Pat Tillman

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:10 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
The government lying as a matter of routine policy isn't a HUGE red flag, or anything.

Oh, it is gigantic. Heads should fucking ROLL!!!!

Unless they lied while under oath...

shut up, Ucant :wink:

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:11 pm

PSUFAN wrote:
The media doesn't give a shit about THE TRUTH.
Nor do Tillman's parents. Actually, apparently they do. Wouldn't you? You see nothing wrong with lying to them about the manner of his death?

I'd imagine no amount of truth or lies, would ease the pain of losing one's child.

The truth is, some soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines, see things such as duty, honor, courage, "glory", and testing their mettle as higher than: Their lives, their parents desires, their wives desires, their children. Pat Tillman appeared to be such a soldier. Considering all he left behind in order to pursue service in the military.

If the truth was, he was found dead, cowering in foxhole, had shit his drawers, face was half torn off and his "last words" weren't words at all but consisted of ten minutes of painful gurgling.

Should we tell the truth ?

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:12 pm

But remember, if the media reports any of the mistruths the government tells, it's the media's fault for lying.

Bush Administration on:

Abu Graib: "well, what do you expect? we're at war."

Quran flushing: "Newsweek is sullying America's image".

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:12 pm

2) If the media reports what isn't true, it's because it's not their job to report what's true, and if they investigate to uncover the truth, it's evidence that they're just a bunch of anti-American liberals.

Bong hit says what?

It's not the job of a journalists to determine what is true. Inevitable their perspective of what is "true" will be colored by their personal values and principles. Their job is to report the event, period. Leave the editorializing to the opinion page. If they want to do investigative journalism, then fine, however, check your politics at the door.

Some of you fools actually believe that the "facts" are the same as the "truth." Not so.

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:15 pm

I see, despite being educated on the issue, that Fester still continues to mischaracterize the Starr investigation:

You forgot the part about when the Pres is getting a blow job from a groupie it's worth $50 million to "get to the bottom of it."

At least point the finger in the appropriate direction, dolt. Remember that it was Clinton's own AG that approved and authorized the initial investigation and all subsequent requests to expand that investigation.

You know, all the "He LIED under oath" bullshit that makes the vein in Dr. Detroit's forehead start to pulsate.

For someone interested in the truth you sure seem eager to give Clinton as pass for lying under oath and not only that but wagging his finger at us shaming us for even believing that he would commit adultery...

:roll:

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:16 pm

If the truth was, he was found dead, cowering in foxhole, had shit his drawers, face was half torn off and his "last words" weren't words at all but consisted of ten minutes of painful gurgling.

Should we tell the truth ?

Tom - real slow this time: They lied and said he was killed by enemy fire. That wasn't true, and Tillman's parents had to spur an investigation to get them to admit it.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:17 pm

DrDetroit wrote: Some of you fools actually believe that the "facts" are the same as the "truth." Not so.

Um, this should be interesting.

IVO?

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:17 pm

PSUFAN wrote:
But remember, if the media reports any of the mistruths the government tells, it's the media's fault for lying.
Bush Administration on:

Abu Graib: "well, what do you expect? we're at war."

Quran flushing: "Newsweek is sullying America's image".

That was the administration's answer to Abu Ghraib???

Lie, much?

Why is it that you're compelled to completely mischaracterize the administration's responses to that event, PSU?

1tnacU · Post by **1tnacU** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:18 pm

Tom In VA wrote:had shit his drawers...

Y'all are posting waaayyyyyyyyyy too fast for me. When did this thread become about Shrub?

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:19 pm

rozy wrote:
DrDetroit wrote: Some of you fools actually believe that the "facts" are the same as the "truth." Not so.
Um, this should be interesting.

IVO?

Not really...

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:19 pm

Humor me then...

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:20 pm

mvscal wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:Tillman's parents had to spur an investigation to get them to admit it.
Straight up bullshit. His parents didn't spur a fucking thing.

