T1B

Y2K wrote:

Ken wrote:Couple dumb people up in this thread.

Yep and you are one of them...

Please don't try to explain the running of water in the orchards again because reading that bullshit in the first place was brutal enough.

They don't run water for the stored energy from ice jackass.

They run water because the temp of the running water is around 60 degrees in these parts. Hence if you flood an orchard with 60 degree water it is A LOT warmer than the outside enviornment. There's the heat source idiot. They DON'T stop irrigating so ice won't form. They blow air across the water to move the heat around.
Brilliant isn't it.

Why thank you for your well-informed thoughts, Y2K. They were much appreciated. Further, they would be well received and good if it weren't for the little detail that it's not the California orchards we were talking about. Did you misidentify the pic of the ice-covered oranges as jerkovich's glazing on your balls?

Toss another stupid person onto the top of the pile.

Ken wrote:

Y2K wrote:

Ken wrote:Couple dumb people up in this thread.

Yep and you are one of them...

Please don't try to explain the running of water in the orchards again because reading that bullshit in the first place was brutal enough.

They don't run water for the stored energy from ice jackass.

They run water because the temp of the running water is around 60 degrees in these parts. Hence if you flood an orchard with 60 degree water it is A LOT warmer than the outside enviornment. There's the heat source idiot. They DON'T stop irrigating so ice won't form. They blow air across the water to move the heat around.
Brilliant isn't it.

Why thank you for your well-informed thoughts, Y2K. They were much appreciated. Further, they would be well received and good if it weren't for the little detail that it's not the California orchards we were talking about. Did you misidentify the pic of the ice-covered oranges as jerkovich's glazing on your balls?

Toss another stupid person onto the top of the pile.

Jack, disregard the foaming twat as it is irrelevant.

Where are the Oranges in question ? My clients would like to know.

Dinsdale wrote:

Ken wrote:Couple dumb people up in this thread.

Ken...I understand what you're trying to say...which was something like "in order to achieve a crystalline state, heat/energy must be drawn from water, and part of this 'latent heat' will be absorbed into the orange, while most of it will be absorbed by the air."

Reason you felt the need to go :cuda: up in here?

But a moot point, really...since the reason you spray down fruit to form an ice coating is to protect the fruit from the rapid dehydration that is associated with cold, dry, windy conditions, and has little to do with infusing some latent heat into the orange/fruit to "warm it up."

Yeah, and if you sprayed down the load of shit you just pinched off and let it freeze, it'd still be a load of shit.
I won't doubt that what you outline is another reason for irrigating crops during cold weather, but as far as protecting citrus fruit (last I checked, that's the topic) from subfreezing temps (usually 28 or below), well... you're simply full of peanut riddled shit. Quit fucking applying vintners' methodology to the rest of the horticulture industry's, eh (or more importantly, grape fruit physiology to citrus fruit)? Keep pulling whatever you know from vintners and applying it elsewhere. Maybe it'll work on someone else.

Good idea for a few-hour freeze, worthless for an extended one.

This method proves useful for extended periods of time, even throughout the night, unless the temps dip toooo low.

Cali oranges and ice

What part of this do you not comprehend Kensa?

So as some uninformed Mid American tries to comprehend ice on California Oranges you just pull some random overhead irrigation scenario out of your ass to explain to Mid American that's how we roll out here. I understand your inability to stay on point as throwing random shit out of your overextended rectum like a monkey in a zoo cage is the usual as you practice being smart and shit.

Carry on explaining random shit that has nothing to offer Kensa.

If you keep them confused they might not see the ADD in action.

R-Jack wrote:

Jerkovich wrote:

Ken wrote: FTFM

you know how I know your gay?

You're his bottom?

We have a cherry picker among us.

Really cementing your place atop the 'stupid people' pile, are we, Y2K?

Husker4ever wrote:I heard they hose down the orange groves with water so they WILL freeze like that. Something about putting an (now this sounds insane) INSULATING blanket of ice around the oranges????

