T1B

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:
It's utter bullshit.



Yeah...quite the worker's paradise...

Uh-oh. Now you've done it...

mvscal wrote:

PSUFAN wrote:Here's what sucks about our health care system in a nutshell...it is set up so that execs who seemingly add very little value to the system can bleed the system of funds for their insanely bloated compensation packages.

I'm not claiming that socializing medicine would change that in any shape or form...just that the real enemy lies in the waste that goes on at the top.

Executive compensation doesn't have shit to do with healthcare costs.

Didn't you all get the memo? Executives can do no wrong & cost nothing.

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:
You know what happens when people don't have to pay for their own health care bills? They overload the frigging system with every piddly-ass twinge or cough. We see that already with uninsured people deliberately abusing the system by taking themselves or their family members to the ER for crap like colds, since they know that the hospital will have to eat the tab in NY. Those selfish fucking morons are the reason why you have to sit in the waiting room for four hours with a broken arm. I have several friends who are docs who see this crap all the time and bitch about it.

What a load of complete shit.

So 'Wheezy Welfare McSniffles' is getting service in an ER before 'Mr. Hardworking Cashbox' with a broken arm, eh? So how might public medicine be responsible for ER triage assessment?

There is absolutely NOTHING that would lead me to believe that more government (or "central") control of health care would lead to greater efficiency, greater innovation in patient care/medical technology, or greater access to care.

One example would be the Canadian system, thr guidelines to the Canadian health act are as follows:

1. Accessibility
2. Universality
3. Comprehensiveness
4. Portability
5. Publicly Administered

As interpreted by the government:

All Canadians (universal), wherever they travel throughout the country (portability), must be able to access a medically necessary (comprehensive) set of health services which must be provided by an organization accountable to government (public administration) with no regard to their ability to pay (accessibility).

Now that ^^^ doesn't specify who has to own the actual facilities or how the health professionals must be paid. So what we have is a system of socialised health insurance as opposed to socialised medicine, it's distinct from the NHS in Britain, where health professionals are essentially employees of the state. (inferior IMHO - the NHS is more effective than Canada or the US.)

Now then, this system allows us to capitalise on the economies of scale in insurance markets: the larger the pool of insured, the cheaper it is for each.
The 'single payer' or 'single insurer' set up also allows substantial savings on administration costs. As such, the country is able to provide insurance to our entire population at a fraction of the cost the United States pays to insure a fraction of its population. And we do it with as good or better outcomes.

Fuck socialized medicine.

Christ, what next...an inalienable right to cable TV, internet, a car.....

Frig you. Work, earn money, and PAY FOR the stuff. No frigging "freebies" on my dime.

And Fuck You.

I wouldn't equate the desire for cancer treatment, or a brain tumor removal to wanting to watch television.

I'd like to congratulate you fucks.

You solved the American health care system and we are on our way to making it the greatest system in the world.

Thanks for your thread, our scholars will save it into their system and study it for generations to come.

Martyred wrote:So, now the care and recovery of maimed vets = Stalinism?

You numbskulls are truly out to lunch.

Veterans aren't being systematically murdered, so their care desn't come anywhere close to being Stalinism

overload the frigging system

Interesting little couplet there.

What overload of the system is more odious - that of people seeking care, or a small closed group of individuals extracting hundreds of millions as compensation?

sure, that cash is just...extra...

mvscal, when a health care corporation profits, who gets a raise?

Where does that money come from?

PSUFAN wrote:mvscal, when a health care corporation profits, who gets a raise?

The real estate market and luxury car dealerships.

mvscal wrote:

PSUFAN wrote:mvscal, when a health care corporation profits, who gets a raise?

Where does that money come from?

By all means go ahead and research that too that while you're looking for an analysis of rising health care costs that demonstrates that executive compensation is responsible for it.

you offer your three and three yet?

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:Doctors have very large student loans and insurance bills to pay.

So do lawyers. That doesn't stop our clients from wanting something for nothing, however.

