Why is the Bush Administration soft on illegal immigration?

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:58 pm

There was a good spate of jingoism that erupted today, as the new spanish Star Spangled Banner hit the airwaves.

So they are singing the anthem in Spanish. I don't have a problem with that. It's not illegal to speak or sing Spanish in America, what's wrong with singing the anthem in your native tongue?

Americans appropriated the anthem from "God Save the King". We have taken and dispensed with a great deal of things that have come from other cultures. This has always happened, and it always will.

English is a great language because it is permeable, we incorporate what we need into it. It is a great language because it is useful to us, it can handle being expanded. To a certain extent, the same is true of America. Nativists often forget this. It is quite American to eat pad thai and worship Buddha, just as it is naturally American to eat apple pie and love baseball. There is no officially designated cultural template for being American, which is exactly what has made this country great over the centuries.

I of course hope that immigrants bring their cultures and passions to America and pursue them here. I hope they do so with a respect for those that differ from them, and that they attempt to work with other Americans to build a better nation. It's really quite simple. I personally don't care for some cultural phenomena, but I don't have to like it. I can be who I want to be, a white man with a Northwest European cultural background, etc. No beaner in NM singing the anthem in Spanish is going to change that on my behalf.

Fuck the Jingobelchers.

Husker4ever · Post by **Husker4ever** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:09 am

Seems to me that most people who bang the diversity drum seem to forget places like Bosnia and Israel. If they intend to come here legally and eventually assimilate....good deal.

Marching down the street waving a Mexican flag and demanding rights whilst comitting another crime with each successive step as an illegal alien is not what I call cultural "enrichment"

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:19 am

You people suck and need to get a clue.

_________________
Image

Hmmmm.. all that brutal smack from a guy( ?) who has a nascar in his sig...

Grab an flagpoles lately Wags ??

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:20 am

I'm sure I'll fukk this quote up a bit but here goes anyway....

"what's with all african american and latin american crap? back in my day we was all just americans. if a fella wanted to be a spic or a coon, he did it on his own time."
-Archie Bunker

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:25 am

Personally, I'm willing to believe that not all immigrants are doing that. Sure, some are, but not all.

If you've ever spent any time in Boston, you know that there are a great deal of illegal Irish in the area. They wave their flags on St. Patrick's day. They are therefore guilty of the same chutzpah...but as we both know, not all illegal Irish are doing that.

As for the example of Israel and Bosnia...well, here in America there are many examples of cultural shifts, in which waves of immigrants have been assimilated. America is not Bosnia or Israel (thank fucking GOD). Therefore, I do not fear those types of problems. I think there will be controversy, but I expect the current immigration issues to be resolved...or moved on from...much more peacefully.

BTW...today on the news I heard that they're calling off the War on Drugs here in PA. They can't fucking afford it any longer.

http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/14454585.htm

Also, there's a War on. Do you know how much the damn thing is costing us?

Immigration...distraction, much?

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:40 am

Husker4ever wrote: Checks and balances....and someone has to present the other side of the arguement...

WTF do you think I've been doing all along?

90% of the knee-jerk hysterical reactionaries on this topic are posting stupid shit like "let's build a wall" and "make them felons" or "shoot them on sight".

Don't mean to come off like a prick on this topic but the firsthand experience I get in my job makes it personal. I'm intimately aware of how evil and vial a number of these illegal aliens are. Like I said, we got ALOT of the undesireables because they have no where else to turn to.

You should worry less about coming off as a prick, and more about coming off as a dumbass.

Like I said before, and I repeat:

If my tax dollars pay your salary, I want my fucking money back.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:52 am

War Wagon wrote:If it was up to me, I'd deport all of you.

But I'd grant RF and PSU temporary work visas for demonstrating at least a modicum of rationality regarding this issue.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:13 am

Interesting article on employer sanctions-from 1995:

Employers are also liable for any discrimination, whether intentional or inadvertent, that results from an overzealous attempt to comply with the sanctions provisions of IRCA. When Congress passed employer sanctions provisions of IRCA in 1986, there was profound concern that some employers, in seeking to comply with the law, might discriminate against particular individuals who looked or sounded "foreign". To prevent this, section 274B of the Act provides that employers with more than three employees cannot engage in discrimination based upon nationality or citizenship status in hiring or discharging employees.

