T1B

Vito Corleone wrote:Van you moron why don't you do a little research on what NFL scouts think of VY before opening your dick hole and spouting this stupid crap.

Right now Vince is considered the 3rd best player in the game and if he were to come out this year he would be a top 5 pick.

Just because he is not a traditional drop back QB does not mean he will not be a QB.

You might recognize this if your lips weren't firmly wrapped around Leinarts piss tube.

I personally hate all this Vince for Heisman talk cause if he wins the damn thing he is more likely to leave early for the NFL and I want him to stick around for one more year.

Yes Reggie Bush is a great back and Leinart is a great QB but Vince is both combined thats why he is better. And if he were a WR he probably would be the best at that as well.

I have never seen a freak him him in my life. And this is why I'm now pimping Bush for the Heisman, cause I'm hoping he sticks around for one more year.

Vito, let's check back in three years and see where (or even if) VY is playing.

He's not going to do squat in the NFL. He doesn't have an NFL QB's throwing/savvy ability and he doesn't have Michael Vick's running ability, and even MV's sell by date might be coming up pretty soon here...

In the meantime you just keep getting all moist over watching the main beneficiary of an overpowering team lining up and doing whatever he wants against overmatched teams like Okie State...

Funny thing, there. I guarantee you that whenever VY leaves Texas his replacement at QB (whoever it is) is going to be putting up similar numbers by his second season of being at the controls.

It's Texas.

Unless you're MV the NFL doesn't allow for eighty yard untouched TD runs from its QB's.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:Sounds like you're splitting hairs between "most talented" and "best player". When I say most talented, I really do mean best player.

Well, I am splitting hairs. They are not interchangeable.

Bush may not see the ball as much as Vince, but he impacts the game on more levels, as he plays MULTIPLE positions.

Bush doesn't see the ball as much a Young because Young is a qb and touches it on every offensive play. That's not going to count against him.

Secondly, given that he's not touching the ball on every play because he is not the quarterback and given further that his touches are reduced because SC has so many weapons...how does Rush impact the game on so many levels?

Van wrote: Perhaps Young just happens to play QB in the Big XII against horrible competition, and perhaps the system and the position in which he plays has him handling the ball on every play, up to and including most rushing plays, and maybe that might account for his numbers?

Bush lines up as a tailback, a split back, a wide reciever, a punt returner and a kick returner...and he's very possibly the best in the nation at each of these positions. Perhaps Reggie Bush is just a bit more talented and better player than Vince Young, a guy who'll most likely be playing in the CFL within three years...

:roll:

Christ...

You have written some stupid shit about a player that you know nothing about. The guy put his team on his back and led them to victory. Rushing for 269 yards is huge. He had to because he lost his top 3 RB's to injury. Jamaal Chalres went out early, came back twice and left for good in the 3rd. Selvin Young hurt his ankle and didn't play in the 3rd or 4th quarters. Chirs Oboyangoda? the 3rd stringer played 6 downs and left due to injury. He also lost his starting left tackle. So that fact that he passed for 230+ and ran for 260+ says a lot.

And if you think that the PAC 10 is superior to the Big XII you are high. There are 2 good teams in the Pac-10. USC and UCLA. Texas is pretty good and so is Texas Tech. Last time I looked, Tech had 'bode over Cal. OU is playing well, so is Colorado. Who are the other power houses in the Pac-10? Oregon? OSU? Washington? WAZZU? Stanford? The only other team worth a squirt of piss is ASU. Colorado would beat them easily. Please let the grown talk about football and you need to go back to the toy box and play with Raggedy Ann.

Vince will be a first round draft pick. He will play QB in the NFL.

DrDetroit wrote:

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:Sounds like you're splitting hairs between "most talented" and "best player". When I say most talented, I really do mean best player.

Well, I am splitting hairs. They are not interchangeable.

Bush may not see the ball as much as Vince, but he impacts the game on more levels, as he plays MULTIPLE positions.

Bush doesn't see the ball as much a Young because Young is a qb and touches it on every offensive play. That's not going to count against him.