Dr_Phibes wrote:

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:
You know what happens when people don't have to pay for their own health care bills? They overload the frigging system with every piddly-ass twinge or cough. We see that already with uninsured people deliberately abusing the system by taking themselves or their family members to the ER for crap like colds, since they know that the hospital will have to eat the tab in NY. Those selfish fucking morons are the reason why you have to sit in the waiting room for four hours with a broken arm. I have several friends who are docs who see this crap all the time and bitch about it.

What a load of complete shit.

Really, clueless one? I frigging worked at an American medical center for 11 years. My cousin Don was the chief attending at a hospital in Hartford, CT (which is like a frigging war zone). One of my current best friends is a GP working out of Tri-County Medical in Dansville, Livingston County. And what is one of the stories we all share? How we've had to deal with or witness 'po folk' abusing the requirement that hospitals treat -gratis- uninsured folk who stroll into the ER. The frigging druggies, hookers, and welfare folks all know to stop by Strong memorial, Highland, Rochester General, or Noyes Memorial for every damned ache, sore throat, or fever...'cuz the government REQUIRES hospitals to treat them in the ER regardless of ability to pay. The hospital winds up eating the costs, and this ties up the docs, nurses, and techs who should be dealing with TRUE emergencies...from PAYING customers (yeah, that last one will stick in your craw, but FUCK YOU...hospitals are a BUSINESS).

For you, a clueless Canuck, to attempt to lecture me on the subject is the height of your typical, ignorant arrogance. You've proven time and again that every damed time you hit the "submit" key in reference to an issue in America, you display your ignorance for all to see. You get your info from webpages. I got mine from actually WORKING in a frigging hospital and still knowing an talking to people who ARE American doctors.

The Canadian system is a frigging mess. Heard that time and again whilst in Toronto and Niagara-On-The-Lake talking with the locals. Yeah, that's anecdotal, but the fact that middle-to-upper-class Canucks would be bitching says a lot to me. They come to the States for the "latest-greatest" care....

As for whether or not the American system is "unfair:"

Neither I nor anyone I've ever met has had a problem getting health care, medical tests, etc. I live in an incredibly rural county and I've got four hospitals (named earlier) within 40 minutes of my house, plus an urgent care center within 5 minutes of my house. I teach at one of the two poorest school districts in that county (the "jockeying for #1 shifts between us and another district...but we're still a federally-designated "school of poverty") and still have enough of a health plan to have never had a problem for getting care for my wife or two young kids.

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:Neither I nor anyone I've ever met has had a problem getting health care, medical tests, etc. I live in an incredibly rural county and I've got four hospitals (named earlier) within 40 minutes of my house, plus an urgent care center within 5 minutes of my house. I teach at one of the two poorest school districts in that county (the "jockeying for #1 shifts between us and another district...but we're still a federally-designated "school of poverty") and still have enough of a health plan to have never had a problem for getting care for my wife or two young kids.

Mike, you're a straight up guy and I have no reason to doubt what you say here. Having said that, however, health insurance is not so easy to obtain for every segment of society. Health insurance is not so readily obtainable for many people, even some with jobs. The law firm I work for does not offer health insurance. I could get it through the Bar Association, but would have to pay almost $1,000 a month to cover my entire family that way. Fortunately, it is available to my wife at her job for quite a bit less than that, but the rates are constantly increasing nonetheless. I don't know what I'd do for health insurance if I were to get divorced. I'd probably have to go without, at least for a little while.

There's a reason the ranks of the uninsured are growing steadily. It ain't just the so-called "po folk" anymore.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:Mike, you're a straight up guy and I have no reason to doubt what you say here. Having said that, however, health insurance is not so easy to obtain for every segment of society. Health insurance is not so readily obtainable for many people, even some with jobs. The law firm I work for does not offer health insurance. I could get it through the Bar Association, but would have to pay almost $1,000 a month to cover my entire family that way. Fortunately, it is available to my wife at her job for quite a bit less than that, but the rates are constantly increasing nonetheless. I don't know what I'd do for health insurance if I were to get divorced. I'd probably have to go without, at least for a little while.

There's a reason the ranks of the uninsured are growing steadily. It ain't just the so-called "po folk" anymore.

