To those who were sure that Gracie would beat Hughes

[Rack Fu]

As for Rickson Gracie...

It's common knowledge among MMA fans that he is indeed the badass of the Gracie clan. That said, his "legend" has more or less reached Keyser Soze mythical proportions to the point that it's becoming a running joke. He's almost 50 and couldn't compete against today's studs. End of story!

Dins,
Fedor is universally acknowledged as the best MMA fighter that has ever graced this planet - past or present. He's a cyborg with ridiculous skills. He's a gifted striker, ground and pounder and submission wrestler. You won't find one legit MMA expert who'll disagree. I'm not talking fans the experts, as most know jack shit - I'm talking fighters, coaches, magazine editors & reporters, Sherdog guys, etc.

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira is considered the be all and end all of Brazilian submission fighters (yes, better than the Gracies) and Fedor smashed the hell out of him three times.

Fedor is the real deal.

[L45B]

Fedor Emelianko

^^ Just found a video of this guy, damn he's got quick hands for a heavyweight. Wonder why he hasn't fought in the UFC yet. Would be interesting to see him match up against Arlovski or Sylvia.

[Zyclone]

Rack Fedor he is the man!

Van heres is Wandy err Vandy.

The Axe Murderer!

[Zyclone]

Fedor Emelianko

^^ Just found a video of this guy, damn he's got quick hands for a heavyweight. Wonder why he hasn't fought in the UFC yet. Would be interesting to see him match up against Arlovski or Sylvia.

um..... the UFC is a joke and Fedor along with Nog would run through the entire ufc HW division in a matter of minutes.

Pride is 10 times the test the ufc is!

[Rack Fu]

Fedor Emelianko

^^ Just found a video of this guy, damn he's got quick hands for a heavyweight. Wonder why he hasn't fought in the UFC yet. Would be interesting to see him match up against Arlovski or Sylvia.

Pride and the UFC are considered the two elite MMA organizations in the world. As far as heavyweights are concerned, Pride is currently ten times better than the UFC. Fedor going to the UFC would be a demotion. Pride also pays much better.

[Zyclone]

Rack RF! Ya know whats funny is, Dins running his yap like he's ever done anything.

Call this what ya want but im willing to put 10k down at a Trollstop that Dins will attend and say I sub him in under 3 minutes!

No smack, just the facts.

[Dinsdale]

What are you going to do...try and hack my computer again, you POS?

[Uncle Fester]

Quote:
Rickson Gracie hasn’t competed in six years.

2006 PANAMERICAN JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

2006 Copa Pacifica de Jiu-JItsu

3rd AMERICAN NATIONAL JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

U.S. OPEN IX BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU TOURNAMENT

GRACIE UNITED JIU-JITSU TOURNAMENT 2004

2004 PAN AMERICAN JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIPS

6th ANNUAL COPA PACIFICA DE JIU-JITSU

1st INLAND EMPIRE INTERNATIONAL BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

2nd INLAND EMPIRE INTERNATIONAL BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

1st SOUTHWEST BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU TOURNAMENT

5th ANNUAL COPA PACIFICA DE JIU-JITSU

1st ANNUAL AMERICAN NATIONAL BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU TOURNAMENT

2003 PAN AMERICAN JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

1st ANNUAL SOUTHBAY TOURNAMENT IN TORRANCE

2nd AMERICAN NATIONAL JIU-JITSU CHAMPIONSHIP

Dins:

You pulled that from Rickson's own website. His students competed in these tournaments, NOT RICKSON HIMSELF.

As for the rest...

But, bottom line was the bottom line -- Rickson was getting huge money to show up at that point, and the American events paid dick in those days, relatively speaking(and the UFC wasn't above rigging fights in those days, whoring for the ratings).

Link? Which fights were rigged, exactly?

And "Whoring for ratings??" They were pay-per-view events. The goal was buy-ins, not ratings.

And Rickson's ridiculous record is legit.

Based on what? Because you say so? The MMA world wants to know.

And it appears your own research has uncovered some of the bullshit that's been spewed in this thread.

The only bullshit on this thread is yours.

You're knowledge is 10-15 years out of date. No one disputes the importance of Gracie jujitsu to modern MMA and Rickson might very well be the best of the Gracies. But all of this "Rickson would armbar Ditka, Jesus, and God himself" is really embarassing in this day and age.

Matt Hughes [beating the crap out of Royce] should have told ya.