I replied as to the real reason for the want for ice formation on citrus fruit. Just bail now.

Ken wrote: I replied as to the real reason for the want for ice formation on citrus fruit.

Latent heat.

Just bail now

And miss out on a riveting argument concerning oranges, irrigation and ice formation.

No way.

Tom In VA wrote:

Ken wrote: I replied as to the real reason for the want for ice formation on citrus fruit.

Latent heat.

RACK the Beaks reset.


"Hold on a second.............: "Fuck Off"

Riveting, indeed.

Ken wrote:Quit fucking applying vintners' methodology to the rest of the horticulture industry's, eh (or more importantly, grape fruit physiology to citrus fruit)?

Uhm...care to cite the last time any wine-producing region(or at least the ones that matter...read "West Coast") ever had to deal with this? Since grapes from Socal to Eastern Washington don't bud until the mean temp cracks 50(early spring, well beyond any threat of frost or ice), and are harvested by early October(except in the case of certain varietals, notably zinfandel), where there's zero threat of freezing. On the rare occasions vinyards that can't take advantage of cold-drainage(those on flat land) fear frost, they use fans to stir the air, which usally prevents the vast majority of unseasonable frost.

So basically...WTF are you talking about with the "vintners' methodology"? Never comes up. And PSSST!!!...when the skins of near-ripe grapes become soaked, they're junk.

BTW -- you think it might be telling of your intellligence, that it's beyond you that anyone could type a description of really basic chemistry without C&Ping it? I guess it suits your frail ego to assume you're the only one here who passed junior high school chemistry class, but I seem to remember that someone here even has a degree in the shit.

So you might rethink the whole "water freezing is rocket science" stance you've taken to make yourself feel significant.

"Only real frozen oranges come from Kalifornia"

"Buy Kalifornia grown!"

mvscal wrote: Just a hint: There is no such thing as "latent heat" nor does freezing "release" this nonexistent heat.
Check back in when you figure what, exactly, heat is.

In his defense...his theory, poorly worded as it was, kind of holds true if the temp of the orange is already below 32. The "heat" from above-freezing water goes somewhere when the water freezes. A potion of this "heat" is transferred inwards, resulting in an ever-so-miniscule warming effect on the orange...note the word "miniscule."

Of course, if the orange is already at or below 32, what's the freaking point, anyway? Oh...it protects the fruit from massive dehydration, due to sealing it from low-humidity, quickly-moving air...which if fruit is to survive a light freeze, it's essential that it not become dehydrated.

Dinsdale wrote:Uhm...care to cite the last time any wine-producing region(or at least the ones that matter...read "West Coast") ever had to deal with this? Since grapes from Socal to Eastern Washington don't bud until the mean temp cracks 50(early spring, well beyond any threat of frost or ice), and are harvested by early October(except in the case of certain varietals, notably zinfandel), where there's zero threat of freezing. On the rare occasions vinyards that can't take advantage of cold-drainage(those on flat land) fear frost, they use fans to stir the air, which usally prevents the vast majority of unseasonable frost.

Don't be dumb. While not common, frosts/freezes to budding vines and maturing grapes in Cali vineyards can and have occured. It is not NEARLY as common in Oregon or Wash vineyards where humidity levels tend to be a bit higher than in much of Cali. If you want proof, you look it up seeing as how it's you that's misinformed.

Also, nice to see you've at least moved past your earlier, ill-conceived abortion of a take.

Dinsdale wrote:Of course, if the orange is already at or below 32, what's the freaking point, anyway?

Well, Einstein, because the sugars and salts that are a component of the fruit's juice LOWER the freezing temperature of said juice... usually by at least several degrees. Just think a bit, eh?

Oh...and this one is actually a C&P from a physics site...