I don't doubt that some people are having a hard time getting health insurance...but my points to the socialist freaks are that the Canuck system is no prize and that, contrary to Phib's assertion, there ARE a assload of people deliberately misusing the system to get free treatment on non-emergency care. I saw it regularly working at URMC/Strong and hear about it from my MD cousin and my MD/nursing friends even now.

And Martard's assinine and utterly unfounded assertion that an "average factory worker" in N. Korea gets better health care than "the vast majority of Americans" deserved the smack I gave it. I'm a frigging public school teacher in a poor, rural district with a hell of a lot of ESL/ELL migrant families...and yet, my small district somehow manages to help me obtain reasonable health insurance which covers me at area hospitals that outclass anything found in North Korea.

mvscal wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote: Health insurance is not so readily obtainable for many people

Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Why would we even want the dregs of society living longer anyway? What benefit does society derive from this additional dead weight?

^^^^^^^

...culture of life...

Well as long as they're not fetuses, fuck 'em.

Martyred wrote:

mvscal wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote: Health insurance is not so readily obtainable for many people

Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Why would we even want the dregs of society living longer anyway? What benefit does society derive from this additional dead weight?

^^^^^^^

...culture of life...

Well as long as they're not fetuses, fuck 'em.

Rack.

Martyred wrote:

mvscal wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote: Health insurance is not so readily obtainable for many people

Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Why would we even want the dregs of society living longer anyway? What benefit does society derive from this additional dead weight?

^^^^^^^

...culture of life...

Well as long as they're not fetuses, fuck 'em.

I give mvscal a lot of credit for being one of the rare honest Republicans.

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:I don't doubt that some people are having a hard time getting health insurance...but my points to the socialist freaks are that the Canuck system is no prize and that, contrary to Phib's assertion, there ARE a assload of people deliberately misusing the system to get free treatment on non-emergency care.

Mike,

They are not misusing the system, they are using the system the only way they can. Like it or not, if a crack whore gets sick, she still is going to need medical attention. So, if the only way to get that attention is via a hospital emergency room, then that is what she is going to do. You can call it misuse, but that is exactly the level of care the law allows for. Trust me, if they could afford to go to a doctor, they would. God knows nobody goes to a Rochester area ER because it is their first choice. So, unless you're willing to take mvscal's stance that the poor should die in the streets for lack of medical care, I'm at a loss for what should be done short of mandated universal health insurance.

The thread is sidetracked, but it's very interesting discussion.
Health care is a huge issue.

What ails America is spiritual, and the Christian Church in the U.S. is a failure.
To get to a solution America will need to be re-evangelized with the Gospel, which has been lost, ignored, or totally diminished.
That's all for the theology forum though, so I'll offer up my 3 domestic steps -- which, absent the above, are really band aid solutions.


Savage has it right.
Borders, language, culture.

1. Culture - Liberal Supreme Court Justices would be immediately replaced with conservative judges. Of critical importance would be appointing those who understand the words written in the first amendment.

2. Borders - Use all necessary resources to build the wall on the southern border ASAP. In the mean time, as many military and guard units as possible need to be stationed at the border with orders to shoot to kill. Enough fuckin' around. The open border is KILLING this country. Bushice is right. We need to seal the country as best we can. Ports, airports, immigration laws, etc ....

3. Language - English only. Nothing governement sponosored will be dual language. Private businesses can do as they please, but anything the gov's hands are on is english only.

Three Foreign policy moves to come.



RACK Bri's last take, btw.

BSmack wrote:

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:I don't doubt that some people are having a hard time getting health insurance...but my points to the socialist freaks are that the Canuck system is no prize and that, contrary to Phib's assertion, there ARE a assload of people deliberately misusing the system to get free treatment on non-emergency care.

