How was Church?

It's the 19th Anniversary for T1B - Fuckin' A

Moderator: Jesus H Christ

User avatar
Felix
2012 JAFFL Champ
Posts: 9271
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: probably on a golf course

Post by Felix »

poptart wrote:You're flailing, Felix.
wait, you wrote about some effect the great flood had on longevity and I'm flailing..... :lol:
The virgin birth is REPEATEDLY written of in the New Testament.

All four of the Gospels were written from different perspectives.
No virgin birth written of in Mark ... ?
Big deal.
Early manuscripts of Mark also don't include ....... the resurrection.
uh your not doing much to bolster your position here tart.....and what exactly are "early manuscripts"...that kind of implies that the inerrant book had more than one draft.....
The book of John does speak of the virgin birth.
Dialogue between Jesus and the Jews (Jn 8:41,42).
Jesus tell them that, unlike them, God is His Father.
Virgin birth.
so why didn't John specifically say anything about what most would consider to be one of the greatest miracles of all time....instead of the verse you quoted...and since when is God not everyones father?
Felix, in your mind, what is the most important event in the history of man .... ?
what does that have to do with the discussion at hand....tart, I already told you that we probably didn't have a lot to talk about, but your the one that decided to step back into the thread...so don't change this around......
poptart wrote: There are no errors in the Bible.

There are plenty of misrepresentations by people of what is in the Book, however.
ah, so again it's the way people represent the Bible rather than what's actually written in the bible that causes all the problems.......

why don't you point out some of these misrepresentations to me, so that I too can understand...

tia....
Last edited by Felix on Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
get out, get out while there's still time
User avatar
poptart
Quitty McQuitface
Posts: 15211
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:45 pm

Post by poptart »

Felix wrote:so why didn't John specifically say anything about what most would consider to be one of the greatest miracles of all time....
Why does he need to .... ?
Because you say so .... ?
Each Gospel was written from a different perspective, and written to tell certain things, and make certain points that the writer wanted to make.
The fact that John didn't speak specifically about the virgin birth is a total non-issue.


I stepped back to the thread because you asked questions.

I'm polite.
User avatar
Felix
2012 JAFFL Champ
Posts: 9271
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: probably on a golf course

Post by Felix »

poptart wrote:
I stepped back to the thread because you asked questions.

I'm polite.
look, believe whatever you want...it's not my concern.....

but I'd like to point out to you that in order for you to be right....there are a lot of innocents (stillborn infants, mentally incapacitated, etc.) that can never make it to heaven, if we're following strict adherence to the Bible....they are simply incapable of "accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior" what about them? and speaking of which, why do you suppose that God inflicts (that's really the only applicable word, given Christian beliefs) bad things like mental retardation on the innocent......

further, you must realize that in order for you (Christians) to be right, there's an awful lot of people in the world (Muslims, Hindu's, Jews, etc.) that HAVE TO BE WRONG.....there's no way around it....what about those people.....Jesus is going to condemn them to hell because they weren't born in the right country? nothing personal bud, but that's pretty fucking sanctimonious of you if you ask me.....
get out, get out while there's still time
User avatar
poptart
Quitty McQuitface
Posts: 15211
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:45 pm

Post by poptart »

The Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc ... are wrong, yes.

There is A truth.

but I'd like to point out to you that in order for you to be right....there are a lot of innocents (stillborn infants, mentally incapacitated, etc.) that can never make it to heaven, if we're following strict adherence to the Bible....they are simply incapable of "accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior" what about them? and speaking of which, why do you suppose that God inflicts (that's really the only applicable word, given Christian beliefs) bad things like mental retardation on the innocent......
Those are good and interesting questions.
I'll answer this way, Felix.


God created everything.
Trees were created to live in the ground. Apart from this order they die.
Fish created to live in the water. Apart from this they die.
Man created to live with God. Apart from this they die.
The man God created to live with him was deceived by satan, sinned and was separated from God.
The man's life became a curse. This is his fate, and he will surely die.
All men come from this starting point, because we are offspring of the original man.
So we are born into this curse and this fate.

God is spirit, and He created man in His image -- man has a spirit, and a spiritual hunger.
So people, whot were intended to live with God, by His grace, instead live by their own strength.
They take on many behaviors, attitudes, strategies, etc ..... in attempt to find a sense of happiness.
But this leads them deeper into their problems.

