Pat Tillman cover up - discussion please

[Goober McTuber]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The last soldier to see Army Ranger Pat Tillman alive, Spc. Bryan O'Neal, told lawmakers that he was warned by superiors not to divulge -- especially to the Tillman family -- that a fellow soldier killed Tillman.

O'Neal particularly wanted to tell fellow soldier Kevin Tillman, who was in the convoy traveling behind his brother at the time of the 2004 incident in Afghanistan.

"I wanted right off the bat to let the family know what had happened, especially Kevin, because I worked with him in a platoon and I knew that he and the family all needed to know what had happened," O'Neal testified. "I was quite appalled that when I was actually able to speak with Kevin, I was ordered not to tell him."

Asked who gave him the order, O'Neal replied that it came from his battalion commander, then-Lt. Col. Jeff Bailey.

"He basically just said ..., 'Do not let Kevin know, that he's probably in a bad place knowing his brother's dead,' " O'Neal told House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Henry Waxman. "And he made it known I would get in trouble, sir, if I spoke with Kevin on it being fratricide."

The military instead released a "manufactured narrative" detailing how Pat Tillman died leading a courageous counterattack in an Afghan mountain pass, Kevin Tillman told the committee.

Kevin Tillman said the military tried to spin his brother's death to deflect attention from emerging failings in the Afghanistan war.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/04/24/ ... index.html

[Mister Bushice]

and more importantly, I'm pretty sure Bushice doesn't allow Whitesnake lyrics in this forum.

I'll give it a pass this time, since my band is learning to play this song to play for Raiduh Jimmys upcoming hair jelly party. It was his special request. :)

[Felix]

^^^^^^ So the Army told lies in order to spare the feelings of the Tillman's....

you fuggin crack me up sometimes mvs.....

[Cuda]

Nice job, meltscal.

[PSUFAN]

Rack "dear sir/maam".

[Tom In VA]

Indeed

[Felix]

Did I say that?

well, not in so many words....but when you post this tripe....

There is a pretty goddamn good reason why little white lies such as these have practiced by every military establishment in history.

followed by some graphic description of a guy getting blown up...I just connected the dots.....

I love the fact you consider this to be nothing more than a "little white lie"......man, I'd hate to see what you consider to be an "important" lie...

never mind, I already know...Clinton got a blowjob......

[Tom In VA]

never mind, I already know...Clinton got a blowjob......

What Hillary does with her penis is none our business.

[Cuda]

IKYABWAI

[PSUFAN]

m2 has the CFB board bitch title locked up for the foreseeable future.

CTRL-Cuddles has earned the slot for this forum - earned it gleefully.

[Felix]

That's right. You know why? He's fucking dead. Go ahead rehash old news with yet another investigation. He'll still be dead.

nice deflection...this has everything to do with why the Army lied to the Tillman's and virtually nothing to do with the fact Tillman was killed by friendly fire....why are you having such a tough time grasping this very basic concept.....

It doesn't make a shit of difference whether he got his head blown off by his own while trying to undick a fucked up situation or got his head blown off by enemy fire.

you're right...it doesn't make a bit of difference...dead is dead......but what makes a difference, and the reason the Tillman's are pursuing it is why did the Army feel it necessary to lie to them......it wasn't a mistake, it wasn't misinformation, it was a deliberate lie.....

He was still killed in the line of duty which is the only thing the family needs to know. You, personally, don't need to know anything at all. You aren't involved.

the Tillman's and I have every right to know what the Armed Services are doing and not doing in my name....if they kill a bunch of innocent civilians I have the right to know that.....if they mistakenly blow up somebodys house, I have every right to know that....if they intentionally lie to the family of a slain soldier, well I've got the right to know that as well....these aren't military secrets that would endanger the lives of other soldiers, these are colossal fuck-ups the military is trying to sweep under the rug.....they are accountable to me and every other American......

we're the ones footing the bill......

[Cuda]

[PSUFAN]

Cudes...did they send you the Key to Kansas City yet?

[Mike the Lab Rat]

the Tillman's and I have every right to know what the Armed Services are doing and not doing in my name....

As a point of fact, you have no such right. You never have and never will.

Wrongo.

