pop, question ...

RadioFan · Post by **RadioFan** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:16 am

battery chucka' one wrote:Ya' know, Mike, I've seen your comments on here and think that to say anything further would be to cast pearls before swine.

Translation: I'm getting my ass kicked up and down this forum.

You should be used to it by now, Hemingway.

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:00 pm

poptart wrote:Mike, the fundamental difference between Paul and those cult-followers you listed is that those people believed what they were dying for.

Paul, on the other hand, chose to die for something which he would have known to be false.

You understand that you've got a serious problem there.

How so?

There are easily a couple of reasons why Paul would have been willing to die for his message:

1) He could have come to believe his own "tripe and hype." It sure as hell is possible that he became deluded by the teachings he worked hard to promote - that seems to be what happened to Jim Jones (and, we'd probably agree, to Joseph Smith). And hey, what better way to convince his true blue followers that his rants were true than to be martyred for them? (and guess what - that's exactly the line of argument that you and Nacho are attempting to use, so I guess it worked).

2) He realized that he'd gone so far with his thing that it would have been impossible to recant without completely losing face. The choice was between letting the Romans whack him or be outed as a spineless fraud and wind up a discredited nobody. If recanting left him with not a whole heck of a lot for the remainder of his life, maybe he decided "Ah, screw it."

Or how about this - the accounts of his martyrdom may have been spun in the best way possible to promote his cause. It's not as though the folks relaying the story of his prosecution/persecution and death were impartial, objective folks free of an agenda. For all you and I know, Paul was a sobbing, blubbering, spineless pile of tears who actually tried taking it all back to spare his hide, only to be told "too late" by the Romans. You don't honestly think for a second that Paul's followers would EVER let it get out that their leader recanted do you? And as far as why the Romans wouldn't have publicized a recantation - why the hell would they? At that point, Paul was a relatively minor inconvenience, and they had no idea that his zany little cult would eventually take off like Scientology and Mormonism.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:58 pm

I think 1 is the correct answer.
He died because he was preaching and teaching Jesus Christ.

Mike, do you believe that any of what Paul wrote is the Word of God?

If so, what parts?
And also if so, on what basis do you make that determination?

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:22 pm

The smoke from BCO's latest plungering has fouled the wallpaper again, I see. And to think I thought that this would be one of the tidier forums...

God is still in control over what garners the most mainstream acceptance.

Oh well, now that's reassuring.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:33 pm

PSUFAN wrote:The smoke from BCO's latest plungering has fouled the wallpaper again, I see. And to think I thought that this would be one of the tidier forums...

God is still in control over what garners the most mainstream acceptance.

Oh well, now that's reassuring.

So I can blame God for Seinfeld and American Idol? Cool.

Nacho · Post by **Nacho** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:17 pm

Mike,

I am still waiting on your insight as to what the real truth of the Bible is.....

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:05 pm

Nacho wrote:Mike,

I am still waiting on your insight as to what the real truth of the Bible is.....

I'm no evangelist, but this is what works for me:

Mark 12:28-34 wrote:

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."

All the stuff about a Garden of Eden, Noah, Tower of Babel, giants running amuck and mating with humans, Job, Jonah and the whale...frigging fairy tales and allegories. There is an attempt at historical documentation in parts of the OT and NT, but since we weren't dealing with academically-trained modern historians, some of the facts are off or conveniently twisted (like the stuff about the alleged census during Caeser Augustus's reign forcing Jesus's dad on a hike to Bethlehem...). St. Paul dropped the Mosaic dietary and circumcision requirements for Christianity ONLY to increase membership. Period. He freaking fabricated the entire Original Sin bullcrap to drum up members ("Yes, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses is the one true God, but you can only get to spend glorious eternity with Him if you JOIN OUR CLUB!!!").

Jesus at no point EVER discusses Original Sin. For it to have been so utterly KEY as some of you have argued, you'd have thought that the Savior - or any of the men who actually KNEW HIM AND WORKED WITH HIM FOR THREE YEARS- might have mentioned it even once. But nope, it took some epileptic freak who never met Jesus to somehow discern this oh-so-vital philosophical and theological keystone.

Right. Sure.

Jesus made a point of harshing on the Pharisees for their legalism, and it took a a VERY short time after His death for His Apostles and that con-man Paul to start laying down their own man-made accretions to Jesus's teachings.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:36 am

Mike wrote:He freaking fabricated the entire Original Sin bullcrap to drum up members ("Yes, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses is the one true God, but you can only get to spend glorious eternity with Him if you JOIN OUR CLUB!!!").

Paul said that the only way to meet God is through Jesus Christ.
Do you not agree?

The irony of your take, of course, is that it was the Jews who mistakenly thought God's plan of salvation involved only THEM, and that only THEY were part of ..... 'the club'.

They were (many/most still are) hung up on the false idea that 'the club' only includes THEM.
But of course God's plan of salvation includes the whole world of people.

Mike, how can a Jew (or anyone else) meet God, and gain eternal life, apart from receiving Jesus Christ?

What say you?

Mike wrote:Jesus at no point EVER discusses Original Sin

John 3:1-8

1: There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Man must be born again.
It's a requirement, according to Jesus.
Why must a person be born again?

[rhetorical question]Was something wrong with us from the first birth?[/rhetorical question]

We're all sinners who are separated from God.
The Bible tells us that SO many times.
And not once does it say that there is anyone who is NOT a sinner.

In fact, Genesis 3 tells us why.

Genesis 3:1-20 ---> Genesis 3:15 ---> Isaiah 7:14 ---> Galatians 4:4 ---> Matthew 16:16 ---> 1 John 3:8

Take 10 minutes and look at the 'Cliff Notes' version of the Bible.

It's mucho better than the Jefferson version.

What part of the Bible is God's Word?

Is any of it?

What about Paul's writings?

Are any of his writings God's Word for us?

How do you decide what is God's Word for you and what is not?

Nacho · Post by **Nacho** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:32 pm

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:Jesus made a point of harshing on the Pharisees for their legalism, and it took a a VERY short time after His death for His Apostles and that con-man Paul to start laying down their own man-made accretions to Jesus's teachings.

So what would these legalistic accretions be?

I am interested more in what you think the other Apostles (not just Paul) made up and what evidence you have to support your arguments.

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:25 am

poptart wrote:Paul said that the only way to meet God is through Jesus Christ.
Do you not agree?

No, I don't.

I absolutely refuse to believe that non-Christian individuals who have lived exemplary lives and been genuinely good people would be turned away by an all-good, all-powerful, loving God who created them. I absolutely refuse to believe that folks who are just damned good people but happen to be Buddhists, Jews, Mormons, or even atheists would be rejected by a God who created them.

If "God" honestly only lets in Bible-thumping Christers, then just ship me to Hell, because I'd hate to spend eternity with such a small-minded bigot.

MY God is a God of love, compassion, and mercy.

poptart wrote:The irony of your take, of course, is that it was the Jews who mistakenly thought God's plan of salvation involved only THEM, and that only THEY were part of ..... 'the club'.

There's no irony in MY take. The irony is in YOUR faith condemning the Jews for their attitude...and then perpetuating it.

poptart wrote:They were (many/most still are) hung up on the false idea that 'the club' only includes THEM.
But of course God's plan of salvation includes the whole world of people.

OK...I'm throwing a frigging yellow flag.

HYPOCRISY, TEN YARDS!

How in the hell can you type that with a straight face?!?!

"God's plan of salvation includes the whole world of people"?!?!?

Pop, in your little thumper world, they only get included IF THEY BECOME CHRISTIAN.

"The whole world of people" is only "included" if they deny their previous religious tenets and adopt yours. Otherwise, in the thumper view of God, they are cast into eternal damnation.

Bull-fucking-shit.

BTW, the Jews also include the "whole world of people" in their gate to God if they are willing to convert to Judaism. I understand that Muzzies feel the same way. With that in mind, please stop making it sound as though Christianity was the first or is the only faith to open up a path to Heaven to all folks.