INS construes actual knowledge broadly. It can include mere lapses in an employer's attentiveness, such as permitting an employee to work beyond the expiration date of an INS-issued employment authorization document (EAD). Actual knowledge is also deemed to include simple lapses in good judgment, such as when an employer accepts documents of questionable validity in support of form I-9 out of fear that challenging the documents would violate its duty not to discriminate.

An employer is equally liable under the law even though it lacks actual knowledge that an employee is not authorized to work. INS regulations define knowledge to include "constructive knowledge": "knowledge which may fairly be inferred through the notice of certain facts and circumstances which would lead a person, through the exercise of reasonable care, to know about a certain condition." Constructive knowledge may be found, but is not limited to, situations where the employer: (a) fails to complete or improperly completes the I-9, (b) has information available to indicate that the alien did not have authorization to work such as an Application for Alien Labor Certification, or (c) acts with "reckless and wanton disregard" of the law by allowing a third party to introduce an unauthorized alien into the work force. In at least the first two of these three scenarios, it is easy for an employer to commit inadvertent errors -- errors that nonetheless incur penalties.

Employers must walk a very fine line in their examination of documents. An employer can only accept documents from the I-9 list, but may not specify which documents will be acceptable for employment verification. It is only when an employee presents documents not appearing on the list that the employer may ask for additional proof of identity and/or employment authorization. An employer who requests specific documents, such as a drivers license and a social security card, may be charged with document abuse and fined accordingly.

An employer must refrain from overzealous scrutiny of documents. The rejection of a questionable document which later proves to be genuine may result in a violation of the anti-discrimination provisions of IRCA. Also, pursuant to § 274B, an employer who singles out a particular nationality or ethnic group for a higher level of scrutiny will face sanctions under that provision. Citizens and noncitizens must be treated identically in completing the I-9.

There is an inherent tension between INS's interpretation of the constructive knowledge requirement and the employer's obligation not to discriminate or commit document abuse. To illustrate, let's assume that an employee holds a temporary work visa for which he was sponsored by the employer. The particular visa is of limited duration and may not be extended. Upon the expiration of the visa, the employer calls in the employee to reverify his employment authorization. The employee presents a social security card, a List C document. Does the employer, knowing that he has not sponsored the worker for an extension of his visa, have an obligation to question the employee further concerning his authorization to work? If he fails to do so, INS may have grounds to claim that he had constructive knowledge of the employees illegality. However, if he does question the employee, he is opening himself up to a discrimination or document abuse charge. After all, the employee may have obtained work authorization through an alternate means.

http://www.shusterman.com/sanction.html

Husker4ever · Post by **Husker4ever** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:54 am

War Wagon wrote:
Husker4ever wrote: Checks and balances....and someone has to present the other side of the arguement...
WTF do you think I've been doing all along?

90% of the knee-jerk hysterical reactionaries on this topic are posting stupid shit like "let's build a wall" and "make them felons" or "shoot them on sight".

Don't mean to come off like a prick on this topic but the firsthand experience I get in my job makes it personal. I'm intimately aware of how evil and vial a number of these illegal aliens are. Like I said, we got ALOT of the undesireables because they have no where else to turn to.
You should worry less about coming off as a prick, and more about coming off as a dumbass.

Like I said before, and I repeat:

If my tax dollars pay your salary, I want my fucking money back.

I'm in the trenches and have the aforementioned firsthand experience. What the fuck could you possibly know from your ivory tower safely tucked away from it all?

Maybe you go slumming at the ethnic festival a couple times a year, but I doubt you'd live or raise your children amongst those you will not hold accountable thanks to your PC indoctrination that manifests itself everytime you open your ignorant flap-trap. Don't exclude yourself from the reality of it and continually referencing your PC Whore 101 textbook if you intend to make a lick of fucking sense on the topic.

Husker4ever · Post by **Husker4ever** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:57 am

War Wagon wrote:
War Wagon wrote:If it was up to me, I'd deport all of you.
But I'd grant RF and PSU temporary work visas for demonstrating at least a modicum of rationality regarding this issue.

Would you accept my matricula consulate card? It only cost me 35 bucks and it GUARANTEES I am who I say I am.

Husker4ever · Post by **Husker4ever** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:04 am

PSUFAN wrote:Personally, I'm willing to believe that not all immigrants are doing that. Sure, some are, but not all.