The military is the servant of the civilians in this country.

The military is rightfully under CIVILIAN control. They work for US, the "We the People." They are, each and every one of them, from the lowest grunt to the highest general/admiral/CoC an employee of the citizens of the Republic. Period.

They DO owe the citizens of this nation an explanation because they work for US. The military is not some special elite group that gets to make shit up as they go along, disregard the truth or procedures just because they find it inconvenient, or show contempt or arrogance for their civilian BOSSES. They are employees. We, as their bosses, demand accountability. Period. Case frigging closed.

Them's the facts, Sparky. Your having been a member of that club doesn't change that fact, no matter how much crap you like to throw around this monkey cage.

[Felix]

I don't give a flying fuck about the Tillman's or what they were told. They don't matter.

The only thing that matters is that the Army understands what went wrong with that mission, why it went wrong and that the unit has tightened their act up to keep it from happening again and those details don't concern you, me or the Tillman family.

uh they might not matter to you, but last time I checked in the final analysis you're opinion doesn't carry much sway.....

you seem to be advocating that the military is not accountable to anyone....

try selling that horseshit somewhere else.......as long as the information doesn't endanger other soldiers or compromise classified information, they're accountable to me and every other American....

[Mike the Lab Rat]

It's funnier than hell to me when guys who were in the military try to argue that they have powers, rights, etc. beyond those of us "clueless" civilians just because......they were in that club. Bullshit. You were a soldier, not a frigging Jedi.

Most of the guys I know who are vets (including my dad, who is a Marine) did their service for honorable reasons. I will not, for a second, begrudge mvscal the honor he rightfully earned through his service to our nation, and I thank him for his service.

HOWEVER, arguing that the military is somehow above and beyond civilian control is fucking arrogant. The Founders of our Republic were 100% correct to be distrustful of a standing army. In our Republic, the military is the servant of the people, regardless of what the military (or its alumni) likes to think. When the military starts believing that it somehow doesn't have to answer to Congress or the people, we should be damned worried.

[Felix]

You aren't in the chain of command, douchebag. What part of that are you struggling to comprehend?

they work for me asshole...

which part of that are you having difficulty with......

[Mike the Lab Rat]

as long as the information doesn't endanger other soldiers or compromise classified information, they're accountable to me and every other American....

You aren't in the chain of command, douchebag. What part of that are you struggling to comprehend?

The American people ARE in the "chain of command," "douchebag." Our way of controlling the military is a civilian entity called "Congress." When "clueless dumbfucks" in the military (and their arrogant alumni) insist on striking a "who does this Congressman/Senator think he is questioning THE MILITARY," they show their Constitutional ignorance and a flagrant disregard for our country. The military serves the public of the United States. Period, It serves no other purpose.

Your childish defense of tyranny is ridiculous. Then again, you belong to incredibly deep "might makes right" school of political thought, so I guess your dismissal of civilian control of the military is par for the idiotic course.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

I didn't say that, dumbfuck.

What I said is that YOU, as private citizen, have been given no right either implicitly or explicitly to know what the military is doing.

Bullshit. I, through my representatives in Congress, have the right to demand the truth. If the Tillmans bend the ear of Congress and as a result, hearings are held and the military is asked questions, they must answer.

Period.

Soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines answer to their superiors who ultimately answer to their service secretaries who answer to the SoD who keeps Congress informed of their doings.

Note that YOU are not involved in this process at any point for any reason.

Apparently you aren't educated with regard to how representative democracy works, dumbfuck.

If we, poor, clueless civilians, get pissed off enough about what the military is doing, we contact our CIVILIAN representatives in the House and/or Senate, who do our bidding (as we elected them to do). If they, on OUR CIVILIAN behalf call the military to the carpet, the military is duty-bound to answer OUR requests, as given by OUR CIVILIAN REPRESENTATIVES.

What part of civics class did you NOT sleep through?

[Mike the Lab Rat]

I hate to burst your bubble, but it isn't a crime to lie to the public.

It is when "the public" = Congress.

Peddle your "military exceptionalism" bullshit someplace else. This ain't Sparta.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

we contact our CIVILIAN representatives in the House and/or Senate, who do our bidding (as we elected them to do).

