T1B

IndyFrisco wrote: I believe in God. I told myself long ago that if I believed in God and there was no God, so what?

that's commonly referred to as Pascal's Wager
the problem with that is one then starts to question whether that is true belief, or simply believing for the sake of covering ones ass
I refer to this as "Insurance for the Hereafter" not sure that's true belief, but that's not my place to judge

I don't push my religion on anyone while at the same time I don't want anyone pushing their lack of it on to me.

in all honesty, I really want to believe, as I said I was brought up in a fairly conventional Roman Catholic manner and have studied the teachings of various religions-but given the fucked up nature of this world, the intolerable cruelty that goes on every day, the thousands that starve to death every year, I just find it impossible to believe that a "God that created the heavens and the earth" could allow these things to transpire....I don't care how much fruit Adam and Eve ate, that simply doesn't justify starving innocent children to death

Tom In VA wrote:old adage

AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!


Sorry... one of my grammatical pet peeves...

As you were.

Felix wrote:

IndyFrisco wrote:Laws of the Old Testament are far different than events in the Old Testament.

good thing, otherwise the old testament wouldn't make much sense

so, which would you say is correct-that man came before the animals or after

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone;
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field

hell, the same chapter can't even get it straight

I know I know, I'm taking things out of context obviously

The first chapter of Genesis gives a brief summary, in chronological order (day-by-day), of the events of creation.
The second chapter is certainly not a chronology, but it is giving more detail specifically about man, and how man relates to the rest of the creation.

GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image

so who do you think this US was pop, or was that another of man's translation problem?

poptart wrote: The first chapter of Genesis gives a brief summary, in chronological order (day-by-day), of the events of creation.
The second chapter is certainly not a chronology, but it is giving more detail specifically about man, and how man relates to the rest of the creation.

there are lots and lots and lots of errors/inconsistencies in Genesis...

if you'd like I'd be more than happy to list them

The 'us' is used similarly in Genesis 11 when God is speaking of going down to destroy the tower of babel that man has built.

ch. 11, v. 7
-Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.-

Although the term 'trinity' is never used in Scripture, God has made himself known man in those three forms.
The 'us' would seem to be those three forms.

And if you look at 1 John 5:6-8, you can see the following, which might shed some light on that term 'us':
-This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.-


You can bring up the 'inconsistencies' you see if you want to, Felix.
May be best to do so one-at-a-time, but it's up to you.
I can do my best to speak to them.

poptart wrote: You can bring up the 'inconsistencies' you see if you want to, Felix.
May be best to do so one-at-a-time, but it's up to you.
I can do my best to speak to them.

in the final analysis, it really doesn't matter

Actually, "in the final analysis".

Mother Teresa's Final Analysis

People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered; forgive them anyway.

If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; be kind anyway.

If you are honest and sincere, people may deceive you; be honest and sincere anyway.

What you spend years creating, others may destroy overnight; create anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous; be happy anyway.

The good you do today will often be forgotten; do good anyway.

Give the best you have, and it may never be enough; give your best anyway.

In the final analysis, it is between you and God; it was never between you and them anyway

The situation is such that people, from the get-go, look to created things in order to 'fill' themselves.

They gobble all these created things up at a 100% clip.
But people, made as beings who must abide with the Creator, receive 0% from that actual Creator Himself.

This is why the world is full of SO many very strange people who do SO many very strange things.

Generally, people would like to be able to do as Mother Teresa advises.
They just don't have the strength to do it ... Christians included.
Trying to do it is burdensome, stressful, and not honestly done (for the very most part) with a sincerity of heart.
People are ill, both mentally and physically.

Christ promised the Holy Spirit would come to believers, and when people sincerely receive the strength that comes from It they can naturally begin ... sometimes ... to do as Mother Teresa advises.


[illness]Good luck trying to follow her advise on your own strength.[/illness]

Tom In VA wrote:Actually, "in the final analysis".