People become mentally oppressed. We see it everywhere. Who can honestly say they are not oppressed? And some become very seriously oppressed.
Then people develop physical problems.
Then they die.
Then because they were told so many times to believe in God, but didn't, they go to hell.
Then their 'spiritual problems' are passed on to their children.



See yourself within the resume of man.
This IS the truth.
See the world, and the questions you have, within this.

If not, whatever answers I give to your questions will not sit well with you.


Btw, that church in America is failing.
The 'resume of man' is what the church needs to put it's emphasis on.
Every church service this should be given.
But instead the church has disbelief, and they have gone off in many directions away from truly giving people the answer they need.
The Gospel is what they need.
Which is what that resume is.

People are hungry, because they are so terribly oppressed.
Life beats us down.
We need to rest.
Christians are hungry and the church feeds them SO poorly.
So Christians act very strange.

Don't look at them.
Don't look at me.


Look at the resume.
User avatar
Felix
2012 JAFFL Champ
Posts: 9271
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: probably on a golf course

Post by Felix »

poptart wrote:
Those are good and interesting questions.
I'll answer this way, Felix.
I understand your zealotry for what you believe and I say that it's a good thing for you that you seem to have found the answers you were looking for.....

but simply regurgitating what you previously posted really doesn't provide answers to the specific questions I asked.....

but not to worry, I haven't found many religious experts that can answer them either without going into the whole "you've just got to have faith" thing......

having been born and raised a Roman Catholic (lapsed), I've lived with these questions all of my life.....
get out, get out while there's still time
User avatar
Tom In VA
Eternal Scobode
Posts: 9042
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:04 am
Location: In Va. near D.C.

Post by Tom In VA »

pop,

People can be Christians without saying ... "Hey I'm a Christian", I think.

I've oft wondered why, if the existence of God, Christ's sacrifice, and the Holy Spirit were so universal ... why people felt a need to say "You must profess your belief in Christ".

Okay, well I believe Christ and the Father are one in the same. As such, if one believes in the Supreme Being, does not one by default believe in Christ ?


A piss poor analogy if you will but I'll use it.


Jimi Hendrix was unable to read a lick of music. Yet produced some of the most beautiful and fluent examples of music and sound, from his spirit, his soul.

While some for instance might not be well versed in the bible, might not get all the so called "rules" and mathmatics of what it is to be a human being with a soul and subject to God's domain. They can, like Christ, be obedient to the will of the Father. Without even calling themselves "Christian".

Sometimes I wonder if Christians, I know I have, but if the actual institutions of religion forget ... and kind of like how Jesus challenged the Jews of His time .... these institutions so need to be challenged today.

Humans. Pervert things. We have perverted the very essence of what it means to be human.

I'm pretty sure that means we are capable and have perverted the very essence of what it means to be "Christian".



'Sup Dins.



Blue light rain, whoa unbroken chain,
Looking for familiar faces in an empty window pane.

Listening for the secret, searching for the sound
But I could only hear the preacher and the baying of his hounds.

Willow sky, whoa, I walk and wonder why,
They say love your brother, but you will catch it when you try.

Roll you down the line boy, drop you for a loss,
Ride you out on a cold railroad and nail you to a cross.


November and more, as I wait for the score,
Theyre telling me forgiveness is the key to every door.
A slow winder day a night like forever,
Sink like a stone, float like a feather.

Lilac rain, unbroken chain, song of the sawhet owl.
Out on the mountain, itll drive you insane, listening to the winds howl

Unbroken chain of sorrow and pearls, unbroken chain of shy and sea.
Unbroken chain of the western wind, unbroken chain of you and me.


I admire your faith.
User avatar
Rootbeer
13,500
Posts: 817
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:49 am

Post by Rootbeer »

Felix wrote:
not to mention by their own admission....the three witnesses, that are prominently displayed on the inside cover page of every BoM all eventually admitted they had never actually "seen" the golden tablets, but rather saw them through divine enlightenment.....

did I mention they were all eventually excommunicated..... :lol:
Incorrect. They were all excommunicated but they never denied seeing the golden plates. They were offered money, publicity, political prominence, etc. if they would deny but not one of them ever did. They spoke out against the church and said that Joseph Smith had lost the ability to receive revelation. They said many unkind things and were kicked out. They all eventually returned, repented, and rejoined the church. One of the three hated Brigham Young so badly that he wouldn't move West with the saints. He stayed in Ohio and his personal history contains many instances of people baiting him to deny his witness. He never did. None of them did.