Goddamn, put the pipe down. Your representative will do your bidding if it is politically expedient for him to do so. Most likely you will receive a form letter thanking you for your concern.

Well, if enough American CIVILIANS get pissed off, it becomes "politically expedient" for my representatives to do exactly what they HAVE been doing - demanding accountability from the military.

You seem to believe that citizens have no say. I argue that when the civilians as a group get angry enough and/or the RIGHT civilians (e.g., the Tillmans) get angry enough, it DOES become "politically expedient" for Congress to call the military (and the President) to the carpet. You and Dick Cheney seem to have a contempt for civilian authority. Tough shit. Cheney is a demented, evil asshole who hasn't done shit for anyone but himself and who obviously has no regard for American ideals. The guy seems to consider the citizens as intrusive meddlers, instead of his employers. You?....you're just batshit crazy.

Wake up, guy. You're a fucking nobody. If you're lucky, your kids might do your bidding.

Keep telling yourself that. But this "nobody" honestly buys into the whole "American Republic" thing and utterly despises the military-gets-to-do-whatever-it-wants-'cuz-might-makes-right horsecrap that you're espousing. And as a teacher, I think I have at least a bit more of an impact than some schlub working in a burger joint.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

You have an almost comically exaggerated sense of your own individual entitlement.

And you have an exaggerated sense of what the government and the military can and should do. You seem to have completely forgotten that they both exist only to serve the people. I've found that this is a common trait among self-important vets. You think you're members of an elite club that somehow managed to "earn" a special privileged outlook on how the government is/should be. It's also the main reason that people have a natural distrust of the military.

I, on the other hand, have been goofy enough to buy into the writings of nutjobs like Madison and Jefferson. It's not a sense of "individual entitlement"...it's an optimism that the intent of our Founders can overcome the militaristic chest-thumping of neo-Spartan cynics who find civilian demands for accountability to be "meddling."

[Dr_Phibes]

No, I understand precisely how it works and I've accepted that. You, on the other hand, have a childishly naive view of how you think it should work which explains your unending frustration with reality.

rack

[RadioFan]

I think I figured out what mvscal does for a living ... PR for the military.

[titlover]

as long as the information doesn't endanger other soldiers or compromise classified information, they're accountable to me and every other American....

You aren't in the chain of command, douchebag. What part of that are you struggling to comprehend?

The American people ARE in the "chain of command," "douchebag." Our way of controlling the military is a civilian entity called "Congress." When "clueless dumbfucks" in the military (and their arrogant alumni) insist on striking a "who does this Congressman/Senator think he is questioning THE MILITARY," they show their Constitutional ignorance and a flagrant disregard for our country. The military serves the public of the United States. Period, It serves no other purpose.

Your childish defense of tyranny is ridiculous. Then again, you belong to incredibly deep "might makes right" school of political thought, so I guess your dismissal of civilian control of the military is par for the idiotic course.

I guarenfucking tee you that COngress is NOT in the chain of command. the Pres is at the top and Congress is nowhere under him.

sorry dawg.

[RadioFan]

I guarenfucking tee you that COngress is NOT in the chain of command. the Pres is at the top and Congress is nowhere under him.

sorry dawg.

The secretary of defense is a civilian, mensa. And I'm fairly certain the chairman of the Joint Chiefs requires Senate approval as well.

Oh, and not to mention the tens of thousands of civilian defense contractors, being funded with hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollers. There is that.

[titlover]

I guarenfucking tee you that COngress is NOT in the chain of command. the Pres is at the top and Congress is nowhere under him.

sorry dawg.

The secretary of defense is a civilian, mensa. And I'm fairly certain the chairman of the Joint Chiefs requires Senate approval as well.

Oh, and not to mention the tens of thousands of civilian defense contractors, being funded with hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollers. There is that.

is the Sec Def a member of Congress, MENSA? what a stupid point.

Congressional approval doesn't mean Congress themselves are in the chain of command anywhere. not one fucknig congressman is in the chain of command anywhere. there is exactly ONE Commander in Chief.

[BSmack]

I guarenfucking tee you that COngress is NOT in the chain of command. the Pres is at the top and Congress is nowhere under him.

sorry dawg.