Mike,

They are not misusing the system, they are using the system the only way they can. Like it or not, if a crack whore gets sick, she still is going to need medical attention. So, if the only way to get that attention is via a hospital emergency room, then that is what she is going to do. You can call it misuse, but that is exactly the level of care the law allows for. Trust me, if they could afford to go to a doctor, they would. God knows nobody goes to a Rochester area ER because it is their first choice. So, unless you're willing to take mvscal's stance that the poor should die in the streets for lack of medical care, I'm at a loss for what should be done short of mandated universal health insurance.

why should i pay for her medical when she gets to spend her money on crack? srsly.

titlover wrote:

BSmack wrote:Mike,

They are not misusing the system, they are using the system the only way they can. Like it or not, if a crack whore gets sick, she still is going to need medical attention. So, if the only way to get that attention is via a hospital emergency room, then that is what she is going to do. You can call it misuse, but that is exactly the level of care the law allows for. Trust me, if they could afford to go to a doctor, they would. God knows nobody goes to a Rochester area ER because it is their first choice. So, unless you're willing to take mvscal's stance that the poor should die in the streets for lack of medical care, I'm at a loss for what should be done short of mandated universal health insurance.

why should i pay for her medical when she gets to spend her money on crack? srsly.

Then you would be on the mvscal side of the issue.

Tell me, are you a Christian?

bwahahahahahahahahaha


Go BSmack go.




Maroon.

BSmack wrote:

titlover wrote:

BSmack wrote:Mike,

They are not misusing the system, they are using the system the only way they can. Like it or not, if a crack whore gets sick, she still is going to need medical attention. So, if the only way to get that attention is via a hospital emergency room, then that is what she is going to do. You can call it misuse, but that is exactly the level of care the law allows for. Trust me, if they could afford to go to a doctor, they would. God knows nobody goes to a Rochester area ER because it is their first choice. So, unless you're willing to take mvscal's stance that the poor should die in the streets for lack of medical care, I'm at a loss for what should be done short of mandated universal health insurance.

why should i pay for her medical when she gets to spend her money on crack? srsly.

Then you would be on the mvscal side of the issue.

Tell me, are you a Christian?

What a fucking hypocrite you are Bri, calling titlover to task when you yourself Willie Horton-ed up this thread with this:

" Like it or not, if a crack whore gets sick, she still is going to need medical attention."


Go hug your life-size, inflatable Rumsfeld doll.

poptart wrote: To get to a solution America will need to be re-evangelized with the Gospel.

I don't agree.

Feel free to post your own steps any time.

poptart wrote: 2. Borders - Use all necessary resources to build the wall on the southern border ASAP. In the mean time, as many military and guard units as possible need to be stationed at the border with orders to shoot to kill. Enough fuckin' around. The open border is KILLING this country. Bushice is right. We need to seal the country as best we can. Ports, airports, immigration laws, etc ....

ponderous.

don't you think tighten the thumbscrews to companies that hire illegals would work better? all you have to do is set-up a social security notification system to make sure illegals aren't using doctored documents. of curse, cargill would have to pay their workers minimum wage, but I think america spending an extra dime per chicken nugget would be cheaper than building fortresses on the border.

Bizzarofelice wrote:don't you think tighten the thumbscrews to companies that hire illegals would work better?

I don't think so.

The illegals are sucking off many more tits than just the 'companies' that you are saying we would have to watchdog much more closely.

The problem needs to be stopped at the source, and that source is a virtually open border.

tighten the thumbscrews to companies that hire illegals

Link?

Yep, I thought not. Lots of tough talk, but no (0) action.

The "source"?

You don't think that employers are the "source" of the problem?

They happen to be the thing that we have the most potential control over.

Employers beckon with cash, workers follow.

If we disdain workers for illegally working, why don't we do the same for employers who give them the opportunity?

Look, one of the reasons why the Bush Administration hasn't done anything to secure the border, or why they flirt with "immigration reform", is because they don't want to prevent employers from accessing cheap, tax-free labor. You know it, I know it...etc.

Getting tough with illegals...good luck. You'll have much better luck (if you're really serious about this issue) going after those folks who are snidely availing themselves of the resource. All of the "tough talk" has been a load of BULLSHIT.

Martyred wrote:What a fucking hypocrite you are Bri, calling titlover to task when you yourself Willie Horton-ed up this thread with this:

" Like it or not, if a crack whore gets sick, she still is going to need medical attention."

Go hug your life-size, inflatable Rumsfeld doll.

If you suck dick for crack, you are a crack whore. It is not a Willie Horton move to call a crack whore a crack whore, it is simple honesty. A Willie Horton move would have been to post a picture of the skankiest possible crack whore (preferably a mean ass looking black woman) and use that imagery in such a way that she represents the personal moral failings of all Americans without proper health care.

