Christians among us...

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:27 am

Yes, the model of earth that we've been assured of is -----> false.
I suspect the earth is flatish.

The waters above are not the clouds.
The waters above are above the firmament, which contains the sun, moon and stars.
The firmament is a tangible divider.
See Psalms 148:4 as well as Genesis 1:6-7.

The waters below are the oceans.

How and why is the firmament dividing the waters?

How -- it seems there is some sort of tangible thing which serves as a divider.

Why -- Scripture does not say.

How are the divided waters related to flat earth?

The firmament and divided waters are just part of God's creation.
It's part of our world.
It's the truth - so there is no reason why we should not be aware of it.
I'm just letting people know what the Scriptures say.

Jay in Phoenix · Post by **Jay in Phoenix** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:13 am

Yes, you are. You are also doing a very poor job of describing or rationalizing what you transcribe.

And so it goes.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:28 pm

poptart wrote:How and why is the firmament dividing the waters?

How -- it seems there is some sort of tangible thing which serves as a divider.

Why -- Scripture does not say.

It's called centripetal force, you stupid fuck. Yet more evidence (that you chose to ignore) of a spherical body rotating at speed.

Jay in Phoenix · Post by **Jay in Phoenix** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:29 am

mvscal wrote:
poptart wrote:How and why is the firmament dividing the waters?

How -- it seems there is some sort of tangible thing which serves as a divider.

Why -- Scripture does not say.

It's called centripetal force, you stupid fuck. Yet more evidence (that you chose to ignore) of a spherical body rotating at speed.

Again, a perfect example of physics and visual fact. The Earth and moon rotate in orbit around the sun. As do all other planets in our solar system. This is indisputable. Scripture does not say as it was written by a bunch of primitive, backward thinking simpletons. In their world, the Sun itself was a god. So was death. Are you delusional tools going to adhere to the Earth as the center of existence as the Sun and Moon rotate around it?

In spite of visual evidence of a million solar systems and a billion planets in rotation around each and every star?

IN THE WORDS OF CHARLIE BROWN...Good grief.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:42 am

mvscal wrote:It's called centripetal force

lol

Job 37:18
Ezekiel 1:22-26, Ezekiel 10:1.
Genesis 1:14-17 - sun, moon and stars IN the firmament

Keep babbling...

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:45 am

No

This concept is sometimes brought up by people -- and it's a dead give-away that they know very little about the Bible.

This was my answer the last time it was asked on this board...

To be honest with you, this is a very simple and basic concept.

Jesus came, He is the promised Christ, He finished everything (John 19:30) and He is the complete fulfillment of the Old Testament.
Christians are not bound by the OT Law and have no requirement to follow it.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

John 5:39 (Jesus speaking to the Jews)
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

There are many many other parts of Scripture which talk about this.

Again, it is a basic and simple concept.

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:57 am

So where does it say the Earth is flat and the Sun and Moon rotate around it?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:15 am

If you don't read my posts, it's not my fault.

I've posted flat earth passages and I've also posted multiple passages telling us that the earth does not move, will not move, and can not be moved.
And there are many more.

Can you find ANY passage telling us that the earth moves?

Likewise, there are dozens of passages saying the sun and/or moon was moving.
Ecclesiastes 1:5, Joshua 10:13, Isaiah 38:8, Habakkuk 3:11...

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:18 am

No, I've read your posts and they are nonsensical.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:30 am

Genesis 1 is simply talking about what God created.

There is nothing for us to follow.
We're just being told how things were made - and how things are.

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:31 am

Also, Genesis in the Bible is expressed using metaphors, similes, and figurative language.

Next.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:18 am

AP wrote:Also, Genesis in the Bible is expressed using metaphors, similes, and figurative language.

God could not have been more clear than He was in Genesis 1.
It's a straightforward account of the six days of His creation.

Nobody would ever imagine it to mean anything other than that, unless they have previously been convinced that He is wrong.

Now I've noticed, AP, that you bail out of threads when questioning gets too hot for you.
So we need to explore your position.

You think the six days must mean some extraordinary length of time.
Thousands, millions, billions of years -- I don't know what you think, because you did not answer -- and I also would have no idea what Scriptural basis you would have for deciding on this massive length of time, but... let's carry on.

Earth was created on day 1.
The sun, moon and stars on day 4.

You've got some MASSIVE period of time where the earth was alone -- with no sun or moon.
Thousands, millions, ??billions?? of years this way.
lol

So what's the deal with that?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:21 am

KC Scott wrote:
poptart wrote:Genesis 1 is simply talking about what God created.

There is nothing for us to follow.
We're just being told how things were made - and how things are.
But if you believe it you're following it, right?

You see a distinction where I do not

Scott, the Laws (such as the one you cited) were things the Jews had to follow.

Now, nobody has to follow anything other than -----> Jesus Christ.

