YOUR Top 5 Heisman List: Wk Ending 11/5

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:29 pm

Rack Fu wrote:I'm not sure that Leinart is capable of single-handedly beating another team.

I'll answer your doubts for you then.

No, he's not. No player in the history of football was ever capable of beating another team single handedly. Stick Vince Young on Baylor and Baylor still gets their heads handed to them.

Young has done that several times.

Young has never done it even once. Young's offensive line gave him all day to throw and freeway wide lanes in which to run. Young is one component within a team game and his team is far more dominant than he is as an individual player.

Texas' offense is not going to fall off the map next year if Young isn't there. It'll look pretty much the same as this year's offense and they'll continue to crush the same teams they're crushing now.

They'll likely be a little less efficient due to lack of experience, but that's about it.

Is Matt Leinart a better QB than Vince Young? Without question, not even close. That said, Leinart isn't half the athlete that Young is.

Stupid criteria. If "quality of athlete" were the criteria no QB other than Michael Vick would've ever won the Heisman. Besides, if "quality of athlete" is the criteria just give it to Bush and let's be done with this.

Young is the most dangerous player in CFB.

Hardly. Reggie Bush is more explosive and more dangerous and he does more things. In addition to running the ball he also catches passes from the backfield, from the slot position and from the wide out position. He returns punts. He returns kicks. He's thrown a TD pass.

Young, being the QB, he just gets to handle the ball on every play. If Reggie Bush got to handle the ball every play the way Young does the length of his highlight reel would rival "Gone With The Wind".

See You Next Wednesday · Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:26 pm

1. Bush
2. Young
3. Leinert
4. Williams
5. Basanez

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:52 am

Van wrote:
Rack Fu wrote:I'm not sure that Leinart is capable of single-handedly beating another team.
I'll answer your doubts for you then.

No, he's not. No player in the history of football was ever capable of beating another team single handedly. Stick Vince Young on Baylor and Baylor still gets their heads handed to them.

Young has done that several times.
Young has never done it even once. Young's offensive line gave him all day to throw and freeway wide lanes in which to run. Young is one component within a team game and his team is far more dominant than he is as an individual player.

I wasn't speaking literally, dumbass.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:45 am

Then what was your point in saying Young is capable of single handedly beating another team? (Single handedly, but with lots of help??)

You went out of your way to say it just like that, and then you specified that Young not only can do it, he's done it several times. You also said you don't think Leinart is capable of doing it.

So, what other point are you trying to make, that you really didn't mean to make?

Face it, that was just a stupid thing to say.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:11 am

Sorry, not like's it's a sports cliche or anything.

X 1,000,000

You knew exactly what I was saying, semantic twat.

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:46 pm

Cliche or not, it's still ridiculous. Leinart "single handedly" beats teams with his arm and his brain every bit as much as Young does with his legs and his arm...which is to say, never, in the case of either guy.

In basketball, sure, to some degree. Baseball too, possibly, if the pitcher also drives in his own run support.

QBs simply get way too much credit/blame in football. They're simply not as important as the offensive and defensive lines. That's where games are won and lost, with each of those two units, "single handedly"...

Btw, Rack Fu, I haven't talked to you in a fairly long while. Sorry if I'm way behind the times but did you ever finish up and get into the FBI? How's that going?

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:45 am

Van wrote: Btw, Rack Fu, I haven't talked to you in a fairly long while. Sorry if I'm way behind the times but did you ever finish up and get into the FBI? How's that going?

Been an Agent going on three years now. Best job in the world.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:52 am

Shoalzie wrote:1. Young
2. Leinart
3. Bush
4. Robinson
5. Quinn

No change for next week.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:13 pm

1 Leinart
2 Young
3 Bush
4 Robinson
5 Olson

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:32 am

I said before that it's Bush's to lose, and that's precisely what he's doing...

Leinart
Young
Bush

Jimmy Medalions · Post by **Jimmy Medalions** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:31 am

Leinart

Young
Bush

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am

Maybe Bush is setting himself up to win it next year

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:38 pm

^^^^

Trojan fan's wet dream. :D

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:10 pm

Leinart was expected by everybody to go to the NFL after his junior year.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:14 pm

SoCalTrjn wrote:Leinart was expected by everybody to go to the NFL after his junior year.

Leinart came back because his elbow was blown and everyone in the NFL knew it. His only choice was to come back. I highly doubt that's the case for Reggie.