Mike wrote:Jesus at no point EVER discusses Original Sin
John 3:1-8

1: There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Man must be born again.
It's a requirement, according to Jesus.
Why must a person be born again?

Nice quote, but wholly irrelevant.

Jesus at no point states that the specific disobedience of Adam and Eve has condemned all of us to eternal perdition. He never uses the words "Original Sin." Your cherry-picking quotes and inferring theological stuff doesn't change those facts. Jesus never teaches the doctrine of Original Sin. Period.

poptart wrote:We're all sinners who are separated from God.
The Bible tells us that SO many times.
And not once does it say that there is anyone who is NOT a sinner.

Maybe. Maybe not. There are Scripture quote-pickers out there in "google-land" who have pointed out that Noah seems to have been considered pretty danged righteous by God and claim that there are other folks mentioned in the OT who are considered pretty good by God.

poptart wrote:What part of the Bible is God's Word?

Is any of it?

What about Paul's writings?

Are any of his writings God's Word for us?

In my not-so-humble-opinion, any agreement between God's Word and Paul's is completely accidental.

poptart wrote:How do you decide what is God's Word for you and what is not?

I have this organ in my head called a brain. Some have claimed it was made by this God fellow. I've spent decades using it and honing it, and have a pretty good bullshit-detector. When stuff in a religious book makes claims that are 100% contradicted by historical and scientific evidence - I call bullshit. When a guy who never actually met Jesus starts developing complex theological doctrines not even hinted at by Jesus - I call bullshit. When credulous saps argue that one factual mistake in the entire Bible would cause the ENTIRE FREAKING BIBLE to be false, I call bullshit.

You, Nacho, and bco may not like it, but that's how I roll. You might argue that I "can't" pick and choose what to believe out of the Bible, but:

a) you don't get to make that call, and

b) look in the mirror, guys...you do the SAME THING (even if you don't admit it).

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:25 am

Mike wrote:I absolutely refuse to believe that non-Christian individuals who have lived exemplary lives and been genuinely good people would be turned away by an all-good, all-powerful, loving God who created them. I absolutely refuse to believe that folks who are just damned good people but happen to be Buddhists, Jews, Mormons, or even atheists would be rejected by a God who created them.

If "God" honestly only lets in Bible-thumping Christers, then just ship me to Hell, because I'd hate to spend eternity with such a small-minded bigot.

You claim to be a believer in Jesus Christ and yet you deny Him.
You make Him a liar also.

The Words of Christ Jesus are abudantly clear -- there is no way to the Father apart from Me.

If Jesus came to be a 'moral teacher' then there was no reason for Him to suffer and die as He did.
If there is salvation apart from Him there is also no reason for His suffering and death.
Just come, teach us good things, and die peacefully -- like Buddah, Socrates, Ghandi ... whoever.

I see that you believe Buddhists, Muslims, .... and presumably many other idol worshippers can meet God and live eternally .... if they're 'good' peeps.

But what does Mike the Lab Rat think about a person who hears of Jesus Christ, but chooses not to believe in Him.
A person who just decides in his own mind, "Naaah, I don't need it. I'm just gonna live right and love others."
Does such a person also meet God and live eternally, in your opinion?

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:47 pm

poptart wrote:You claim to be a believer in Jesus Christ and yet you deny Him.
You make Him a liar also.

I don't believe that JESUS is a liar.

I believe, based on the contradictory information given in the Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John, that His followers' followers (whoever the actual authors of the Gospels were...) that His words were less-than-accurately recorded - either because of fualty memory or personal agendas/interpretations or a combination of the two.

poptart wrote:If Jesus came to be a 'moral teacher' then there was no reason for Him to suffer and die as He did.

Only if you choose to buy into a specific theology.

poptart wrote:If there is salvation apart from Him there is also no reason for His suffering and death.

Like I said...only if you buy into a specific theology which conveniently reinforces your "you gotta join MY club to get salvation" membership drive.

poptart wrote:I see that you believe Buddhists, Muslims, .... and presumably many other idol worshippers can meet God and live eternally .... if they're 'good' peeps.

But what does Mike the Lab Rat think about a person who hears of Jesus Christ, but chooses not to believe in Him.

That's God's call.

poptart wrote:A person who just decides in his own mind, "Naaah, I don't need it. I'm just gonna live right and love others."
Does such a person also meet God and live eternally, in your opinion?

In my opinion, someone who cares for his brothers and sisters - feeds them when they're hungry, clothes them when they're naked and cold, comforts them when they're suffering, cares for the least...Jesus will welcome them regardless of whether they called themselves Christians. OTOH, those folks who filled the pews, memorized Scripture and Verse, preached with hellfire-and-brimstone...but spent their time caring only for those who ALSO called themselves members of the "Christian club" and condemning all others will be rightfully called out for their hypocrisy.

But you know what, ultimately that's God's call, not yours or mine. For all we know, folks like Hitler, Judas, Stalin, Mao, etc. have been forgiven by God and are currently in Heaven. Neither you nor I have any say in the matter, nor do we honestly know for sure.

All I can do is what I believe Jesus would want, and you obviously do the same. It'll be His call in the end, and I sincerely hope that we each get past the "Holy bouncer" at the gate...

Nacho · Post by **Nacho** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:44 pm

As to who is in heaven and who isn't. You are correct. That is Gods call not mine. And you are also correct in how people should treat each other. Those would be the same things Jesus commanded us to do. I don't know too many Christians who don't do things like this. Of course I have been around some Christians that don't and some non believers that do. I have also been around far more non believers that could care less about the world around them then I do with Christians...

Maybe that is just where I live or something...

It just leaves the question what Jesus meant when he gave the parable about the narrow gate. (Matt 7:13) Seeems to point out that people can choose whatever road they want but only one road leads to heaven. You can read Pop's posts for more on other stuff Jesus said about that subject.

Mike, why would that be important for Jesus to teach, if as you say, everyone who is good and chooses their own way gets to God anyway?

Does belief or faith mean anything then? Not just for Christians but for all belief systems....

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:16 pm

What a mess. This thread, not just MtLR's theological solipsism. As far as the original question, inerrancy refers to the original autographs, not any particular translations. Of course the various original texts we have available (including the Dead Sea Scrolls) have minimal differences among them, none of which are theologicaly signifigant. Original Sin refers to the sinful nature of man, not some sort of pre-natal damnation. (Another reason the anti-abortion fanatics have it all backwards-kill them all. God won't need to sort them out). If you wish to omit Paul, you've got to do the same with Peter. He put Paul on equal footing with the other apostles. And if you want to claim Paul decided to be executed to aviod loosing face, then all the other Apostles who knew Christ during his ministry had to be part of the same masochistic (and pointless) conspiracy.

But feel free to be a 'Christian' that believes the whole Bible is crap (except the parts you think are cool, of course). Of course you make the Heaven's Gate folks seem reasonable by comparison.

RadioFan · Post by **RadioFan** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:58 am

Diogenes wrote:As far as the original question, inerrancy refers to the original autographs, not any particular translations Of course the various original texts we have available (including the Dead Sea Scrolls) have minimal differences among them, none of which are theologicaly signifigant.

If one is going to talk about the literal "word of God," it becomes tremendously important.

Diogenes wrote:But feel free to be a 'Christian' that believes the whole Bible is crap (except the parts you think are cool, of course).

There are many folks who view the Old Testimant as allegory, and it has nothing to do with translation (my gf included), simply because Jesus is the New Testiment. In her view -- and I'm not saying it's right nor wrong -- a majority of the old testiment is "crap," because Jesus is the New Covenant.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:34 pm

RadioFan wrote:
Diogenes wrote:But feel free to be a 'Christian' that believes the whole Bible is crap (except the parts you think are cool, of course).
There are many folks who view the Old Testimant as allegory, and it has nothing to do with translation (my gf included), simply because Jesus is the New Testiment. In her view -- and I'm not saying it's right nor wrong -- a majority of the old testiment is "crap," because Jesus is the New Covenant.