Companies pay taxes, FICA SUI FUI whatever, on people that will never receive these benefits. Lots of fake documents out there, and the company hiring the illegal worker will never know.

Government should have some sort of system asking the question, "why are there 2,000 people paying into the system under the same Social Security number"? For some reason they don't.

Because that's the tough part of the fight...the part that everyone is more comfortable dodging and Bugbearing.

It's much easier to light a torch, get together a posse, and make ineffectual mob noise when leading up to election.

Bizzarofelice wrote:Companies pay taxes, FICA SUI FUI whatever, on people that will never receive these benefits. Lots of fake documents out there, and the company hiring the illegal worker will never know.

Government should have some sort of system asking the question, "why are there 2,000 people paying into the system under the same Social Security number"? For some reason they don't.

They do have a system.

When the IB's at Social Security find a mis-matched number, they hold any funds deposited to it in a suspense account and notify the employer of the wrong number and order them to correct it. It isn't that a shit load of wetbacks are using the same SS number, it's usually the case that they're stealing somebody else's SS# and using that. And in some cases, they just fucking make up a SS#.

mvscal wrote:
It requires both cracking down on employers (by cracking down I mean ten years in federal prison and forfeiture of their business) and sealing the borders and by sealing the borders I mean constructing the fence and backing it with military force and shoot to kill orders against any personnel found in the security zone.

The third step is to apprehend, imprison and eventually repatriate all illegal immigrants and finally
we eliminate all public assistance for able bodied individuals save for a one time only LOAN of $2,000 to cover moving expenses to the nearest lettuce patch. The money to be recovered by wage garnishment.

^^^^^totally agree.....

meanwhile, the Feds are taking a different kind of "get tough" approach

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,260501,00.html

there isn't a rolleye big enough.....

BSmack wrote:

titlover wrote:

BSmack wrote:Mike,

They are not misusing the system, they are using the system the only way they can. Like it or not, if a crack whore gets sick, she still is going to need medical attention. So, if the only way to get that attention is via a hospital emergency room, then that is what she is going to do. You can call it misuse, but that is exactly the level of care the law allows for. Trust me, if they could afford to go to a doctor, they would. God knows nobody goes to a Rochester area ER because it is their first choice. So, unless you're willing to take mvscal's stance that the poor should die in the streets for lack of medical care, I'm at a loss for what should be done short of mandated universal health insurance.

why should i pay for her medical when she gets to spend her money on crack? srsly.

Then you would be on the mvscal side of the issue.

Tell me, are you a Christian?

raised but not practicing. why can't local welfare be paid for with donations instead of fucking federal $$?

then all you lefties who love the poor can give as much as you want.

When the IB's at Social Security

laughing

Cuda wrote: notify the employer of the wrong number and order them to correct it.

But INS should be "correcting" it. INS should know something is up, instead of the employer being forced to fire the person and the illegal goes back into the American street.

titlover wrote:then all you lefties who love the poor can give as much as you want.

no problem. they'll bust into your house and take the donation

titlover wrote:raised but not practicing. why can't local welfare be paid for with donations instead of fucking federal $$?

then all you lefties who love the poor can give as much as you want.

If we extend the same concept to defense contractors and agribusiness, you've got a deal.

mvscal wrote:National defense is a Constitutionally mandated expense and is a proper function of government.

Solving personal problems for the dregs of society is not.

Then perhaps the government should nationalize the defense industry. After all, it is a proper function of government.

mvscal wrote:National defense is a Constitutionally mandated expense and is a proper function of government.

Solving personal problems for the dregs of society is not.

Since our executive branch is top-heavy with Chickenhawks, the welfare of the underclass is indeed in our interests. The military must be foddered by said underclass, so, better feed them.

Bizzarofelice wrote:

When the IB's at Social Security

laughing

Cuda wrote: notify the employer of the wrong number and order them to correct it.

But INS should be "correcting" it. INS should know something is up, instead of the employer being forced to fire the person and the illegal goes back into the American street.

INS has nothing to do with Social Security. They're not even in the loop. They only come in when somebody files a complaint