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:27 pm

that blown elbow looked pretty good int he Orange Bowl, the Hernia surgery he had probably had more to do with him not declaring for the draft than the tendenitis.
There hasnt been any report from anyone that Bush was going to go pro, its all been speculation by people not in the Trojan family, people who would rather see him go. Reggie has said that he wont even think about it until after the season is over and then he is going to talk to people at SC and his family, Matt Leinart being "one of the people" he will "listen to most"
Youd have to assume that reggie is going to have more fun at SC next year than he would have in Minnesota or Houston or whoever is projected to be so bad that they will be the one able to buy him.
I hate pro football, Id much rather watch a game of kids playing for the team they picked instead of a game full of guys playing for teams that "own their rights"

Jimmy Medalions · Post by **Jimmy Medalions** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:32 pm

Vince Young will win the Heisman, btw.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:49 am

It's starting to look like the award is Vince's to lose. Damn this better not change his plans to come back or I will be pissed.

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:13 am

theres about the same interest in Vince Young as an NFL QB as there was for Eric Crouch as an NFL QB

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:32 pm

SoCalTrjn wrote:that blown elbow looked pretty good int he Orange Bowl, the Hernia surgery he had probably had more to do with him not declaring for the draft than the tendenitis.
There hasnt been any report from anyone that Bush was going to go pro, its all been speculation by people not in the Trojan family, people who would rather see him go. Reggie has said that he wont even think about it until after the season is over and then he is going to talk to people at SC and his family, Matt Leinart being "one of the people" he will "listen to most"
Youd have to assume that reggie is going to have more fun at SC next year than he would have in Minnesota or Houston or whoever is projected to be so bad that they will be the one able to buy him.
I hate pro football, Id much rather watch a game of kids playing for the team they picked instead of a game full of guys playing for teams that "own their rights"

Hernia surgery requires you to be out 4-6 weeks. Maybe 8 tops. If it had been the hernia, Leinart would have been ready by March and could have had personal workouts at that time. His elbow, required him to miss all of spring ball. Carroll stated it was his elbow, and before the ND/USC game Weis was interviewed and asked about how Leinart coming back for his 5th year was a good thing. Weis agreed, but said that he was almost forced to come back because his elbow was shot and everyone in the NFL knew it was.

And as for Bush, I'm sure it's all speculation from "people not in the Trojan family" as much as the speculation about Chow and Caroll wasn't from "people in the Trojan family". Reggie hasn't denied it, and very rarely do running backs come back for their last season when they know they are going to be a top 3-5 pick.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:10 pm

SoCalTrjn wrote:theres about the same interest in Vince Young as an NFL QB as there was for Eric Crouch as an NFL QB

Funny I don't remember seeing Crouch ranked as the #3 overall prospect in the draft? I've seen several scouting reports that have Vince ranked from 3 to 15 in the draft.

Here are a few links to chew on

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/sub/rankings.html
http://www.draftinsiders.com/3.html
http://www.draftboardinsider.com/resources/100.html

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:11 pm

Young will be a Top pick, but not as a QB. He is a sick athlete. I havent seen too many guys w/ his size (6-5, 225) do the things he can do.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:18 pm

Cicero wrote:Young will be a Top pick, but not as a QB. He is a sick athlete. I havent seen too many guys w/ his size (6-5, 225) do the things he can do.

If he's drafted, which he will be, it will be as a QB. He's not going to pull a Matt Jones and go to the combine as a WR. As ill-advised as the pick will be, he will be taken as a quarterback.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:02 pm

Killian wrote:
Cicero wrote:Young will be a Top pick, but not as a QB. He is a sick athlete. I havent seen too many guys w/ his size (6-5, 225) do the things he can do.
If he's drafted, which he will be, it will be as a QB. He's not going to pull a Matt Jones and go to the combine as a WR. As ill-advised as the pick will be, he will be taken as a quarterback.

I can say in all honesty that I could care less about the NFL but there is no way you or anyone can say that picking Young as a QB would be ill-advised. He has a greater upside than any other QB out there. He has more tools to work with than anyone else and he is still growing in his development.

His biggest attribute is a Jordanesque ability to will his team to victory, the last QB I've seen with this ability was Montana, execpt he wasn't 6'5 235 and had the ability to run like a receiver. Vince has the ability to rewrite the QB position at all levels.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:20 pm

Vito Corleone wrote:I can say in all honesty that I could care less about the NFL but there is no way you or anyone can say that picking Young as a QB would be ill-advised. He has a greater upside than any other QB out there. He has more tools to work with than anyone else and he is still growing in his development.