Secondly, given that he's not touching the ball on every play because he is not the quarterback and given further that his touches are reduced because SC has so many weapons...how does Rush impact the game on so many levels?

If you run the ball, catch the ball, block, return kicks, return punts, and you do all those things well...how is that NOT impacting the game on multiple levels?

DrD wrote:So conjecture and speculation have replaced actual performances in determining the Heisman?

Actual performance on the field?

Would Total Yards and Yards Per Touch be legitimate measures of actual performance? I think they would...

Reggie has the stats too, but like Mgo was saying, just use your eyes. Reggie is the one true game breaker playing in CF right now. He's the scariest player in CF and it's not just what he can potentially do, it's what he keeps doing.

Beyond all that, if it weren't for Reggie Bush's existence taking his votes Matt Leinart would already have this Heisman locked up. Remove Bush from the equation and Leinart's stats and big game poise, balls, leadership and clutch performances would've made this year's Heisman a slam dunk...

Young is just the poster boy for this year's Big XII glamour team. Matt Leinart has been the trigger for the team that hasn't lost a game in years, a team that has relied on him to come up with the biggest performances in the biggest games.

And still the Heisman will (and has to) go to Bush, unless Bush falls flat on his face against Cal and UCLA.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote: If you run the ball, catch the ball, block, return kicks, return punts, and you do all those things well...how is that NOT impacting the game on multiple levels?

Sure, he impacts the game across multiple positions.

Harvdog wrote:Vince will be a first round draft pick. He will play QB in the NFL.

Would you bet your house on it?

Also, when you say he'll play QB in the NFL, okay, how well, and for how long?

Assuming he gets drafted well he'll hopefully get to carry a clipboard for a year or two so that'll extend his NFL shelf life. That being the case, I'll move my CFL prediction for him from three years to five years.

I sure like my chances of being right more than I bet you like the chances of VY ever being a legitimate NFL QB...

Besides, Matt Leinart is the better CF QB anyway so never mind Reggie Bush. VY doesn't deserve the Heisman even at his own position. Leinart's done more, and for a longer period of time, and in more important games.

Not that it matters in this debate but he'll also be drafted ahead of VY and he WILL start as a QB in the NFL, very soon.

Van wrote:Actual performance on the field?

Would Total Yards and Yards Per Touch be legitimate measures of actual performance? I think they would...

Reggie has the stats too, but like Mgo was saying, just use your eyes. Reggie is the one true game breaker playing in CF right now. He's the scariest player in CF and it's not just what he can potentially do, it's what he keeps doing.

After watching Young last night I'd disagree with you. He broke that game wide open. He carried that game. He carries that team week in and week out.

USC would still without Bush, the same cannot be said re: Texas and Young.

Beyond all that, if it weren't for Reggie Bush's existence taking his votes Matt Leinart would already have this Heisman locked up. Remove Bush from the equation and Leinart's stats and big game poise, balls, leadership and clutch performances would've made this year's Heisman a slam dunk...

I'd agree somewhat with that...which necessarily means that Bush ain't even the best player on that team.

Young is just the poster boy for this year's Big XII glamour team. Matt Leinart has been the trigger for the team that hasn't lost a game in years, a team that has relied on him to come up with the biggest performances in the biggest games.

Yet another reason that Bush should not be a leading Heisman candidate.

And still the Heisman will (and has to) go to Bush, unless Bush falls flat on his face against Cal and UCLA.

Bwaahahahahaaaaa!!!

Simply because of the conjecture...that's all that's there.

So, Van, we are in agreement, then...Bush is no longer the Heisman candidate. At least Leinart is ahead of him in that candidacy?

DrD, Total Yards and Yards Per Touch are not matters of conjecture.

Going into this week Reggie Bush was leading the nation in Total Yards, which is the ultimate measure of offensive performance.

He's also scored more than a few TDs, some of which were, errr, rather spectacular, wouldn't you say?

DrDetroit wrote:So, Van, we are in agreement, then...Bush is no longer the Heisman candidate. At least Leinart is ahead of him in that candidacy?