Mother Teresa's Final Analysis

poptart wrote: Christ promised the Holy Spirit would come to believers, and when people sincerely receive the strength that comes from It they can naturally begin ... sometimes ... to do as Mother Teresa advises.
[illness]Good luck trying to follow her advise on your own strength.[/illness]

Interesting that you both chose to cite Mother Teresa in your responses
you did know that she suffered from an EXTREME crisis of faith throughout the majority of her life right?

"Jesus has a very special love for you," she assured Van der Peet. [But] as for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great, that I look and do not see, Listen and do not hear the tongue moves [in prayer] but does not speak ... I want you to pray for me"

doubting the existence of god is pretty much of a sentence to eternal damnation-it's hard to believe, but works won't get you into heaven-only a true belief in jesus and god will get you a pass to paradise

I should say that my reference to something from M. Teresa was only done because it was a reply to something Tom posted.

Very common point of focus in regard to 'salvation' is that a person should believe now ... so that later they will go to heaven.
This is only partially correct.

Because they are within spiritual darkness, seized by darkness, a person must come into the light ... right now.

If not, great problems will come to them, or continue to come to them, even after they have perhaps 'succeeded' in the world.

Coming out from this is salvation.

Felix,

From page 4 of this thread. In a response to you.

Tom In VA wrote:

Felix wrote: I'm just pretty pissed off right now as I watch one of the best people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing slowly dying from an insidious disease and wonder what is the value and where is the justice there...oh and she's a god fearing Christian?

my anger is largely attributable to that

Take it out on God. He can take it. His own begotten son cried out from the cross "My God, My God, why have you foresaken me".

Mother Teresa, a Christian who WALKED most peoples' TALK, also went through vast periods of feeling as if somehow God abandoned her.

It's natural Felix. God knows that.

Christ did too, he asked why God abandoned him. It's part of the process, apparently. Ultimately, their faith carried them through the feelings of feeling abandoned and their "crisis of "faith.

poptart wrote:I'm speaking of what is in the Bible, what we're told about man's condition(s) prior to the Genesis 3 incident contrasted very starkly with how things became after the Genesis 3 incident.

I don't remember tornadoes being in Genesis. The last time I checked, tornadoes were a part of nature. Was that before or after, Genesis 3?

Please clarify.

TIA.

You can believe there were tornados in Genesis 1 and 2 if you want to.
It's your opinion.

As I read about the garden, Adam and Eve, their conditions, and God's relationship to them, I just don't see it that way at all.

God blessed them, was with them, and all was good, very good.

Only after the event of Genesis 3 did the world become a harrowing place, and a place where death entered.

poptart wrote: Only after the event of Genesis 3

this is where it starts to get tricky...of course god created the devil (for whatever reason) and the devil assumed the identity of a talking snake and tempted Eve into eating the forbidden fruit (why god would have a "forbidden tree" is anybody's guess)

when they ate the fruit they suddenly realized they were naked and they hid from god (god being all knowing and all seeing, I find the whole idea of "hiding" kind of funny) but in any event the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?" (which i find even funnier because he sees everything-obviously it was a rhetorical question)

And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" (again, another set of rhetorical questions because he already knew the answers)

So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
you will eat dust all the days of your life." of course, snakes don't eat dust, but that's neither here nor there in the strange mixed up world of fundamental Christiandom

I guess god was looking for a reason to unleash all that pent up rage that he wields unmercifully throughout the majority of the Old Testament

To a couple of the questions, Felix:

God allowed the devil, for sure, who was a favored and 'high level' angel who rebelled against God and began a great war in heaven.
He was cast out and came to earth, with his demons, where he deceives the whole world.

'Talking snake' is speculation, because it is not said as such in Scripture.
Genesis 3 tells us that it was the serpent (satan) who deceived Eve, and an important cross-reference in Revelation 12:9.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The serpent (satan), in some form, was the deceiver, and he did, in some way, communicate to Eve.


Why was there a forbidden tree?
I think this ...

God gave man everything, blessed him thoroughly and above all creation, gave him everything he needed, and gave him total authority to rule and subdue the rest of creation.
But one tree placed in the midst of the garden was a reminder to man that he was a creation, and it was a reminder to him of his God.