There is a difference between believing parts of scripture are allegory and believing that it is made up bullshit designed to oppress the teeming masses, or that it was written sometime in the middle ages because if it was contemporaneous, that would imply that it might actually be true. And Christ said that the OT was true, so you can't really have one without the other. What I was refering to are those who allow their personal prejudices and ignorance to accept the parts they like and dismiss out of hand the parts that hurt their tiny minds.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:22 pm

Christ said that the OT was true

Where? Just wondering.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:46 pm

PSUFAN wrote:
Christ said that the OT was true
Where? Just wondering.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Mt 5:17, 18)

He also refers to the Torah being the law of Moses in:

Mt 8:4; 19:7, 8; 23:2; Mark 1:44; 10:3, 4; 7:10; Luke 5:14; 16:31; 20:37; 24:27, 44; John 3:14; 5:39, 45, 46; 6:32; 7:19, 22, 23

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:42 pm

Diogenes wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:
Christ said that the OT was true
Where? Just wondering.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Mt 5:17, 18)

He also refers to the Torah being the law of Moses in:

Mt 8:4; 19:7, 8; 23:2; Mark 1:44; 10:3, 4; 7:10; Luke 5:14; 16:31; 20:37; 24:27, 44; John 3:14; 5:39, 45, 46; 6:32; 7:19, 22, 23

So here's an honest question:

Given the above quotes from Jesus himself, how in the hell does Paul have the stones to completely contradict Jesus and ditch Mosaic laws? How do Christians justify ignoring Mosaic rules given the above quotes from Jesus?

Sure, Paul claims that his "visions" give him the authority - but that's awfully weird that Jesus would SAY one thing to the guys who hung with Him and who He taught, and then say the opposite to some guy He never met in life and who brags about no man (including Jesus's best buds) teaching him (in Galatians).

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:39 pm

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:
Diogenes wrote:Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Mt 5:17, 18)

He also refers to the Torah being the law of Moses in:

Mt 8:4; 19:7, 8; 23:2; Mark 1:44; 10:3, 4; 7:10; Luke 5:14; 16:31; 20:37; 24:27, 44; John 3:14; 5:39, 45, 46; 6:32; 7:19, 22, 23
So here's an honest question:

Given the above quotes from Jesus himself, how in the hell does Paul have the stones to completely contradict Jesus and ditch Mosaic laws? How do Christians justify ignoring Mosaic rules given the above quotes from Jesus?

Pretty much the same accusations the Judizers made against Peter in Acts 11 (chapter 10 is about his vision prior to visiting Cornelius). Neither contradicts the law, any more than Christ did when he ministered on the Sabbath. By Fulfill, he means just that. All of the law is fulfilliled in his life, death and resurection. And Peter puts Paul's teachings on the same level as other scripture...

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

2 Pet 3:15-16

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:33 pm

So, if -according to Paul's "visions"- Jesus fulfilled the Law and therefore Christians are no longer bound by Mosaic restrictions, then Christians can no longer cite any of the 600+ rules from the OT as a legitimate source when condemning the behavior of others or telling folks how to run their lives.

Somehow I doubt that this "fact" has stopped thumpers from quoting the OT to defend their particular denominational prejudices. If the Law was fulfilled through Jesus, then Christians can't cherry-pick through the OT to resurrect particular behaviors that they claim are "still in effect." If Jesus's fulfilling the Law gets us out of dietary restrictions, circumcision, worrying about clothing made of two different fabrics, stoning witches, etc., then it also gets us out of any and all of the OT rules that various Christian denominations try to have Christians follow. Christians can't have it both ways, cherry-picking Mosaic rules for what "is and isn't fulfilled" in order to control their flocks.

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:15 pm

I'm just trying to get a "rules clarification."

It would be nice to finally have a thumper admit to inconsistancies in the rulebook.

If Jebus fulfilled the Law, allowing us to scrap Mosaic Law and have pork chops, "turtleneck penises" (instead of "crewneck"), and mixed-blend clothing, then how in the heck can thumpers of ANY stripe use Mosaic Law to condemn anyone's behavior?

Either Mosiac Laws are void or they ain't. Thumpers can't have it both ways.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:01 pm

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:So, if -according to Paul's "visions"- Jesus fulfilled the Law and therefore Christians are no longer bound by Mosaic restrictions, then Christians can no longer cite any of the 600+ rules from the OT as a legitimate source when condemning the behavior of others or telling folks how to run their lives.

First of all, it isn't just Paul's teachings, but also those of Peter and Christ himself. But you're half right. The Mosaic laws were given for Israel to guide them in how to live in accordance with God's will. And as whack as some of them may seem to some people today, in that context, they had valid health purposes (the dietary laws and circumcision, for example), social reasons, or spiritual ones. But just because the law is fulfilled doesn't mean that murder, adultery and theft are kosher all of a sudden. Even if there is no eternal consequence, the present spiritual consequences of these actions will still be damaging. Not to even consider the social impacts.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:21 pm

Diogenes wrote:
Mike the Lab Rat wrote:So, if -according to Paul's "visions"- Jesus fulfilled the Law and therefore Christians are no longer bound by Mosaic restrictions, then Christians can no longer cite any of the 600+ rules from the OT as a legitimate source when condemning the behavior of others or telling folks how to run their lives.
First of all, it isn't just Paul's teachings, but also those of Peter and Christ himself. But you're half right. The Mosaic laws were given for Israel to guide them in how to live in accordance with God's will. And as whack as some of them may seem to some people today, in that context, they had valid health purposes (the dietary laws and circumcision, for example), social reasons, or spiritual ones. But just because the law is fulfilled doesn't mean that murder, adultery and theft are kosher all of a sudden. Even if there is no eternal consequence, the present spiritual consequences of these actions will still be damaging. Not to even consider the social impacts.

Could you waffle a little more?

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:36 pm

C'mon Bri...with a list this long, who could blame Paul and his followers for slapping their foreheads, claiming they had a "vision" [wink-wink], and suddenly telling the prospective Gentile converts who balked at Judaic laws: "Ahhh, you know those wacky, nutty laws of Moses...I just got a memo from Jebus...he says to just forget about 'em..."

The 613 commandments and their source in scripture, as enumerated by Maimonides:

