Another Boeing 737 Max 8 crash

[Goober McTuber]

I'm assuming that the deadhead pilot had a lot more experience (not to mention excellent taste in music). But this is still troubling:

Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of the new system, pilots' unions spokesmen for two American carriers told CNN.

I've read in other stories that pilots were not made aware of the new system. How about the Southwest Max that had the engine failure yesterday?

[Left Seater]

I'm assuming that the deadhead pilot had a lot more experience (not to mention excellent taste in music). But this is still troubling:

Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of the new system, pilots' unions spokesmen for two American carriers told CNN.

I've read in other stories that pilots were not made aware of the new system. How about the Southwest Max that had the engine failure yesterday?

Again, if pilots weren’t made aware of it, how did many of them know exactly where the cut out switch is and when to use it? Further, let’s assume they were never told of the MCAS or the manual override, when they first set foot in the new bird they are all going to say what the hell is this switch for?

As for the jumpseater having more experience, do you mean overall, on 737s in general or in the 737-max 8?

Finally about the engine shut down, that is a total non event. Engines are shut down all the time and planes return to where they departed from, divert, or even continue on to their destination sometimes. The only reason you heard about it was because it was a 737. Do you know if the overheat warning was valid or if a sensor was faulty or if there was another issue?

[Derron]

I'm assuming that the deadhead pilot had a lot more experience (not to mention excellent taste in music). But this is still troubling:

Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of the new system, pilots' unions spokesmen for two American carriers told CNN.

I've read in other stories that pilots were not made aware of the new system. How about the Southwest Max that had the engine failure yesterday?

Again, if pilots weren’t made aware of it, how did many of them know exactly where the cut out switch is and when to use it? Further, let’s assume they were never told of the MCAS or the manual override, when they first set foot in the new bird they are all going to say what the hell is this switch for?

As for the jumpseater having more experience, do you mean overall, on 737s in general or in the 737-max 8?

Finally about the engine shut down, that is a total non event. Engines are shut down all the time and planes return to where they departed from, divert, or even continue on to their destination sometimes. The only reason you heard about it was because it was a 737. Do you know if the overheat warning was valid or if a sensor was faulty or if there was another issue?

None of the information you are referring to was published on CNN, so the chances of Goobles McCock reading it or having even a small clue as to what the fuck you are talking about is pretty slim.

[Screw_Michigan]

Again, if pilots weren’t made aware of it, how did many of them know exactly where the cut out switch is and when to use it? Further, let’s assume they were never told of the MCAS or the manual override, when they first set foot in the new bird they are all going to say what the hell is this switch for?

As for the jumpseater having more experience, do you mean overall, on 737s in general or in the 737-max 8?

Finally about the engine shut down, that is a total non event. Engines are shut down all the time and planes return to where they departed from, divert, or even continue on to their destination sometimes. The only reason you heard about it was because it was a 737. Do you know if the overheat warning was valid or if a sensor was faulty or if there was another issue?

You continue to spend a lot of time defending Boeing in this debacle. I wonder why that is? You said you are not financially invested in this. So what is it? Are you afraid of increased FAA regulation over the certification process? Over 300 people have died due to Max 8 crashes and Boeing still doesn't know exactly what is wrong with the aircraft ( ). Yet you continue to blame the pilots and these airlines.

I think Dennis Muilenberg would put a lot of concerns to rest if he would fly around on a Max 8. Why isn't he doing that?

[Left Seater]

Again, I have no financial relationship to Boeing. Nor do I carry a type rating on any of their models.

I also have no worries about the certification process. Since the mid 50s airplane manufacturers have handled their own certification with oversight from the government. Boeing probably has 100 times the number of engineers that the FAA has. You really expect the Feds to completely test each new advancement or part on each new airframe? Of course they can’t, hence the reason Congress set up the current process decades ago.

Now where are you getting your info that Boeing doesn’t know what is wrong with the plane? If they don’t know what is wrong, why are the rewriting code and inviting AA, UA and WN pilots out to test the new code? Why are they having line pilots fly this fix in sims and real aircraft? Why are they continuing to manufacture new airframes?

Yes there was an issue with the MCAS system and it needed to be addressed. Boeing is fixing this as they should. But updates to code happen more often than you know.

Yes people have died on this aircraft. However we also know that Lion Air passed on maintenance and dispatched the doomed aircraft with a known maintenance issue. We also know the jump seater knew exactly what the issue was on a previous flight and “fixed” it. We also know one of the Ethiopian pilots had 200 hours of total time. A complete and total joke.

As to some guy flying around on a Max 8 here, what would that prove? The Max 8 was operating an estimated 25,000 hours of safe flying here each month. Adding more time than the Ethiopian pilot had proves what exactly?

