T1B

BSmack wrote:I look forward to never seeing you post again.

Oh puhleeeze I'll match my record of objectivity and intellectual integrity over yours any day of the week.

Tom In VA wrote:

BSmack wrote:

poptart wrote:Why does the media (and over-thinking pseudo-intellectual douchebags like BSchlepp) see a need to keep ramming the Abu Ghraib bullshit down the throats of Americans ... ?

How surprising that "over-thinking" would be a problem in your world.

Well you can over think something and there is such a thing as "paralysis by analysis". Feed your head.

Sorry dude, I gave that shit up for the 90s.

OK, maybe the mid 90s.

mvscal wrote:It's nothing but enemy propaganda that you are enthusiastically perpetuating.

RACK

mvscal wrote:

BSmack wrote:It became a big story because it WAS a big story. US soldiers violating the laws of decency and humanity will ALWAYS be a big story.

Only if a hostile media agenda decides to make it a "big story". A couple of bored soldiers smacking around the shiteating dregs of society is not the social crisis you would like it to be. It's nothing but enemy propaganda that you are enthusiastically perpetuating.

Prisoners aren't being held for the personal amusement of their guards. That is wrong, totally unprofessional and the perpetrators were punished, but in the grand scheme of things it's nothing.

The perpetrators were punished? I must have missed the frog marching of Rumsfeld, the Joint Chiefs, Gonzales, Bush and Cheney.

You're missing the whole point that the abuse was not just a few rogues acting out. This shit has been authorized from the highest levels of our government. The torture memos out front should have told you that.

Tom In VA wrote:

mvscal wrote:It's nothing but enemy propaganda that you are enthusiastically perpetuating.

RACK

Tom,

In the future, try to keep your hands off your penis while posting.

Bri, I've decided that you're just a hopeless idiot.

Where the fuck you been for the last 5 or so years pop ???

Cue the liberal monkeys now.

Simply stated - I'm ok with leaning hard on prisoners if it results in good intelligence.

Some of the stuff that has happened, though, seems to have gone far beyond intelligence-seeking.

Sudden Sam wrote:This all boils down to one thing:

We try to present an image to the rest of the world that we are above perpetrating incidents such as the prisoner misuse at Abu Ghraib and, now, the alleged massacre of civilians. It doesn't matter (to the world) what may have provoked these incidents. It wouldn't matter if the civilians were firing at the Marines. If the prisoners at Abu Ghraib had rioted and assaulted the guards prior to their being put to use as objects of entertainment, it wouldn't matter.

The fact is that the world wants to hate us...the world does hate us...and a lot of this hatred is most certainly generated by our actions. When we screw up, it is big news. We tell the world we do things a better way...but it only takes one mistake...one incident... to blow that facade. When one puts oneself on a pedestal and tells the world 'My way is the best way and the right way'...it's awfully easy to lose everything.

I don't think you raise an invalid point at all. But I do think you might fail to recognize is the the reports of "us screwing up" are all a part of the campaign.

When WE screw up, WE tend to point the finger at OURSELVES and accept the responsibility for it. I think you'll find that unique to US and the coalition forces, perhaps to Western Civilization. Of course if the media was what it used to be (which it can never be again) WE wouldn't hear about it (see WWI, WWII, Korea). Atrocities, were committed by U.S. and Allied troops in those wars, but they weren't reported during the war (?).

The main problem here IMO, is that we're conducting the trial of these Marines in public. They are entitled to due process.

PSUFAN wrote:Simply stated - I'm ok with leaning hard on prisoners if it results in good intelligence.

Some of the stuff that has happened, though, seems to have gone far beyond intelligence-seeking.

Agree with the spirit of your take but not sure I have the experience or knowledge to agree with the assessment of tactics.

Tom, what are your thoughts on the Abu Ghraib scandal?

mvscal wrote:

Tom In VA wrote:Agree with the spirit of your take but not sure I have the experience or knowledge to agree with the assessment of tactics.

Perhaps I can help.

After hours S&M theater run by lower enlisted ragbags is not among those accepted tactics.

Yea, and I'm sure the CIA spooks sent to help with prisoner interrogation had nothing to do with the tactics being used. Nope, they just sat back and let a bunch of GIs with rent a cop educations run the whole process.

PSUFAN wrote:Tom, what are your thoughts on the Abu Ghraib scandal?

I'm not sure I totally buy into the idea these folks acted solely in prurient self indulgence.

As far as tactics, how does one "break" a man willing to die for his cause ? I don't know, therefore I reserve comment on the tactics.



