The Great Black Hope

[ML@Coyote]

People are going to need to decide if they really want to stop illegal immigration or not.

They did.

They voted Trump IN.


Sure, there are many self-serving hypocrites that employ illegals.

That will not change.

You don't seem to get it. If the number of "self-serving hypocrites who employ illegals" does not change, the problem will never be solved. A wall can be easily tunneled under. Voting Trump into office isn't a mandate for this country to change its ways. It's simply a knee jerk reaction to a deeper problem. Now everyone can say, "Well, we built a wall. What else can we be expected to do?"

How about not hiring illegals in the first place? Put some stiff fines and penalties into place. Go straight after the pocketbooks of employers. And enforce the rules. You want to know why we're not doing this now? It's because people in this country aren't really any more serious about stopping illegal immigration than they were about prohibition.

It's just a lot of lip service and a vote for Trump and his dumb idea.

[Softball Bat]

People who intend to keep hiring illegals voted for Trump?
lol




And I'm the one who isn't making sense?

[ML@Coyote]

Yes, many people who voted for Trump employ illegals. Count on it.

What do they care if Trump builds a wall? The illegals will still come, and there will be jobs for them. If Trump had campaigned on a promise to enforce strict financial penalties on employers who hire illegals, the story might be different.

[smackaholic]

ML,

My guess is that there are contractors, especially in Cali who wish the hell there wasn't illegal immigration, but so long as there is, there will be a supply of cheap and sometimes very good illegal labor. They have businesses to run. They can stick to their principles and not hire them and go out of business or they can hire them and stay in business.

You are correct in that walls can be beat sometimes, but wtf do you do? Throw up your hands and let them all in?

The solution has multiple parts.

1th, we need to say, if you are caught here and you are illegal, you get a one way ticket home, right fukking now. And take your goddamn kids with you.

c. All welfare to illegals stops, now

IVrd, Increase the number of seasonal work permits where it makes sense. Put a tariff on wages paid through this program. Make it abundantly clear that if you are caught here illegally, you'll never get one.

5. Ammend the constitution to state that those born here to parents here as legal fulltime residents are citizens. Those born here to someone here illegally are not. Those born here to someone that is here as a temporary visitor are not.

As for walls not working, I disagree. There are ways to detect tunneling also.

[Moving Sale]

I would not say Orange Pedobear voters are dumb or desperate, I would say just dumb (as in either stupid or gullible) or racist. By definition just under half of voting age Americans are of below average intelligence. How many more are above average intelligence but gullible? How many more are just racist pigs? Whatever those numbers are, they must be above 50% of the population. 25% of the voting public picked an orange nazi. Therefore it is easy to see how ALL Drumph voters are either dumb or racist.

[ML@Coyote]

Dear Mr. Moving Sale,

Your above post being brought to my attention by a colleague this morning, I am prepared to make you an offer. Here at Tranquility Meadows we pride ourselves on our educational programs. We have an opening in our math department. It is an opening that, based the conclusions drawn in your above post, will fit your mathematical aptitude like a glove. We need someone with your number crunching "skills," someone to whom our patients can relate. The pay for this position is not high, but we will give you access to our cafeteria. We serve up mean spaghetti and meatballs meals on Wednesday nights, and our Salisbury steak and green pea dinners on Fridays are to die for!

I'm looking forward to hearing back from you.

Yours Truly,

Sigmund Jung PhD
Associate Psychologist
Tranquility Meadows

[ML@Coyote]

ML,

My guess is that there are contractors, especially in Cali who wish the hell there wasn't illegal immigration, but so long as there is, there will be a supply of cheap and sometimes very good illegal labor. They have businesses to run. They can stick to their principles and not hire them and go out of business or they can hire them and stay in business.

You are correct in that walls can be beat sometimes, but wtf do you do? Throw up your hands and let them all in?

The solution has multiple parts.

1th, we need to say, if you are caught here and you are illegal, you get a one way ticket home, right fukking now. And take your goddamn kids with you.

c. All welfare to illegals stops, now

IVrd, Increase the number of seasonal work permits where it makes sense. Put a tariff on wages paid through this program. Make it abundantly clear that if you are caught here illegally, you'll never get one.