His biggest attribute is a Jordanesque ability to will his team to victory, the last QB I've seen with this ability was Montana, execpt he wasn't 6'5 235 and had the ability to run like a receiver. Vince has the ability to rewrite the QB position at all levels.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not say he has any type of "Jordanesque" ability to will his team to victory just yet. He's put together one solid season. He's made a few clutch throws. He's a solid player. But upside doesn't do shit to win games in the NFL. His biggest attribute is his ability to run. And again, that shouldn't get him drafted. Michael Vick was an ill-advised draft pick because it is going to take him a long time if he develops into an NFL quality QB in terms of throwing, if at all. Same with Young.

Run first QB's are ill-advised draft picks. There's a reason Tommie Frazier and Tony Rice weren't NFL draft picks. Young will get drafted, but I think he will have a similar career arc as Vick. Both will play, neither will be an effective passer, and teams will fall all over them because of their "upside", but neither will ever win a Super Bowl.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:59 pm

Exactly when has Vince Young ever had to pull a Jordan in order to will his team to victory??

Dude's on a team that wins by thirty most every game against mostly dogshit competition. There's not exactly a long list of stirring 4th Quarter comebacks in the biggest of games on Young's resume...

Vince Young...in the same breath as Joe Montana???

Wow.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:17 am

I think that Young will win the Heisman. I also think that Young will be a terrible NFL QB.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:59 am

Van wrote:Exactly when has Vince Young ever had to pull a Jordan in order to will his team to victory??

Dude's on a team that wins by thirty most every game against mostly dogshit competition. There's not exactly a long list of stirring 4th Quarter comebacks in the biggest of games on Young's resume...

Vince Young...in the same breath as Joe Montana???

Wow.

How about the Rose Bowl when Cedric Benson was injured in the first series and Vince basically became the running game. Then when Michigan began to sell out to stop the run he starting moving the chains through the air.

I would say any game where one guy rushes and passes for over 500+ yards would fit the mold as being able to will his team to victory.

Ever think the reason they win by 30 besides a great defense is because Vince opens things up for everyone else. Just like Jordan opened things up for all the other Bulls players. Texas comes into every game with an established running game because of Vince. I have yet to see the defense stop Vince from running without leaving the middle of the field wide open. The real reason Texas was able to throw on OSU is because they had to sell out to stop Vince from running with the ball.

And in case you haven't realized yet Vince can pass and he is already a better passer than Vick. Vick never came close to the numbers that Vince is putting up and this is without a true NFL quality receiver. Vince is in his 2nd year as a starter and has improved steadily over the each season. Everyone talks about his delivery but his accuracy is 1000x better than it was last year and he has never suffered from a weak arm, he probably has the strongest arm in college football.

Make no mistake he will be drafted in the top 10 picks as a QB and will become a great NFL QB, his work ethic, mental toughness and will to win will have nothing less.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:43 am

Make no mistake, Vince Young may never even earn a starting job in the NFL. (Through injuries and attrition he might get a brief sniff at some point but he's so far away from being able to effectively throw and command an offense in the NFL that it ain't even funny...)

He only looks like a project right now. Right now he's nothng but an "athlete". "Athletes" in the NFL are a dime a dozen and they nearly always fail miserably at the QB position.

He's going to look awful once he's on some crappy NFL team whose offensive line can't protect him. Make Vince Young rely on accuracy, touch and decision making and he's going to look awful. Make him have to throw on third and eight to receivers who aren't open by fifteen yards the way they are now and he's going to look awful.

Let Vince Young try to freelance in the NFL the way he does now and he's going to look...injured, very quickly.

Make no mistake, within five years there's a better chance we'll see Vince Young playing QB in the CFL than in the NFL.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:58 am

Van you never cease to amaze me with your lack of football knowledge. I might as well be talking football with my wife, hell even she knows more about football than you do, and she is from Canada.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:33 pm

Vito, how are you so sure that Vince will be a top flight NFL QB? As a QB, taking his running abilities out of it, he is a very, very average passer. His accuracy may be better, but how many times has he stood in the pocket and made a throw with pressure on him. Not many. He runs, and when he does he looks to run first, then pass. And you're going to bring out instances where he threw on the run as evidence that he isn't like that, but any QB who has over 200 yards rushing looks to run when he scrambles rather than move to make a throw.