[Van]

Why didn't Rickson ever end up fighting that "Gracie Hunter" Sak guy who beat four other Gracies?

One would think Family Honor and all that, ya' know...

Also, obviously it's impossible to say what would've happened but I would've liked Hughes to've taken on Hoyce (or Rickson) in their primes, not when they were old and very often semi inactive...

[Uncle Fester]

It's hard to sort through all the rumors and claims that fly around in the MMA world, especially those involving Rickson.

Lots of stories fly around:

* Sak was set to fight him, but then he lost to Silva.

* Bas Rutten challenged Rickson back in the early Pride days and nothing came of it.

* A long list of guys challenged Rickson but the fights never happened because of money, rules, the death of Rickson's son, his desire to keep his record clean, his "mystique," bla bla bla.

He rarely grants interviews so it's hard to know the real story.

Go to Best Buy and get the Pride 1-5 compilation. You can see Rickson beat Takada and do a really cool BJJ demonstration with his brother, Royler.

With all the claims that are made about the guy, the sad fact is that we'll never really know how good he is because he's gotten too old and the sport has evolved so dramatically in the last 15 years.

As for Fedor, do a Google video search and you can see for yourself who is the toughest guy on the planet. How he survived against Kevin Randleman is anybody's guess.

And look at Fedor escape from the bottom against his brother in a sambo match. (!)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 95&q=Fedor

[Rack Fu]

Why didn't Rickson ever end up fighting that "Gracie Hunter" Sak guy who beat four other Gracies?

One would think Family Honor and all that, ya' know...

Do you want the honest answer that people like Dins are ashamed to admit...

Rickson knew that Sakuraba would kick his ass all over the ring. If he thought that he could avenge the losses, he would have.

[Rack Fu]

Probably better than "I'm going to Disney World!" :P

[Van]

Fester, the more I see of that Fedor guy the more I like him. I love the way he's so casual and unimpressed by everything. Dude will literally sit there during the introductions and just scratch his ear or whatever while he looks over blankly at his opponent who'll be trying his damndest to win the fight before it even starts just through the sheer menacing power of his staredown.

Meanwhile, there's Fedor again, hitching his balls and sorta blandly looking at the ref as if to say, "Yeah, yeah, fine. Hurry up already, my borscht is getting cold..."

Once the fight starts though, fuck, that dude is active and aggressive as hell. He's always looking for the kill, right away.

I gotta say, with his size, ground skills, temperament and goddamn toughness he's the most impressive guy I've seen so far in my meager couple/few days of researching video clips of all these maniacs. (Wanderlei's also looked good in some clips but knowing how much and how badly he's lost I just can't consider that guy to be in the discussion for "Best Of All"...) This Fedor robot, it just doesn't appear that there's much of anything anybody could ever do to actually hurt that big steel meloned galoot and his body seems to be made of rubber anyway...

So, knowing that the original UFC fights I saw didn't even bother with weight classes (185 lb guys fought 300 lb dudes), hey, how would "little" Matt Hughes fare against this big ol' Ivan Drago dude here??

No chance whatsoever and Fedor would easily overpower and destroy him, or is such a size disparity really not all that important at that level of fighting so therefore nobody could ever waltz in and wipe the floor with Hughes...

[Moving Sale]

Van,
Please tell us about Ali's actions before the Frasier fights.

[Van]

Which one, and why?

[Dinsdale]

BODE defined.

[Uncle Fester]

Van:

Fedor is friggin scary. His nickname is the "Cyborg." He's got it all -- power, speed, heart, and techniques galore.

And Wanderlei has to be near the top of anybody's "Who's the Best" list. He'll fight anyone at any size and maul people, even in defeat. He took on Mark Hunt, a K-1 fighter who outweighed him by about 50 pounds, and lost a split decision. The guy is an animal.

As for the weight disparities, it didn't matter as much in the old days as a lot of the fighters were one-dimensional or just brawlers with no technique. Pride still fiddles with open-weight matches but not the UFC.

[Dinsdale]

Van, as far as the weight disparities --

Technique. All about technique.

In this age where there's so much "cross training" going on, the disparities between technique aren't what they once were.

Put two men of any size, even with radical differences in weight in the ring, the man with the better technique will ALWAYS win.

BUT -- add in hypothetical equality in technique, and the bigger, stronger man will win every time.

[Uncle Fester]

Yo Van:

If you have the inclination, rent "The Smashing Machine."