5. Ammend the constitution to state that those born here to parents here as legal fulltime residents are citizens. Those born here to someone here illegally are not. Those born here to someone that is here as a temporary visitor are not.

As for walls not working, I disagree. There are ways to detect tunneling also.

Can't say I disagree with much of what you've said. But I just don't think Americans really have their heart into controlling immigration. It's just the impression I get from their behavior, which is maybe skewed because I live in California where illegals have become so accepted.

It would be fun to see legal citizens (especially young people) actually doing the work many illegals are now doing. I can just see them wiping their brow and saying, "Christ, where's a good Mexican when you need one. This work is bullshit!"

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

By definition just under half of voting age Americans are of below average intelligence.

Keep doing that.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Automation is the real threat to our future economy, not beaners working for less. Trump and his supporters are obsessed with what will soon be antiquated issues.

[Moving Sale]

Nice white flag ML@stupid.

[ML@Coyote]

Hi MGO,

Automation paranoia has been going on since the start of the Industrial Revolution. Somehow we have survived every wave of it and kept a high standard of living. I think the greater threat to our future economy is our reliance upon foreign companies to manufacture our goods. They treat their employees like dogs and pay them next to nothing. They don't care about the environment, not like we do. How do we compete with this worldwide, let alone at home? The last time I went to a Walmart, nearly every piece of shit item they had on their shelves was made in China. Just like we want cheap illegal labor, we also want cheap prices for the goods we buy. We fly the American flag on holidays, and the very next day will fill our shopping carts with crap made overseas. I'm by no means an economist, but this seems like a bigger problem to me than automation (which is nothing new).

BTW I still remember our smackoff round years ago. I won the round, but I staggered away crippled and bleeding. I think Jay won that year, and he deserved it.
Good to see you're still around. :wink:

[ML@Coyote]

Nice white flag ML@stupid.

Try really, really hard and see if you can come up with something new. You're an attorney, right? Aren't you guys supposed to be reasonably clever. It's sad watching you drool all over yourself.

[Moving Sale]

Oh I see. It's MY fault you didn't respond to my post but instead just babbled on about me. You really are a POS.

[smackaholic]

Hi MGO,

Automation paranoia has been going on since the start of the Industrial Revolution. Somehow we have survived every wave of it and kept a high standard of living. I think the greater threat to our future economy is our reliance upon foreign companies to manufacture our goods. They treat their employees like dogs and pay them next to nothing. They don't care about the environment, not like we do. How do we compete with this worldwide, let alone at home? The last time I went to a Walmart, nearly every piece of shit item they had on their shelves was made in China. Just like we want cheap illegal labor, we also want cheap prices for the goods we buy. We fly the American flag on holidays, and the very next day will fill our shopping carts with crap made overseas. I'm by no means an economist, but this seems like a bigger problem to me than automation (which is nothing new).

BTW I still remember our smackoff round years ago. I won the round, but I staggered away crippled and bleeding. I think Jay won that year, and he deserved it.
Good to see you're still around. :wink:

Rack.

Automation is a problem, for those that think their ability to mutter the phrase "would you like to super size that" is worth a "livable wage". People with actual skills will do OK.

ML is right. We have become addicted to cheap garbage. I will admit I am as guilty as the next shmuck.

So, what can we do? Not sure we'll ever get the cheap textile/garment market back, but there are some areas we could bring jobs back. But to do this, we need to get a hand on regulations. We can't beat them on labor costs, but we can exploit other advantages such as not having to ship shit all the way around the world or deal with rampant corruption that is part of the cost of doing business in some places. Also, we don't have to match them on price, but we should be in the ballpark. I do try to buy American when I can and I will pay a bit of a premium, but not a ridiculous one.

Libs seem to want to just dismiss the idea of actually fighting to bring some of that stuff back. They say we are a "service economy" now. That is pure bullshit. Service is part of an economy, but, you still need a manufacturing base. Service doesn't produce wealth, it just shuffles it around. Farming, mining and manufacturing produce wealth.