Not at all. The Heisman is Bush's to lose.

You have to be realistic and factor in Heisman Politics, and this season those politics all point to Reggie Bush.

Van wrote:DrD, Total Yards and Yards Per Touch are not matters of conjecture.

Going into this week Reggie Bush was leading the nation in Total Yards, which is the ultimate measure of offensive performance.

He's also scored more than a few TDs, some of which were, errr, rather spectacular, wouldn't you say?

Talent and the discussion of who possesses more of it is a matter on conjecture. And that's what I was talking as you know full well, Van. This seems to be a recurring theme in this forum.

Ultimate measure of offensive performance? That's fair, though I wouldn't agree.

And, yes, there certainly have been many spectacular plays.

Nonetheless, I think Saturday's performance by Young was extraordinary and certainly put Young ahead of Bush in the Heisman race.

Van wrote:
He's already being compared to LaDanian Tomlinson as a bonafide NFL star.

He's a sure thing!

sin,
blair thomas, curtis enis, ki-jana carter,lawrence phillips, rasaan salaam, sammie smith

Also, on a more serious note, Leinert and Bush will split many votes making it difficult on both.

T REX wrote:

Van wrote:
He's already being compared to LaDanian Tomlinson as a bonafide NFL star.

He's a sure thing!

sin,
blair thomas, curtis enis, ki-jana carter,lawrence phillips, rasaan salaam, sammie smith

Point taken but none of those guys had Bush's style. Most of those failed NFL guys were straight ahead backs who relied on huge holes opened by their dominant offensive lines.

The Nebraska Syndrome...

Bush tends to create yards on his own that nobody else in CF can create. This ability will be at a premium in the NFL, where the defenses aren't completely overmatched the way they so often are in college.

T REX wrote:Also, on a more serious note, Leinert and Bush will split many votes making it difficult on both.

No doubt about that.

Van wrote:
Point taken but

But what? It is still a reach to say that about anyone. Yes, the talent is there. Yes, he looks great in college. It means nothing till he actually does produce. To compare him to LT is laughable.

When the point is simply projected performance the discussion is definitely not one of absolutes but it's also not laughable.

While Bush is very frequently being compared to LT nobody's comparing VY to Joe Montana or even Steve Young, is the point.

It's all "a reach" when one bad twist of fate can ruin an ACL and an entire career but obviously people still engage in discussions about projected future performance.

What else is the NFL Draft if not the culmination of those "laughable" discussions?

Van you are the dumbest POS I have read on this board, congrats for officially passing TRex, Jon and every other poster.

Reggie Bush the greatest CF player ever?

Ever hear of Barry Saunders, Bo Jackson, hell Bush may not be the best runningback in the game today. There are and have been lots of guys do what he does. He is fast but not as fast as Rocket Ishmal was, or Bo Jackson was. He is strong but not as strong as Bo Jackson or Adrian Peterson or Ricky Williams. He can catch but so could warrick Dunn.

Before you wrap your mouth around Leinart again take a good look at guys like Ryan Leaf and Todd Maranovich they had the same all-world ability that Leinart has. Same with guys like Marc Wilson and many many others. All-world ability doesn't guarantee success in the NFL. Especially when you can hide you difficiencies behind the talent USC has.

You need to take a note from other USC fans who won't come to your aid, you keep talking out of your ass, just like idiot Lakerfans who keep slobbering on Kobe's knob. Leinart is great because he has Bush next to him and Bush is great because he has Leinart next to him. When a defense keys on one the other can go off, its a nice problem to have but alone neither would be even mentioned as a Heisman candidate.

BTW dumbass TBS did a little piece on duel threat QBs and they compared Steve Young, Randall cunningham, Michael Vick and Vince Young and they all said that Vince was better than them all. He is Bigger, stronger, faster and a better runner than all the rest.

So yes he will play QB on the next level and he will probably have a quicker impact than Leinart will.

Don't forget about Mike Nugent...!

Also Reggie Bush isn't even the best player in the PAC 10...that goes to all the KAL guys

Sin,

mTool


who gives a rats ass? as long as Archie's record stays in tact I don't care who wins the fucking Heisman...if TG2 would have started the year like he has played the last couple of games perhaps his name would be mentioned...?