And hence the argument that the administration or the Army "lied" or "lied for political gain" is simply untrue.

BTW, did PSU ever identify: who "they" were seeking political gain; and what that "political gain" was?

RadioFan · Post by **RadioFan** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:25 pm

DrDetroit wrote:It's not the job of a journalists to determine what is true. Inevitable their perspective of what is "true" will be colored by their personal values and principles. Their job is to report the event, period. Leave the editorializing to the opinion page. If they want to do investigative journalism, then fine, however, check your politics at the door.

Some of you fools actually believe that the "facts" are the same as the "truth." Not so.

Where is story editorializing? The Tillman family spoke out, the Post reported it and also got the government's response.

The story is being interpreted to mean different things by different folks. Not the same as "editorializing."

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:26 pm

rozy wrote:Humor me then...

"Facts" are everywhere. Whether those "facts" are completely presented or even relevant determine whether the "Truth" being claimed to be derived from those "facts" is accurate.

Fact: There are numerous allegations of prisoners being beaten at Gitmo.
Fact: US soldiers harassed and humiliated prisoners at Abu Ghraib.
Fact: The Bush administration does not believe prisoners detained at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib are eligible for protection under the Geneva Convention.
Claimed Truth: The Bush administration policy is to torture prisoners detained at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.

So you see... :roll:

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:27 pm

RadioFan wrote:
DrDetroit wrote:It's not the job of a journalists to determine what is true. Inevitable their perspective of what is "true" will be colored by their personal values and principles. Their job is to report the event, period. Leave the editorializing to the opinion page. If they want to do investigative journalism, then fine, however, check your politics at the door.

Some of you fools actually believe that the "facts" are the same as the "truth." Not so.
Where is story editorializing? The Tillman family spoke out, the Post reported it and also got the government's response.

The story is being interpreted to mean different things by different folks. Not the same as "editorializing."

Calm down, dummy. I didn't say that this story re: Tillman's death was editorializing. What you quoted is a carryover from a different discussion that was referenced by others in this thread.

Grab a bag...

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:29 pm

DrDetroit wrote:
rozy wrote:Humor me then...
"Facts" are everywhere. Whether those "facts" are completely presented or even relevant determine whether the "Truth" being claimed to be derived from those "facts" is accurate.

Fact: There are numerous allegations of prisoners being beaten at Gitmo.
Fact: US soldiers harassed and humiliated prisoners at Abu Ghraib.
Fact: The Bush administration does not believe prisoners detained at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib are eligible for protection under the Geneva Convention.
Claimed Truth: The Bush administration policy is to torture prisoners detained at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.

So you see... :roll:

Yeah, I see...

RadioFan · Post by **RadioFan** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:33 pm

DrDetroit wrote:Calm down, dummy. I didn't say that this story re: Tillman's death was editorializing. What you quoted is a carryover from a different discussion that was referenced by others in this thread.

Grab a bag...

No, I was referring to the link that I posted in this thread, which as been quoted in same thread.

But don't backpeddle on my account.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:33 pm

The investigation conducted by Brig. Gen. Gary M. Jones was requested by the Tillman parents and John McCain. It was indeed "spurred" by them.

As for political gain,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 865_2.html

That their son was famous opened up the situation to problems, the Tillmans say, in part because of the devastating public relations loss his death represented for the military. Mary Tillman says the government used her son for weeks after his death, perpetuating an untrue story to capitalize on his altruism -- just as the Abu Ghraib prison scandal was erupting publicly. She said she was particularly offended when President Bush offered a taped memorial message to Tillman at a Cardinals football game shortly before the presidential election last fall. She again felt as though her son was being used, something he never would have wanted.

"Every day is sort of emotional," Mary Tillman said. "It just keeps slapping me in the face. To find that he was killed in this debacle -- everything that could have gone wrong did -- it's so much harder to take. We should not have been subjected to all of this. This lie was to cover their image. I think there's a lot more yet that we don't even know, or they wouldn't still be covering their tails.