Believing in a given shape of the earth is certainly no requirement for salvation.

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:32 am

poptart wrote:
AP wrote:Also, Genesis in the Bible is expressed using metaphors, similes, and figurative language.
God could not have been more clear than He was in Genesis 1.
It's a straightforward account of the six days of His creation.

Nobody would ever imagine it to mean anything other than that, unless they have previously been convinced that He is wrong.

Now I've noticed, AP, that you bail out of threads when questioning gets too hot for you.
So we need to explore your position.

You think the six days must mean some extraordinary length of time.
Thousands, millions, billions of years -- I don't know what you think, because you did not answer -- and I also would have no idea what Scriptural basis you would have for deciding on this massive length of time, but... let's carry on.

Earth was created on day 1.
The sun, moon and stars on day 4.

You've got some MASSIVE period of time where the earth was alone -- with no sun or moon.
Thousands, millions, ??billions?? of years this way.
lol

So what's the deal with that?

I don't bail out of threads. I get tired and bored when you are stuck on "WRONG."

What useful purpose would it be for God to explain Astrophysics to an early reader of Scriptures? He makes everything simple to explain who He is and to just have faith that all of time is just something a simple mind can relate to in relative terms.

Hermeneutics explained:

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/q ... s-as-1-day

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:37 am

What do you think the length of time is between day 1 and day 4?

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:41 am

poptart wrote:What do you think the length of time is between day 1 and day 4?

To you and me or to God? You didn't read that link did you?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:13 am

lol

The link does not answer my question.

I say there were 2 days between day 1 and day 4.
This is what Genesis says -- and it also says that in Exodus 20:11 (6 days of creation), which is found within the Ten Commandments, btw.

By our time measurements, what do you think the time between day 1 and day 4 is - and on what do you base this?

How do you have the earth sustaining itself without the sun (and moon) for the period of time you come up with?

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:22 am

poptart wrote:lol

The link does not answer my question.

I say there were 2 days between day 1 and day 4.
This is what Genesis says -- and it also says that in Exodus 20:11 (6 days of creation), which is found within the Ten Commandments, btw.

By our time measurements, what do you think the time between day 1 and day 4 is - and on what do you base this?

How do you have the earth sustaining itself without the sun (and moon) for the period of time you come up with?

The link does answer your question. Your problem is that you are intellectually dishonest and are truly an uneducated and dishonest person that has no business preaching the Bible to anybody.

If I said, "Pops, look at that dead bird!" You would look up into the sky and ask "Where?"

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:06 am

AP you throwing the intellectually dishonest charge at me has got to be the biggest face palm I have seen in a very long time.

You did not answer a simple question.
Your link does not answer the simple question.

You just want to make things up, pull things out of a hat, and say that anything could mean anything -- so that you can hang on to your belief that "science" and/or NASA has told you the real truth of things.

2 Peter 3:8 has exactly jack to do with the six days of creation.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:07 pm

poptart wrote:AP you throwing the intellectually dishonest charge at me has got to be the biggest face palm I have seen in a very long time.

poptart wrote:Keep babbling...

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:33 pm

You have brought nothing to the table.

Absolutely NOTHING.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:50 pm

poptart wrote:You have brought nothing to the table.

Absolutely NOTHING.

Oh, but you certainly have. You've brought a large pile of sanctimonious horseshit.

I still think you're trolling.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:06 pm

poptart wrote: By our time measurements, what do you think the time between day 1 and day 4 is - and on what do you base this?

48 hours which would be two complete rotations of the globe which is how every culture on the face of the earth has measured the passage of time from the dawn of time. Yet more evidence of a rotating globe that you continue to ignore in favor of allegorical folktales from bronze age goat herders.

I see you working, though.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:27 am

Gobbler wrote:I still think you're trolling.

bwaaa...

You've been trolled your whole life, Gobbler.

Someone comes in and speaks reality to you, and it's highly confusing, isn't it?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:55 am

Revelation 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Do we really think things as massive as our sun are going to fall to the earth?

Of course not.

Stars are small and are up within the firmament God made for us.
The Bible clearly tells us this.

Genesis 1:14-17
[14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Also Genesis 1:6-8

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:17 pm

poptart wrote:
Gobbler wrote:I still think you're trolling.
Someone comes in and speaks reality to you

That someone certainly wouldn't be you, loonytart.

Jay in Phoenix · Post by **Jay in Phoenix** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:25 am

Here is a question of Christian logic for poptart.

Who was Gadreel? Why does his presence contradict Azazel in the book of Enoch?

There is a specific act which Gadreel was said to have committed unto God and Heaven.

Azazel is then credited for the same act.

While he was a cool X-Men character, this is a HUGE contradiction.

Care to explain you literal goof?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:49 am

I've only read parts of the Book of Enoch.

I don't have an answer.