I would say right now...IMHO

tie Bush/Young
Linehert
Drew
AJ Hawk/PP - yeah I said it pile on...

The arguments in this thread have shifted beyond what are necessary, and I'm guilty of that as well.

I am not alongside a Van here in believing Heisman Trophy day will be a sham if Bush does not win. I think VY is deserving of it, just A) not MORE deserving of it and B) not more deserving of it based on his play in the 2nd half of a single football game against one of the worst teams in the Big 12. You (Drd) did in fact imply Bush was the leader UNTIL Saturday's game, that would essentially, and logically, mean that your reasoning to leap frog VY ahead of Bush had to do solely with the 2nd half play against Okie State. On top of that, you seem to agree that it was not very impressive VY was even in that situation to begin with, yet his ability to bail himself, and his team out of a game they should have controlled for 4 quarters was/is more impressive than dominating the game from start to finish. That is where I disagree with you. I'll bet if VY only put up steady but good numbers, but dominated OK State all game long, you wouldn't have posted this thread. Do you believe you still would have?

Faster, and a better runner than Michael Vick?

You're on crack.

Besides, the QB position in the NFL is primarily a throwing/decision making position, at least if your team hopes to have any late season success. Vince Young is not and probably never will be an NFL caliber thrower/decision maker and that's why Matt Leinart will get drafted ahead of him and be a starting NFL QB for a long time while VY will end up in the CFL with all the other CF running backs disguised as QBs.

Again, let's see who's still playing QB in the NFL five years from now, Leinart or Young...

Oh, and speaking of Leinart and Bush making life easy for eath other you forgot about Lendale White, Dominick Byrd, Dwayne Jarrett and the most efficient offensive line in CF also making life easier for 'em.

You'll be reminded of 'em all though on January 4th when they all once again team together to hang another 50 spot on the poor unfortunates who were picked to be their sacrifical lambs...

Mgo wrote:I am not alongside a Van here in believing Heisman Trophy day will be a sham if Bush does not win.

I never said any such thing and I don't believe it'll be any more of a sham than it always is, regardless of who wins it.

It's a nearly meaningless award, no matter who gets it.

Van wrote:

Mgo wrote:I am not alongside a Van here in believing Heisman Trophy day will be a sham if Bush does not win.

I never said any such thing and I don't believe it'll be any more of a sham than it always is, regardless of who wins it.

It's a nearly meaningless award, no matter who gets it.

Didn't mean to put words in your mouth...nevertheless, with a statement like this:

And still the Heisman will (and has to) go to Bush

It seems to me you'd agree that if anyone but Bush won, you'd feel the voters failed. Better choice of words?

Leinart deserves to win the award. W/ out him USC wont go undefeated. The same cant be said for Young b/c if they plau USC he cant beat Leinart.

Cicero wrote:Leinart deserves to win the award. W/ out him USC wont go undefeated. The same cant be said for Young b/c if they plau USC he cant beat Leinart.

I can hardly understand this post, but I assume you mean that Leinart should win because with out him, USC wouldn't be undefeated. Well, the same can be said for Young. Without him, they likely wouldn't have won either OSU game. Leinart would only "deserve" to win the award because of his play, and Bush is out performing him. In USC's two closest games, Leinart didn't have a TD pass while Bush went wild on the ground.

It's a two horse race right now between Bush and Young.

Killian, Cicero's post wasn't difficult to understand, wtf was your problem with it. Grammar nazi, much? You still got the jist of his thought, didn't you?

MGo - I recognized that most people were hanging Bush at the top of the Heisman race. I didn't. Hence, my thought was that Saturday's performance by Young was good enough to merit at least a tie as of right now. Hence, the title of my thread.