It's a documentary about Mark Kerr, a wrestler who scared the hell out of everybody back in the early days of Pride.

[DiT]

Yo Van:

If you have the inclination, rent "The Smashing Machine."

It's a documentary about Mark Kerr, a wrestler who scared the hell out of everybody back in the early days of Pride.

I remember Kerr fighting in UFC.
right after Coleman maybe?

[Rack Fu]

how would "little" Matt Hughes fare against this big ol' Ivan Drago dude here??

No chance whatsoever and Fedor would easily overpower and destroy him, or is such a size disparity really not all that important at that level of fighting so therefore nobody could ever waltz in and wipe the floor with Hughes...

Hughes wouldn't last very long against Fedor. It's not so much the size difference (although that would be quite an advantage for Fedor), it's that Fedor is more skilled than Hughes in every facet of the sport, with the exception of wrestling ability. And let us not forget that Fedor is probably 4" taller and 60 lbs heavier. Hughes fights guys that weigh 170 lbs. Fedor fights guys who weigh 225-plus.

[Rack Fu]

Put two men of any size, even with radical differences in weight in the ring, the man with the better technique will ALWAYS win.

The majority of the time - yes - but not always. Guys with far better skills and technique often get KO'd by a lesser opponent. Take UFC 59 for example. Andrei Arlovski has more skill in his little finger than Tim Sylvia has in his whole body, yet Sylvia took Arlovski's HW title away. Arlovski was kicking the crap out of Sylvia and got overzealos and threw a haymaker that missed. Sylvia's desperation counterpunch did not miss and he flash KO'd Arlovski.

There's always the proverbial "Puncher's Chance."

[Rack Fu]

On May 27, 2006, Royce Gracie would return to the UFC to face the current welterweight champion Matt Hughes. When the bell rang and the fight started, Matt and Royce got into a clinch and went to the ground. Matt was able to pass the guard (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) and establish the sidemount (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) from which he was able to attempt a Kimura lock (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) from which he transitioned into a straight arm lock (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu). Royce was able to untangle his arm and in an attempt to get to a better position, he went to his knees. At this point, Matt quickly spun to a backmount and with his hooks (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) in controlled Royce enough to be able to end the fight with an array of punches to the back of the head.

When the fight was over, the crowd was shocked, Royce lost but Gracie Jiu-Jitsu won.

The Gracie Academy would like to congratulate Mr. Hughes on his ability to recognize the importance of incorporating Gracie Jiu-Jitsu into his arsenal of techniques and on his dedication to achieving such a high level of proficiency in these techniques.

Not that they're really wrong on any account but I love how the Gracie's website can even spin Royce getting fucking mauled into somekind of Gracie victory.

God bless 'em.

[KC Scott]

Please allow me to clarify; armbars AND helicopter kicks are my specialty. I've been known to take out 6 Navy Seals at a time with my jiu-jitsu skills. I remember this one time, I was in the VIP section of a very popular celebrity hangout and Russell Crowe walks in with Tito Ortiz and they both start lipping off. After I took both of them and their eight bodyguards down, with ease mind you, I hopped on stage and played with the band. Then, and I know you guys aren't going to believe this shit, but I swear it's true, but these 2 porn stars walked right on the stage and started sucking me off right as I am in the middle of an epic riff that Hendrix taught me! After they coaxed my man yogurt from my 12 inch cock, I then exited the stage at the end of the tune to record execs and porn producers wanting me to sign with them. I don't know how I am going to pull it all off with my MMA training! I'm so good that I'll find a way though. Pardon me while I go split the atom.

Can't bee Leave this didn't Get Racked.

Fedor is the man - and the Russians have taken the Brazilians throne in the MMA heirarchy

[Rack Fu]

Fedor is the man - and the Russians have taken the Brazilians throne in the MMA heirarchy

I wouldn't count out the Brazilians just yet. They have 3 of the 4 best light heavyweights in Wanderlei Silva, Mauricio Rua and Renato Sobral. They also have, arguably, the second best heavyweight behind Fedor in Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (his little brother is no slouch at LHW either).

You also have:
Marcus Aurelio, Ricardo Arona, Anderson Silva, Vitor Belfort, Ryoto Machida, Fabricio Werdum & Paulo Filho.

Let's not forget the Americans as they currently hold all 4 UFC belts (granted, the best UFC HW is indeed from a former Soviet country and will get his title back in July) and 1 out of 4 of the Pride belts.