If you've ever spent any time in Boston, you know that there are a great deal of illegal Irish in the area. They wave their flags on St. Patrick's day. They are therefore guilty of the same chutzpah...but as we both know, not all illegal Irish are doing that.

As for the example of Israel and Bosnia...well, here in America there are many examples of cultural shifts, in which waves of immigrants have been assimilated. America is not Bosnia or Israel (thank fucking GOD). Therefore, I do not fear those types of problems. I think there will be controversy, but I expect the current immigration issues to be resolved...or moved on from...much more peacefully.

BTW...today on the news I heard that they're calling off the War on Drugs here in PA. They can't fucking afford it any longer.

http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/14454585.htm

Also, there's a War on. Do you know how much the damn thing is costing us?

Immigration...distraction, much?

Excellent points, PSU. And you may be right that there's some diversion going on. I wonder how they whipped up all the emotion that inspired the marches? We are continually on terrorism alerts and all of the sudden we got messicans marching down our city streets waving a foreign flag and demanding shit. Damn right we're going to be edgy and a bit defensive. They might as well have all put on turbans and started waving road flares around.

You should fill War Wagon in on how to have a take and present it in an intelligent manner.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:14 am

Husker4ever wrote: I'm in the trenches and have the aforementioned firsthand experience.

Trenches? Do you (god forbid) get your hands dirty?

Do explain about how you are in the trenches, and then explain about how you aren't allowed to make any decisions whatsoever.

What the fuck could you possibly know from your ivory tower safely tucked away from it all?

Hello?

I supervise a crew of Hispanics. Good people who come to work everyday on time and bust their ass and don't give my company any shit.

Would that we could have more than a handful of American white boys who have the same work ethic, but we don't.

There's the rub.

Americans (like you) have become so fucking spoiled and complacent, you get circles run around you by people who are hungry.

Don't talk to me about "ivory towers" you incompetent government service employee.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:25 am

mvscal wrote:
War Wagon wrote:WTF do you think I've been doing all along?
Selling out your country to foreign tramps and ragbags.

Get a job. One that actually produces some... thing.

I have a hard time imagining that you've ever done an honest days work in your life.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:44 am

As usual, you also have my respect amidst ships, H4e.

I wonder how they whipped up all the emotion that inspired the marches? We are continually on terrorism alerts and all of the sudden we got messicans marching down our city streets waving a foreign flag and demanding shit. Damn right we're going to be edgy and a bit defensive.

This is an important point. I will be interested in reading some of the accounts that posters here will furnish if they happen to see some of these demonstrations first-hand. Heaven knows, television has a way of making some thosands look like hordes, and I suspect there is some pot-stirring going on with that. Edgy and defensive is a good way to render your viewers, if you are looking to get their eyeballs on some (or a lot of) advertising. I'll never forget the media circus they made out of the Kobe trial...sure, he seemed despicable, but for Christ's sake, is the damn thing worth 24-7 coverage? On every single channel? Here's a novel idea...just tell us how the trial goes after it's done with, instead of hovering over it ceaselessly. Of course, it serves their purposes much better to chafe the nerves of their viewers, and keep them, as you say, edgy and a bit defensive.

Surely the cameras will roll on some illegals who are waving flags, holding La Raza posters, etc. Surely Hannity and his ilk will jingo it up for listeners. What will come of those things? Will we rise together in support of real immigration reform? Or will the issue become further obscured by emotion and errant Nativism?

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:56 am

mvscal wrote:Nothing quite like some fuckwitted hayseed in Kansas City telling California residents that there isn't a problem with illegal immigration.

I never said that there wasn't a problem.

We differ on the solution.

Husker4ever · Post by **Husker4ever** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:56 am

War Wagon wrote:
Husker4ever wrote: I'm in the trenches and have the aforementioned firsthand experience.

Trenches? Do you (god forbid) get your hands dirty?

Do explain about how you are in the trenches, and then explain about how you aren't allowed to make any decisions whatsoever.

What the fuck could you possibly know from your ivory tower safely tucked away from it all?
Hello?

I supervise a crew of Hispanics. Good people who come to work everyday on time and bust their ass and don't give my company any shit.

Would that we could have more than a handful of American white boys who have the same work ethic, but we don't.

There's the rub.

Americans (like you) have become so fucking spoiled and complacent, you get circles run around you by people who are hungry.

