutely, no answer will be coming.

In Ephesians, we clearly see what the contrast between the state of the believer and the non-believer.

Ephesians 2:1-6
[1] And you hath he quickened (made alive), who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


v.1 - the believer is alive, the non-believer is dead
v.2 - the non-believer is spiritually captured and is dragged about by satan and the world
v.3 - the wrath of God rests on the non-believer
v.4, 5 - one is made alive when the take faith in the blood of Christ, by God's love
v.6 - the believer is a citizen of Heaven


The believer does receive answers to prayer.
Answers based on faith -- and on God's will and Word.

Believers receive great answers even without praying -- because we are God's children.

[poptart]

You say (but not the Bible) that my prayers won't be answered. Fine then.

I don't try to post my opinions in this forum.

John 9:31
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.


I don't believe a mountain is going to move to the coast of Louisiana.
That's my level of faith -- or lack thereof.
And it may be that it does not match God's will.

There could perhaps be a misconception of what prayer is.
Jesus taught how to pray, as recorded in Matthew 6:8-13.

[8] for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread.
[12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

God's will be done.

I don't often have that many specific prayer topics.

My whole life is an answer.
Every day and every incident ("good" or "bad") is an answer.
I am God's child and He is leading me perfectly.


If I post an answer to my prayer that you find impressive enough, then you will believe?

The Pharisees would not believe in Jesus, and He said of them...

Luke 16:19
If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

He rose from the dead and has more than proven Himself.

[Goober McTuber]

This is not intended to be an exhaustive list but merely an illustrative one. These are things that (supposedly) happened, according to the Bible. And it is things of this nature that I'd like to see today. Pop says my prayers won't work because I lack the requisite faith, but surely he has enough faith, and even if he doesn't, I can get the cloistered nuns to pray (a very good friend is one of the very few people who has access to them, and they have prayed for certain things in the past).

So pop, let's identify something like the below and witness it happening. This will be great.


The sun and the moon staying still.

I think we're already half way there.

[poptart]

Pop says my prayers won't work because I lack the requisite faith

I said God won't hear you because you are not his child.
John 9:31, and others.

A talking snake

There was no talking snake.


Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Jsc, you are preoccupied with, and demanding to see, miracles, but a "miracle" is not definitely evidence for God.
Jesus said this...

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.


What needed to be seen -----> has already been seen.

Jesus fulfilled all Messianic prophecy.
He is the complete fulfillment of the Old Testament -- and He rose from the dead.
He FULLY proved Himself.


Like you, the Pharisees demanded a sign, and Jesus said, A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.
Matthew 16:4.

Three days in the pit - and rising again.

It is finished.
John 19:30.

[poptart]

Show me any actual evidence for the existence of your God (because it says so in the Bible isn't evidence)

The four separate, written Gospel accounts ARE evidence.
That is why those men wrote them.

If you're sincere, look into that more.


Again, read about the fulfillment of prophecy, and take time to look at (2), the Messianic Lineage.
http://thedevineevidence.com/prophecy_jesus.html

It is overwhelming.


And Josh McDowell wrote a good book on the subject.
It is free to read on the interweb.
Just click and read.
http://www.blufftonchurch.com/Josh-McDo ... penter.htm

[poptart]

Pop do you not see the circular reasoning in the napkin religion?

Do you not see that when you cite the Bible as proof of God, that you are making the exact flaw in reasoning?

We are clearly asked to have faith in God.
But without a doubt, the accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are evidence.
That is why they wrote their accounts.

Just because these four separate accounts where put together in one Book which is called The Bible, you decide to dismiss them.
But that's your call.
You can do what you want with it.


I've answered to you about your wish to see miracles.
This is your hang-up.

God has performed His will in many ways, through many people, for many reasons, through history.
At times there were/are a need for miracles to be shown.

Hebrews 1:1-2
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

Christ has finished everything and He has fully proved Himself.



Luke 16:19
If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[poptart]

My prayers are answered every day.


There is the Word, prayer, and evangelism.
They are all the same thing.

God has given His Word (contained in the Bible, and Jesus, Who is the Word), believers pray, and the Word is fulfilled.
In this age, the overriding Word for us, and the reason God is moving the world, is for the sake of world evangelization.
Matthew 24:14, Matthew 28:16-20, Acts 1:8.

"Prayer" is enjoying God being with me.
Prayer can also be for specific things.

Every event (good, bad, whatever) for me is an answer, because within that incident God is fulfilling His Word and His plan, which is world evangelization.


Now you demand some specific "miracle" event to be shown, because you have decided that such a thing must be shown if we are to really believe that God exists.
He's already shown that He exists -- over and over again.
And you can feel and see it yourself every day.

In my personal case, my life was ruined.
I won't share the details, but God brought me out and revived me in the most perfect way -- towards the fulfillment of Matthew 24:14, Matthew 28:16-20, Acts 1:8.
And I see these Words being fulfilled every day.
Answers daily.
As I said, everything is an answer, my entire life is an answer.

The believer should understand his identity -- because it is a PHENOMENAL thing.
The believer is a source of blessings.
Read it.
Genesis 12:1-3, Galatians 3:29.


There are many healing examples today.
In the Book of Acts, of course there is the famous incident where Peter raised a crippled man by proclaiming for him to get up in the name of Jesus Christ.