Vince Young's best bet to make it as an NFL QB is to get drafted in the 20's where he can sit and watch for a year, only worry about his passing, and then take over a year or two later. If that happens, he has a chance to be a starter for a long time in the NFL. If he goes to a team in the top 5 picks with no running game, no WR's or no OL, than he is screwed.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:33 pm

Vito, don't even bother. You just said you'd have to go to Michael Jordan or Joe Montana to find any other athlete who has the will to win and leadership ability of some untested Texas QB...

~That was probably the lamest Fan Boy comment anyone's ever posted on any CFL Forum, ever.~

So, now it's out. You pretty much know hype more than you know football. Basically, you have zero credibility.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:36 pm

Killian wrote:Vito, how are you so sure that Vince will be a top flight NFL QB? As a QB, taking his running abilities out of it, he is a very, very average passer. His accuracy may be better, but how many times has he stood in the pocket and made a throw with pressure on him. Not many. He runs, and when he does he looks to run first, then pass. And you're going to bring out instances where he threw on the run as evidence that he isn't like that, but any QB who has over 200 yards rushing looks to run when he scrambles rather than move to make a throw.

Vince Young's best bet to make it as an NFL QB is to get drafted in the 20's where he can sit and watch for a year, only worry about his passing, and then take over a year or two later. If that happens, he has a chance to be a starter for a long time in the NFL. If he goes to a team in the top 5 picks with no running game, no WR's or no OL, than he is screwed.

You know nothing about Vince, He almost never looks to run first, if he did he would likely have about twice as many yards as he does now. A great example of this was in the OSU game where he stood in the pocket facing a blitzing linebacker who was coming at him unblocked, he side stepped the linebacker stepped up there was a hole where he could have run for about 20 yards but instead he delivered a perfect pass to Pittman who took the ball 68 yards to the OSU 5 yard line to setup a score.

Thats just one example. He has been doing this all year. Take yourself out of 2k4 and into 2k5 Vince has grown into a true passing QB. He still has some accuracy problems but once he gets going he is almost impossible to stop. If you actually watched him play instead of just making general statements about duel-threat QBs you would realize that Vince uses his running ability to keep the defense off-balance and in instances where he knows it is the best option, other than that he has stated on numerous occasions that his primary job is to make sure he gets everyone involved which means hanging in the pocket and waiting for someone to get open. You don't throw for as many yards has Vince has by running every time you feel a little pressure.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:07 pm

Quarterbacks who look to throw first don't run it 20+ times a game like he did against both OSU teams. Both games that were close and Vince decided he need to run the ball to make things happen.

He may be worlds better than last year. He should be because he was an awful passer last season. The biggest problem with Young is that when he does have pressure, he reverts to very bad mechanics. Slinging the ball, throwing flat footed, and opening his shoulders up too soon. Even the game winning TD pass he threw against OSU was flat footed. That's the type of shit that will kill him on the next level. Unless he goes to a team that can sit him down for a year or two and completely re-work his mechanics and more importantly, break his bad habits.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:33 pm

Seeing that the state of starting QB's in the NFL is piss poor, Mr Young couldnt possible be worse than Tommy Maddox, Chris Simms, Harrington, Orton, Boller or Frerotte. If he stays another year at Texas and improves as much next year as he did this year, I could possibly see him as a QB in the NFL.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:02 pm

Killian wrote:Quarterbacks who look to throw first don't run it 20+ times a game like he did against both OSU teams. Both games that were close and Vince decided he need to run the ball to make things happen.

He may be worlds better than last year. He should be because he was an awful passer last season. The biggest problem with Young is that when he does have pressure, he reverts to very bad mechanics. Slinging the ball, throwing flat footed, and opening his shoulders up too soon. Even the game winning TD pass he threw against OSU was flat footed. That's the type of shit that will kill him on the next level. Unless he goes to a team that can sit him down for a year or two and completely re-work his mechanics and more importantly, break his bad habits.

The more you talk the more I realize you haven't even watched Vince play but maybe once. He has that many attempts because we have designed running plays for Vince and one of our base running plays is the zone read where he keeps the ball about half the time. Then there is the fact that every time he is sacked it also counts as a running attempt. combine that all together and you will notice that Vince is right about where he should be in rushing attempts.

Try catching a Texas game before you open your chubby hoover.

EDIT: As for his mechanics, you will never see me or any other Texas fan defend his bad mechanics. Even Vince wouldn't defend his mechanics but his arm is so strong he has yet to need great mechanics. When he gets to the NFL he knows he is going to need to change them but for now he is working on other parts of his passing game.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:21 pm

Vito Corleone wrote:The more you talk the more I realize you haven't even watched Vince play but maybe once. He has that many attempts because we have designed running plays for Vince and one of our base running plays is the zone read where he keeps the ball about half the time. Then there is the fact that every time he is sacked it also counts as a running attempt. combine that all together and you will notice that Vince is right about where he should be in rushing attempts.