To know there is a God Ex. 20:2
Not to entertain thoughts of other gods besides Him Ex. 20:3
To know that He is One Deut. 6:4
To love Him Deut. 6:5
To fear Him Deut. 10:20
To sanctify His Name Lev. 22:32
Not to profane His Name Lev. 22:32
Not to destroy objects associated with His Name Deut. 12:4
To listen to the prophet speaking in His Name Deut. 18:15
Not to test the prophet unduly Deut. 6:16
To emulate His ways Deut. 28:9
To cleave to those who know Him Deut. 10:20
To love other Jews Lev. 19:18
To love converts Deut. 10:19
Not to hate fellow Jews Lev. 19:17
To reprove a sinner Lev. 19:17
Not to embarrass others Lev. 19:17
Not to oppress the weak Ex. 22:21
Not to speak derogatorily of others Lev. 19:16
Not to take revenge Lev. 19:18
Not to bear a grudge Lev. 19:18
To learn Torah Deut. 6:7
To honor those who teach and know Torah Lev. 19:32
Not to inquire into idolatry Lev. 19:4
Not to follow the whims of your heart or what your eyes see Num. 15:39
Not to blaspheme Ex. 22:27
Not to worship idols in the manner they are worshiped Ex. 20:5
Not to worship idols in the four ways we worship God Ex. 20:5
Not to make an idol for yourself Ex. 20:4
Not to make an idol for others Lev. 19:4
Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes Ex. 20:20
Not to turn a city to idolatry Ex. 23:13
To burn a city that has turned to idol worship Deut. 13:17
Not to rebuild it as a city Deut. 13:17
Not to derive benefit from it Deut. 13:18
Not to missionize an individual to idol worship Deut. 13:12
Not to love the idolater Deut. 13:9
Not to cease hating the idolater Deut. 13:9
Not to save the idolater Deut. 13:9
Not to say anything in the idolater's defense Deut. 13:9
Not to refrain from incriminating the idolater Deut. 13:9
Not to prophesize in the name of idolatry Deut. 13:14
Not to listen to a false prophet Deut. 13:4
Not to prophesize falsely in the name of God Deut. 18:20
Not to be afraid of killing the false prophet Deut. 18:22
Not to swear in the name of an idol Ex. 23:13
Not to perform ov (medium) Lev. 19:31
Not to perform yidoni ("magical seer") Lev. 19:31
Not to pass your children through the fire to Molech Lev. 18:21
Not to erect a pillar in a public place of worship Deut. 16:22
Not to bow down on smooth stone Lev. 26:1
Not to plant a tree in the Temple courtyard Deut. 16:21
To destroy idols and their accessories Deut. 12:2
Not to derive benefit from idols and their accessories Deut. 7:26
Not to derive benefit from ornaments of idols Deut. 7:25
Not to make a covenant with idolaters Deut. 7:2
Not to show favor to them Deut. 7:2
Not to let them dwell in the Land of Israel Ex. 23:33
Not to imitate them in customs and clothing Lev. 20:23
Not to be superstitious Lev. 19:26
Not to go into a trance to foresee events, etc. Deut. 18:10
Not to engage in astrology Lev. 19:26
Not to mutter incantations Deut. 18:11
Not to attempt to contact the dead Deut. 18:11
Not to consult the ov Deut. 18:11
Not to consult the yidoni Deut. 18:11
Not to perform acts of magic Deut. 18:10
Men must not shave the hair off the sides of their head Lev. 19:27
Men must not shave their beards with a razor Lev. 19:27
Men must not wear women's clothing Deut. 22:5
Women must not wear men's clothing Deut. 22:5
Not to tattoo the skin Lev. 19:28
Not to tear the skin in mourning Deut. 14:1
Not to make a bald spot in mourning Deut. 14:1
To repent and confess wrongdoings Num. 5:7
To say the Shema twice daily Deut. 6:7
To serve the Almighty with daily prayer Ex. 23:25
The Kohanim must bless the Jewish nation daily Num. 6:23
To wear tefillin (phylacteries) on the head Deut. 6:8
To bind tefillin on the arm Deut. 6:8
To put a mezuzah on each door post Deut. 6:9
Each male must write a Torah scroll Deut. 31:19
The king must have a separate Sefer Torah for himself Deut. 17:18
To have tzitzit on four-cornered garments Num. 15:38
To bless the Almighty after eating Deut. 8:10
To circumcise all males on the eighth day after their birth Lev. 12:3
To rest on the seventh day Ex. 23:12
Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh day Ex. 20:10
The court must not inflict punishment on Shabbat Ex. 35:3
Not to walk outside the city boundary on Shabbat Ex. 16:29
To sanctify the day with Kiddush and Havdalah Ex. 20:8
To rest from prohibited labor Lev. 23:32
Not to do prohibited labor on Yom Kippur Lev. 23:32
To afflict yourself on Yom Kippur Lev. 16:29
Not to eat or drink on Yom Kippur Lev. 23:29
To rest on the first day of Passover Lev. 23:7
Not to do prohibited labor on the first day of Passover Lev. 23:8
To rest on the seventh day of Passover Lev. 23:8
Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh day of Passover Lev. 23:8
To rest on Shavuot Lev. 23:21
Not to do prohibited labor on Shavuot Lev. 23:21
To rest on Rosh Hashanah Lev. 23:24
Not to do prohibited labor on Rosh Hashanah Lev. 23:25
To rest on Sukkot Lev. 23:35
Not to do prohibited labor on Sukkot Lev. 23:35
To rest on Shemini Atzeret Lev. 23:36
Not to do prohibited labor on Shemini Atzeret Lev. 23:36
Not to eat chametz on the afternoon of the 14th day of Nissan Deut. 16:3
To destroy all chametz on 14th day of Nissan Ex. 12:15
Not to eat chametz all seven days of Passover Ex. 13:3
Not to eat mixtures containing chametz all seven days of Passover Ex. 12:20
Not to see chametz in your domain seven days Ex. 13:7
Not to find chametz in your domain seven days Ex. 12:19
To eat matzah on the first night of Passover Ex. 12:18
To relate the Exodus from Egypt on that night Ex. 13:8
To hear the Shofar on the first day of Tishrei (Rosh Hashanah) Num. 9:1
To dwell in a Sukkah for the seven days of Sukkot Lev. 23:42
To take up a Lulav and Etrog all seven days Lev. 23:40
Each man must give a half shekel annually Ex. 30:13
Courts must calculate to determine when a new month begins Ex. 12:2
To afflict oneself and cry out before God in times of calamity Num. 10:9
To marry a wife by means of ketubah and kiddushin Deut. 22:13
Not to have sexual relations with women not thus married Deut. 23:18
Not to withhold food, clothing, and sexual relations from your wife Ex. 21:10
To have children with one's wife Gen. 1:28
To issue a divorce by means of a Get document Deut. 24:1
A man must not remarry his ex-wife after she has married someone else Deut. 24:4
To perform yibbum (marry the widow of one's childless brother) Deut. 25:5
To perform halizah (free the widow of one's childless brother from yibbum) Deut. 25:9
The widow must not remarry until the ties with her brother-in-law are removed (by halizah) Deut. 25:5
The court must fine one who sexually seduces a maiden Ex. 22:15-16
The rapist must marry the maiden (if she chooses) Deut. 22:29
He is never allowed to divorce her Deut. 22:29
The slanderer must remain married to his wife Deut. 22:19
He must not divorce her Deut. 22:19
To fulfill the laws of the Sotah Num. 5:30
Not to put oil on her meal offering (as usual) Num. 5:15
Not to put frankincense on her meal offering (as usual) Num. 5:15
Not to have sexual relations with your mother Lev. 18:7
Not to have sexual relations with your father's wife Lev. 18:8
Not to have sexual relations with your sister Lev. 18:9
Not to have sexual relations with your father's wife's daughter Lev. 18:11
Not to have sexual relations with your son's daughter Lev. 18:10
Not to have sexual relations with your daughter Lev. 18:10
Not to have sexual relations with your daughter's daughter Lev. 18:10
Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her daughter Lev. 18:17
Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her son's daughter Lev. 18:17
Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her daughter's daughter Lev. 18:17
Not to have sexual relations with your father's sister Lev. 18:12
Not to have sexual relations with your mother's sister Lev. 18:13
Not to have sexual relations with your father's brother's wife Lev. 18:14
Not to have sexual relations with your son's wife Lev. 18:15
Not to have sexual relations with your brother's wife Lev. 18:16
Not to have sexual relations with your wife's sister Lev. 18:18
A man must not have sexual relations with an animal Lev. 18:23
A woman must not have sexual relations with an animal Lev. 18:23
Not to have homosexual sexual relations Lev. 18:22
Not to have homosexual sexual relations with your father Lev. 18:7
Not to have homosexual sexual relations with your father's brother Lev. 18:14
Not to have sexual relations with someone else's wife Lev. 18:20
Not to have sexual relations with a menstrually impure woman Lev. 18:19
Not to marry non-Jews Deut. 7:3
Not to let Moabite and Ammonite males marry into the Jewish people Deut. 23:4
Not to prevent a third-generation Egyptian convert from marrying into the Jewish people Deut. 23:8-9
Not to refrain from marrying a third generation Edomite convert Deut. 23:8-9
Not to let a mamzer (a child born due to an illegal relationship) marry into the Jewish people Deut. 23:3
Not to let a eunuch marry into the Jewish people Deut. 23:2
Not to offer to God any castrated male animals Lev. 22:24
The High Priest must not marry a widow Lev. 21:14
The High Priest must not have sexual relations with a widow even outside of marriage Lev. 21:15
The High Priest must marry a virgin maiden Lev. 21:13
