Another Boeing 737 Max 8 crash

[Joe in PB]

The FBI is undoubtedly looking for their specialty, Russian bots/collusion.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[Screw_Michigan]

The FBI’s support role was described by people on condition of anonymity because of the confidential nature of the investigation.

This ^^^^^ is what is circulated as news these days. What a crock of the stuff in Goob's tap water and skull. If you take what it says as true, then it means that anonymous people in or close to the FBI are leaking confidential information to the media. That is truly sad. What if the FBI conducts a full proctal investigation on Boeing and finds jack shit (i.e., does a Mueller)? This article will then have hurt Boeing and the people who work for it and who invest in it for no good reason that I can understand. If there is a good reason for spreading that kind of crap, please tell me what it is.

Poor baby, did you have boo boo?

What if the FBI conducts a full proctal investigation on Boeing and finds jack shit (i.e., does a Mueller)?

Lol, keep telling yourself that.

[Rooster]

Found this statement from the Deputy Director of Civil Aviation in China:

The biggest worry involves possibly inaccurate signals from key flight instruments. Many pilots with less experience depend heavily on automatic systems to help them fly planes.

Just as I said. Many pilots have lost their stick and rudder skills and can only fly as if it is a video game. Thankfully here in the states we actually require hand flown landings on a regular basis. But to many of the worlds pilots can’t turn off the automation and look out the widow and just fly. See the Asians crash at SFO a few years ago.

I am not a starched wing guy and have relatively little fully coupled autopilot time, especially compared to airline pilots, but my first reaction to uncommanded inputs by the AP is to turn it off. You immediately eliminate any systems which can cause the aircraft to fly in a manner not explicitly directed, be that hydraulics, friction, SCAS or autopilot systems. Your primary objective is to gain control as quickly as possible.

However, rotor wing flying is inherently more hands-on than long distance fixed wing flying, so flying assistance systems are considered luxury items in many helicopters.

[Screw_Michigan]

Roostard, what is your preferred aircraft to fly?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Not sure what kind of software it had to fly itself, though.

D.V.D. would pour half a bottle of bourbon into the gas tank...and save the rest for himself.

[Left Seater]

God Damn you are a mess Screwy. You got so excited thinking you were going to show me, problem is you didn't even read your own article. That or you are so blinded by emotion you couldn't comprehend the article.

Hey, look at this! "Shitty maintenance. --Left Shitter"

From your linked article:

The Indonesia safety committee report said the plane had had multiple failures on previous flights and hadn’t been properly repaired.

From my post previously in this thread:

You do know that Lion Air passed on maintenance on their aircraft, right? On multiple flights before this one that crashed they passed on fixing or replacing one of the angle of attack sensors. This caused a large disconnect between the two sensors.

From your linked article:

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system

From my post previously in this thread:

On the flight before the crash, the pilots reported the issue and they kick out the automation of the stabilizer control and hand flew the plane

Also from your linked article as has already been pointed out:

The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize.

I am not even going to address your strawman about the certification of the plane. I haven't discussed that yet you have no problem making up quotes as if I have.


So please tell us. How does that article not support my takes? How does it somehow say the plane is faulty and should be grounded? Take your time. And then, give us a take on what needs to happen for the grounding order to be lifted. This should be easy since you clearly know so much about aircraft, maintenance, flying and certification, yet you have dodged this for a week.

[Rooster]

Roostard, what is your preferred aircraft to fly?

The most fun aircraft I’ve flown was the BO-105, the “Vomit Comet.” Messerschmidt-Bolkow-Bloem made them with a fully rigid rotor system and a titanium rotor head which meant it flew like a sports car and was fully aerobatic. The Red Bull flying team uses them. A close second would be the AH-1 Cobra because— to borrow a well worn cliche —firing weapons while flying is the most fun you can have with your pants on.

[Left Seater]

I don’t know how I missed this before, but the right seater in this Ethiopian crash had 200 hours in his log book. Not 200 hours on the type, 200 fucking hours of any kind of flying. Or put another way this guy had 5 work weeks worth of experience in any cockpit.

But yeah let’s blame the plane for this crash.

Good god.

[Derron]

I don’t know how I missed this before, but the right seater in this Ethiopian crash had 200 hours in his log book. Not 200 hours on the type, 200 fucking hours of any kind of flying. Or put another way this guy had 5 work weeks worth of experience in any cockpit.

But yeah let’s blame the plane for this crash.

Good god.