Try catching a Texas game before you open your chubby hoover.

Why hasn't he had that many carries in other games, if it is a designed part of the offense? Because they were blowing teams out? Fine. But that plays into my point. When the games are close, Vince has run the ball more. Why? Why don't they just trust his arm to move the ball or to get them in the endzone. Because Texas is more comfortable with Young running the ball, especially in the red zone, than throwing it. Unitl that changes, he is a project as a QB.

Sky · Post by **Sky** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:20 pm

Does Vince stay in school if he wins the Heisman?

Does Leinhart lose promise after winning last year but not this year?

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:24 pm

Leinart loses no promise b/c he still should win the Heisman. I think the reason he is 2nd or 3rd right now is b/c people feel he already has one. Simliar to Jason White the year before. Yeah leinart has studs around him, but w/ out him USC doesnt win 32 in a row. Bush has been non-existent the past couple of weeks and they still have blown everybody out.

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:34 pm

How does it play into your point, fact is Texas has already doubled the number of explosive plays this year that it had last year. (Explosive play is a running play that goes for greater than 14 yards or a passing play that goes for greater than 16 yards) Vince has only finished 1 game this year; he has played in the 4th quarter of 3 games this year. In 5 games he has only played til the 1st series of the 3rd quarter.

And when OSU was keying on Vince and not letting him run with the ball it was his arm not his legs that won that game. And that is not a completely correct statement either because his legs forced the OSU safeties to play shallow and allow Texas to throw into a wide open middle field.

So far this year Vince has rushed the ball an average of 11 times per game. Of those 11 times you must factor in the fact that Texas has given up 1.1 sacks per game. Now if he rushes the ball an average of 8.3 times per game and 4 or 5 of those are designed plays that he carries the ball then that leaves 4.3 to 3.3 plays per game where he dropped back to pass and ran with the ball. Now according to statistics he has attempted an avg of 25.3 passes per game. But that is just plays where he actually made a pass. Now you are saying that if you factor in 4.3 -3.3 more passing plays where he took off and ran with the ball (the 1.1 sacks per game are factored into his rushing stats).

So roughly Vince drops back to pass around 29.6 times per game and runs with it 14.52-11.3% of the time.

Now lets consider Michael Vick who as of today (9 games played) has attempted 187 passes and has rushed the ball for 64 times and has been sacked 25 times. Now I don't know for sure but I don't think that Atlanta uses him as running back with designed running plays, I could be wrong but IMO it would be crazy to expose him to extra punishment like that in a 16 game season but lets say that he does so per game he is averaging 20.7 pass plays per game and 7.1 rushing plays per game with maybe 2 being designed rushing plays per game. Then that means that MV is dropping back to pass 24 .8 times per game and taking off 5.1 times cause he is running for his life. which means that 19% of the time he drops back to pass he is running with the ball.

Now lets look at what a pure pocket passer can do.
Matt Leinart has in 10 games attempted 336 passes or 33.6 attempts per game. Now Matt has also attempted 35 rushes per game or 3.5 per game. Factoring into rushing attempts per game is the number of times he was sacked, which is 1.2 times per game. This means that Matt Leinart is dropping back to pass 36.2 times and running with it 1 time per game. this means that Matt is running on pass plays an average of 3.6% of the time.

The only other question left to be asked is how many times is Matt having to throw away the ball because he can't find anyone open and he needs to avoid a sack. I did a search and could not find any stats for the number of times Matt or Vince was pressured but the fact is both QBs have extremely high passing efficiency numbers with Vince at 169.8 and Matt at 165.5, both have very high completion % with Vince at 63.5% and Matt at 66.4

My conclusion is that Vince has one more weapon to use than Matt does, and he uses it 1 out of 10 times which ain't that bad. And the other weapon, according to statistics, are about equal.

As for your BS about Vince in the red zone here are a few stats for you Texas has had 52 trips to the red zone and scored 45 times with 39 of those being touchdowns. 9 of those are passes. Of the 7 times Texas has failed to score in the red zone none were by way of interception so I don't see how you can say that the reason we run it is because we don't trust Vince's arm. He has done nothing to make us not trust it. My question is why pass when we can do the sure thing and run it in behind the best running game in college football.