The specific latent heat (L) of a material …
is a measure of the heat energy (Q) per mass (m) released or absorbed during a phase change.
is defined through the formula Q = mL.
is often just called the "latent heat" of the material.
uses the SI unit joule per kilogram [J/kg].

How's it feel to be even dumber than Ken?

mvscal wrote:Just a hint: There is no such thing as "latent heat" nor does freezing "release" this nonexistent heat.

You are unequivocally, 100% imbecile. If it were possible, 110%.
Ignorant douche.

mvscal wrote:

Dinsdale wrote:Oh...and this one is actually a C&P from a physics site...

The specific latent heat (L) of a material …
is a measure of the heat energy (Q) per mass (m) released or absorbed during a phase change.
is defined through the formula Q = mL.
is often just called the "latent heat" of the material.
uses the SI unit joule per kilogram [J/kg].

How's it feel to be even dumber than Ken?

I'll never know.

What Kensa described as "latent heat" does not exist. In fact, he was in his accustomed position...assbackwards.

Like I said, 100% imbecile. Latent heat does in fact exist just as I outlined. I'm actually now leaning towards 110% imbecile.

Ken wrote:Well, Einstein, because the sugars and salts that are a component of the fruit's juice LOWER the freezing temperature of said juice... usually by at least several degrees. Just think a bit, eh?

And this æffects the phase change temperature of irrigation water...how?


Try and follow along...if you'll remember what you typed earlier, the latent heat comes from the water, not the fruit juice...remember? You're not trying to warm up the water, you're trying to warm up the fruit juice.


It's hard to argue with someone who is too busy arguing with themself.

In his defense...his theory, poorly worded as it was, kind of holds true if the temp of the orange is already below 32. The "heat" from above-freezing water goes somewhere when the water freezes. A potion of this "heat" is transferred inwards, resulting in an ever-so-miniscule warming effect on the orange...note the word "miniscule."

Of course, if the orange is already at or below 32, what's the freaking point, anyway?

Oh, that? That's dins implying that there's no point to irrigating once the fruit drops below 32, since... well... he thought the fruit actually froze at that point. Yeah, pretty stupid.

While we're at it...

Oh...it protects the fruit from massive dehydration, due to sealing it from low-humidity, quickly-moving air...which if fruit is to survive a light freeze, it's essential that it not become dehydrated.

There's that line of frozen shit again. You think if you throw it up against T1B's bathroom wall a few more times, it might actually morph into something worthy of consideration? You do understand how inconsequential your theory is seeing as how the last thing an orchardist needs to fret over is fruit dehydration when... now get this, epiphany time, boys and girls... he's already overhead irrigating. Yeah, tough stuff, I know.

Good God, you done yet, dins?

mvscal wrote:

Ken wrote:Latent heat does in fact exist just as I outlined.

Sure it does. I just forgot that I always encase my hands in ice in order to keep them warm on cold, winter days.

Oh dear, Lord. It got worse when I thought the level of idiocy couldn't possibly fall any more.
8th grade Physics dropout, you've already been outted as an imbecile, both here and over there in the NFL forum. You don't matter in this thread any longer.

Ice doesn't "release heat" into the environment...but water does as it freezes. Think about it for a minute or two. In order for water to freeze its temperature has to be lowered. For that to happen, the air around it has to be colder than the water and an amount of heat (energy) is drawn from the water into the surrounding air, or "environment". A lot more heat has to be drawn from the water to go from 32 to 31 (or from liquid to frozen) than from 33 to 32. And I mean A LOT more. This is called the latent heat of fusion. In fact, ice is fairly commonly used as a form of energy storage. You use your chillers to make ice at night time when electric rates are low and melt it to provide space cooling in the daytime when rates are high. If you were just heating and cooling cold water the volume required would be unmanageable.

So, if you spray the fruit with a coating of water, it does provide a certain amount of protection, because a lot of heat has to be given up by the water before it freezes, which happens at 32 degrees, before the fruit's temperature is lowered by a similar amount. And the fruit will stay unfrozen until somewhat below 32 degrees.