Remember also that Charles Anton was given the opportunity to authenticate Joseph Smith's translation of the characters on the golden plates. He found the translation to be accurate and signed an affidavit to certify it. Then Anton offered to translate the book but he could not because it was sealed and he replied "I cannot read a sealed book." Thereby fulfilling Isaiah's prophecy found in chapter 29 verse 11 "And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:" Of course that must have been Joseph Smith's cunning also. He wrote the Book of Mormon and then duped a linguist into fulfilling prophecy. :rolleyes:

You can prove or disprove anything with enough science and cunning words. Nevertheless the Lord's ways are not man's ways and I don't need science to understand God. He and I communicate on a spiritual level. His words are in the Book of Mormon more plainly than anywhere else in print. Everyone will have the opportunity to accept or deny it. I caution you do not do so lightly. We will all account for our beliefs and our actions at the last day. I heard a Catholic Priest say that the only religions on the earth that matter are Catholicism and the LDS because only one of two scenarios is possible. Either the priesthood of God was taken from the earth or it wasn't. If it never left the earth then the Catholics are right. The Pope has an unbroken Apostolic lineage that carries the keys to the priesthood and it is only through those keys that salvation can be attained. OR the priesthood was taken from the earth during the great apostasy and must be restored to the earth. In that scenario Joseph Smith was the prophet of that restoration and the current LDS prophet holds the keys to the priesthood through which salvation can be attained through ordinances and covenants. This Priest concluded by saying that the protestants were going to hell either way. I don't know how much of what he said was just sour grapes between catholics and protestants but the point he makes is salient. Where is the priesthood of God? There is no religion on earth that can bring you closer to salvation than the religion that has the priesthood. Find the priesthood. There is nothing you can do in life that is more vital than that.
Ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby.
User avatar
Rootbeer
13,500
Posts: 817
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:49 am

Post by Rootbeer »

poptart wrote: Love is a spirit.

Jesus told us that God is a spirit.
Jesus told us that he who hath seen him hath seen the Father. The Father told us that Jesus is his beloved son. I believe in separate beings but identical as told by Jesus. If Jesus has a physical body then it must needs be that the Father has a physical body because I take my Savior at his word. God is a spirit and we worship him in spirit. We certainly cannot approach him physically. I believe we are created in his image. His literal, physical image.

God created man in His image .... meaning man is, unlike animals, a spiritual being.
Expound on this if you don't mind. If animals don't have spirits what commands their locution? Where do they get their personalities?
Ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby.
User avatar
Mister Bushice
Drinking all the beer Luther left behind
Posts: 9490
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:39 pm

Post by Mister Bushice »

poptart wrote: in your mind, what is the most important event in the history of man .... ?
Invention of the toaster, hands down.




Otherwise, no poptart.



God works in mysterious ways.
User avatar
poptart
Quitty McQuitface
Posts: 15211
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:45 pm

Post by poptart »

Rooty, God gave both man and animals the breath of life.
Man is unique among all creation, however, in that he was given a soul (Genesis 2:7).
In the creation account, animals are not given such a thing.
Only man.

Man is also created in God's image.
Jesus tells us that God is spirit.
Many other places in the Bible tell us the very same thing.

When Jesus says "he who hath seen Me hath seen the Father," He is saying that He IS God.
God came in the flesh in the form of Jesus.

In Psalms it makes mention in a couple of places of God having wings.
He doesn't.
BSmack
2005 and 2010 JFFL Champion
Posts: 29350
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:21 pm
Location: Lookin for tards

Post by BSmack »

Rootbeer wrote:Remember also that Charles Anton was given the opportunity to authenticate Joseph Smith's translation of the characters on the golden plates.
That's funny. Because this is what Mr. Anton has to say about the LDS.
New York, Feb. 17, 1834.
Dear Sir -- I received this morning your favor of the 9th instant,
and lose no time in making a reply. The whole story about my
having pronouncd the Mormonite inscription to be "reformed
Egyptian hieroglyphics" is perfectly false. Some years ago, a plain,
and apparently simple-hearted farmer, called upon me with a note
from Dr. Mitchell of our city, now deceased, requesting me to
decypher, if possible, a paper, which the farmer would hand me,
and which Dr. M. confessed he had been unable to understand.
Upon examining the paper in question, I soon came to the
conclusion that it was all a trick, perhaps a hoax.