EDIT: Not sure they were CIA spooks. My guess is some tactics might have been extrapolated from other countries, countries that deal with terrorists. Perhaps even tactics straight out of Saddam's book.

I'm not sure I totally buy into the idea these folks acted solely in prurient self indulgence.

Then what was their motivation, do you think? Are you saying that nude pyramids were dictated by policy?

PSUFAN wrote:

I'm not sure I totally buy into the idea these folks acted solely in prurient self indulgence.

Then what was their motivation, do you think? Are you saying that nude pyramids were dictated by policy?

I believe they were motivated by getting the "job done". I believe the policy was .... there was no policy .... short of death or actual physical torture (i.e. the electrodes actually being attached to electricity in the one picture I believe it's clear they are not).

I believe the accused/convicted erred but they were errors trying to accomplish the overall mission. When the whistles blew, it was easy to distance them, isolate them, and wash our hands.

I view them as "casualties" of the war in a sense.

mvscal wrote:

Tom In VA wrote:As far as tactics, how does one "break" a man willing to die for his cause ?

Sleep deprivation, drugs and stress positions work wonders even on fanatics. Everyone has a breaking point.

I've read of a few more being employed that are far more sinister.

I believe they were motivated by getting the "job done"

What job?



Job well done, Spc. Graner. That prisoner will begin offering valuable intelligence any moment now.

PSUFAN wrote:

I believe they were motivated by getting the "job done"

What job?

Then my suspicions about your motive and sincerity are correct.

It's a simple question. What job?

Is the job to:

-kill the prisoners
-humiliate them
-populate Lindy England's scrapbook
-torture them


OR

-gain actionable intelligence

Don't be confused about my motives, I stated them clearly above:

Simply stated - I'm ok with leaning hard on prisoners if it results in good intelligence.

Now answer the question, Tom: you think they were just "getting the job done" at Abu Ghraib...I'm wondering what job you're talking about. I'm sincerely wondering.

It is my belief, they were primarily motivated by the need to break the prisoners down in order to acquire intelligence.

Exactly. Either they were following orders, or they were getting their kink on.

Tom, those are two evils. Which do you find the lesser?

mvscal wrote:

Tom In VA wrote:It is my belief, they were primarily motivated by the need to break the prisoners down in order to acquire intelligence.

Really?
It was General Taguba's belief that they were primarily motivated by getting their kicks out of abusing prisoners and a dysfunctional chain of command was unable to maintain good order and discipline in the unit.

A real impartial source there. Taguba was trying to save his ass and stop the buck on Karpinski's desk.

mvscal wrote:

Tom In VA wrote:It is my belief, they were primarily motivated by the need to break the prisoners down in order to acquire intelligence.

Really?
It was General Taguba's belief that they were primarily motivated by getting their kicks out of abusing prisoners and a dysfunctional chain of command was unable to maintain good order and discipline in the unit.

And his belief is the more consequential one, no question. I just conjure up images of Captain Charles Butler McVay III and the like. Found guilty when it's convenient, then exhonerated, when convenient.

PSUFAN wrote:Exactly. Either they were following orders, or they were getting their kink on.

Tom, those are two evils. Which do you find the lesser?

I never suggested they were following orders. My writing skills need work, I know. But don't misunderstand me.

I tell you .... "Get to the store". I don't tell you how to get there, just when and of course where to meet me. You follow suit and "get to the store". You happen to choose a method in which you go the wrong way down a one way street .... and get caught.

mvscal wrote:Save his ass from what? Save your response. It's clear you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

What is it about a cover up that you don't understand?

mvscal wrote:

BSmack wrote:

mvscal wrote:Save his ass from what? Save your response. It's clear you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

What is it about a cover up that you don't understand?

Besides the fact that there wasn't one?

Just shut the fuck up, idiot.

All you have is name calling. Let me know when you have something to back it up.

mvscal wrote:The military was already investigating the allegations before the story broke, you stupid, braindead fuck.

Nice "coverup" you got there, dumbshit.

Every coverup needs an investigation. The Watergate out front should have told you that.

Sleep deprivation, drugs and stress positions work wonders even on fanatics. Everyone has a breaking point.

This is true. You can also throw them out of helicopters one at a time and the rest of the gooks will start jabbering like crazy.

Sincerely,

500 Army officers in Vietnam.

mvscal wrote:~blink~

Yeah...right. Great take, you fucking idiot. Don't you have traffic to play in?

I figured I'd wait to see if you could manufacture a decent take.