Had Young looked merely human against Ok St, you're right, I probably wouldn't have posted this. Granted, I acknowledged Van's point about Young's first half as a "fair point." However, that is what it is...a fair point. On the other hand, despite struggling and his team struggling, Young came out in the second half and rallied his team to a great comeback victory. Sure, he could have gone out and steadily beaten Ok St, but he didn't. He faced a large half-time deficit and overcame it in spectacular fashion. I think that's an extraordinary effort. not only did he overcome his own struggles, but he then proceeded to hang up over 500 yards total for the game.

So while I concede that Texas' first half struggles can be partly blamed on Young, he came back, rallied his team, and had a phenomenal game.

I understand. I couldn't disagree more, but I understand.

DrDetroit wrote:Killian, Cicero's post wasn't difficult to understand, wtf was your problem with it. Grammar nazi, much? You still got the jist of his thought, didn't you?

DrDetroit, overused internet phrases, much?

Worry less about what I say and to whom I say it, and worry more about the subject matter and flow of this forum.

Let's see how good Leinart would be without Bush, White and whoever is the #3 RB at USC. Take away his starting left tackle too. Let's see him put 500 yards of offense. Wouldn't happen.

Van is such a hater. He only sees things athat happen in So Cal. When you see the burnt orange up close on the 4th, you will be a believer.

I agree with Killian...

Mgo, the reason I say Bush "has to win" (barring the unforeseen against Cal and UCLA) is based on my knowledge of the history of the award and the politics that go into selecting the winner.

Historically, the DAC doesn't like to give the award to the same guy twice, not if there's any other seemingly equally viable candidate. This year, Reggie Bush is much more than a "viable candidate" and he's come up very big in SC's biggest games this year.

Also, the notion of giving the award to a USC QB three out of the past four years isn't going to sit well with too many voters.

So, all in all, I can't see Leinart getting the nod this time when the perception is out there that he's not the best player on his own team. (Not that that's ever stopped many an undeserving QB from getting the award though on countless other occasions... :roll: )

I just think it's obvious that Reggie's the more suitable "glamour pick" over Leinart, so barring any flame out by Bush it's not going to go to Leinart this time.

That leaves it down to Bush vs Young and Young has no opportunities left to impress anybody while Bush still has Cal and especially UCLA.

Young's performance against Okie State was a two edged sword. His miscues were what put Texas in a hole in the first place against a dogshit team and his plays in the second half were basically straight up gimmes. He ran untouched and didn't have to do anything except avoid falling down.

Not exactly the sort of highlight reel stuff Bush offers up just about every week, and often two to three times every week. All Young managed in the second half against Okie State was to avoid falling off the Heisman map. He didn't really elevate himself, he just prevented a catastrophe and kept himself alive.

There's also the basic fact that Bush is just plain perceived as being the best player in the country by most people not named Vito...

So, the award is Bush's to lose. If he wins it, fine. The only way he could lose it at this point is to have a couple of bad games, in which case Leinart could conceiveably vault back on top if he does something epic against UCLA...

Vince Young's candidacy is simply at the mercy of Reggie Bush's remaining performances. Young is not going to win over any more voters by running roughshod over any more overrated Big XII teams this year, but Bush could lose some voters if he stinks it up from here on out...

Killian wrote:

DrDetroit wrote:Killian, Cicero's post wasn't difficult to understand, wtf was your problem with it. Grammar nazi, much? You still got the jist of his thought, didn't you?

DrDetroit, overused internet phrases, much?

Worry less about what I say and to whom I say it, and worry more about the subject matter and flow of this forum.

Nah, I don't think so. Cicero's point was quite clear. You pulled the grammar nazi bullshit card. I called you on it. Sack up and just move on.

He didn't really elevate himself, he just prevented a catastrophe and kept himself alive.

Very good choice of words. This is precisely why I disagreed with Doc to begin with.

DrDetroit wrote:Nah, I don't think so. Cicero's point was quite clear. You pulled the grammar nazi bullshit card. I called you on it. Sack up and just move on.

Nah, I don't think so. This forum has a bit of a history that you obviously don't know and I called you on it. So sack up and just move on. This would fall under the "read more, post less" mantra.

Van wrote:This year, Reggie Bush is much more than a "viable candidate" and he's come up very big in SC's biggest games this year.