When I asked the person, who brought it, how he obtained the
writing, he gave me, as far as I can now recollect, the following
account: A "gold book," consisting of a number of plates of gold,
fastened together in the shape of a book by wires of the same
metal, had been dug up in the northern part of the state of New
York, and along with the book an enormous pair of "gold
spectacles"! These spectacles were so large, that, if a person
attempted to look through them, his two eyes would have to be
turned towards one of the glasses merely, the spectacles in
question being altogether too large for the breadth of the human
face. Whoever examined the plates through the spectacles, was
enabled not only to read them, but fully to understand their
meaning. All this knowledge, however, was confined at that time
to a young man, who had the trunk containing the book and
spectacles in his sole possession. This young man was placed
behind a curtain, in the garret of a farmhouse, and being thus
concealed from view, put on the spectacles
occasionally, or rather, looked through one of the glasses,
decyphered the characters in the book, and, having committed
some of them to paper, handed copies from behind the curtain, to
those who stood on the outside. Not a word, however, was said
about the plates having been decyphered "by the gift of God."
Everything, in this way, was effected by the large pair of
spectacles. The farmer added, that he had been requested to
contribute a sum of money towards the publication of the "golden
book," the contents of which would, as he had been assured,
produce an entire change in the world and save it from ruin. So
urgent had been these solicitations, that he intended selling his
farm and handing over the amount received to those who wished
to publish the plates. As a last precautionary step, however, he
had resolved to come to New York, and obtain the opinion of the
learned about the meaning of the paper which he brought with him,
and which had been given him as a part of the contents of the
book, although no translation had been furnished at the time by
the young man with the spectacles.

On hearing this odd story, I changed my opinion about the paper,
and, instead of viewing it any longer as a hoax upon the learned,
I began to regard it as part of a scheme to cheat the farmer of his
money, and I communicated my suspicions to him, warning him to
beware of rogues. He requested an opinion from me in writing,
which of course I declined giving, and he then took his leave
carrying the paper with him. This paper was in fact a singular
scrawl. It consisted of all kinds of crooked characters disposed in
columns, and had evidently been prepared by some person who
had before him at the time a book containing various alphabets.
Greek and Hebrew letters, crosses and flourishes, Roman letters
inverted or placed sideways, were arranged in perpendicular
columns,and the whole ended in a rude delineation of a circle divided into
various compartments, decked with various strange marks, and
evidently copied after the Mexican Calender given by Humboldt,
but copied in such a way as not to betray the source whence it
was derived. I am thus particular as to the contents of the paper,
inasmuch as I have frequently conversed with my friends of the
subject, since the Mormonite excitement began, and well remember
that the paper contained any thing else but "Egyptian
Hieroglyphics."

Some time after, the same farmer paid me a second visit. He
brought with him the golden book in print, and offered it to me for
sale. I declined purchasing. He then asked permission to leave the
book with me for examination. I declined receiving it, although his
manner was strangely urgent. I adverted once more to the roguery
which had been in my opinion practised upon him, and asked him
what had become of the gold plates. He informed me that they
were in a trunk with the large pair of spectacles. I advised him to
go to a magistrate and have the trunk examined. He said the
"curse of God" would come upon him should he do this. On my
pressing him, however, to pursue the course which I had
recommended, he told me that he would open the trunk, if I would
take the "curse of God" upon myself. I replied that I would do so
with the greatest willingness, and would incur every risk of that
nature, provided I could only extricate him from the grasp of
rogues. He then left me.

I have thus given you a full statement of all that I know respecting
the origin of Mormonism, and must beg you, as a personal favor,
to publish this letter immediately, should you find my name
mentioned again by these wretched fanatics.
Yours respectfully, CHAS. ANTHON.
E. D. Howe, Esq. Painesville, Ohio

http://www.truthnet.org/mormon/mormonis ... affair.htm
The funny thing is that Smith never lived to profit from his scam. But at least he
looked like Robert Smith. So maybe he did save the world from Mecha Striesand.