[Derron]

It would be fun to see legal citizens (especially young people) actually doing the work many illegals are now doing. I can just see them wiping their brow and saying, "Christ, where's a good Mexican when you need one. This work is bullshit!"

This country is going to see some very substantial changes in the workforce in the coming years. Millennials are becoming more of a factor and they won't do that kind of work. Second or third generation spawn of the illegals, now legal won't do that kind of work, hence you will always have this continual inflow of the illegal lower level workers to provide those niche workers.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Automation is a problem, for those that think their ability to mutter the phrase "would you like to super size that" is worth a "livable wage". People with actual skills will do OK.

You're over valuing your "skills" and the skills of many others. Very few skills can't be replaced.

That said, I get that you don't think beyond your own self interest, but some people are interested in the strength of the economy as a whole, and the widespread elimination of service jobs will have a dire effect.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

You keep taxing and taxing companies, they will automate more & more.

Automation will happen regardless. The cotton gin replaced (essentially) slave labour. You can't get much lower-wage than that.

[ML@Coyote]

Hand me that shovel.

The length of the work day fell sharply between the 1880s when the typical worker labored ten hours a day six days a week and 1920 when his counterpart worked an eight hour day six days a week. By 1940 the typical work schedule was eight hours a day five days a week.

Over the last two hundred years, technological advancements have been responsible for a significant increase in wages.

I don't foresee a "dire effect" due to continued automation.

[smackaholic]

ML,

I see where you are going with this. We could just continue to shorten the work day, but the problem with that is, at 40hrs/week, we already have an awful lot of idle time. Mandate a shorter week and we become even less competitive in the global market and people will simply pick up more second jobs.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe we're all just fukked and society will collapse. Then we'll have to live as serfs under a dictator. I would like to think we can hang on to a free market system for atleast a few more decades, then, it won't matter to me anyhoo as i'll be approaching goobs age and likely dead.

[smackaholic]

Automation is a problem, for those that think their ability to mutter the phrase "would you like to super size that" is worth a "livable wage". People with actual skills will do OK.

You're over valuing your "skills" and the skills of many others. Very few skills can't be replaced.

That said, I get that you don't think beyond your own self interest, but some people are interested in the strength of the economy as a whole, and the widespread elimination of service jobs will have a dire effect.

You keep taxing and taxing companies, they will automate more & more. If not, they will go out of business, and there will be no jobs for anybody. Tell me you understand how this works?

Even obese inbred hillbillies get it, Mgo. Why can't you allegedly edumacated folks get it?

When it makes financial sense for a company to bring in the robots, they will. I work on sort of kinda complicated rather expensive gadgets. A robot could be made to do it, I guess, but it would be immensely expensive. You are correct that many skills can be replaced, but some can be replaced much more easily. A cash register jockey is right at the head of the list. In fact, replacing them, by essentially turning the resister 180 degrees is just about free. Having a living breathing person behind the register was more important when we were handling cash, but, to tell you the truth, I can't recall the last time I used cash at a McD's. So much more efficient to jam your CC in the reader. BTW, has anyone else noticed that McD's CC chip reader kicks everyone else's ass? Takes less than half the time most other's do.

[Moving Sale]

More begging the question ML? CAN you make a logically sound argument?

[ML@Coyote]

CAN you make a logically sound argument?

Okay, I'll use pictures so you can understand...


If
=
and
=
then
=

[Moving Sale]

So to re-recap: ML made a stupid statement and was called out on it. He put up one ok post trying to defend said position then when Fallacy and finally just folded up his tent and went straight 3rd grader.
The thread is still open. You can defend your position or just tard up the rest of the thread with stuff about me and stupid fallacious arguments. Up to you.

[Derron]

Well let's just bring this over from the other thread here and you can claim bode again.

Moving Sale » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:28 pm

So to recap: I ran ML in a few posts. What a fucking tard.

[ML@Coyote]

So to re-recap: ML made a stupid statement and was called out on it. He put up one ok post trying to defend said position then when Fallacy and finally just folded up his tent and went straight 3rd grader.
The thread is still open. You can defend your position or just tard up the rest of the thread with stuff about me and stupid fallacious arguments. Up to you.