A Kohen (priest) must not marry a divorcee Lev. 21:7
A Kohen must not marry a zonah (a woman who has had a forbidden sexual relationship) Lev. 21:7
A Kohen must not marry a chalalah ("a desecrated person") (party to or product of 169-172) Lev. 21:7
Not to make pleasurable (sexual) contact with any forbidden woman Lev. 18:6
To examine the signs of animals to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:2
To examine the signs of fowl to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Deut. 14:11
To examine the signs of fish to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:9
To examine the signs of locusts to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:21
Not to eat non-kosher animals Lev. 11:4
Not to eat non-kosher fowl Lev. 11:13
Not to eat non-kosher fish Lev. 11:11
Not to eat non-kosher flying insects Deut. 14:19
Not to eat non-kosher creatures that crawl on land Lev. 11:41
Not to eat non-kosher maggots Lev. 11:44
Not to eat worms found in fruit on the ground Lev. 11:42
Not to eat creatures that live in water other than (kosher) fish Lev. 11:43
Not to eat the meat of an animal that died without ritual slaughter Deut. 14:21
Not to benefit from an ox condemned to be stoned Ex. 21:28
Not to eat meat of an animal that was mortally wounded Ex. 22:30
Not to eat a limb torn off a living creature Deut. 12:23
Not to eat blood Lev. 3:17
Not to eat certain fats of clean animals Lev. 3:17
Not to eat the sinew of the thigh Gen. 32:33
Not to eat meat and milk cooked together Ex. 23:19
Not to cook meat and milk together Ex. 34:26
Not to eat bread from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
Not to eat parched grains from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
Not to eat ripened grains from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
Not to eat fruit of a tree during its first three years Lev. 19:23
Not to eat diverse seeds planted in a vineyard Deut. 22:9
Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15
Not to drink wine poured in service to idols Deut. 32:38
To ritually slaughter an animal before eating it Deut. 12:21
Not to slaughter an animal and its offspring on the same day Lev. 22:28
To cover the blood (of a slaughtered beast or fowl) with earth Lev. 17:13
To send away the mother bird before taking its children Deut. 22:6
To release the mother bird if she was taken from the nest Deut. 22:7
Not to swear falsely in God's Name Lev. 19:12
Not to take God's Name in vain Ex. 20:6
Not to deny possession of something entrusted to you Lev. 19:11
Not to swear in denial of a monetary claim Lev. 19:11
To swear in God's Name to confirm the truth when deemed necessary by court Deut. 10:20
To fulfill what was uttered and to do what was avowed Deut. 23:24
Not to break oaths or vows Num. 30:3
For oaths and vows annulled, there are the laws of annulling vows explicit in the Torah Num. 30:3
The Nazir must let his hair grow Num. 6:5
He must not cut his hair Num. 6:5
He must not drink wine, wine mixtures, or wine vinegar Num. 6:3
He must not eat fresh grapes Num. 6:3
He must not eat raisins Num. 6:3
He must not eat grape seeds Num. 6:4
He must not eat grape skins Num. 6:4
He must not be under the same roof as a corpse Num. 6:6
He must not come into contact with the dead Num. 6:7
He must shave his head after bringing sacrifices upon completion of his Nazirite period Num. 6:9
To estimate the value of people as determined by the Torah Lev. 27:2
To estimate the value of consecrated animals Lev. 27:12-13
To estimate the value of consecrated houses Lev. 27:14
To estimate the value of consecrated fields Lev. 27:16
Carry out the laws of interdicting possessions (cherem) Lev. 27:28
Not to sell the cherem Lev. 27:28
Not to redeem the cherem Lev. 27:28
Not to plant diverse seeds together Lev. 19:19
Not to plant grains or greens in a vineyard Deut. 22:9
Not to crossbreed animals Lev. 19:19
Not to work different animals together Deut. 22:10
Not to wear shaatnez, a cloth woven of wool and linen Deut. 22:11
To leave a corner of the field uncut for the poor Lev. 19:10
Not to reap that corner Lev. 19:9
To leave gleanings Lev. 19:9
Not to gather the gleanings Lev. 19:9
To leave the gleanings of a vineyard Lev. 19:10
Not to gather the gleanings of a vineyard Lev. 19:10
To leave the unformed clusters of grapes Lev. 19:10
Not to pick the unformed clusters of grapes Lev. 19:10
To leave the forgotten sheaves in the field Deut. 24:19
Not to retrieve them Deut. 24:19
To separate the "tithe for the poor" Deut. 14:28
To give charity Deut. 15:8
Not to withhold charity from the poor Deut. 15:7
To set aside Terumah Gedolah (gift for the Kohen) Deut. 18:4
The Levite must set aside a tenth of his tithe Num. 18:26
Not to preface one tithe to the next, but separate them in their proper order Ex. 22:28
A non-Kohen must not eat Terumah Lev. 22:10
A hired worker or a Jewish bondsman of a Kohen must not eat Terumah Lev. 22:10
An uncircumcised Kohen must not eat Terumah Ex. 12:48
An impure Kohen must not eat Terumah Lev. 22:4
A chalalah (party to #s 169-172 above) must not eat Terumah Lev. 22:12
To set aside Ma'aser (tithe) each planting year and give it to a Levite Num. 18:24
To set aside the second tithe (Ma'aser Sheni) Deut. 14:22
Not to spend its redemption money on anything but food, drink, or ointment Deut. 26:14
Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni while impure Deut. 26:14
A mourner on the first day after death must not eat Ma'aser Sheni Deut. 26:14
Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni grains outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni wine products outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni oil outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
The fourth year crops must be totally for holy purposes like Ma'aser Sheni Lev. 19:24
To read the confession of tithes every fourth and seventh year Deut. 26:13
To set aside the first fruits and bring them to the Temple Ex. 23:19
The Kohanim must not eat the first fruits outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
To read the Torah portion pertaining to their presentation Deut. 26:5
To set aside a portion of dough for a Kohen Num. 15:20
To give the shoulder, two cheeks, and stomach of slaughtered animals to a Kohen Deut. 18:3
To give the first shearing of sheep to a Kohen Deut. 18:4
To redeem firstborn sons and give the money to a Kohen Num. 18:15
To redeem the firstborn donkey by giving a lamb to a Kohen Ex. 13:13
To break the neck of the donkey if the owner does not intend to redeem it Ex. 13:13
To rest the land during the seventh year by not doing any work which enhances growth Ex. 34:21
Not to work the land during the seventh year Lev. 25:4
Not to work with trees to produce fruit during that year Lev. 25:4
Not to reap crops that grow wild that year in the normal manner Lev. 25:5
Not to gather grapes which grow wild that year in the normal way Lev. 25:5
To leave free all produce which grew in that year Ex. 23:11
To release all loans during the seventh year Deut. 15:2
Not to pressure or claim from the borrower Deut. 15:2
Not to refrain from lending immediately before the release of the loans for fear of monetary loss Deut. 15:9
The Sanhedrin must count seven groups of seven years Lev. 25:8
The Sanhedrin must sanctify the fiftieth year Lev. 25:10
To blow the Shofar on the tenth of Tishrei to free the slaves Lev. 25:9
Not to work the soil during the fiftieth year (Jubilee)Lev. 25:11
Not to reap in the normal manner that which grows wild in the fiftieth year Lev. 25:11
Not to pick grapes which grew wild in the normal manner in the fiftieth year Lev. 25:11
Carry out the laws of sold family properties Lev. 25:24
Not to sell the land in Israel indefinitely Lev. 25:23
Carry out the laws of houses in walled cities Lev. 25:29
The Tribe of Levi must not be given a portion of the land in Israel, rather they are given cities to dwell in Deut. 18:1
The Levites must not take a share in the spoils of war Deut. 18:1
To give the Levites cities to inhabit and their surrounding fields Num. 35:2
Not to sell the fields but they shall remain the Levites' before and after the Jubilee year Lev. 25:34
To build a Temple Ex. 25:8
Not to build the altar with stones hewn by metal Ex. 20:23
Not to climb steps to the altar Ex. 20:26
To show reverence to the Temple Lev. 19:30
To guard the Temple area Num. 18:2
Not to leave the Temple unguarded Num. 18:5
To prepare the anointing oil Ex. 30:31
Not to reproduce the anointing oil Ex. 30:32
Not to anoint with anointing oil Ex. 30:32
Not to reproduce the incense formula Ex. 30:37
Not to burn anything on the Golden Altar besides incense Ex. 30:9
The Levites must transport the ark on their shoulders Num. 7:9
Not to remove the staves from the ark Ex. 25:15
The Levites must work in the Temple Num. 18:23
No Levite must do another's work of either a Kohen or a Levite Num. 18:3
To dedicate the Kohen for service Lev. 21:8
The work of the Kohanim's shifts must be equal during holidays Deut. 18:6-8
The Kohanim must wear their priestly garments during service Ex. 28:2
Not to tear the priestly garments Ex. 28:32
The Kohen Gadol 's breastplate must not be loosened from the Efod Ex. 28:28