So he was flying a Seminole 4 months ago for his twin time, maybe a little bit in a King Air for some turbo prop, and ends up right seat in a 737 in under 200 hours ...talk about accelerated training...probably got his turbine time in the 737 too..yeah..the plane is the issue.

[Left Seater]

Hell who knows. Maybe all of the guys time has been in type. Dude may have learned on sims and was building time flying the line.

You can’t even begin in the States unless you have 1500 hours.

Dude was nothing but a radio jockey and checklist reader. But yeah blame the plane.

[Screw_Michigan]

I don’t know how I missed this before, but the right seater in this Ethiopian crash had 200 hours in his log book. Not 200 hours on the type, 200 fucking hours of any kind of flying. Or put another way this guy had 5 work weeks worth of experience in any cockpit.

Link?

Also, Ethiopian wasn't the ONLY Max 8 crash, you know.

[Screw_Michigan]

Roostard, what is your preferred aircraft to fly?

The most fun aircraft I’ve flown was the BO-105, the “Vomit Comet.” Messerschmidt-Bolkow-Bloem made them with a fully rigid rotor system and a titanium rotor head which meant it flew like a sports car and was fully aerobatic. The Red Bull flying team uses them. A close second would be the AH-1 Cobra because— to borrow a well worn cliche —firing weapons while flying is the most fun you can have with your pants on.

Ha. I have heard of the AH-1, hadn't heard of the BO-105 (sounds like a Toolio nickname).

[smackaholic]

200 hours flight time?

And he's driving a full size twin engine airliner?

Wow.

Wonder how many sim hours he had? And I don't mean on a laptop. A full size real sim which physically tilts the pilot to sort of kind of simulate actual conditions.

You are correct. These 3rd world "pilots" are radiomen and button pushing monkeys.

But yeah, better keep the plane on the ground, at least until they make the autopilot failure proof.

[Left Seater]

I don’t know how I missed this before, but the right seater in this Ethiopian crash had 200 hours in his log book. Not 200 hours on the type, 200 fucking hours of any kind of flying. Or put another way this guy had 5 work weeks worth of experience in any cockpit.

Link?

Also, Ethiopian wasn't the ONLY Max 8 crash, you know.

Is your google broken? Both WaPo and NYT have articles on this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... s.amp.html

The pilot of the Ethiopian flight was highly experienced, too — but the co-pilot was remarkably inexperienced, with just 200 hours.

It is not clear who was at the controls when the jet went down.

The article has a number of things wrong but it does include total time for the copilot.

And yes I am fully aware that Lion Air lawn darted one as well. You do know that Lion Air knee of the malfunctioning AoA sensor and still dispatched the plane with this known issue. You also know that on the previous flight a different crew had the same nose down issue and overrode the automation and landed safely.

But keep blaming the plane.

[Goober McTuber]

Flight simulations recreating the problems suspected to be responsible for the crash of a Boeing 737 Max 8 plane last year gave pilots under 40 seconds to override a malfunctioning system, according to a report in the New York Times.

Lion Air Flight 610 crashed off the coast of Indonesia last October, killing 189 people. Indonesian officials believe the failure of a sensor may have triggered an automated software system designed to prevent the plane from stalling. However, the system may have brought the plane down as pilots struggled to override it.

During the recent tests, the simulator pilots found they had mere seconds to shut down the system and prevent the plane going into a nosedive, the Times said, citing two unnamed people involved in the tests.

The system, known as MCAS, "as originally designed and explained, left little room for error," according to the report. "Those involved in the testing hadn't fully understood just how powerful the system was until they flew the plane on a 737 Max simulator," the Times reported.

At least some of the tests described by the Times took place over the weekend, the paper reported.

On Saturday, pilots and training officials from Southwest Airlines, American Airlines and United Airlines met with Boeing officials to review updated software for 737 Max planes in the Seattle area, where the model is assembled, multiple airline sources told CNN on Monday. The software updates are intended to decrease the chances of triggering the MCAS system.

The pilots ran simulated flights using the current and updated software, one of the sources told CNN, adding that each flight landed safely.

MCAS is a key focus of the investigations into the Lion Air disaster and the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 Max 8 flight on March 10 that killed all 157 people on board. Both jets crashed minutes after takeoff, and in both cases the pilots reported problems minutes into the flights.

Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of the new system, pilots' unions spokesmen for two American carriers told CNN.

During the Lion Air flight's last minutes, pilots searched in a handbook for a way to stop the plane from nosediving, according to a Reuters report.