Do anything, have anything, enjoy, ... just don't do this one thing, which would signify that you've denied your God.
If you choose to deny God you will surely die.


Of course God knew where Adam was.

The question God asked Adam is the same one He is asking you, "Where are you, Felix?"

poptart wrote: Christ promised the Holy Spirit would come to believers, and when people sincerely receive the strength that comes from It...

Have YOU received the Holy Spirit?

How does one go about receiving this elusive entity?

Must one become a monk and swear off all the pleasures of this world, including the NFL?

If one had truly received IT, how could one NOT "sincerely receive the strength that comes from It"?

I'm asking because at that time in my life when I got "saved" and was seriously trying, all I heard about the answers to my doubts was: "You just need the Holy Spirit".

Well, I prayed, begged, and pleaded for it to happen, and it didn't. I wished for God to appear to me in the form of a burning bush, if only in a dream, and say "Do you believe in me NOW, motherfucker?"

No such luck.

I have dreamed about the devil, though. Scared the shit out of me and woke up in a cold sweat. Can there be one w/o the other?

Sorry 'tart. I'm not buying the bullshit you're peddling.

Wagon, yes, I have received the Holy Spirit.
It's not elusive at all.

Everyone who receives Jesus Christ receives the Holy Spirit, which frees them from the law of sin and death, and which abides in them ALWAYS and FOREVER.

If you have received Christ you have received the Holy Spirit.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

John 14:16,17
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


All who believe and receive Jesus Christ receive the Holy Spirit.

Continuing to be led by that Spirit is something a bit different.
Often hearing or reading God's Word is a start, followed by continuing to think (or meditate) on that Word.

poptart wrote: Continuing to be led by that Spirit is something a bit different.
Often hearing or reading God's Word is a start, followed by continuing to think (or meditate) on that Word.

Fair enough.

poptart wrote: 'Talking snake' is speculation, because it is not said as such in Scripture.
Genesis 3 tells us that it was the serpent (satan) who deceived Eve, and an important cross-reference in Revelation 12:9.

well then find my any serpent that eats dust and we'll have something to chat about

The 'eat dust' reference is given in Gen. 3:14.
Immediately following, in v. 15, God says that the serpent's head will be bruised and that the seed of the woman (Christ) will have his heel bruised.

Those things (v. 15) didn't literally happen (that we can see), but the symbolism of it's truth is powerful.

It also says that women will despise snakes until the end of time, and judging from my women, no truer words were ever written.

Do NOT be in my wife's way when she's fleeing from a snake. She'll run you over like Christian Okoye over a Raiders linebacker.

War Wagon wrote:She'll run you over like Christian Okoye over a Raiders linebacker.

I'm not scared.

Sin,
Steve Atwater

Hello is this thing still on?

If you don't mind me showing my ignorance Dins...learn me why that is a grammatical pet peeve. I have used it often not knowing it as being incorrect. I would assume that the definition of adage is something like "an old wivestale or something, but that doesn't seem grammtically incorrect to me it's just an old, old wivestale (or whatever). Just curious.

Dinsdale wrote:

Tom In VA wrote:old adage

AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!


Sorry... one of my grammatical pet peeves...

As you were.

Felix wrote: I'll assume my assertion was correct, religious beliefs have never produced anything to better the human condition

one thing I can tell you with no uncertainty that there has never been a war started in the name of atheism

The French Revolution and Napoleonic wars that followed killed more people than the Crusades, Inquisitions and 'religious' wars in history.

And that's not even counting Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin.

Compared to you guys, the Wahabis are veritable Quakers.

Diogenes wrote:The French Revolution and Napoleonic wars
And that's not even counting Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin.

those wars were started in the name of atheism?

Felix wrote:

Diogenes wrote:The French Revolution and Napoleonic wars.
And that's not even counting Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin.

those wars were started in the name of atheism?

In the name of and in defense of.

Whereas the so-called 'Christian' wars were in the name of and in opposition to the principles of Christianity.

mvscal wrote:Fuck off, thumper.

Back at you, Comrade.

mvscal wrote:
Pure bullshit. Fuck off, thumper.

well said