I will generally take a pilot’s side on things. But in this case the facts are showing that the pilots screwed up. Well in the case of Ethiopian the pilot was doomed to fail as he had no clue what he was doing to begin with. The FACTS in these cases are pointing to poor human decisions. Sure the MCAS system will be a contributing factor.

Now, when will we get answers to the many questions I have posed to you on the subject that you continue to ignore?

[Derron]

If they don’t know what is wrong, why are the rewriting code and inviting AA, UA and WN pilots out to test the new code? Why are they having line pilots fly this fix in sims and real aircraft? Why are they continuing to manufacture new airframes?

Two weeks ago right after they grounded the Max 8 type, Boeing had multiple test beds in the air over Eastern Oregon, one of their test areas away from airways. I saw three at one time, confirmed by FlightRadar 24. This went on for a couple days and probably still is.

[Left Seater]

Still waiting for Screwy’s take on what Boeing needs to do to get the plane back in the air.

[Screw_Michigan]

Still waiting for Screwy’s take on what Boeing needs to do to get the plane back in the air.

Figure out what exactly caused 300+ people do die on one of its aircraft model. Then fix it and be transparent with regulators and the public.

I am satisfied with the current process. You, clearly, are not.

[Left Seater]

Still waiting for Screwy’s take on what Boeing needs to do to get the plane back in the air.

Figure out what exactly caused 300+ people do die on one of its aircraft model. Then fix it and be transparent with regulators and the public.

I am satisfied with the current process. You, clearly, are not.

What if the investigations conclude pilot error, maintenance practices and substandard training are primary factors? We already know they will be at a minimum contributing factors.

[Derron]

Still waiting for Screwy’s take on what Boeing needs to do to get the plane back in the air.

Figure out what exactly caused 300+ people do die on one of its aircraft model. Then fix it and be transparent with regulators and the public.

I am satisfied with the current process. You, clearly, are not.

What if the investigations conclude pilot error, maintenance practices and substandard training are primary factors? We already know they will be at a minimum contributing factors.

" Accidents" must have at least 2 precursor events / factors or situations for the "accident" to happen. If there are 3 or more present the likely hood of the "accident" triples. If there is only one event present, the "accident" does not happen.

That was proven many times over when I spent about 10 years as a certified OSHA on the job accident investigator for 2 different companies and some contract work as well. Factors can be weighted in various different ways to get to the root cause of the "accident".

[Screw_Michigan]

What if the investigations conclude pilot error, maintenance practices and substandard training are primary factors? We already know they will be at a minimum contributing factors.

Good. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't have grounded the aircraft as a precaution.

[Left Seater]

Couldn’t disagree any more with that.

[Screw_Michigan]

Couldn’t disagree any more with that.

Yeah, we know, you've made that quite clear. Thankfully smarter heads prevailed.

[Left Seater]

Couldn’t disagree any more with that.

Yeah, we know, you've made that quite clear. Thankfully smarter heads prevailed.

So now you are calling Trump smart. Shocker.

But if you think this grounding was the correct action, why didn’t you call for the grounding of any of the previous models I mentioned? What is different with them?

[Screw_Michigan]

So now you are calling Trump smart. Shocker.

Yes, he made the right decision. Unfortunately he doesn't make many of them.

But if you think this grounding was the correct action, why didn’t you call for the grounding of any of the previous models I mentioned? What is different with them?

Did the other models crash twice in similar ways in five month? I don't know why you're so worked up over this, other than you didn't get your way. You very likely could be proven right in the end, and that is fine. The US and other nations did the right thing in grounding the aircraft and taking time to figure out what went wrong.

[Left Seater]

I am worked up because ignoring malfunctioning equipment and having a pilot who has spent less that 5 work weeks in the cockpit is how people get died.

You are just dealing in emotions. However that has been the basis for many of your posts and positions over the years so not sure why I would expect anything different from you on this.

[Screw_Michigan]

I am worked up because ignoring malfunctioning equipment and having a pilot who has spent less that 5 work weeks in the cockpit is how people get died.

You are just dealing in emotions. However that has been the basis for many of your posts and positions over the years so not sure why I would expect anything different from you on this.

I hate to pull the IKYABWAI card but it is YOU who is too emotional about this due to your closeness to the industry. The facts are two of the same aircraft models suffered fatal crashes in similar fashions within 5 months, killing over 300+ people. It is better and safer for the US flying public to ground the aircraft until dishonest Boeing and moronic FAA get to the bottom of this. Sorry it messed up your professional life. Deal with it.

[Screw_Michigan]

I was more worried about the plane in the beginning of this article. After reading Lefty’s responses, I now would agree more with him.

You see, Screwy, he’s a pilot. You’re a pro at pumping quarters at a laundromat. I’m gonna say he knows a bit more than you do about aviation.

The aircraft is still grounded. This is why we don't let those beholden to industry (*cough* Left Shitter) call the regulatory shots.