Guess the traffic will have to wait.

mvscal wrote:~blink~

Yeah...right. Great take, you fucking idiot. Don't you have traffic to play in?

Planting season is over. He'll have to wait until the harvest, and then it'll only be a couple of tractors to dodge. Struck-by-lightening would be a good substitute, btw

mvscal wrote:

Bizzarofelice wrote:

Lt.WilliamCalleyscal wrote:Sorry, there's no way in hell a platoon of Marines just rolled out of the rack one morning and decided to massacre 24 civilians for kicks.

There is nothing even remotely comparable to My Lai and this bullshit lie either in scope or conception. There was no firefight and no there was no bombing. The only thing was Calley's contention that he was acting under orders.

There was absolutely no doubt as to what actually happened at My Lai. It was stopped by other American troops at gunpoint. It was reported by US troops. It was their efforts that finally got Congress and the press involved.

A typical load of absolute bullshit trotted out by Bab's, our resident closet-Nazi.

In point of fact, the My Lai massacre was reported only by virture of one man, military photographer Sgt. Ron Haeberle, who accompanied the 11th Brigade on their search and destroy missions in 1968. The massacre occurred leisurely over a four hour period. NOTHING whatsoever was done to stop it. Haeberle himself later said he wasn't even sure if he was witnessing a war crime or if it was business as usual. He took his rolls of film home with him, and only A FULL YEAR later when he happened to put together a slide show for a local Rotary Club did he he--and aghast viewers--realize what they were seeing. A long coverup/investigation ensued with two or three slaps on the respective wrists.

The young bright colonel assigned to head up the damage control/spin machine on the My Lai Massacre was of course the eager and ambitious Col. Colin Powell.

The massacre itself was a hideous and inhuman attack on innocent people--just like in Iraq. Rape and gruesome sadism were the norm.


And you who defend the vile crime of America's invasion of Iraq are just as bad as the grinning Nazis who delighted in the savaging of Eastern Europe (while none of them--like you--actually faced any danger).

And just like the Nazis in Poland, The French in Algeria, The U.S. in Viet Nam, the Boers in South Africa, the Russians (and Americans) in Afghanistan, this catastophic criminal act will be overcome, and Cheney will swing by his neck--if like Goering he doesn't slurp poison first!

My account is from Haeberle's personal testimony. Nothing is mentioned of Officer Thompson. But, good for him. The question remains, where are the real heroes like him amid the untold hundreds of these massacres going on? Indeed, this present Iraqi murder spree got notice ONLY because one guy happened to come upon it with a camera. At My Lai, NOTHING would have been reported except for Haebele's photos. And that took a year.

The REAL U.S. military style and character was and remains:

"But Mr Thompson was shunned for years by fellow soldiers, received death threats, and was once told by a congressman that he was the only American who should be punished over My Lai."



Wake the fuck up and stop offering pathetic excuses.

Derron wrote:

Sleep deprivation, drugs and stress positions work wonders even on fanatics. Everyone has a breaking point.

This is true. You can also throw them out of helicopters one at a time and the rest of the gooks will start jabbering like crazy.

Sincerely,

500 Army officers in Vietnam.

first hand accounts of this working quite well.
a story related to me went like this: 5-6 enemy were taken up in a helicopter blind folded,all were pushed out except one.
they removed his blindfold and when he saw all his buddies gone, the song was sung :twisted:

LTS TRN 2 wrote:...amid the untold hundreds of these massacres going on.

Untold "hundreds"?

They are untold, because it hasn't happened.

Or do you have some proof of these untold hundreds of massacres that are occuring? Other than in your feverish, deluded imagination, that is?

Afterall, it's not easy to hide even ONE massacre, much less HUNDREDS.

The REAL U.S. military style and character was and remains:

Much preferable to what yours is, you gibbering dumbfuck.

Wagoner, the ONLY way these massacres--and the Abu Grhaib torture sessions-- were reported was almost by accident. In each case a photographer happened to get some pics. NONE would have been reported through military channels. And you SUPPORT the character of the military displayed against the pilot who intervened? You're a sick fuck and disgrace to your country. As are the current officials and Fox hacks who want MORE control over pesky reporters and cameras.

diT wrote: first hand accounts of this working quite well.
a story related to me went like this: 5-6 enemy were taken up in a helicopter blind folded,all were pushed out except one.
they removed his blindfold and when he saw all his buddies gone, the song was sung :twisted:

Why blindfold them?

I think you have your bullshit Rambo stories mixed up.