Also, the ice does provide a certain amount of insulation and protection. If you think this is bullshit why do you think it's possible to survive a blizzard longer in an ice cave than out in the weather?

Hmmmm?

Of course this protection only works to a certain degree and for a limited amount of time, but it is used to buy time.

Ken wrote: ...the last thing an orchardist needs to fret over is fruit dehydration when... now get this, epiphany time, boys and girls... he's already overhead irrigating.

While I should just be munching popcorn here, (I know Dins is furiously Googling) excuse while I ask a simple little question. And realize, I don't know the answer to this question, that's why I'm asking.

So, your saying that the overhead irrigation penetrates or is absorbed thru the rind of the orange, thus preventing dehydration? Not sure I buy that, Ken. Maybe you can convince me different? I've rinsed off a few oranges under the faucet, and I don't recall any tap-water spilling out after I peeled that Sunkist.

Seems to me that if this were the case (and I'm pleading ignorance here) that the water would expand once it froze and literally burst the fruit from the inside out.

No?

I'll listen for your response, but please don't use the term "latent heat" or "thingy" when referring to freezing water. That just confuses me. I'm wandering why all this latent heat doesn't actually help to prevent potholes on the roads 'round here.

I mean shit, our roads should be smooth as glass after the freeze/thaw/freeze cycle occurs.

Right?

I'm nobody to explain this, I don't have the green thumb nor the mastery of latency that Ken has but ....

As the temp drops water molecules get condensed, they get closer .... they generate more friction with each other (that's the latent homo part) More friction = more heat.


Or something like that.

mvscal wrote:

Mikey wrote:Ice doesn't "release heat" into the environment...but water does as it freezes. Think about it for a minute or two.

OK.

What part of 'net loss of heat' are you struggling to comprehend?

If the temperature is falling:

A. Heat is being lost

B. Heat is being gained

C. All of the above

D. None of the above

Once again, freezing water does not keep oranges warm. The continual application of water that is well above freezing does.

"Think about it for a minute."

No dumb shit, the process of the water freezing keeps the fruit from falling below 32 degrees.

Maybe you should be furiously googling...

(Note that this comes from teh University of Florida Extension. Ground water in the San Joaquin Valley is nowhere near 70 degrees right now. But the latent heat part applies there even moreso since they're not getting as much sensible effect)

Theory of Protection
Water protects young trees by transferring heat to the tree and the environment. The heat is provided from two sources, sensible heat and the latent heat of fusion. Most irrigation water comes out of the ground at 68° to 72°F, depending on the depth of the well. In fact, some artesian wells provide water of 80°F or more. As the water is sprayed into the air, it releases this stored (sensible) heat. However, by the time the water reaches the tree it has lost most of its energy, particularly for low volume microsprinkler systems. Consequently, the major source of heat from irrigation is provided when the water changes to ice (latent heat of fusion). As long as water is constantly changing to ice the temperature of the ice-water mixture will remain at 32°F. The higher the rate of water application to a given area, the greater the amount of heat energy that is applied.
The major problems in the use of irrigation for cold protection occur when inadequate amounts of water are applied or under windy (advective) conditions. Evaporative cooling, which removes 7.5 times the energy added by heat of fusion, may cause severe reductions in temperature under windy conditions, particularly when inadequate amounts of water are used. In addition, most irrigation systems will not protect the upper portion of the canopy.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_CH007

Tom In VA wrote:As the temp drops water molecules get condensed, they get closer

And if they get closer (assuming they stay the same size or contract, seein's how they're gettin' all cozy with each other to keep warm), the overall volume of of the ice should be less than that of the water when it's in its liquid state, correct?

Tell you what - test this hypothesis by filling a glass bottle with water, cap the bottle, then put it in the freezer. Get back to me after the water freezes and the resulting ice takes up less space within the bottle than the water did.