The Trump administration grounded all Boeing 737 Max planes indefinitely three days after the Ethiopia crash, and after the rest of the world had already done the same.

In a statement Sunday, Boeing called the weekend meeting a "productive session" and said that it had invited more than 200 pilots and technicians, as well as regulators, to an informational session at the company's production facility in Renton, Washington, on Wednesday.

"This is part of our ongoing effort to share more details about our plan for supporting the safe return of the 737 MAX to commercial service," Boeing said.

In the simulations run over the weekend with the current MCAS software, the test pilots used existing procedures to disable the system, while test flights using the new software required less intervention from the pilots, a source told CNN.

The updated software designed by Boeing uses input from two sensors on the nose of the plane, instead of one, and is designed to not trigger the MCAS system repeatedly, which is believed to have pitched the Lion Air plane's nose down so sharply that the pilots' attempts to regain control were futile.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), which is part of efforts to test the new software, declined to comment. One source familiar with the tests said the FAA is expected to receive the software early this week.

The FAA is not expected to allow dozens of 737 MAX planes it grounded to fly again until it learns more about the causes of the Ethiopian Air crash, the source said.

Flight data and cockpit voice recordings are being analyzed in Ethiopia, where authorities have handed over segments of flight voice and data recordings from the aircraft's black boxes to US embassy officials in Addis Ababa, a source with knowledge of the investigation told CNN on Monday.

[Left Seater]

40 seconds is a long damn time to kick out the automation and start hand flying the bird.

And lots of contradictions about what was in the differences training. But bottom line for me and many other pilots is how did the dead heading pilot know about the override switch and the pilots flying did not?

Did Lion Air make the pilots watch the training at one of their bases? Did they allow the pilots to watch this video at home or in a hotel on the road? Were they tested over differences? Did they have any simulator time on the new model?

[Goober McTuber]

I'm assuming that the deadhead pilot had a lot more experience (not to mention excellent taste in music). But this is still troubling:

Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of the new system, pilots' unions spokesmen for two American carriers told CNN.

I've read in other stories that pilots were not made aware of the new system. How about the Southwest Max that had the engine failure yesterday?

[Left Seater]

I'm assuming that the deadhead pilot had a lot more experience (not to mention excellent taste in music). But this is still troubling:

Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of the new system, pilots' unions spokesmen for two American carriers told CNN.

I've read in other stories that pilots were not made aware of the new system. How about the Southwest Max that had the engine failure yesterday?

Again, if pilots weren’t made aware of it, how did many of them know exactly where the cut out switch is and when to use it? Further, let’s assume they were never told of the MCAS or the manual override, when they first set foot in the new bird they are all going to say what the hell is this switch for?

As for the jumpseater having more experience, do you mean overall, on 737s in general or in the 737-max 8?

Finally about the engine shut down, that is a total non event. Engines are shut down all the time and planes return to where they departed from, divert, or even continue on to their destination sometimes. The only reason you heard about it was because it was a 737. Do you know if the overheat warning was valid or if a sensor was faulty or if there was another issue?

[Derron]

I'm assuming that the deadhead pilot had a lot more experience (not to mention excellent taste in music). But this is still troubling:

Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of the new system, pilots' unions spokesmen for two American carriers told CNN.

I've read in other stories that pilots were not made aware of the new system. How about the Southwest Max that had the engine failure yesterday?

Again, if pilots weren’t made aware of it, how did many of them know exactly where the cut out switch is and when to use it? Further, let’s assume they were never told of the MCAS or the manual override, when they first set foot in the new bird they are all going to say what the hell is this switch for?

As for the jumpseater having more experience, do you mean overall, on 737s in general or in the 737-max 8?

Finally about the engine shut down, that is a total non event. Engines are shut down all the time and planes return to where they departed from, divert, or even continue on to their destination sometimes. The only reason you heard about it was because it was a 737. Do you know if the overheat warning was valid or if a sensor was faulty or if there was another issue?

None of the information you are referring to was published on CNN, so the chances of Goobles McCock reading it or having even a small clue as to what the fuck you are talking about is pretty slim.

[Screw_Michigan]

Again, if pilots weren’t made aware of it, how did many of them know exactly where the cut out switch is and when to use it? Further, let’s assume they were never told of the MCAS or the manual override, when they first set foot in the new bird they are all going to say what the hell is this switch for?

As for the jumpseater having more experience, do you mean overall, on 737s in general or in the 737-max 8?