A Kohen must not enter the Temple intoxicated Lev. 10:9
A Kohen must not enter the Temple with his head uncovered Lev. 10:6
A Kohen must not enter the Temple with torn clothes Lev. 10:6
A Kohen must not enter the Temple indiscriminately Lev. 16:2
A Kohen must not leave the Temple during service Lev. 10:7
To send the impure from the Temple Num. 5:2
Impure people must not enter the Temple Num. 5:3
Impure people must not enter the Temple Mount area Deut. 23:11
Impure Kohanim must not do service in the temple Lev. 22:2
An impure Kohen, following immersion, must wait until after sundown before returning to service Lev. 22:7
A Kohen must wash his hands and feet before service Ex. 30:19
A Kohen with a physical blemish must not enter the sanctuary or approach the altar Lev. 21:23
A Kohen with a physical blemish must not serve Lev. 21:17
A Kohen with a temporary blemish must not serve Lev. 21:17
One who is not a Kohen must not serve Num. 18:4
To offer only unblemished animals Lev. 22:21
Not to dedicate a blemished animal for the altar Lev. 22:20
Not to slaughter it Lev. 22:22
Not to sprinkle its blood Lev. 22:24
Not to burn its fat Lev. 22:22
Not to offer a temporarily blemished animal Deut. 17:1
Not to sacrifice blemished animals even if offered by non-Jews Lev. 22:25
Not to inflict wounds upon dedicated animals Lev. 22:21
To redeem dedicated animals which have become disqualified Deut. 12:15
To offer only animals which are at least eight days old Lev. 22:27
Not to offer animals bought with the wages of a harlot or the animal exchanged for a dog Deut. 23:19
Not to burn honey or yeast on the altar Lev. 2:11
To salt all sacrifices Lev. 2:13
Not to omit the salt from sacrifices Lev. 2:13
Carry out the procedure of the burnt offering as prescribed in the Torah Lev. 1:3
Not to eat its meat Deut. 12:17
Carry out the procedure of the sin offering Lev. 6:18
Not to eat the meat of the inner sin offering Lev. 6:23
Not to decapitate a fowl brought as a sin offering Lev. 5:8
Carry out the procedure of the guilt offering Lev. 7:1
The Kohanim must eat the sacrificial meat in the Temple Ex. 29:33
The Kohanim must not eat the meat outside the Temple courtyard Deut. 12:17
A non-Kohen must not eat sacrificial meat Ex. 29:33
To follow the procedure of the peace offering Lev. 7:11
Not to eat the meat of minor sacrifices before sprinkling the blood Deut. 12:17
To bring meal offerings as prescribed in the Torah Lev. 2:1
Not to put oil on the meal offerings of wrongdoers Lev. 5:11
Not to put frankincense on the meal offerings of wrongdoers Lev. 3:11
Not to eat the meal offering of the High Priest Lev. 6:16
Not to bake a meal offering as leavened bread Lev. 6:10
The Kohanim must eat the remains of the meal offerings Lev. 6:9
To bring all avowed and freewill offerings to the Temple on the first subsequent festival Deut. 12:5-6
Not to withhold payment incurred by any vow Deut. 23:22
To offer all sacrifices in the Temple Deut. 12:11
To bring all sacrifices from outside Israel to the Temple Deut. 12:26
Not to slaughter sacrifices outside the courtyard Lev. 17:4
Not to offer any sacrifices outside the courtyard Deut. 12:13
To offer two lambs every day Num. 28:3
To light a fire on the altar every day Lev. 6:6
Not to extinguish this fire Lev. 6:6
To remove the ashes from the altar every day Lev. 6:3
To burn incense every day Ex. 30:7
To light the Menorah every day Ex. 27:21
The Kohen Gadol ("High Priest") must bring a meal offering every day Lev. 6:13
To bring two additional lambs as burnt offerings on Shabbat Num. 28:9
To make the show bread Ex. 25:30
To bring additional offerings on Rosh Chodesh (" The New Month") Num. 28:11
To bring additional offerings on Passover Num. 28:19
To offer the wave offering from the meal of the new wheat Lev. 23:10
Each man must count the Omer - seven weeks from the day the new wheat offering was brought Lev. 23:15
To bring additional offerings on Shavuot Num. 28:26
To bring two leaves to accompany the above sacrifice Lev. 23:17
To bring additional offerings on Rosh Hashana Num. 29:2
To bring additional offerings on Yom Kippur Num. 29:8
To bring additional offerings on Sukkot Num. 29:13
To bring additional offerings on Shmini Atzeret Num. 29:35
Not to eat sacrifices which have become unfit or blemished Deut. 14:3
Not to eat from sacrifices offered with improper intentions Lev. 7:18
Not to leave sacrifices past the time allowed for eating them Lev. 22:30
Not to eat from that which was left over Lev. 19:8
Not to eat from sacrifices which became impure Lev. 7:19
An impure person must not eat from sacrifices Lev. 7:20
To burn the leftover sacrifices Lev. 7:17
To burn all impure sacrifices Lev. 7:19
To follow the procedure of Yom Kippur in the sequence prescribed in Parshah Acharei Mot ("After the death of Aaron's sons...") Lev. 16:3
One who profaned property must repay what he profaned plus a fifth and bring a sacrifice Lev. 5:16
Not to work consecrated animals Deut. 15:19
Not to shear the fleece of consecrated animals Deut. 15:19
To slaughter the paschal sacrifice at the specified time Ex. 12:6
Not to slaughter it while in possession of leaven Ex. 23:18
Not to leave the fat overnight Ex. 23:18
To slaughter the second Paschal Lamb Num. 9:11
To eat the Paschal Lamb with matzah and Marror on the night of the fourteenth of Nissan Ex. 12:8
To eat the second Paschal Lamb on the night of the 15th of Iyar Num. 9:11
Not to eat the paschal meat raw or boiled Ex. 12:9
Not to take the paschal meat from the confines of the group Ex. 12:46
An apostate must not eat from it Ex. 12:43
A permanent or temporary hired worker must not eat from it Ex. 12:45
An uncircumcised male must not eat from it Ex. 12:48
Not to break any bones from the paschal offering Ex. 12:46
Not to break any bones from the second paschal offering Num. 9:12
Not to leave any meat from the paschal offering over until morning Ex. 12:10
Not to leave the second paschal meat over until morning Num. 9:12
Not to leave the meat of the holiday offering of the 14th until the 16th Deut. 16:4
To be seen at the Temple on Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot Deut. 16:16
To celebrate on these three Festivals (bring a peace offering) Ex. 23:14
To rejoice on these three Festivals (bring a peace offering) Deut. 16:14
Not to appear at the Temple without offerings Deut. 16:16
Not to refrain from rejoicing with, and giving gifts to, the Levites Deut. 12:19
To assemble all the people on the Sukkot following the seventh year Deut. 31:12
To set aside the firstborn animals Ex. 13:12
The Kohanim must not eat unblemished firstborn animals outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
Not to redeem the firstborn Num. 18:17
Separate the tithe from animals Lev. 27:32
Not to redeem the tithe Lev. 27:33
Every person must bring a sin offering (in the temple) for his transgression Lev. 4:27
Bring an asham talui (temple offering) when uncertain of guilt Lev. 5:17-18
Bring an asham vadai (temple offering) when guilt is ascertained Lev. 5:25
Bring an oleh v'yored (temple offering) offering (if the person is wealthy, an animal; if poor, a bird or meal offering) Lev. 5:7-11
The Sanhedrin must bring an offering (in the Temple) when it rules in error Lev. 4:13
A woman who had a running (vaginal) issue must bring an offering (in the Temple) after she goes to the Mikveh Lev. 15:28-29
A woman who gave birth must bring an offering (in the Temple) after she goes to the Mikveh Lev. 12:6
A man who had a running (unnatural urinary) issue must bring an offering (in the Temple) after he goes to the Mikveh Lev. 15:13-14
A metzora must bring an offering (in the Temple) after going to the Mikveh Lev. 14:10
Not to substitute another beast for one set apart for sacrifice Lev. 27:10
The new animal, in addition to the substituted one, retains consecration Lev. 27:10
Not to change consecrated animals from one type of offering to another Lev. 27:26
Carry out the laws of impurity of the dead Num. 19:14
Carry out the procedure of the Red Heifer (Para Aduma) Num. 19:2
Carry out the laws of the sprinkling water Num. 19:21
Rule the laws of human tzara'at as prescribed in the Torah Lev. 13:12
The metzora must not remove his signs of impurity Deut. 24:8
The metzora must not shave signs of impurity in his hair Lev. 13:33
The metzora must publicize his condition by tearing his garments, allowing his hair to grow and covering his lips Lev. 13:45
Carry out the prescribed rules for purifying the metzora Lev. 14:2
The metzora must shave off all his hair prior to purification Lev. 14:9
Carry out the laws of tzara'at of clothing Lev. 13:47
Carry out the laws of tzara'at of houses Lev. 13:34
Observe the laws of menstrual impurity Lev. 15:19
Observe the laws of impurity caused by childbirth Lev. 12:2
Observe the laws of impurity caused by a woman's running issue Lev. 15:25
Observe the laws of impurity caused by a man's running issue (irregular ejaculation of infected semen) Lev. 15:3
Observe the laws of impurity caused by a dead beast Lev. 11:39
Observe the laws of impurity caused by the eight shratzim (insects) Lev. 11:29
Observe the laws of impurity of a seminal emission (regular ejaculation, with normal semen) Lev. 15:16