The Canadians are making a name for themselves in the UFC as well.

The former Soviets are represented very nicely with Fedor and Aleksander Emelianenko, Andrei Arlovski, Sergei Kharitonov and Igor Vovchanchyn.

[KC Scott]

The Russians just look dominant in every fight I've seen lately.

I agree Arlovski will destroy Silva.

[Dinsdale]

Not that they're really wrong on any account but I love how the Gracie's website can even spin Royce getting fucking mauled into somekind of Gracie victory.

That's some poo, right there.

But, there's probably large numbers of the uneducated masses who buy it...not realizing that every single move listed there has been around longer than Jesus has.

[Uncle Fester]

Matt was able to pass the guard (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) and establish the sidemount (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) from which he was able to attempt a Kimura lock (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) from which he transitioned into a straight arm lock (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu).

Hoo-boy.

The "Kimura" is actually a judo technique (ude-garami) that a man named Masahiko Kimura used to defeat Helio Gracie in 1951. In modern times, Sakuraba used the Kimura to just about rip the arms off of Royler and Renzo Gracie.

And now the Kimura is a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu technique?

Alrighty then. :)

[Dinsdale]

The "Kimura" is actually a judo technique (ude-garami)

Not exactly.

There was very little in the way of "new moves" in Jigoro Kano's Judo, which was founded circa 1882. The Great Master merely refined centuries-old jujitsu techniques into a more comprehensive, effecient system, which focused more on injury-free, repeatable training techniques than anything "groundbreaking."

If you like learning about that stuff, the biography of Jigoro Kano is pretty fascinating (although as always, time has made for different versions of his story -- the Kodokan should always be the definitive word on all things Kano). There's a reason his picture hangs in every Kodokan dojo in the world -- a true martial arts genius.

But, those armbars and other locks (kansetsu, if my memory works) aren't "judo" techniques, per se. Judo just brought those techniques to world-wide attention. Most people credit the origins of most of those moves to Theagenes, and other pioneering Ancient Greeks, who used them in Pankration events. Eventually, those techniques morphed their way across Asia, and of course the Chinese take credit for "inventing" them, which isn't a truthful account. If you look back to Ancient Olympic artwork, you'll see those same basic holds in use dating back over 2500 years.


Just sayin'.

I mean sure...everyone who has logged any mat-time has their own variant of some funky armbar, but the basics have been in place for 2500+ years.

[Uncle Fester]

I'm not up to speed on my ancient Greek martial arts techniques.

I suppose you could probably trace this stuff back to the days when one troglodyte grabbed another by the arm and gave it a twist, while all the other troglodytes sat around stunned, thinking "Wow, ownage."

I just thought it was funny that the Gracie's are claiming ownership to the one technique that has been their biggest Achiles heel over the years.

When I think of the Gracies I think of triangles, armbars, and the guard.

When I think the Kimura, I think of the Japanese, particularly Sakuraba.

[Dinsdale]

I suppose you could probably trace this stuff back to the days when one troglodyte grabbed another by the arm and gave it a twist, while all the other troglodytes sat around stunned, thinking "Wow, ownage."

I suppose you're right. Believe it or not, it's a little-known historical FACT that amongst ancient hieroglyphics found in caves, the word "PWN3D!!!" actually appears several times.

But most hand-to-hand history geeks attribute Theagenes with being the first to incorporate a "system" (once again, this is assuming my suspect-memory is working right) that could be consistantly reproduced and taught. Up for massive debate, I'm sure. What is for sure, is that the Ancient Olympians were using those same moves.


And let's not attribute those statements to "The Gracies." There's arrogant Gracies, and there's humble Gracies. Helio and Rorian would represent the arrogant ones (with Royce kind of being their little lap dog), and then you have Rickson -- the model of grace and class that all competitors should strive to be. Casting the entire Gracie Clan into one group isn't neccessarily fair -- but I see where you're coming from. Helio and Rorion are pretty bad when it comes to running their mouths, and Royce won't speak against them, and these are the Gracies most visible to the American public. Rickson isn't really one to do his fighting with his mouth. But if you really want to talk about Gracies who need to keep a sock in it, look no further than Ryan...fucking jerk(who rumor has it that he just about met an untimely demise in the last couple of weeks, courtesy of getting liquored up and deciding it was a good idea to take on the Sao Paulo Police Department).