Image
"Once upon a time, dinosaurs didn't have families. They lived in the woods and ate their children. It was a golden age."

—Earl Sinclair

"I do have respect for authority even though I throw jelly dicks at them.

- Antonio Brown
Goober McTuber
World Renowned Last Word Whore
Posts: 25891
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:07 pm

Post by Goober McTuber »

When I was young and they packed me off to school
and taught me how not to play the game,
I didn't mind if they groomed me for success,
or if they said that I was a fool.
So I left there in the morning
with their God tucked underneath my arm --
their half-assed smiles and the book of rules.
So I asked this God a question
and by way of firm reply,
He said -- I'm not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
So to my old headmaster (and to anyone who cares):
before I'm through I'd like to say my prayers --
I don't believe you:
you had the whole damn thing all wrong --
He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
Well you can excomunicate me on my way to Sunday school
and have all the bishops harmonize these lines --
how do you dare tell me that I'm my Father's son
when that was just an accident of Birth.
I'd rather look around me -- compose a better song
`cos that's the honest measure of my worth.
In your pomp and all your glory you're a poorer man than me,
as you lick the boots of death born out of fear.
I don't believe you:
you had the whole damn thing all wrong --
He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
Joe in PB wrote: Yeah I'm the dumbass
schmick, speaking about Larry Nassar's pubescent and prepubescent victims wrote: They couldn't even kick that doctors ass

Seems they rather just lay there, get fucked and play victim
G.O.
Elwood
Posts: 513
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:52 pm
Location: germantown, MD

Post by G.O. »

Felix wrote:
G.O. wrote: you have any beef with the NT?
this is from six posts above, but what the hell....

why do you suppose that only two of the gospel "writers" seemingly knew of the "virgin" birth of Jesus......

I'd think that'd be some pretty big news, but apparently Mark and John didn't feel it necessary to report it.....the apostle Paul never mentioned it either, although he did mention that Jesus was born from the lineage of David (Romans 1:3) and did note that he was "born of a woman" (big surprise there) (Galatians 4:4), but no mention of her being a "virgin".....

oh, I guess ^^^^^ this might serve as a NT quandry for G.O.....


that ought to get you started.....

let me know when you finish with those problems and I'll get you started on a few more......
alrighty, so is it your objection that the 4 gospel writers should all have included in their accounts information that you believe to be important? and they didn't, so that makes their testimony unreliable?
User avatar
Felix
2012 JAFFL Champ
Posts: 9271
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: probably on a golf course

Post by Felix »

poptart wrote:The Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc ... are wrong, yes.
too bad for people like Mahatma Ghandi.....

in spite of all the great things he did he's now in hell......

no other way to see it.....
G.O. wrote: alrighty, so is it your objection that the 4 gospel writers should all have included in their accounts information that you believe to be important? and they didn't, so that makes their testimony unreliable?
don't you think that a "virgin birth" would be pretty important stuff.....especially as it relates to the birth of the Savior?

btw, this just merely scratches the surface....

how about the questions I raised to tart (the ones I never got an answer to)
get out, get out while there's still time
User avatar
Dinsdale
Lord Google
Posts: 33414
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:30 pm
Location: Rip City

Post by Dinsdale »

Rootbeer wrote:Remember also that Charles Anton was given the opportunity to authenticate Joseph Smith's translation of the characters on the golden plates. He found the translation to be accurate and signed an affidavit to certify it. Then Anton offered to translate the book but he could not because it was sealed
Followed by:

You can prove or disprove anything with enough cunning words


Out-freaking-standing.


Verifies the translation, and even signed an affidavit to that æffect....without actually seeing the text.