Which games were those?

So, all in all, I can't see Leinart getting the nod this time when the perception is out there that he's not the best player on his own team. (Not that that's ever stopped many an undeserving QB from getting the award though on countless other occasions... :roll: )

Half-full/half-empty argument because there are many out there that believe that Bush is not the best player on his own team.

I just think it's obvious that Reggie's the more suitable "glamour pick" over Leinart, so barring any flame out by Bush it's not going to go to Leinart this time.

Absurd, considering that without Leinart we know that USC would not be what they are. On the flip side, it is very possible that USC would be where they are without Bush.

Young's performance against Okie State was a two edged sword. His miscues were what put Texas in a hole in the first place against a dogshit team and his plays in the second half were basically straight up gimmes. He ran untouched and didn't have to do anything except avoid falling down.

Untouched on that pump-fake because he jocked the defender in front of him then simply out ran the rest. Not bad.

Not exactly the sort of highlight reel stuff Bush offers up just about every week, and often two to three times every week. All Young managed in the second half against Okie State was to avoid falling off the Heisman map. He didn't really elevate himself, he just prevented a catastrophe and kept himself alive.

Nonsense. You don't put up 500 yards by yourself to avoid falling off the table.

There's also the basic fact that Bush is just plain perceived as being the best player in the country by most people not named Vito...

Most people? You mean some people. And many other who believe Young is. And still many more who believe that about several others.

Vince Young's candidacy is simply at the mercy of Reggie Bush's remaining performances. Young is not going to win over any more voters by running roughshod over any more overrated Big XII teams this year, but Bush could lose some voters if he stinks it up from here on out...

Curious as I don't know much about UCLA...but are they really that good? What has their schedule been like?

Harvdog wrote:Let's see how good Leinart would be without Bush, White and whoever is the #3 RB at USC. Take away his starting left tackle too. Let's see him put 500 yards of offense. Wouldn't happen.

Van is such a hater. He only sees things athat happen in So Cal. When you see the burnt orange up close on the 4th, you will be a believer.

Against garbage like Okie St Leinart is never gong to find himself down 19 due to his own miscues.

Leinart could throw for 500 all day long against Okie St if Pete just let him. You know it, I know it and so does everybody else.

Could he do it without his other players? Of course not.

Could Young run unmolested for 80 yeards and throw to receivers so wide open that even he couldn't miss 'em, were it not for the fact that his offensive teammates completely overmatched Okie State's? Of course not.

Think Leinart won't still be able to execute smart decisions along the way to throwing for 300 and three TDs against Texas, Va Tech or anybody else come Rose Bowl time? Of course he will.

Think Young is going to run unmolested and throw at will to endlessly wide open receivers against Va Tech or USC come bowl season? Of course not. What he will most likely do is throw a key pick and/or commit a key fumble when he's faced with the dual pressures of a defense that can stare down his offense and deal with it on equal terms and an opposing offense that can more than match his own offense.

Meanwhile, as long as Leinart plays for USC he's never going to encounter a defense that can play with his offense on anything remotely resembling equal terms. USC will score as much as they want against anybody just as long as they don't beat themselves...and in the biggest games nobody plays more error free football than USC. They do not beat themselves when the stakes are highest.

Vince Young has only played a few truly big games in his career, and he's lost a couple of 'em already, and not one of 'em was as big of a game as some of the games Matt Leinart has already played in and dominated.

Nonsense. You don't put up 500 yards by yourself to avoid falling off the table.

You also don't put up 500 yards without help from the other team rolling over. It was a two way street.

DrDetroit wrote: Absurd, considering that without Leinart we know that USC would not be what they are.

Like how USC wouldn't be the same in 2003 after Palmer graduated, and an untested redshirt soph who had never thrown a pass in college had to take over?

Killian wrote:

DrDetroit wrote: Absurd, considering that without Leinart we know that USC would not be what they are.

Like how USC wouldn't be the same in 2003 after Palmer graduated, and an untested redshirt soph who had never thrown a pass in college had to take over?

Yeah, Leinart is that good...you disagree?