"If this is what happens when someone high profile dies, I can only imagine what happens with everyone else."

Anyway,

http://www.pattillmanfoundation.net/

RadioFan · Post by **RadioFan** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:36 pm

mvscal wrote:
RadioFan wrote:Where is story editorializing?
The fact that this is a story at all.

Bullshit.

The family of a relatively high-profile public figure speaking out is news. Whether the family is justified or not, or whether you or anyone else doesn't like what they are saying is a different issue.

1tnacU · Post by **1tnacU** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:37 pm

1tnacU wrote:
Tom In VA wrote:had shit his drawers...
Y'all are posting waaayyyyyyyyyy too fast for me. When did this thread become about Shrub?

Since no one else seems inclined... I'm just gonna have to go ahead and RACK myself for that one.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:39 pm

1tnacU wrote:
1tnacU wrote:
Tom In VA wrote:had shit his drawers...
Y'all are posting waaayyyyyyyyyy too fast for me. When did this thread become about Shrub?

Since no one else seems inclined... I'm just gonna have to go ahead and RACK myself for that one.

Don't let the facts get in the way of your claimed truth!!!

yes, I laughed

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:41 pm

Shrubber pooping himself resets are commonplace. Go the extra mile...wytch him onto a Catherine Wheel, spinning with runny ass, pecked to death by savage owls, with phone bill collectors screaming in bloody glee, and you have something. Paste in something Biggie clacked out 4.39 years ago, and even Cuda's on board.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:44 pm

Tom,

Thanks for the sig.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:45 pm

PSUFAN wrote:
If the truth was, he was found dead, cowering in foxhole, had shit his drawers, face was half torn off and his "last words" weren't words at all but consisted of ten minutes of painful gurgling.

Should we tell the truth ?
Tom - real slow this time: They lied and said he was killed by enemy fire. That wasn't true, and Tillman's parents had to spur an investigation to get them to admit it.

So he didn't die while performing his duty ?

He wasn't shot in a firefight ?

Now, if what you're saying is true. That the parents were told "He was killed by enemy fire". They must have been told that BEFORE the investigation.

Since THEY initiated the investigation, and there was no investigatin' goin' on at the time they were told "He was killed by enemy fire", don't you think it plausible that the investigation itself revealed the fact he was killed by friendly fire ?

Army to Tillmans: "Your son was killed by enemy fire".

Papa Tillman: "Bullshit, I don't believe you. I want an investigation"

Army to Tillmans: "The investigation resulted in evidence showing your son was killed by his own men".

Papa Tillman: "Liars".

I mean if the Army knew all along, he was killed by Friendly Fire, then what's the point in an investigation. If they knew, then they lied. If they didn't find out until after a closer look and an investigation, then they didn't lie.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:47 pm

Well, perhaps you're sufficiently interested now to read the article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 865_2.html

1tnacU · Post by **1tnacU** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:50 pm

PSUFAN wrote:Sue Bird.

PSUFAN Later That Day wrote:4.39 years ago

That was funny... in a Dr Detroit regurgitation kinda way. RACK my double entendrebodedefelicenous!!

Don't mind me... I'm just here to amuse myself.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:50 pm

Tom In VA wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:
If the truth was, he was found dead, cowering in foxhole, had shit his drawers, face was half torn off and his "last words" weren't words at all but consisted of ten minutes of painful gurgling.

Should we tell the truth ?
Tom - real slow this time: They lied and said he was killed by enemy fire. That wasn't true, and Tillman's parents had to spur an investigation to get them to admit it.
So he didn't die while performing his duty ?

He wasn't shot in a firefight ?

Now, if what you're saying is true. That the parents were told "He was killed by enemy fire". They must have been told that BEFORE the investigation.

Since THEY initiated the investigation, and there was no investigatin' goin' on at the time they were told "He was killed by enemy fire", don't you think it plausible that the investigation itself revealed the fact he was killed by friendly fire ?

Army to Tillmans: "Your son was killed by enemy fire".