Moby Dick · Post by **Moby Dick** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:03 am

Galatians chapter 4 verse 24 ?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:08 am

What about it?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:31 am

Deuteronomy 4:15-20
15] Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
[16] Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
[17] The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
[18] The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
[19] And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
[20] But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

The placement of the sun as the center, with earth orbiting it, has it's origin in idol worship.
Sun worship.

Ezekiel 8:14-18
[14] Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
[15] Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
[16] And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
[17] Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.
[18] Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

The earth does not move.
It is what God has ordained.
1 Samuel 2:8

Roger_the_Shrubber · Post by **Roger_the_Shrubber** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:05 am

^ Racketh thee!

Pop, shaddup!

I am one of 'those' Christians, and you Sir, are apparently not. Stop the trolling. I know it's gets boring in here, but enough idiocy already. Again, get a a hobby, like.........anything that does NOT involve the internet. Knitting? Bird watching? Maybe translate The Book of Revelation into Esperanto, or pig latin. Don't place yourself in the same as category of Screwy or Perk or Mgo. Maybe make your own printing press a la Gutenberg and print and call your book The Bible According to 21st century Trolls....:patron Saint...MCET. I think that in that book, Jesus doesn't get crucified, just forced to become a Big 10 fan, or has the designated hitter as the 11th commandment.

The horror! The horror!

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:29 pm

Jay in Phoenix wrote:Here is a question of Christian logic for poptart.

Who was Gadreel? Why does his presence contradict Azazel in the book of Enoch?

There is a specific act which Gadreel was said to have committed unto God and Heaven.

Azazel is then credited for the same act.

While he was a cool X-Men character, this is a HUGE contradiction.

Care to explain you literal goof?

Enoch? That's not even part of the Bible.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:49 pm

Ever since this topic began, it's been one flub after the next for Jay.

No need to belabor the point, Goober.

Jay in Phoenix · Post by **Jay in Phoenix** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:50 pm

Goober McTuber wrote:
Jay in Phoenix wrote:Here is a question of Christian logic for poptart.

Who was Gadreel? Why does his presence contradict Azazel in the book of Enoch?

There is a specific act which Gadreel was said to have committed unto God and Heaven.

Azazel is then credited for the same act.

While he was a cool X-Men character, this is a HUGE contradiction.

Care to explain you literal goof?
Enoch? That's not even part of the Bible.

Where did I say it was Goober?

It was a question specifically asked to see how far poptart's theology logic is developed.

He answered honestly, he didn't know. So be it.

Since you have butted in here mister expert, what is your answer to the question?

On a side note, it is amusing to see poptart call you Gobbler a few posts up, then suddenly switch and come to your defense. His "logic" and "knowledge" are just as twisted as his loyalties.

Again, so it goes.

Jay in Phoenix · Post by **Jay in Phoenix** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:53 pm

poptart wrote:Ever since this topic began, it's been one flub after the next for Jay.

No need to belabor the point, Goober.

lol!!!

As you have "flubbed" every single post since your initial foray into idiocy began pops, in the words of a patron saint of yours...

Too funny.

Moby Dick · Post by **Moby Dick** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:19 am

poptart wrote:What about it?

isnt there something in there about Allegory?

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:35 am

Moby Dick wrote:
poptart wrote:What about it?

isnt there something in there about Allegory?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:50 am

Moby Dick wrote:
poptart wrote:What about it?

isnt there something in there about Allegory?

Okay, yes.

Paul said he was using the birth of Abraham's two sons as allegory, to make a bigger point about God's Covenant -- and how we as humans relate to this.

Since you brought it up, Paul tells us directly here that he is speaking in allegory.
And that is how it is in most of the Bible.
When allegory is being used, it is normally quite evident that it is.

Genesis 1 is most definitely not being presented as allegory at all.
It is a straightforward account of God's creation.

For disbelievers in the literal 6 days of creation, just assume for a moment that God did in fact create everything in 6 literal days.

If He did, how would He tell us that He did?

Just as Genesis 1 does, right?

Right.

Moby Dick · Post by **Moby Dick** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:58 pm

poptart wrote:
Moby Dick wrote:
poptart wrote:What about it?

isnt there something in there about Allegory?
Okay, yes.

Paul said he was using the birth of Abraham's two sons as allegory, to make a bigger point about God's Covenant -- and how we as humans relate to this.

Since you brought it up, Paul tells us directly here that he is speaking in allegory.
And that is how it is in most of the Bible.
When allegory is being used, it is normally quite evident that it is.

Genesis 1 is most definitely not being presented as allegory at all.
It is a straightforward account of God's creation.

For disbelievers in the literal 6 days of creation, just assume for a moment that God did in fact create everything in 6 literal days.

If He did, how would He tell us that He did?

Just as Genesis 1 does, right?

Right.

I would agree. Altho isnt he saying that Isaac is allegory then? which would then make Jacob allegory? etc etc?