Awwwwwwesome. That'll be 10%, please.
I got 99 problems but the 'vid ain't one
G.O.
Elwood
Posts: 513
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:52 pm
Location: germantown, MD

Post by G.O. »

Felix wrote:
G.O. wrote: alrighty, so is it your objection that the 4 gospel writers should all have included in their accounts information that you believe to be important? and they didn't, so that makes their testimony unreliable?
don't you think that a "virgin birth" would be pretty important stuff.....especially as it relates to the birth of the Savior?

btw, this just merely scratches the surface....

how about the questions I raised to tart (the ones I never got an answer to)
if you or i were putting together a biography of jesus' life right now, i would include it. but the gospel writers were eyewitnesses or scribes for eyewitnesses and it seems that they wrote generally about what they saw. john says there was so much more he could write, but he included what he felt was important.

still, if every writer, writing years after these events, all wrote about the exact same events with all the same detail, it would call into question whether or not anything they wrote was really what they saw, or was it a story they decided to put together as a group.

i'll have to go back and look at the questions you asked poptart.
User avatar
Dinsdale
Lord Google
Posts: 33414
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:30 pm
Location: Rip City

Post by Dinsdale »

G.O. wrote:still, if every writer, writing years after these events, all wrote about the exact same events with all the same detail, it would call into question whether or not anything they wrote was really what they saw, or was it a story they decided to put together as a group.

In the legal profession, I believe they call that "corroborating testimony." And if witnersses can't come up with it in court, they are disregarded.


Outstanding logic : Their stories don't match up, so they must be true
I got 99 problems but the 'vid ain't one
User avatar
Felix
2012 JAFFL Champ
Posts: 9271
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: probably on a golf course

Post by Felix »

G.O. wrote:

if you or i were putting together a biography of jesus' life right now, i would include it. but the gospel writers were eyewitnesses or scribes for eyewitnesses and it seems that they wrote generally about what they saw. john says there was so much more he could write, but he included what he felt was important.
so I'm guessing that virgin births must have been pretty common for John to have not felt it important as it relates to the birth of the Son of God......
still, if every writer, writing years after these events, all wrote about the exact same events with all the same detail, it would call into question whether or not anything they wrote was really what they saw, or was it a story they decided to put together as a group.
hmmmmm...interesting twist here....the fact they didn't write the same thing proves their accounts were true.....

by your logic if all of the eyewitnesses in a murder trial come up with different stories the accused should be convicted anyway.....

funny stuff......
get out, get out while there's still time
G.O.
Elwood
Posts: 513
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:52 pm
Location: germantown, MD

Post by G.O. »

by your logic if all of the eyewitnesses in a murder trial come up with different stories the accused should be convicted anyway.....

funny stuff......
no.

i'm no expert, so i have to appeal to some greater authority. the basic premise of interpreting eyewitness accounts as it relates to the gospels goes like this-

"In 1874, Harvard Law professor and attorney Simon Greenleaf's The Testimony of the Evangelists Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administrated in Courts of Justice was published. In addition to demonstrating why the Gospel accounts would be acceptable in a court of law, the 1874 edition featured a section called “Harmony of the Gospels,” which chronologically reconciled the testimonies from the King James Bible and addressed alleged discrepancies.

Regarding the differences in the accounts, Greenleaf wrote in § 34, “The character of their narratives is like that of all other true witnesses, containing -- as Dr. [William] Paley observes -- substantial truth, under circumstantial variety. [From A View of the Evidences of Christianity, 1794. See Appendix 2.] There is enough of discrepancy to show that there could have been no previous concert among them; and at the same time such substantial agreement as to show that they all were independent narrators of the same great transaction, as the events actually occurred.” "

greenleaf was one of the principle founder of harvard law school and wrote a three volume work called 'a treatise on the laws of evidence', which is "still considered one of the greatest authorities on the subject in the entire literature of legal procedure".

the gospels apparently pass the legal test.
User avatar
Mikey
Carbon Neutral since 1955
Posts: 31439
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:06 pm
Location: Paradise

Post by Mikey »

poptart wrote:Rooty, God gave both man and animals the breath of life.
If God gave man (and woman) the breath of life,
then it would follow that human life begins with a person's first breath,
right?
User avatar
poptart
Quitty McQuitface
Posts: 15211
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:45 pm

Post by poptart »

Felix wrote:how about the questions I raised to tart (the ones I never got an answer to)
I guess this is what you want answers to .....
Felix wrote:but I'd like to point out to you that in order for you to be right....there are a lot of innocents (stillborn infants, mentally incapacitated, etc.) that can never make it to heaven, if we're following strict adherence to the Bible....they are simply incapable of "accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior" what about them? and speaking of which, why do you suppose that God inflicts (that's really the only applicable word, given Christian beliefs) bad things like mental retardation on the innocent......

further, you must realize that in order for you (Christians) to be right, there's an awful lot of people in the world (Muslims, Hindu's, Jews, etc.) that HAVE TO BE WRONG.....there's no way around it....what about those people.....Jesus is going to condemn them to hell because they weren't born in the right country? nothing personal bud, but that's pretty fucking sanctimonious of you if you ask me.....
I can't answer where an infant's soul goes, Felix.