Typing that reminded me of Ralph Gracie's classic, subtly cocky-while-humble line -- "I got very lucky tonight against such a good opponent. And the more I train, the luckier I get."

[Uncle Fester]

suppose you're right. Believe it or not, it's a little-known historical FACT that amongst ancient hieroglyphics found in caves, the word "PWN3D!!!" actually appears several times.

:)

I remember hearing Rickson speak to the crowd during the Exhibition he did with Royler in one of the early Prides. He seemed like a cool guy with mad skills and an almost reverent attitude toward his art. Very impressive. It's a shame he didn't fight more in the "modern" MMA era.

Rickson was quite the contrast from Renzo, who brutally armbarred Ben Spijker and then stepped on his neck for good measure. I guess some say that Spijker had it coming, but it was ugly to watch.

I was a big fan of Royce in the early UFC days, although looking back he really cranked on those armbars. I don't miss those days. In sport fighting, a good submission should end in a tapout, not an injury.

Ryan and Ralph both seem like hothead arseholes. I haven't heard anything about Ryan since he shot himself in the nuts. There was a video floating around where Ralph took a swing at Bobby Southworth, who was on crutches at the time. Pretty funny stuff.

[Dinsdale]

Renzo

Pure, unadulterated animal.

Love his enthusiasm, but can live without the tude.

Dude I trained with did a televised (in Brazil) submission match with Renzo. The 10 minute (I think it was) time limit didn't settle much, and although My Boy was getting the upper hand -- when it comes decision time, that "Gracie" name carries some clout.



Ryan is pretty much an idiot(**looks around to make sure Ryan didn't hear him**). This guy is more famous for the brawls he starts in the audience via sucker-punches than he is for anything he's done in the ring. Sounds like Vitor got tired of his act, and don't hang around Sao Paulo quite as much. The Sao Paulo Gracies, as a general rule, are a great deal more agressive than their Rio counterparts.

[Uncle Fester]

Renzo knocked out one my heroes, Oleg Taktarov, with a cheap upkick and then coldcocked him as he was falling to the mat. He's not exactly on a roll these days, having only beaten one guy in the last six years.

Who was the fighter you trained with?

[Dinsdale]

Who was the fighter you trained with?

You've never heard of him(chances are). Not sure he's ever competed in the US(and like me, is beyond his prime at this point).

Speaking of Oleg Taktarov -- this same guy ^^^^ may or may not have told the story about Oleg showing up at their gym(when Oleg was a hot ticket), and absolutely getting clowned by Vitor behind the closed doors...over and over and over and over. Rumor has it that Oleg didn't last 60 seconds even once...and Vitor was like 20 at the time.

For some odd reason, the copy of the videotape of said event was never sent along by Oleg's bud, as previously promised...wonder why?

[Uncle Fester]

I don't doubt that. Vitor was greased lightning and Oleg was more of a methodical, submission grappler. I thought Oleg's rolling kneebar was the coolest thing I had ever seen.

But man, he took some brutal punishment in his fights. I don't know if you ever saw him get knocked out by Gary Goodridge, but I was worried that he might be dead. Scary.

[Dinsdale]

Vitor was greased lightning and Oleg was more of a methodical, submission grappler.

No no...submission wrestling in the gym. And Oleg had his ass methodically whooped by a better grappler...not even close.


But damn, nobody took an asswhooping like Oleg...except for maybe Royce, now. Last time I saw that much blood, a chair came over the top turnbuckle.

[Zyclone]

Renzo knocked out one my heroes, Oleg Taktarov, with a cheap upkick and then coldcocked him as he was falling to the mat. He's not exactly on a roll these days, having only beaten one guy in the last six years.

Who was the fighter you trained with?

Fess, what people dont know about that fight was Oleg was not suppose to fight, he got a concussion a week or two before the fight in a match with Ruas and was told not to fight. I remember Art Davie telling me about this 2 days before the fight.

Taktarov has more heart then any fighter ive seen.

[Uncle Fester]

Taktarov will always be one of my faves. I didn't know about the concussion, but I was bummed after that fight.

And Dins, Belfort is fighting this weekend out in California against Alistair Overeem. I don't know if it's available on ppv or not.

[Dinsdale]

Belfort is fighting this weekend out in California

Making this different from any other weekend...how?

Sin,
Cocky Brazilian Surfer Dudes in SoCal...until their friend invariably whispers in their ear as to who that dude is who they've been clipping tude with