Finally about the engine shut down, that is a total non event. Engines are shut down all the time and planes return to where they departed from, divert, or even continue on to their destination sometimes. The only reason you heard about it was because it was a 737. Do you know if the overheat warning was valid or if a sensor was faulty or if there was another issue?

You continue to spend a lot of time defending Boeing in this debacle. I wonder why that is? You said you are not financially invested in this. So what is it? Are you afraid of increased FAA regulation over the certification process? Over 300 people have died due to Max 8 crashes and Boeing still doesn't know exactly what is wrong with the aircraft ( ). Yet you continue to blame the pilots and these airlines.

I think Dennis Muilenberg would put a lot of concerns to rest if he would fly around on a Max 8. Why isn't he doing that?

[Left Seater]

Again, I have no financial relationship to Boeing. Nor do I carry a type rating on any of their models.

I also have no worries about the certification process. Since the mid 50s airplane manufacturers have handled their own certification with oversight from the government. Boeing probably has 100 times the number of engineers that the FAA has. You really expect the Feds to completely test each new advancement or part on each new airframe? Of course they can’t, hence the reason Congress set up the current process decades ago.

Now where are you getting your info that Boeing doesn’t know what is wrong with the plane? If they don’t know what is wrong, why are the rewriting code and inviting AA, UA and WN pilots out to test the new code? Why are they having line pilots fly this fix in sims and real aircraft? Why are they continuing to manufacture new airframes?

Yes there was an issue with the MCAS system and it needed to be addressed. Boeing is fixing this as they should. But updates to code happen more often than you know.

Yes people have died on this aircraft. However we also know that Lion Air passed on maintenance and dispatched the doomed aircraft with a known maintenance issue. We also know the jump seater knew exactly what the issue was on a previous flight and “fixed” it. We also know one of the Ethiopian pilots had 200 hours of total time. A complete and total joke.

As to some guy flying around on a Max 8 here, what would that prove? The Max 8 was operating an estimated 25,000 hours of safe flying here each month. Adding more time than the Ethiopian pilot had proves what exactly?

I will generally take a pilot’s side on things. But in this case the facts are showing that the pilots screwed up. Well in the case of Ethiopian the pilot was doomed to fail as he had no clue what he was doing to begin with. The FACTS in these cases are pointing to poor human decisions. Sure the MCAS system will be a contributing factor.

Now, when will we get answers to the many questions I have posed to you on the subject that you continue to ignore?

[Derron]

If they don’t know what is wrong, why are the rewriting code and inviting AA, UA and WN pilots out to test the new code? Why are they having line pilots fly this fix in sims and real aircraft? Why are they continuing to manufacture new airframes?

Two weeks ago right after they grounded the Max 8 type, Boeing had multiple test beds in the air over Eastern Oregon, one of their test areas away from airways. I saw three at one time, confirmed by FlightRadar 24. This went on for a couple days and probably still is.

[Left Seater]

Still waiting for Screwy’s take on what Boeing needs to do to get the plane back in the air.

[Screw_Michigan]

Still waiting for Screwy’s take on what Boeing needs to do to get the plane back in the air.

Figure out what exactly caused 300+ people do die on one of its aircraft model. Then fix it and be transparent with regulators and the public.

I am satisfied with the current process. You, clearly, are not.

[Left Seater]

Still waiting for Screwy’s take on what Boeing needs to do to get the plane back in the air.

Figure out what exactly caused 300+ people do die on one of its aircraft model. Then fix it and be transparent with regulators and the public.

I am satisfied with the current process. You, clearly, are not.

What if the investigations conclude pilot error, maintenance practices and substandard training are primary factors? We already know they will be at a minimum contributing factors.

[Derron]

Still waiting for Screwy’s take on what Boeing needs to do to get the plane back in the air.

Figure out what exactly caused 300+ people do die on one of its aircraft model. Then fix it and be transparent with regulators and the public.

I am satisfied with the current process. You, clearly, are not.

What if the investigations conclude pilot error, maintenance practices and substandard training are primary factors? We already know they will be at a minimum contributing factors.

" Accidents" must have at least 2 precursor events / factors or situations for the "accident" to happen. If there are 3 or more present the likely hood of the "accident" triples. If there is only one event present, the "accident" does not happen.

That was proven many times over when I spent about 10 years as a certified OSHA on the job accident investigator for 2 different companies and some contract work as well. Factors can be weighted in various different ways to get to the root cause of the "accident".

