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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:03 am
by GreginPG
Left Seater wrote:Greg,
Excellent shots there. I stand corrected as we also looked at these earlier this week in our officials meeting. I agree the ball should be between the 1 and 2 and without an overhead shot we will never know.
Let me also point out a few things about the official in that view. As 11 is nearing the endzone you clearly see the HL still standing on or near the two yardline. He should have been standing at the goalline, having moved there asap as the ball was snapped. Had he done that he would have been in perfect position to look down the sideline and get an accurate spot. Instead he was moving with 11 and as such started to raise his arms to signal TD before seeing the ball fly out.
Now to set the record straight on fumbles going out of bounds. In all cases the clock stops. On a fumble that goes backwards (towards the fumbler's endzone) from the spot of the fumble is next put in play at the point at which it crossed the sideline. A fumble that goes out of bounds forward of where it was fumbled is next put in play at the spot of the fumble. In the case of the backwards fumble, the clock is not started until it is put in play by a snap. For a forward fumble the clock is started when the referee marks the ball ready for play (ie he starts the 25 second clock). The officials got it correct in this game.
Greg, do you have a shot of where the ball was snapped on 11's TD? Was it really at the one or was it just off the goalline as it seemed live?
I don't have a shot of that. Initially the ball was placed at about the half yard line but was moved back to the one before play was whistled back in.
There is a shot floating around somewhere that shows where Leinart was at the point he lost the ball. I'll see if I can hunt that one down.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:22 am
by Left Seater
The point at which 11 looses the ball isn't really relivant to anything. That is just the spot of the fumble and nothing else.
Am I missing where you were going?
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:34 am
by GreginPG
Left Seater wrote:The point at which 11 looses the ball isn't really relivant to anything. That is just the spot of the fumble and nothing else.
Am I missing where you were going?
Nope, it was just something that I saw after posting those other photos I came across. I believe it just further confirms that the spot was pretty damn close to accurate when they placed the ball on the one. I doubt that had replay been in use that they could have come up with anything more conclusive. The only thing replay
could have done was add about 3 more seconds to the clock.
I appreciate your thoughts on this. It's always interesting to hear things from an official's perspective.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:43 am
by Shawn Marion
So the spike the ball motions and the hurry up were a complete fakeout?
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:26 am
by Left Seater
Greg I totally agree that replay would have not changed anything on this play/placement.
I really don't have a problem with the time on this. We can't use the TV clock as there's is not in sinc with the game clock. Often the TV clock is a few seconds behind the game clock so that they can stop it at the time the game clock is stopped. 7 or 10 makes little difference in this case. And there easily could have been 7 seconds on the game clock when one of the other officials looked up at the clock.
I also agree that we never see "aiding the runner" called. Is it illegal per the rule book? Yes. Will I ever call it? No, because I know that if I do I can kiss my schedule goodbye. Same as hurdling. It is illegal for the ballcarrier to hurdle over another player. As such I would rather see these rules removed from the book. I don't think we should have rules that we don't enforce. If we aren't going to call them, let's remove them.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:46 am
by SoCalTrjn
Shawn Marion wrote:So the spike the ball motions and the hurry up were a complete fakeout?
Carroll said in the press conference that when he was coach of the Jets Dan Marino did that at the end of the game and lead the Dolphins to a win at the Meadowlands. He said he was hoping that "Charlie" would have seen him motioning for the clock play and perhaps NDs defense wouldnt get set
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:01 am
by Shawn Marion
SoCalTrjn wrote:Shawn Marion wrote:So the spike the ball motions and the hurry up were a complete fakeout?
Carroll said in the press conference that when he was coach of the Jets Dan Marino did that at the end of the game and lead the Dolphins to a win at the Meadowlands. He said he was hoping that "Charlie" would have seen him motioning for the clock play and perhaps NDs defense wouldnt get set
Bernie Kosar designed the fake spike play, but in that case the clock was running.
There is no reason whatsoever to spike the ball on a play where the clock is stopped.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:35 pm
by Killian
The funny thing is that the clock was stopped because of the ball going out of bounds, so a spike is not needed.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:24 pm
by Left Seater
Exactly Killian! Here is an excellent example where rules knowledge can help or hurt a coach. Weis or one of his many assistants should have recognized that the clock was stopped and not going to start until the snap. Weis himself knew exactly what was up because he spoke directly to the referee himself as time was put back on the clock.
In any event his defense stopped 11's initial dive, but not the second effort.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:47 pm
by Shawn Marion
Left Seater wrote:Exactly Killian! Here is an excellent example where rules knowledge can help or hurt a coach. Weis or one of his many assistants should have recognized that the clock was stopped and not going to start until the snap. Weis himself knew exactly what was up because he spoke directly to the referee himself as time was put back on the clock.
In any event his defense stopped 11's initial dive, but not the second effort.
This is why I was confused, especially during the game.
First, Leinart is stopped. Second, there is a fumble OOB. Third, the clock runs out. Fourth, huge clusterfuck with Weis on the field forever. Finally, USC is running a quick hurry up and throwing up spike the ball motions.
I'm thinking "why is SC spiking it, is the clock going to run when the ball is placed?" Furthermore, shouldn't the ND coaches have known that the ball was dead? Just call a timeout and set your D.