Papa Tillman: "Bullshit, I don't believe you. I want an investigation"

Army to Tillmans: "The investigation resulted in evidence showing your son was killed by his own men".

Papa Tillman: "Liars".

I mean if the Army knew all along, he was killed by Friendly Fire, then what's the point in an investigation. If they knew, then they lied. If they didn't find out until after a closer look and an investigation, then they didn't lie.

COMMON SENSE OVERLOAD!!!
TOO CONFUSING!!
MUST DELETE! DELETE! DELETE!

rack tom

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:52 pm

don't you think it plausible that the investigation itself revealed the fact he was killed by friendly fire ?

That's not plausible, because it's not true. The Army knew the truth almost right away.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:55 pm

PSUFAN wrote:Well, perhaps you're sufficiently interested now to read the article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 865_2.html

"But he wants everyone in the chain of command, from Tillman's direct supervisors to the one-star general who conducted the latest investigation, to face discipline for "dishonorable acts." He also said the soldiers who killed his son have not been adequately punished."

Here's the real truth. A grieving father wanting people to pay for the death of his child.

"So lets' ruin a bunch of other lives because I'm hurtin' inside."

Are you ready to help Mr. Tillman get the results he's looking for ?

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 6:09 pm

PSUFAN wrote:The investigation conducted by Brig. Gen. Gary M. Jones was requested by the Tillman parents and John McCain. It was indeed "spurred" by them.

As for political gain,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 865_2.html

That their son was famous opened up the situation to problems, the Tillmans say, in part because of the devastating public relations loss his death represented for the military. Mary Tillman says the government used her son for weeks after his death, perpetuating an untrue story to capitalize on his altruism -- just as the Abu Ghraib prison scandal was erupting publicly. She said she was particularly offended when President Bush offered a taped memorial message to Tillman at a Cardinals football game shortly before the presidential election last fall. She again felt as though her son was being used, something he never would have wanted.

"Every day is sort of emotional," Mary Tillman said. "It just keeps slapping me in the face. To find that he was killed in this debacle -- everything that could have gone wrong did -- it's so much harder to take. We should not have been subjected to all of this. This lie was to cover their image. I think there's a lot more yet that we don't even know, or they wouldn't still be covering their tails.

"If this is what happens when someone high profile dies, I can only imagine what happens with everyone else."
Anyway,

http://www.pattillmanfoundation.net/

I see, the Army lied for political gain (as yet to be identified) because Mary Tillman says so...okay.

Lizard King · Post by **Lizard King** » Thu May 26, 2005 8:28 pm

Real bad showing for the Republican apologists in this thread. The Army lied and used Pat Tillman in an effort to give the public a feel-good story in an increasingly unpopular war. Anyone who sees it differently is too blinded by their political dogma to form an opinion.

Oh, and mvscal, how do you type with rozy constantly nibbling at your cock?

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu May 26, 2005 8:57 pm

Possible...

Tillman dies
Army lies about it for all of the following reasons:
- poster boy propaganda
- save the family some grief about how he suffered and died
- ignite more patriotism across the nation
Army investigates events of Tillman’s death
Tillman family gets money deal with CBS for “The Pat Tillman Story”
Army concludes and publishes that Tillman died from friendly fire

One year goes by…

CBS retracts money for “The Pat Tillman Story”
Tillman family claims outrage about original story told

Yep, sounds good to me.

Lizard King · Post by **Lizard King** » Thu May 26, 2005 9:05 pm

mvscal wrote:
Lizard King wrote:The Army lied and used Pat Tillman in an effort to give the public a feel-good story
What's wrong with that? Why should this war be different than any other war?

I guess I'm disillusioned by the fact that we're not the good guys that I thought we were. The only difference between us and them is that we get to democratically elect the people we want to lie to us.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu May 26, 2005 9:08 pm

Lizard King wrote:The only difference between us and them is that over there, I would be put to death for most of the things I've said here.

FTFY.