You're right it is up to me. But okay, I'll play. Tell me the stupid statement I made, and tell me why it's stupid.

[Derron]

Hi MGO,

The last time I went to a Walmart, nearly every piece of shit item they had on their shelves was made in China. Just like we want cheap illegal labor, we also want cheap prices for the goods we buy. We fly the American flag on holidays, and the very next day will fill our shopping carts with crap made overseas. I'm by no means an economist, but this seems like a bigger problem to me than automation (which is nothing new).

Took the grand kids shopping for school supplies and some clothes last month. Not being a Wal Mart fan or shopper at all, and having been in one maybe two times in my life, the wife wanted to get as much for as less cash as possible. So we went to the local Wally Mart and got all the school supplies, and pretty much all the school clothes, one hell of a basket full of stuff for $ 358 and change. I did wander around and notice it was all from China and other places. And it was all pieces of shit as you said.

I was pretty impressed with how much we really got for that amount of money. I wish to hell I could buy more domestically manufactured goods, but you cannot find any since they have all conceded the market to the slants anyway.

[Moving Sale]

Start at the beginning Jr. Your first post is circulus in probando. It also has false dicot. It, and you, are a mess. I can point them out if need be, but I am kinda hoping you are not as stupid as J and that it will not be necessary.

[ML@Coyote]

Let me go through my post sentence by sentence for you:

Ninety five percent of blacks voted for Obama.

This is a fact.

Are they any better off now than they were before he held office for eight years?

This is a question. No conclusion has been made.

I don't think they are.

This is my opinion. I begin the sentence with, "I think..." Anyone here is welcome to disagree with my opinion. And I don't think anyone here is shy about disagreeing with opinions.

Did Obama let these people down? Or did they let themselves down by thinking the color of a man's skin mattered?

These are questions. You might try to call it a false dichotomy if I was drawing a conclusion. But I am simply asking questions. The reader is free to answer the questions anyway he sees fit, with a yes or a no, and I posted the questions hoping to drum up a discussion.

Lesson learned: it is the man and not the man's race that determines his character.

This is my opinion again. This board is a place where people voice their opinions and argue about them. Anyone here is free to agree or disagree with me. Do you disagree with this statement? Do you believe a man's race determines his character?

Other US presidents have done more than Obama ever did to improve opportunities for blacks in this country. And they were white upper class males, not black neighborhood organizers.

This is another opinion of mine. Feel free to argue with it. It is an opinion worth arguing.

See, now wasn't that easy? There's nothing in the above total statement that makes it "stupid." It was the opening post of a thread throwing out some facts and opinions with the intention of starting some discussion about Obama's performance as president and the success (or lack of it) he had making the lives of his supporters better. I don't remember you ever offering an opinion on any of this. All you did was post your usual insulting drivel, when you could've actually contributed something interesting to the discussion. But then what did I expect from the king of black cocks?

[Moving Sale]

The ? does not save you from it being a false dicot.
Did he do this OR did he do that?
You can deny it all you want.
You can blame it on me.
But what you can't logical argue is that is logical.
It also begs the question because it leaves the reader with the obligation to point out the false premise.
You can't argue for shit and your 3rd grade poems and claptrap suck.
Up your game cumstain.

[Moving Sale]

Let me go through my post sentence by sentence for you:

Ninety five percent of blacks voted for Obama.

This is a fact.

And just so we are clear this is not true.
First: What you meant to say is: 95% of blacks who voted in the elections voted for Obama.
Second: It was 95 the first time and 93 the second time.
Third: And even if you had gotten all that right it is still not that much higher than the standard deviation. (4 points if you use the average of 94%) Clearly this shows that there is no "Great Black Hope" involved despite you trying to appeal to bias. ( Yet another Fallacy)
So three things wrong in one sentence. That is an F.