The US Constitution says you're full of shit. Here's the relevant portions of Article 1, Section 7&8.

Section 7. All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills...

...To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

It's representative democracy in action. Deal with it.

[Mikey]

I guarenfucking tee you that COngress is NOT in the chain of command. the Pres is at the top and Congress is nowhere under him.

sorry dawg.

The US Constitution says you're full of shit. Here's the relevant portions of Article 1, Section 7&8.


It's representative democracy in action. Deal with it.

Lissen dipshit. If Dubya says he's The Decider, then he's The Decider.

EOS

Deal with it.

[BSmack]

The US Constitution says you're full of shit. Here's the relevant portions of Article 1, Section 7&8.

None of which place the Legislative branch in the chain of command.

You're an idiot. Deal with it.

The idiot is the one who doesn't understand that Congress has to approve funding for the military. Which means they DO report to Congress.

[BSmack]

The chain of command is specifically defined. It starts with the President of the United States and then winds its way down through the SoD, the Service Secretaries and then down to the military officers.
At no point is any member of Congress in that chain.

Oversight does not equal command. Congress cannot issue orders to the military. That is not an opinion. It's an indisputable fact.

I think you're confusing de jure with de facto. When you feel like joining us in the real world, let me know.

[Cuda]

A lot has probably changed in the last 20 years since you've been out of the army, meltscal.

[Felix]

I'm guessing that before it's all said and done mvs will have spun this to the point where he'll try and convince us that it was Tillman's fault for being in the line of fire......

[OCmike]

A lot has probably changed in the last 20 years since you've been out of the army, meltscal.

All branches of the military are run the way mvscal describes.

The idiot is the one who doesn't understand that Congress has to approve funding for the military. Which means they DO report to Congress.

The military answers to the President and the President answers to Congress in the form of funding requests...or didn't they teach checks and balances in updstate NY public schools?

[Felix]

It's OK, Mike. Liberals seem to believe that they live under a parliamentary democracy rather than a representative republic with three SEPARATE AND CO-EQUAL branches of government.

I don't suppose this sudden confusion has anything to do with the fact that their party currently controls the legislative branch, do you?

nobody is confused asshat......

you've moved the fucking target so this discussion is no longer about the Tillman's right to know what actually happened to their son and why the Army felt the need to lie about it, and has devolved into "who does the military answer to".......

Congress has the right to ask the military whatever they want to ask them......

get that through your head numbskull.....

[Neely8]

It's funny because I e-mailed both Teddy Kennedy and Kerry to voice my opinion on Illegal Immigration. I told them both that I wanted the 12 million rounded up and sent home.

They both thanked me for my e-mail and proceeded to tell me how they are going to vote for a guest worker program.

Anybody who thinks that a common citizen like myself has any say in what my representatives think and vote is fooling themselves. If 100% of voters in Massachusetts told them that they wanted illegals sent home it wouldn't matter. It matters what the Democratic/Republican party decides. That is how they vote......

[Felix]

lets say one night your coming home and you plow your car into somebody's front room killing some old man watching Barney Miller reruns......

you file a claim with your insurance company and they ask you what happened....do you honestly think telling them "I killed an old man sitting in his chair and that's all you need to know" is going to suffice?

I'm guessing they may want a few more details.....same thing with the Tillman's......

[Mike the Lab Rat]

And you have an exaggerated sense of what the government and the military can and should do.

No, I understand precisely how it works and I've accepted that. You, on the other hand, have a childishly naive view of how you think it should work which explains your unending frustration with reality.

I'm not frustrated at all. The Bush administration and the folks that supported them are being shown for the incompetent, corrupt, arrogant dickheads they have always been. Every time I hear and read about yet another Congressional probe into some dumbass thing that the Bush gang has done, I enjoy the puncturing of their inflated egos. I think it's hysterical when an arrogant asshole like Cheney gets frustrated that American people actually expect him to explain his actions. I love watching my conservative friends abandoning Bush and Cheney and admitting that they got taken in by a moron and a self-interested prick.

In addition to all this, my reality includes a happy marriage, good health, two healthy kids, great job I love, a house with a two car garage and two cars, yadda-yadda...