I have a pastor friend who has a woman in his congregation who has been wheelchair bound for many years.
Completely debilitated.
He said that he always wanted to proclaim for her to GET UP IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, as Peter did, but in his heart, he did not believe it would happen.
So instead, he prayed for her saying, "I know God will raise you up one day." lol

One day she walked into his office.


Don't think healings are not occurring now, because they are.
In fact, there is no true healing for any person apart from Jesus Christ.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Don't think healings are not occurring now, because they are.

There's no healing in the Falcon's future. That franchise should be dismembered and scattered to the four corners of the earth. Christ Almighty...

[War Wagon]

ah, the theology forum, or in this case, mythology... where atheists go to prove that God doesn't exist. But how do you prove a negative? You can't, so why even try? Does other people having faith in a power greater than oneself really disturb you?

let's see something extraordinary today.

You woke up today, as did I. That in and of itself is extraordinary. Life is precious and today, this day, is all we have. Make the best of it.

[Jay in Phoenix]

ah, the theology forum, or in this case, mythology... where atheists go to prove that God doesn't exist. But how do you prove a negative? You can't, so why even try? Does other people having faith in a power greater than oneself really disturb you?

let's see something extraordinary today.

You woke up today, as did I. That in and of itself is extraordinary. Life is precious and today, this day, is all we have. Make the best of it.

I completely agree with you here Wags, because every day each of us awakens, takes and breath and lives, it is indeed a gift. It is extraordinary and it is indeed precious. However, is it a miracle..? If life itself is a miracle, then yes. If life itself is a random series of events, then no. This is where we have to differentiate faith from fact. I have tremendous faith in the human spirit and the soul. I have faith in our ability to interconnect on an unimaginable, invisible and inconceivable level. I believe there is an existence beyond our imagining, yet what it is, I cannot know.

I also believe and know we can be and are our own worst enemies, maim each other, slaughter each other and claim it all in the name of God.

We can also love each other. We just don't do it often enough.

Here's the thing. Faith is a wonderful thing, a gift and the candle that burns and keeps bright our spirits.

However, it is not proof of anything other than what it is...faith.

The Bible is the seminal Book of our human faith, but it is not a record of historic fact. At least, not one that can be held on any level of physical, certifiable proof of our own history. It is a series of stories and parables, one that its' multitude of anonymous authors readialy admit. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are seperate stories, written by seperate people, but not proven to be the ones named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Bible has been edited and rewritten over time, for reasons political and profitable. Discerning the truth from the fiction is nearly impossible now.

So, it comes down to faith.

But faith, no matter how strong nor how devoted, can never be argued as proof of fact or history.

Circular Reasoning and the Napkin Religion illuminate the folly of blind faith.

So better to believe with your eyes and mind wide open than to rush headlong into faith with your eyes and mind wide shut.

[War Wagon]

You write well, Jay.

So, it comes down to faith.

That it does and I'll leave it at that for now.

[smackaholic]

Highly doubtful agnostic here. Haven't a fukking clue if there is a heaven. There is a hell though and I have spent the last 3 minutes of my life in it, reading this thread.

God, if you are out there, please kill jsc and poptah so I won't have to read another thread like this.

[Felix]

A talking snake

There was no talking snake.


Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

yes, a talking dragon is much more credible than a talking snake..... :doh:

[poptart]

The serpent (satan) is a spiritual being. Ephesians 2:2, and others.

The Scripture (Genesis 3) never says that the serpent used a voice..
Genesis 3:17 -- God said to Adam, "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife..." -- and in Genesis 3:8, Scripture says that Adam and Eve heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden.
The serpent, however, is never said to have used a voice.


2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

And this is the way satan "says" (as he did to Eve in Genesis 3:1) things to us today.
He puts ideas into your mind and urges you to do things.

[Felix]

He puts ideas into your mind and urges you to do things.

so god, who created everything could have simply eliminated this entity with a simple flip of the switch, yet this god character thought that sitting back and watching people starve to death every day (with no prospects of ever making it to his promised land because these people have never heard of jesus Christ) would be more entertaining......did somebody say he was an asshole?

if this entity does in fact exist, I'll tell him he's an asshole before he casts me into the everlasting pit of despair......

[poptart]

Felix, God had a plan of salvation prepared for His children from before the creation of the earth.


Ephesians 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


God's allows His children to hear, and they answer the call. John 10:27, John 13:18, and others.
None of His children are ever lost, and it was never in doubt that they would be.

Some never hear.
God is sovereign over all creation and He has determined a man's habitation. Acts 17:26.


So what to make of these who don't hear?
They are not God's children -- and there is no one who is good.
All men are corrupt, they love darkness, and every imagination of a man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21, John 3:19 and many others.

You're aware that 1/3 of the angels rebelled against God and went with satan, right?
There was spiritual activity in heaven before the creation of the earth, when this and other things occurred.
The Bible does not explain fully, so it's speculation on my part, but perhaps there is a reason why God allows souls to be given the earthly habitation that they have -- and why some people never hear, etc.

As of now, YOU have heard.
God has allowed that.
He allowed you to live in Idaho, to listen to Jim Rome -- and to meet poptart on this board.

:wink:

[Goober McTuber]

He allowed you to live in Idaho, to listen to Jim Rome -- and to meet poptart on this board.

So God really is an asshole.