[ML@Coyote]

It's not the question marks that keep it from being a false dichotomy. It's the form of the questions. I'm not offering two contrived choices. I'm simply asking for yes or no answers. The reader is free to either agree or disagree completely. I don't think you understand what a false dichotomy is. I understand that you're anxious to be right about something once and a while, but this isn't it. Sorry.

I'm not blaming anything on you. You just are what you are. If you weren't so belligerent, I'd probably feel pity for you. If you spent your time putting together posts that voiced an intelligent opinion instead of spewing bile, you'd spend less time on your ass. Just a friendly suggestion.

BTW an F from you is an A to me, so thanks!

[Moving Sale]

Look, those sentences together suppose that they were let down, either by Obama OR by them. You leave the reader with that false dicot or they have to point out the false premise (which I did) and this is where we are. That is on you. If you would like to pose an non fallacious question, I would be happy to answer it.

[ML@Coyote]

Okay, just for you since you're so "special," I'll rephrase the question...

Being as that the vast majority of blacks in this country voted for Obama, do you feel he let these people down during his eight years as president? Yes or no? And please explain your answer.

[Moving Sale]

Still a dicot. It assumes one or the other.
But to answer what you meant to ask, in the aggregate, I think most got what they were looking for.
What I do know is that I didn't, which is why I didn't vote for him the second time. I wanted gitmo closed. It shits all over the Bill of rights. I wanted a much lighter touch with my med marijuana clients because I think the commerce clause means what it says. He promised both but I didn't get the first and the second was slow and febel.

[ML@Coyote]

Still a dicot. It assumes one or the other.

Nope. Just because someone asks you a question, it doesn't mean it's a false dichotomy. Sometimes they may just be asking you a question. And of course you are free to answer however you please.

But to answer what you meant to ask, in the aggregate, I think most got what they were looking for.

Then I guess they weren't looking for much...in the aggregate.

What I do know is that I didn't, which is why I didn't vote for him the second time. I wanted gitmo closed. It shits all over the Bill of rights. I wanted a much lighter touch with my med marijuana clients because I think the commerce clause means what it says. He promised both but I didn't get the first and the second was slow and febel.

These are different subjects that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, but thanks for sharing.

And what the heck is a febel? Is that a law term?

I guess I should say thanks for posting an entire response without calling me stupid, or a cum stain, or vapid, or a black cock. It just goes to show what you can do when you put your mind to something.

[Moving Sale]

Yes sometimes it's yes or no question and sometimes it's not. Something as complex as Presidential performance is not usually so black and white as it were. So again you fucked up right out of the gate.
As for my assessment of blacks assesment of his performance, once again you drop and illogical argument. Hell it's not even an argument it's just a dismissal. That's not debate. It's stupidity.
And yes my assessment of Obama was not ask for but I decided to give it anyways. Glad you took it seriously and responded accordingly.
And you're welcome for not calling you names for one whole post you stupid black cock sucking trog.

[ML@Coyote]

Yes sometimes it's yes or no question and sometimes it's not.

How profound! It is or it isn't. I would never have thought of that.

Something as complex as Presidential performance is not usually so black and white as it were.

But a specific question about it is. And you were able to provide an answer, so the question was answerable.

So again you fucked up right out of the gate.

Actually, no. You fucked up by ignoring the issue and trying to nitpick my logic.

As for my assessment of blacks assesment of his performance, once again you drop and illogical argument. Hell it's not even an argument it's just a dismissal. That's not debate. It's stupidity.

I didn't make an argument or dismissal. I simply made a comment, which was all your simpleton's answer deserved.

And yes my assessment of Obama was not ask for but I decided to give it anyways. Glad you took it seriously and responded accordingly.

I didn't take it seriously, and I responded accordingly

And you're welcome for not calling you names for one whole post you stupid black cock sucking trog.

That's more like it. Your command of the English language is stunning. I'll bet you had the professors running scared in law school. And BTW, what law school did you go to? And how do they advertise for students now that printing matchbooks is no longer in vogue?

[DiT]

ML, plungering internet asshole for 20 years :)

[ML@Coyote]

Ha, ha! I'll be damned.

[Derron]

With a DiT sighting, maybe we can expect Wags to rise from the dead here soon.