This is a great country. Anyone who says they think they should know every fact and detail the national government knows couldn't handle it.

Lizard King · Post by **Lizard King** » Thu May 26, 2005 9:14 pm

mvscal wrote:
Lizard King wrote:I guess I'm disillusioned by the fact that we're not the good guys that I thought we were. The only difference between us and them is that we get to democratically elect the people we want to lie to us.
I would suggest you take a closer at the scum we're fighting before you get too disillusioned.

Trust me, if every last Muslim fell over and died I wouldn't shed a tear. I was talking in a more generic sense. Government is a necessary evil(and evil is the appropriate word), but I'd rather be here than anywhere else.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 9:27 pm

Lizard King wrote: Oh, and mvscal, how do you type with rozy constantly nibbling at your cock?

mvscal and I were at each other's throats long before you pledged allegiance to the Gimp in the Box.

Please choke on a toenail BEFORE you make it to my ankles, btw. TIA.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 10:07 pm

mvscal wrote:
Lizard King wrote:The Army lied and used Pat Tillman in an effort to give the public a feel-good story
What's wrong with that? Why should this war be different than any other war?

I see - a "left-handed" nod to the point that was being made.

It's troublesome to me that Pat Tillman and others, in aparently pure expressions of patriotism, must operate at the whims of the policymakers that inhabit the Bush administration. You see, there is an actual distinction - a real, immutable distinction - that exists between "patriotism" and the wishes of the policymakers that inhabit the Bush administration. The two entities are not one and the same, and the difference is small, in your view, but I find it to be larger.

A patriot acts on conscience.

Gunslinger · Post by **Gunslinger** » Fri May 27, 2005 1:06 am

mvscal wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:I suppose when your son is killed in service, that you'll be OK when they lie to you about the manner of his death until they can wring a good TV moment out of it.
He was killed in the line of duty. That's all you or anyone else who wasn't there needs to know.

If your son was gutshot, had his legs blown off and screamed in agony for the hour and a half it took him to die, how comforted would you be by "the truth"? Or would be better to hear that it was quick and he didn't suffer?

Save your bullshit answer.

Who you calling a sheep?
That would be you. You're the idiot being manipulated by old news here.

Did anyone read the Manchurian Candidate? See, this guy goes and tells families about their son dying and he lies to them. One guy gets killed taking a shit and the Manchurian Candidate tells them he died trying to save a buddy.

In any case.

Tillman is a hero no matter how he died. Jessica Lynch was fucking disgusting on how her story was "wrote" while men and minorities were being tortured and ignored. To this day Lynch gets publicity while those men and minorities that were tortured are forgotten about.

Just like the goverment planned on the investigation of his death to be on page 2 and forgotten about. Everyone will remember how warm and fuzzy they were when they celebrated his honor and that's what our government is doing, because if the media covered the news like they did in Vietnam, somebody might not feel so warm and fuzzy and complain.

This wasn't a reply to mvscal, but a statement to those participating in this thread. mvscal is a dipshit and responding to him and Detroit makes you a dipshit.

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Fri May 27, 2005 12:45 pm

Damn, I see PSU working Hard to blame Bush for Mary Tillman's accusation that the Army lied for political gain... :roll:

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Fri May 27, 2005 12:50 pm

Just like the goverment planned on the investigation of his death to be on page 2 and forgotten about.

Exactly who is the "government" that you're referring to? You really don't have a point, do you? Just lay blame for something upon this nafarious "government" that you fail to even attempt to identify. Dumbshit.

Everyone will remember how warm and fuzzy they were when they celebrated his honor and that's what our government is doing

There's that "government," again? Our "government" is remembering how warm and fuzzy "they" were??

Do you even try to make sense?

because if the media covered the news like they did in Vietnam, somebody might not feel so warm and fuzzy and complain.

If the media covered the news as they did in Vietnam our troops would be back home already and terrorists would control to nation-states. No thanks, ass.

Rather absurd that you'd call others "dipshit" given your musings in this thread, 'tard.