You fucking technical dilettantes should stick to what the fuck you know. Like dripping vag discharges, etc.

Heat of fusion

The heat that is released when liquid water freezes to solid ice is called the heat of fusion. The amount of heat generated when water freezes is 1200 BTUs/gallon or 80 calories/gram of water frozen. As long as enough water is continuously applied to a plant, the heat generated when water freezes can keep the plant at or near 32°F (0°C). This is the principle used by strawberry, fern, or citrus nursery growers when they apply high volumes of water by sprinkler irrigation to protect their plants. At least 0.25 inch/hour or more is required for cold protection. With very low temperatures, low humidity, or high winds, more water must be applied to get adequate protection. Many citrus nurserymen need to apply water at rates of 0.40 inches/hour or higher.

Mikey wrote:

Theory of Protection
Water protects young trees by transferring heat to the tree and the environment. The heat is provided from two sources, sensible heat and the latent heat of fusion. Most irrigation water comes out of the ground at 68° to 72°F, depending on the depth of the well. In fact, some artesian wells provide water of 80°F or more. As the water is sprayed into the air, it releases this stored (sensible) heat. However, by the time the water reaches the tree it has lost most of its energy, particularly for low volume microsprinkler systems. Consequently, the major source of heat from irrigation is provided when the water changes to ice (latent heat of fusion). As long as water is constantly changing to ice the temperature of the ice-water mixture will remain at 32°F. The higher the rate of water application to a given area, the greater the amount of heat energy that is applied.
The major problems in the use of irrigation for cold protection occur when inadequate amounts of water are applied or under windy (advective) conditions. Evaporative cooling, which removes 7.5 times the energy added by heat of fusion, may cause severe reductions in temperature under windy conditions, particularly when inadequate amounts of water are used. In addition, most irrigation systems will not protect the upper portion of the canopy.

Wow, now I feel even dumber. I think I'll go stand in front of the kerosene heater and get me some "sensible heat".

Wait... one more question. Aren't they then spending more in irrigation costs that what the fruit is worth? That has to suck for them.

Mikey wrote:As long as water is constantly changing to ice the temperature of the ice-water mixture will remain at 32°F. The higher the rate of water application to a given area, the greater the amount of heat energy that is applied.

Sounds like what is being said here is ...

mvscal wrote:freezing water does not keep oranges warm. The continual application of water that is well above freezing does.

Are you two in violent agreement with each other?

mvscal wrote:Water doesn't "constantly change into ice" unless you are adding additional energy to the system in the form of more relatively warm water. This "latent heat of fusion" isn't sufficient to prevent water from freezing let alone provide protection to fruit.

Period. EOS

No, not "relatively warm water" dumbshit. Liquid water.

The heat capacity of liquid water is 1Btu/lb-deg F, and the density is 8.3 lb/gal.

The latent heat of fusion is 1200 Btu/lb of water

You would have to lower the temperature of equal amount of water by 1200/8.34/1 = 144 deg F to get the same heat effect as freezing it from liquid to ice.

So, you can STFU now before you make yourself look even more ignorant.

Smackie Chan wrote:

Mikey wrote:As long as water is constantly changing to ice the temperature of the ice-water mixture will remain at 32°F. The higher the rate of water application to a given area, the greater the amount of heat energy that is applied.

Sounds like what is being said here is ...

mvscal wrote:freezing water does not keep oranges warm. The continual application of water that is well above freezing does.

Are you two in violent agreement with each other?

It doesn't have to be "well above freezing" it just has to be liquid.

mvscal wrote:

Mikey wrote:No, not "relatively warm water" dumbshit. Liquid water.