[Joe in PB]

The aircraft is still grounded. This is why we don't let those beholden to industry (*cough* Left Shitter) call the regulatory shots.

Then you must agree with the department of homeland security/border patrol that a boarder wall refresh is due.

[Screw_Michigan]

The aircraft is still grounded. This is why we don't let those beholden to industry (*cough* Left Shitter) call the regulatory shots.

Then you must agree with the department of homeland security/border patrol that a boarder wall refresh is due.

Of course I don't.

[Screw_Michigan]

How many hours do you have as a pilot?

Let me remind you of final score in the Screwball-Left Shitter Max 8 battle

Screwy 1, Left Shitter 0 - F

[Left Seater]

Poor Screwy, he can’t even understand most of the workings of aircraft, but he thinks he has bode.

I doubt he even has read the preliminary report on the Ethiopian crash. Even if he had he wouldn’t understand the multiple pilot errors the report points out and tries to downplay.

Of course he completely ignores the fact Ethiopian put someone in the cockpit with 200 total hours of flying time.

[Screw_Michigan]

Poor Screwy, he can’t even understand most of the workings of aircraft, but he thinks he has bode.

I doubt he even has read the preliminary report on the Ethiopian crash. Even if he had he wouldn’t understand the multiple pilot errors the report points out and tries to downplay.

Of course he completely ignores the fact Ethiopian put someone in the cockpit with 200 total hours of flying time.

They followed Boeing's instructions to override the aircraft. Didn't work.

I don't know why you remain in Boeing's pocket over this. Oh that's right, I do, you're beholden to the industry, just another corporatist GOPer putting profits over people.

[Goober McTuber]

How many hours do you have as a pilot?

Let me remind you of final score in the Screwball-Left Shitter Max 8 battle

Screwy 1, Left Shitter 0 - F

Again, how many hours do you have flying?

Probably not as many as you, Blimpspray.

[Joe in PB]

Of course I don't.

Because Democrats put themselves and their party ahead of the country. A border wall makes a lot of sense when hundreds and likely thousands cross the border illegally every day. The strategy is simple, funnel illegal border crossers to areas without a wall, and increased surveillance and manpower for apprehension.

Not securing our borders makes no sense. Why are we fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan if we're leaving the back door open?

Because our politicians no longer serve the country's citizens.

Our political system is broken and no different than the corrupt regimes in Russia and China.

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[Goober McTuber]

Relax, McJussie. You weren’t being addressed.

You, Melty, were addressed, stamped an post-marked.

[Screw_Michigan]

Because Democrats put themselves and their party ahead of the country. A border wall makes a lot of sense when hundreds and likely thousands cross the border illegally every day. The strategy is simple, funnel illegal border crossers to areas without a wall, and increased surveillance and manpower for apprehension.

Not securing our borders makes no sense. Why are we fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan if we're leaving the back door open?

Because our politicians no longer serve the country's citizens.

Our political system is broken and no different than the corrupt regimes in Russia and China.

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Only a deranged moron like you would associate aviation safety with immigration.

News flash, asshole---we don't have an immigration crisis. What we have is an asswipe chief executive bumbling his way through manufactured crisis after manufactured crisis to keep gullible supporters like you thinking that there really is a problem and that Trump has the solution. Wakey wake, dipshit.

[Joe in PB]

Didn't you state on this issue that is why we don't let those beholden to the industry call the regulatory shots?

The same can be said of border security, politics are not needed on the issue.

The country would be much better off if our politicians put what is best for the country first, constituents second, with party and themselves last. Unfortunately the opposite is true.

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[Derron]

News flash, asshole---we don't have an immigration crisis.

Yes we do you stupid cunt. As long as illegal aliens enter this country and commit violent crimes against American citizens, we have an immigration crisis. Murder, rape, drunk driving and killing people..( that one is their favorite) all committed by illegal aliens, that is a crisis. But stupid cunts like you think it is all good.

[Goober McTuber]

Relax, McJussie. You weren’t being addressed.

You, Melty, were addressed, stamped an post-marked.

Speak when spoken to. I’ll let you know when you’re important enough to achieve that status. Thus far - you are not.

Nice white flag, Melty. Just STFU and take your beatings like a man trembling little school girl.

[Screw_Michigan]

As long as illegal aliens enter this country and commit violent crimes against American citizens, we have an immigration crisis. Murder, rape, drunk driving and killing people..( that one is their favorite) all committed by illegal aliens, that is a crisis.

Statistically insignificant.

[Kierland]

Of course I don't.

Because Democrats put themselves and their party ahead of the country. A border wall makes a lot of sense when hundreds and likely thousands cross the border illegally every day. The strategy is simple, funnel illegal border crossers to areas without a wall, and increased surveillance and manpower for apprehension.