Don't talk to me about "ivory towers" you incompetent government service employee.

Aha...you rely on cheap, illegal labor. There's the real "rub" And then you have the nads to chastise others in here for lumping all illegals together as bad and later call all "American white boys" lazy. Epic....your hypocrisy that is.

Husker4ever · Post by **Husker4ever** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:02 am

PSUFAN wrote:As usual, you also have my respect amidst ships, H4e.

I wonder how they whipped up all the emotion that inspired the marches? We are continually on terrorism alerts and all of the sudden we got messicans marching down our city streets waving a foreign flag and demanding shit. Damn right we're going to be edgy and a bit defensive.
This is an important point. I will be interested in reading some of the accounts that posters here will furnish if they happen to see some of these demonstrations first-hand. Heaven knows, television has a way of making some thosands look like hordes, and I suspect there is some pot-stirring going on with that. Edgy and defensive is a good way to render your viewers, if you are looking to get their eyeballs on some (or a lot of) advertising. I'll never forget the media circus they made out of the Kobe trial...sure, he seemed despicable, but for Christ's sake, is the damn thing worth 24-7 coverage? On every single channel? Here's a novel idea...just tell us how the trial goes after it's done with, instead of hovering over it ceaselessly. Of course, it serves their purposes much better to chafe the nerves of their viewers, and keep them, as you say, edgy and a bit defensive.

Surely the cameras will roll on some illegals who are waving flags, holding La Raza posters, etc. Surely Hannity and his ilk will jingo it up for listeners. What will come of those things? Will we rise together in support of real immigration reform? Or will the issue become further obscured by emotion and errant Nativism?

Touche, PSU.

Real immigration reform is the key. Once we get our vote whore politicians back in line, it might happen. See ya next century. I just hope the country survives until then. I see things deteriorating badly over the next 5 years if something isn't done to appease both sides. Our war on terror is a joke with unsecure borders.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:05 am

Husker4ever wrote:I wonder how they whipped up all the emotion that inspired the marches?

Duh.

Back in December the HoR passed a bill making it a freaking felony to be here illegally.

You've obviously got a lot of catching up to do.

Get back with me when you've done that.

In the meantime, research the difference between a civil crime, and a felony crime.

Dumbass.

Husker4ever · Post by **Husker4ever** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:14 am

War Wagon wrote:
Husker4ever wrote:I wonder how they whipped up all the emotion that inspired the marches?
Duh.

Back in December the HoR passed a bill making it a freaking felony to be here illegally.

You've obviously got a lot of catching up to do.

Get back with me when you've done that.

In the meantime, research the difference between a civil crime, and a felony crime.

Dumbass.

Hey fuckstick....An illegal, or one here legally with a work permit, can be held and then deported for a misdemeanor domestic assault...among other misdemeanors. Got any more questions? Didn't think so. Get back to your lego set.

edit: Just caught the point you were making...my bad. Been a long day.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:15 am

Husker4ever wrote:
Aha...you rely on cheap, illegal labor. There's the real "rub" And then you have the nads to chastise others in here for lumping all illegals together as bad and later call all "American white boys" lazy. Epic....your hypocrisy that is.

They're neither cheap or illegal. They do cast their lot in with their brethren however, and who can blame them?

I also didn't say that all American white boys are lazy.

But a bunch of them are, and think that they're entitled to shit just because they were born here.

Husker4ever · Post by **Husker4ever** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:20 am

War Wagon wrote:
Husker4ever wrote:
Aha...you rely on cheap, illegal labor. There's the real "rub" And then you have the nads to chastise others in here for lumping all illegals together as bad and later call all "American white boys" lazy. Epic....your hypocrisy that is.
They're neither cheap or illegal. They do cast their lot in with their brethren however, and who can blame them?

I also didn't say that all American white boys are lazy.

But a bunch of them are, and think that they're entitled to shit just because they were born here.

So were your fibbing or just emphasizing your point when you said all but a handful were lazy and unmotivated?

Also, what forms of identification did your crack squad of dirt rakers and leaf baggers present when you hired them? The best kind money could buy?

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:22 am

Husker4ever wrote: An illegal can be deported for a misdemeanor domestic assault...among other misdemeanors.

Well, hardass, why the fuck don't yoo get busy and start doing your JOB then?