For the rest of it, this is how I answer .......

All problems, mental and physical, came out from man leaving God.
All manners of sickness.
And we are all victims of it.
We are all afflicted, and we all suffer from it in varying degrees.

Viewing it as a 'punishment' is perhaps not the way to see it.

Consider the exchange Jesus had with his disciples in John 9:1-3 .......

1: And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2: And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3: Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


In whatever circumstance one finds himself into, the very critical thing that must happen is that a person must change their identity.
One must become God's child.
Unless that happens a person will never break out of the curse of man, and one's fate.

Ghandi did a lot of good on the earth, yet could never break this fate.
As such he went back to the ground from which he originated.
Only the Christ broke the law of sin and death.
User avatar
poptart
Quitty McQuitface
Posts: 15211
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:45 pm

Post by poptart »

Mikey wrote:
poptart wrote:Rooty, God gave both man and animals the breath of life.
If God gave man (and woman) the breath of life,
then it would follow that human life begins with a person's first breath,
right?
I guess you're trying to justify abortion by that logic ... ?

My answer is for you to start a topic in another forum.
User avatar
Mister Bushice
Drinking all the beer Luther left behind
Posts: 9490
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:39 pm

Post by Mister Bushice »

is that a no?
If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." —GWB Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000
Martyred wrote: Hang in there, Whitey. Smart people are on their way with dictionaries.
War Wagon wrote:being as how I've got "stupid" draped all over, I'm not really sure.
User avatar
poptart
Quitty McQuitface
Posts: 15211
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:45 pm

Post by poptart »

It's a resounding YES to the question, "Is Mike's question moronic?"

Btw, when kids are born in Korea they are 1 yr old.

I find that interesting.
User avatar
RadioFan
Liberal Media Conspirator
Posts: 7487
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:59 am
Location: Tulsa

Post by RadioFan »

G.O. wrote:the gospels apparently pass the legal test.
I laughed.
Van wrote:It's like rimming an unbathed fat chick from Missouri. It's highly distinctive, miserably unforgettable and completely wrong.
User avatar
Mister Bushice
Drinking all the beer Luther left behind
Posts: 9490
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:39 pm

Post by Mister Bushice »

poptart wrote:It's a resounding YES to the question, "Is Mike's question moronic?"
Well You certainly aren't the kind we have to wind up on Sundays.
Btw, when kids are born in Korea they are 1 yr old.

I find that interesting.
That's 'cause the Koreans were told there would be no math.
User avatar
poptart
Quitty McQuitface
Posts: 15211
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:45 pm

Post by poptart »

RadioFan wrote:
G.O. wrote:the gospels apparently pass the legal test.
I laughed.
That was pretty funny.

Imagine if it was determined that after all this time, the Gospels are found to be .... ILLEGAL.


Somebody might get crucified.
User avatar
rozy
Cowboy
Posts: 2928
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:45 pm

Post by rozy »

How was Church?
Fantastic!!
John Boehner wrote:Boehner said. "In Congress, we have a red button, a green button and a yellow button, alright. Green means 'yes,' red means 'no,' and yellow means you're a chicken shit. And the last thing we need in the White House, in the oval office, behind that big desk, is some chicken who wants to push this yellow button.
User avatar
Felix
2012 JAFFL Champ
Posts: 9271
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: probably on a golf course

Post by Felix »

G.O. wrote:

the gospels apparently pass the legal test.
the Simon Greenleaf argument...haven't seen that for a while....

of course, the part of Greenleaf's conclusions you failed to note is that his analyses are based on the premise that the gospels are in fact the word of God....

second, while they may "pass the legal test", the fact is that no US court has ever allowed testimony of "supernatural events"....which is also an specific assumption of Greenleaf's conclusion....so while they may pass some contrived legal test, they would never be allowed in court....