UNCLE

You've been outed as a backpedaling pussy.

mvscal wrote:This might be the dumbest argument in the history of the internet or possibly even all time. We're talking about ice here, you fucking moron. Ice does not release heat into the environment. If it did, we would grill steaks over ice cubes instead of cooling our beverages with them. Nor does water dropping in temperature from 50 to 32 degrees keep oranges warm. The plummeting temperature should be your first clue that you are experiencing a net loss in heat.

Time to face facts here, kid. You aren't and never will be considered even remotely intelligent by any form of multi-cellular life.

Oh hi, thread douchebag. Still ravingly stupid I see? It's pretty clear that you just don't get it. If you haven't up to this point, even after several of us have spelled it out so simply that dins' pinched-loaf for a take, in all it's coiled glory, could understand it.
One more try. Not necessarily to explain it, but to give some concrete evidence (no, not your head) that as water freezes, it releases heat.

Psssssst... did you know that a freezer actually has to work at expelling heat from within as it freezes water into ice cubes? Expelling heat to the tune of 80 calories of heat per gram of water, to be exact (Yeah, I looked that up). Wonder why? Pretty deep shit, I know.

War Wagon wrote:

Ken wrote: ...the last thing an orchardist needs to fret over is fruit dehydration when... now get this, epiphany time, boys and girls... he's already overhead irrigating.

While I should just be munching popcorn here, (I know Dins is furiously Googling) excuse while I ask a simple little question. And realize, I don't know the answer to this question, that's why I'm asking.

So, your saying that the overhead irrigation penetrates or is absorbed thru the rind of the orange, thus preventing dehydration? Not sure I buy that, Ken. Maybe you can convince me different? I've rinsed off a few oranges under the faucet, and I don't recall any tap-water spilling out after I peeled that Sunkist.

No, that's not what I'm saying.
Heeeeeeey, wait a minute, are you mvscal?

This is common sense, WW. How is an orange going to dehydrate when water is constantly applied to the outside of it? Seriously. Going to go scientific on you here... transpiration is the loss of water from a plant or fruit via evaporation from the leaves, fruit, etc. As an aside, it is this transpiration that is the driving force behind the uptake of water through the roots by a plant. Anyways...Transiprational rate is entirely a function of the difference in humidty from the inside of the leaf to the outside of the environment (and wind speed over the leaf or fruit). The greater the difference, the higher the rate of transpiration, or as dins likes to call it, dehydration. Hmmmmm, what could we use to reduce this humidity gradient? Hey, how 'bout WATER? Really, common sense though if you think about it.

mvscal wrote:

Mikey wrote:You would have to lower the temperature of equal amount of water by 1200/8.34/1 = 144 deg F to get the same heat effect as freezing it from liquid to ice.

Which means absolutely nothing in agricultural terms. This only happens at the instant of freezing and the only way you can sustain that instant is too add more warm water.

Like I said, backpedaling.

mvscal wrote:Water doesn't "constantly change into ice" unless you are adding additional energy to the system in the form of more relatively warm water. This "latent heat of fusion" isn't sufficient to prevent water from freezing let alone provide protection to fruit.

Period. EOS

As I've just shown in engineering terms (which I don't blame you for not understanding, them being all technical and stuff), if you spray 55 degree water (a 13 degree temperature drop to 32) the temperature drop will have less than 1/10 the effect of the phase change. Of course liquid water is "relatively warmer" than ice, even at 33 degrees dumbfuck, but the benefit of the phase change is at least an order of magnitude more important than the "warmer" part.

mvscal wrote:

Mikey wrote:No, not "relatively warm water" dumbshit. Liquid water.

Which is relatively warmer than frozen or freezing water. Thanks for playing. You may go.

Mikey, it's now a trolljob.
While pretty fucking stupid, mvscal isn't THIS stupid

I pray.

Mikey wrote: As I've just shown in engineering terms (which I don't blame you for not understanding, them being all technical and stuff), if you spray 55 degree water (a 13 degree temperature drop to 32)

I'm so confused, with you guys talking all over my head and stuff, maybe I should
go watch AI.