Oh, because you're too busy bitching about all the hard work that you ostensibly do in the trenches.

Sic 'em, boy.

Husker4ever · Post by **Husker4ever** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:29 am

War Wagon wrote:
Husker4ever wrote: An illegal can be deported for a misdemeanor domestic assault...among other misdemeanors.
Well, hardass, why the fuck don't yoo get busy and start doing your JOB then?

Oh, because you're too busy bitching about all the hard work that you ostensibly do in the trenches.

Sic 'em, boy.

I ain't bitching....I signed up for the job I do. I was just trying to give perspective from the inside of this broken, inneffective system we have now.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:34 am

Husker4ever wrote: So were your fibbing or just emphasizing your point when you said all but a handful were lazy and unmotivated?

Fib?

Now I know that you are a country boy. The last person to accuse me of "fibbing" was my dear old Uncle Leo when I was 12 years old on his farm just outside Seneca, Kansas.

White Flag!

I can't stay mad at ya', dawg.

Solo · Post by **Solo** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:36 am

War Wagon wrote:They're neither cheap or illegal.

How do you know they're not Illegal?

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:53 am

Solo wrote:
War Wagon wrote:They're neither cheap or illegal.
How do you know they're not Illegal?

I don't need to know. That's HRs job.

I do know that one of my best guys has to leave on May 15th because his work visa will have expired. He's supposed to come back three months later after he gets all his paperwork done in Monterrey. We've granted him a LOA in the meantime.

I hope that Jose Antonio Herrera comes back, 'cause he's really a pleasure to work with.

Husker4ever · Post by **Husker4ever** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:02 am

War Wagon wrote:
Solo wrote:
War Wagon wrote:They're neither cheap or illegal.
How do you know they're not Illegal?
I don't need to know. That's HRs job.

I do know that one of my best guys has to leave on May 15th because his work visa will have expired. He's supposed to come back three months later after he gets all his paperwork done in Monterrey. We've granted him a LOA in the meantime.

I hope that Jose Antonio Herrera comes back, 'cause he's really a pleasure to work with.

That's cool and all that your company would do that for the guy and props to the guy for doing things the right way but...how many your company's citizen employees would get a 3 month leave to tie up some legal loose ends?

Discrimination right?

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:12 am

Husker4 wrote:...how many your company's citizen employees would get a 3 month leave to tie up some legal loose ends?

Any and all of them, if they left on good terms.

This is an old school family owned company and it's really quite simple.

You do right by them, they'll do right by you.

Spinach Genie · Post by **Spinach Genie** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:21 am

Not in California, not in a border Texas, Arizona or New Mexico town...Atlanta, deep south, GA...take a drive down Buford highway. Note the complete lack of the english language. Note the complete lack of diversity of work force in the area. The vast majority are not coming to be American citizens. They are coming to work and send the money back to Mexico...and we're paying for it through overworked social programs, overstuffed emergency rooms and an economy that can't legally compete with illegal labor.

Come here, fine. Legally. Many do. If we don't enforce our immigration policies, we'll crumble under the weight of Mexico's problem.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:45 pm

I hope that Jose Antonio Herrera comes back, 'cause he's really a pleasure to work with.

Chances are that dudes name will be different when he comes back though...

Husker4ever · Post by **Husker4ever** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:54 am

Derron wrote:
I hope that Jose Antonio Herrera comes back, 'cause he's really a pleasure to work with.
Chances are that dudes name will be different when he comes back though...

^^^Exactamundo We deported an illegal by the name of Manual Mota Laura (or something like that) for distribution of a controlled substance (meth). He plea bargained, got time served (6 months), and was then deported.

Cut to 6 months later and he's back in jail for the same offense going by the name Jhonny Valdez. I guess somebody fucked up the Johnny part down at the Mexican Consulate office.

Give them 35 dollars of green money and you can get one under the name "Mary Poppins" Take that fucker to the DMV and presto....you got a driver's license by the same name and you can now go get food stamps and welfare with your Mary Poppins driver's license...an official form of I.D.

The fucked up part is you get to take the written part of your driver's exam for your fraudulantly obtained driver's license in Spanish if your translator requests one. How in hell you going to read a street sign if you can't take your exam in English?

Why are they marching? Don't it sound like they got it made already? Maybe they're just pissed at the price of a U.S. Postal money order when they send American dollars from American jobs back to Mexico.