[Screw_Michigan]

What if the investigations conclude pilot error, maintenance practices and substandard training are primary factors? We already know they will be at a minimum contributing factors.

Good. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't have grounded the aircraft as a precaution.

[Left Seater]

Couldn’t disagree any more with that.

[Screw_Michigan]

Couldn’t disagree any more with that.

Yeah, we know, you've made that quite clear. Thankfully smarter heads prevailed.

[Left Seater]

Couldn’t disagree any more with that.

Yeah, we know, you've made that quite clear. Thankfully smarter heads prevailed.

So now you are calling Trump smart. Shocker.

But if you think this grounding was the correct action, why didn’t you call for the grounding of any of the previous models I mentioned? What is different with them?

[Screw_Michigan]

So now you are calling Trump smart. Shocker.

Yes, he made the right decision. Unfortunately he doesn't make many of them.

But if you think this grounding was the correct action, why didn’t you call for the grounding of any of the previous models I mentioned? What is different with them?

Did the other models crash twice in similar ways in five month? I don't know why you're so worked up over this, other than you didn't get your way. You very likely could be proven right in the end, and that is fine. The US and other nations did the right thing in grounding the aircraft and taking time to figure out what went wrong.

[Left Seater]

I am worked up because ignoring malfunctioning equipment and having a pilot who has spent less that 5 work weeks in the cockpit is how people get died.

You are just dealing in emotions. However that has been the basis for many of your posts and positions over the years so not sure why I would expect anything different from you on this.

[Screw_Michigan]

I am worked up because ignoring malfunctioning equipment and having a pilot who has spent less that 5 work weeks in the cockpit is how people get died.

You are just dealing in emotions. However that has been the basis for many of your posts and positions over the years so not sure why I would expect anything different from you on this.

I hate to pull the IKYABWAI card but it is YOU who is too emotional about this due to your closeness to the industry. The facts are two of the same aircraft models suffered fatal crashes in similar fashions within 5 months, killing over 300+ people. It is better and safer for the US flying public to ground the aircraft until dishonest Boeing and moronic FAA get to the bottom of this. Sorry it messed up your professional life. Deal with it.

[Screw_Michigan]

I was more worried about the plane in the beginning of this article. After reading Lefty’s responses, I now would agree more with him.

You see, Screwy, he’s a pilot. You’re a pro at pumping quarters at a laundromat. I’m gonna say he knows a bit more than you do about aviation.

The aircraft is still grounded. This is why we don't let those beholden to industry (*cough* Left Shitter) call the regulatory shots.

[Joe in PB]

The aircraft is still grounded. This is why we don't let those beholden to industry (*cough* Left Shitter) call the regulatory shots.

Then you must agree with the department of homeland security/border patrol that a boarder wall refresh is due.

[Screw_Michigan]

The aircraft is still grounded. This is why we don't let those beholden to industry (*cough* Left Shitter) call the regulatory shots.

Then you must agree with the department of homeland security/border patrol that a boarder wall refresh is due.

Of course I don't.

[Screw_Michigan]

How many hours do you have as a pilot?

Let me remind you of final score in the Screwball-Left Shitter Max 8 battle

Screwy 1, Left Shitter 0 - F

[Left Seater]

Poor Screwy, he can’t even understand most of the workings of aircraft, but he thinks he has bode.

I doubt he even has read the preliminary report on the Ethiopian crash. Even if he had he wouldn’t understand the multiple pilot errors the report points out and tries to downplay.

Of course he completely ignores the fact Ethiopian put someone in the cockpit with 200 total hours of flying time.

[Screw_Michigan]

Poor Screwy, he can’t even understand most of the workings of aircraft, but he thinks he has bode.

I doubt he even has read the preliminary report on the Ethiopian crash. Even if he had he wouldn’t understand the multiple pilot errors the report points out and tries to downplay.

Of course he completely ignores the fact Ethiopian put someone in the cockpit with 200 total hours of flying time.

They followed Boeing's instructions to override the aircraft. Didn't work.

I don't know why you remain in Boeing's pocket over this. Oh that's right, I do, you're beholden to the industry, just another corporatist GOPer putting profits over people.

[Goober McTuber]

How many hours do you have as a pilot?

Let me remind you of final score in the Screwball-Left Shitter Max 8 battle

Screwy 1, Left Shitter 0 - F

Again, how many hours do you have flying?

Probably not as many as you, Blimpspray.