Observe the laws of impurity concerning liquid and solid foods Lev. 11:34
Every impure person must immerse himself in a Mikvah to become pure Lev. 15:16
The court must judge the damages incurred by a goring ox Ex. 21:28
The court must judge the damages incurred by an animal eating Ex. 22:4
The court must judge the damages incurred by a pit Ex. 21:33
The court must judge the damages incurred by fire Ex. 22:5
Not to steal money stealthily Lev. 19:11
The court must implement punitive measures against the thief Ex. 21:37
Each individual must ensure that his scales and weights are accurate Lev. 19:36
Not to commit injustice with scales and weights Lev. 19:35
Not to possess inaccurate scales and weights even if they are not for use Deut. 25:13
Not to move a boundary marker to steal someone's property Deut. 19:14
Not to kidnap Ex. 20:13
Not to rob openly Lev. 19:13
Not to withhold wages or fail to repay a debt Lev. 19:13
Not to covet and scheme to acquire another's possession Ex. 20:14
Not to desire another's possession Deut. 5:18
Return the robbed object or its value Lev. 5:23
Not to ignore a lost object Deut. 22:3
Return the lost object Deut. 22:1
The court must implement laws against the one who assaults another or damages another's property Ex. 21:18
Not to murder Ex. 20:13
Not to accept monetary restitution to atone for the murderer Num. 35:31
The court must send the accidental murderer to a city of refuge Num. 35:25
Not to accept monetary restitution instead of being sent to a city of refuge Num. 35:32
Not to kill the murderer before he stands trial Num. 35:12
Save someone being pursued even by taking the life of the pursuer Deut. 25:12
Not to pity the pursuer Num. 35:12
Not to stand idly by if someone's life is in danger Lev. 19:16
Designate cities of refuge and prepare routes of access Deut. 19:3
Break the neck of a calf by the river valley following an unsolved murder Deut. 21:4
Not to work nor plant that river valley Deut. 21:4
Not to allow pitfalls and obstacles to remain on your property Deut. 22:8
Make a guard rail around flat roofs Deut. 22:8
Not to put a stumbling block before a blind man (nor give harmful advice) Lev. 19:14
Help another remove the load from a beast which can no longer carry it Ex. 23:5
Help others load their beast Deut. 22:4
Not to leave others distraught with their burdens (but to help either load or unload) Deut. 22:4
Conduct sales according to Torah law Lev. 25:14
Not to overcharge or underpay for an article Lev. 25:14
Not to insult or harm anybody with words Lev. 25:17
Not to cheat a convert monetarily Ex. 22:20
Not to insult or harm a convert with words Ex. 22:20
Purchase a Hebrew slave in accordance with the prescribed laws Ex. 21:2
Not to sell him as a slave is sold Lev. 25:42
Not to work him oppressively Lev. 25:43
Not to allow a non-Jew to work him oppressively Lev. 25:53
Not to have him do menial slave labor Lev. 25:39
Give him gifts when he goes free Deut. 15:14
Not to send him away empty-handed Deut. 15:13
Redeem Jewish maidservants Ex. 21:8
Betroth the Jewish maidservant Ex. 21:8
The master must not sell his maidservant Ex. 21:8
Canaanite slaves must work forever unless injured in one of their limbs Lev. 25:46
Not to extradite a slave who fled to (Biblical) Israel Deut. 23:16
Not to wrong a slave who has come to Israel for refuge Deut. 23:16
The courts must carry out the laws of a hired worker and hired guard Ex. 22:9
Pay wages on the day they were earned Deut. 24:15
Not to delay payment of wages past the agreed time Lev. 19:13
The hired worker may eat from the unharvested crops where he works Deut. 23:25
The worker must not eat while on hired time Deut. 23:26
The worker must not take more than he can eat Deut. 23:25
Not to muzzle an ox while plowing Deut. 25:4
The courts must carry out the laws of a borrower Ex. 22:13
The courts must carry out the laws of an unpaid guard Ex. 22:6
Lend to the poor and destitute Ex. 22:24
Not to press them for payment if you know they don't have it Ex. 22:24
Press the idolater for payment Deut. 15:3
The creditor must not forcibly take collateral Deut. 24:10
Return the collateral to the debtor when needed Deut. 24:13
Not to delay its return when needed Deut. 24:12
Not to demand collateral from a widow Deut. 24:17
Not to demand as collateral utensils needed for preparing food Deut. 24:6
Not to lend with interest Lev. 25:37
Not to borrow with interest Deut. 23:20
Not to intermediate in an interest loan, guarantee, witness, or write the promissory note Ex. 22:24
Lend to and borrow from idolaters with interest Deut. 23:21
The courts must carry out the laws of the plaintiff, admitter, or denier Ex. 22:8
Carry out the laws of the order of inheritance Num. 27:8
Appoint judges Deut. 16:18
Not to appoint judges who are not familiar with judicial procedure Deut. 1:17
Decide by majority in case of disagreement Ex. 23:2
The court must not execute through a majority of one; at least a majority of two is required Ex. 23:2
A judge who presented an acquittal plea must not present an argument for conviction in capital cases Deut. 23:2
The courts must carry out the death penalty of stoning Deut. 22:24
The courts must carry out the death penalty of burning Lev. 20:14
The courts must carry out the death penalty of the sword Ex. 21:20
The courts must carry out the death penalty of strangulation Lev. 20:10
The courts must hang those stoned for blasphemy or idolatry Deut. 21:22
Bury the executed on the day they are killed Deut. 21:23
Not to delay burial overnight Deut. 21:23
The court must not let the sorcerer live Ex. 22:17
The court must give lashes to the wrongdoer Ex. 25:2
The court must not exceed the prescribed number of lashes Deut. 25:3
The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence Ex. 23:7
The court must not punish anybody who was forced to do a crime Deut. 22:26
A judge must not pity the murderer or assaulter at the trial Deut. 19:13
A judge must not have mercy on the poor man at the trial Lev. 19:15
A judge must not respect the great man at the trial Lev. 19:15
A judge must not decide unjustly the case of the habitual transgressor Ex. 23:6
A judge must not pervert justice Lev. 19:15
A judge must not pervert a case involving a convert or orphan Deut. 24:17
Judge righteously Lev. 19:15
The judge must not fear a violent man in judgment Deut. 1:17
Judges must not accept bribes Ex. 23:8
Judges must not accept testimony unless both parties are present Ex. 23:1
Not to curse judges Ex. 22:27
Not to curse the head of state or leader of the Sanhedrin Ex. 22:27
Not to curse any upstanding Jew Lev. 19:14
Anybody who knows evidence must testify in court Lev. 5:1
Carefully interrogate the witness Deut. 13:15
A witness must not serve as a judge in capital crimes Deut. 19:17
Not to accept testimony from a lone witness Deut. 19:15
Transgressors must not testify Ex. 23:1
Relatives of the litigants must not testify Deut. 24:16
Not to testify falsely Ex. 20:13
Punish the false witnesses as they tried to punish the defendant Deut. 19:19
Act according to the ruling of the Sanhedrin Deut. 17:11
Not to deviate from the word of the Sanhedrin Deut. 17:11
Not to add to the Torah commandments or their oral explanations Deut. 13:1
Not to diminish from the Torah any commandments, in whole or in part Deut. 13:1
Not to curse your father and mother Ex. 21:17
Not to strike your father and mother Ex. 21:15
Respect your father or mother Ex. 20:12
Fear your father or mother Lev. 19:3
Not to be a rebellious son Deut. 21:18
Mourn for relatives Lev. 10:19
The High Priest must not defile himself for any relative Lev. 21:11
The High Priest must not enter under the same roof as a corpse Lev. 21:11
A Kohen must not defile himself (by going to funerals or cemeteries) for anyone except relatives Lev. 21:1
Appoint a king from Israel Deut. 17:15
Not to appoint a foreigner Deut. 17:15
The king must not have too many wives Deut. 17:17
The king must not have too many horses Deut. 17:16
The king must not have too much silver and gold Deut. 17:17
Destroy the seven Canaanite nations Deut. 20:17
Not to let any of them remain alive Deut. 20:16
Wipe out the descendants of Amalek Deut. 25:19
Remember what Amalek did to the Jewish people Deut. 25:17
Not to forget Amalek's atrocities and ambush on our journey from Egypt in the desert Deut. 25:19
Not to dwell permanently in Egypt Deut. 17:16
Offer peace terms to the inhabitants of a city while holding siege, and treat them according to the Torah if they accept the terms Deut. 20:10
Not to offer peace to Ammon and Moab while besieging them Deut. 23:7
Not to destroy fruit trees even during the siege Deut. 20:19
Prepare latrines outside the camps Deut. 23:13
Prepare a shovel for each soldier to dig with Deut. 23:14
Appoint a priest to speak with the soldiers during the war Deut. 20:2
He who has taken a wife, built a new home, or planted a vineyard is given a year to rejoice with his possessions Deut. 24:5
Not to demand from the above any involvement, communal or military Deut. 24:5
Not to panic and retreat during battle Deut. 20:3
Keep the laws of the captive woman Deut. 21:11
Not to sell her into slavery Deut. 21:14
Not to retain her for servitude after having sexual relations with her Deut. 21:14