Don't mistake posts on a web board with the totality.

You seem to have completely forgotten that they both exist only to serve the people.

They exist to govern the people. You don't have to like it or even agree with it, but that's the way it is. Welcome to planet Earth, guy.

Nice personal view of "reality" there, Dr. Strangelove. I'm really glad that you're just some schlub posting on a web board with a disturbingly high frequency instead of anyone who actually has any influence on anyone in any way, shape, or form. If you honestly think that you have the "big picture" and are "in" on the reality, feel free to adjust your tinfoil hat a bit more to the left. In your own way, you are as warped as LTS.

You think you're members of an elite club that somehow managed to "earn" a special privileged outlook on how the government is/should be.

I am a member of an elite club.

An "elite" club that required you to sign up and pass a physical. Whoo-hoo.

An "elite" club that forced millions of men to join it up until the draft was abolished. Yes....incredibly "elite." An "elite" group that has included some of the biggest fuck-ups, doofuses, and mental midgets that have ever been produced by sexual reproduction. Hell, BSmack and I know a Geneseo guy who worked on a frigging nuclear-powered aircraft carrier and who is borderline fucking retarded. Another guy we went to college with spent most of his tour stoned out of his goddamned mind (he's the one who told us stories about drinking absinthe in Japan, using golden seal root to pass drug tests).

Contrary to your desired "aura," the fact is that most -if not all- of us know incredibly stupid people who did a stint in the military because they didn't know what else to do and wound up lucking into two or more years of wild-ass partying on the taxpayer's bill. Other guys signed up not for liberty, justice, and the American way, but for a frigging way to earn money for college.

Save your flag-waving, eye-of-the-tiger, "elite club" horsehit for Tom Clancy.

The fact is, the ONLY reason you pimp the military is that it's the only club that would have you.

You are no different than any other guy who joined a club and thinks it's "the bomb."

I've put my life on the line for this country. How about you? Oh yeah that's right, you do nothing but snivel and whine and then pat yourself on the back for having done your "patriotic duty."

Know what really burns your ass?

The fact that despite the fact that you "put [your] life on the line for this country," you have absolutely no more say or insight into this nation (despite your self-inflated arguments to the contrary) than any other dork on this web board, including me. You get precisely ONE vote in elections, just like every bleeding-heart liberal, crazy-ass libertarian, etc. Despite your service, the bottom line is that, at the end of the day...you don't get counted any more or less than me, BSmack, jtr, etc.

Get the fuck over it.

Despite your delusions of grandeur, you are no more an "insider" on ANYTHING pertaining to this nation than any of us. Just because you were a soldier doesn't mean you have the "keys to the kingdom." Any person on this board with two functioning neurons recognizes that you're a fucking blowhard.....why the hell else would such an "enlightened" individual waste so much time on a sports smack board?

[Felix]

What have you ever sacrificed? What have you ever risked? You just sit back on your lazy, cowardly, worthless ass and let the people you sneer at secure those rights on your behalf.

Fuck you.

yet you have the fucking gall to call Pat Tillman's brother a liar....

what kind of support for your fellow soldier is that you fucking douchebag.....

[Mike the Lab Rat]

And every last one of them is a better man then you could ever possibly hope to be and that's what burns your ass.

"Burns my ass?"

Nope.

I'm content in knowing that my vote counts exactly the same as theirs.

Period.

And as far as the horseshit line: "every last one of them is a better man then (I) could ever possibly hope to be?"

Uh.....link?

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.

You do nothing but whimper about your "rights" like a goddamn baby. What the fuck have YOU ever done to earn them?

I was born. I was endowed by my Creator with inalienable rights. According to the Founders of our nation, our rights are given by God, not the government. Read the Declaration of Independence.

And you actually have the nerve mention Madison and Jefferson? They would spit in your chickenshit face.

I know far more about Jefferson than you pretend to.

Fuck you.

Nice melt, fucktard.

Bottom line - your service hasn't granted you a SINGLE more right to the title of "American" than me. You can spit, hiss, namecall, and sneer all you want, but THAT, my angry little self-important webtard, is the cold, hard reality that YOU seem to not want to face. And there's not a damned thing you can do about it.

Welcome to America, guy.