there's several new books that cover the same ground (actually, they just rehash Greenleaf's ideas).....
get out, get out while there's still time
User avatar
LTS TRN 2
I suck Jew cock
Posts: 8802
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:42 pm
Location: Here

Post by LTS TRN 2 »

G.O. wrote:
by your logic if all of the eyewitnesses in a murder trial come up with different stories the accused should be convicted anyway.....

funny stuff......
no.

i'm no expert, so i have to appeal to some greater authority. the basic premise of interpreting eyewitness accounts as it relates to the gospels goes like this-

"In 1874, Harvard Law professor and attorney Simon Greenleaf's The Testimony of the Evangelists Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administrated in Courts of Justice was published. In addition to demonstrating why the Gospel accounts would be acceptable in a court of law, the 1874 edition featured a section called “Harmony of the Gospels,” which chronologically reconciled the testimonies from the King James Bible and addressed alleged discrepancies.

Regarding the differences in the accounts, Greenleaf wrote in § 34, “The character of their narratives is like that of all other true witnesses, containing -- as Dr. [William] Paley observes -- substantial truth, under circumstantial variety. [From A View of the Evidences of Christianity, 1794. See Appendix 2.] There is enough of discrepancy to show that there could have been no previous concert among them; and at the same time such substantial agreement as to show that they all were independent narrators of the same great transaction, as the events actually occurred.” "

greenleaf was one of the principle founder of harvard law school and wrote a three volume work called 'a treatise on the laws of evidence', which is "still considered one of the greatest authorities on the subject in the entire literature of legal procedure".

the gospels apparently pass the legal test.

BWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

If there is anything more pathetic than a nominally educated Christer....well...there isn't. 'Cept an actual devout Mormon. Seriously, if you idiots so despise the world and all its inherent evil...why not split? Go meet Jesus and praise him forever. GO!
User avatar
rozy
Cowboy
Posts: 2928
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:45 pm

Post by rozy »

Someone needs to be careful what they ask for...
John Boehner wrote:Boehner said. "In Congress, we have a red button, a green button and a yellow button, alright. Green means 'yes,' red means 'no,' and yellow means you're a chicken shit. And the last thing we need in the White House, in the oval office, behind that big desk, is some chicken who wants to push this yellow button.
User avatar
Smackie Chan
Eternal Scobode
Posts: 7308
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 1:56 pm
Location: Inside Your Speakers

Post by Smackie Chan »

poptart wrote:Btw, when kids are born in Korea they are 1 yr old.
You know that isn't true. They may consider a newborn's age to be one, but that's because they consider age to be the year of life one is in, not the amount of years that have elapsed since one's birth, as we in the West do. As a Christer, you should easily comprehend this, since Year 1, theoretically, began the day baby Jeebus was born. Does that mean he was a year old at birth?
Stultorum infinitus est numerus
G.O.
Elwood
Posts: 513
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:52 pm
Location: germantown, MD

Post by G.O. »

LTS TRN 2 wrote:

BWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

If there is anything more pathetic than a nominally educated Christer....well...there isn't. 'Cept an actual devout Mormon. Seriously, if you idiots so despise the world and all its inherent evil...why not split? Go meet Jesus and praise him forever. GO!
first, i didnt say it. greenleaf did. and he's a hell of a lot more educated than i.

second, you are free to present your credentials here.




felix, i'm checking out the 'supernatural' thing. i should be back tomorrow with some thoughts.
User avatar
poptart
Quitty McQuitface
Posts: 15211
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:45 pm

Post by poptart »

Sincerely,

Carlos Santana
G.O.
Elwood
Posts: 513
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:52 pm
Location: germantown, MD

Post by G.O. »

poptart wrote:Sincerely,

Carlos Santana
i liked dctalks version better. :D



sorry for slacking, felix. busy today. i'll be back tomorrow. and i think i mean i this time...
User avatar
The Whistle Is Screaming
Left-handed monkey wrench
Posts: 2880
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:24 pm
Location: Eat Me Luther, Eat Me!

Post by The Whistle Is Screaming »

mvscal wrote:
poptart wrote:Man is also created in God's image.
Image
Are you saying that God looks like some serious cleavage? Rack!

btw, nice find under the "Where are they now" heading, Dr. Bob has really let himself go.
Ingse Bodil wrote:rich jews aren't the same as real jews, though, right?
Post Reply