Not securing our borders makes no sense. Why are we fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan if we're leaving the back door open?

More people are here illegally who came thru air and sea ports. But you don’t care about undocumented people, you only care about trying to scare people. You are a stupid fucking hack.

And we are fighting in I&A to appease your corporate masters you retarded water carrier.

[Kierland]

News flash, asshole---we don't have an immigration crisis.

Yes we do you stupid cunt. As long as illegal aliens enter this country and commit violent crimes against American citizens, we have an immigration crisis. Murder, rape, drunk driving and killing people..( that one is their favorite) all committed by illegal aliens, that is a crisis. But stupid cunts like you think it is all good.

Vets rape and murder people all the time. We should probably kick all vets out of the country.

[Joe in PB]

Who do you suppose is more dangerous, people who over stay their visa's or the criminals that cross our border illegally?

You do underunderstand what a border is I hope, but obviously you don't understand immigration law.

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[Kierland]

So you don’t actually care if they are undocumented. You only care how they got here. Like I said, you are fear mongering.

[Goober McTuber]

Nice white flag, Melty. Just STFU and take your beatings like a man trembling little school girl.

I don't think you understand. I'm speaking DOWN to you as an inferior, McJussie. Just relax, lil' guy. I know I'm quite retarded!

Melty, you could spend years scouring the internet for your inferior. And you would come up empty.

[Joe in PB]

So you don’t actually care if they are undocumented. You only care how they got here. Like I said, you are fear mongering.

Like I said you're a moron who doesn't understand immigration law.

Laws are written to be enforced, something that alludes Democratic politician's whether they deal with illegal immigration, or municipal misdemeanors leading to Shanty Towns in many American cities.

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[Left Seater]

Statistically insignificant.

Nevermind more Americans have been killed by illegal aliens than have been in 737 MAX 8s. Further the deaths in 737 are also statistically insignificant. But you wet your pants over one and ignore the other. Why? My guess is politics.

As for me getting something from this crash you are off the mark as usual. I don't have a type rating on any Boeing products. In fact you could argue that this grounding is better for my business.

As for the crash of the Ethiopian jet, yes the pilots hit the manual cut out, but that isn't all of the story. They also flipped the manual cut out switch back to its original position, thus allowing the malfunctioning system to take control again.

Less than two minutes after takeoff the flaps were retracted and the auto pilot system was switched off. Why? That requires pilot input. This action then opens the door for MCAS to take over. Given the faulty AOA sensor the MCAS system pushed the nose down. This happened twice and 15 seconds after the 2nd nose down command by the MCAS the pilots flipped the stab trim cut-out. At this point the pilots should have brought the throttles back. They didn't. They allowed the almost level plane to accelerate to over 350kts. Nevermind there is a speed restriction of 250 kts below 10,000 feet. Why is this important? For one, it is exceedingly difficult to trim the plane due to airflow of denser air over the control surfaces. In fact one minute after the stab trim cut-out was flipped the FO says he can't manually trim the plane despite multiple attempts. This is due to the excessive speed at a low altitude.

At some point after this one of the pilots, likely the FO with a learner's permit, reset the stab trim cut out switch. I guess he wanted help in trying to trim the plane. This was then fatal as it allowed the malfunctioning AOA reading to help push the nose down.

I have no doubt that had they pulled off some of the power after they hit the stab trim cut-out and used the auto pilot they would be alive today. Further had they not reset the stab trim cut-out, they would likely be alive today. Hell had they not kicked out of the auto-pilot to begin with, they are likely to be alive today.

Yes the software needs an update, but these guys took a bad situation and made it exponitially worse.

[Derron]

News flash, asshole---we don't have an immigration crisis.

Yes we do you stupid cunt. As long as illegal aliens enter this country and commit violent crimes against American citizens, we have an immigration crisis. Murder, rape, drunk driving and killing people..( that one is their favorite) all committed by illegal aliens, that is a crisis. But stupid cunts like you think it is all good.

Vets rape and murder people all the time. We should probably kick all vets out of the country.

Vets are legal citizens whom have a right to be in this country ( which makes your analogy suck donkey cock as usual) and can be dealt with in the legal system. Illegal aliens are in this country illegally, entered illegally and have no right to due process as they are here illegally. Fuck off you simpering little bitch.

[Kierland]

So you don’t actually care if they are undocumented. You only care how they got here. Like I said, you are fear mongering.

Like I said you're a moron who doesn't understand immigration law.

Laws are written to be enforced, something that alludes Democratic politician's whether they deal with illegal immigration, or municipal misdemeanors leading to Shanty Towns in many American cities.

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I understand it plenty. I understand it’s impossible to enforce in a country this big. I also know that that means you should use your resources wisely and building a stupid wall won’t work so it’s a waste.
I also understand how to use “eludes” correctly.