I'm not usually a big fan of wiki, but they were the easiest source for the above info.

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:12 pm

Diogenes wrote:Even if there is no eternal consequence, the present spiritual consequences of these actions will still be damaging. Not to even consider the social impacts.

Yeah...we can't have women running around and claiming that they can do sorcery. Better stone, burn, hang, or crush 'em in the name of Exodus 22:18.

Refresh my memory...what spiritual, health, or societal problem were those chicks causing again that merited a freaking death penalty?

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:23 am

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:
Diogenes wrote:Even if there is no eternal consequence, the present spiritual consequences of these actions will still be damaging. Not to even consider the social impacts.
Yeah...we can't have women running around and claiming that they can do sorcery. Better stone, burn, hang, or crush 'em in the name of Exodus 22:18.

Refresh my memory...what spiritual, health, or societal problem were those chicks causing again that merited a freaking death penalty?

A) It would have to be stoning. The other three aren't valid forms of punishment under Mosaic law.
B) The sorcery itself might be a problem. On top of that there is the fact that Judaism is an exclusive religion. God tends to frown on those who claim to serve him engaging in occult practices. Saul could tel you all about that.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:05 am

BTW...

A) No, I'm not going to go through each and every Mosaic law to explain its signifigance.

B) Maybe next time you could try something like...

The 613 commandments and their source in scripture, as enumerated by Maimonides:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TIA.

And 3) If you are actually interested in somebody applying the Mitzovt to modern life, there is a book you might find interesting...

http://www.ajjacobs.com/books/yolb.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Carry on.

battery chucka' one · Post by **battery chucka' one** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:29 am

Actually, the listed OT laws are those that one must keep in order to be considered 'righteous' in God's eyes. The only time that those sins could be taken off were once a year on the day of atonement. Then, it was just until you sinned again. No way any human could keep them for any extended period of time. They were to illustrate how God gave man (the descendants of Abraham) the chance to do it the world's way and, coupled with their repeated falling aways, how man just can't get it. Therefore, since man couldn't keep the Abrahamic covenant, he proved that he needed a savior. That would be Christ. JC, of course, boiled all those rules down into two. And, if you can perfectly keep both of those, you keep all the rest by proxy. Of course, man can't even do that. Therefore, we repeatedly need Christ and His forgiveness.

Making sense to you yet?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:43 am

Mike, Jesus appeared to Paul the same as he appeared to many others after his resurrection.
Your continuing hard-on for him is odd.

Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.
And this is exactly what he did.

The law is fulfilled IN Christ Jesus.
Some somehow can't grasp that, and I guess you're included.

Please read about the transfiguration of Jesus in Matthew 17:1-9.
It's a very telling passage.

1: And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2: And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3: And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4: Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5: While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6: And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7: And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8: And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9: And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Moses (the law) and Elias (the prophets) are superseded by Jesus Christ, because they law and the prophets are now WITHIN Him.

Peter said he was going to make THREE tabernacles, and he was shot down.
No need for three.

And it is so very interesting that nearly all churches of today 'build tabernacles' (even unwittingly so) for legalism (Moses) or unhealthy mysticism (Elias -- 'Charismatic churches, for one example).

This is why they ultimately flame out, and why the church is on it's death bed.
It won't stay there there, though, btw.
Christ's Church still exists.

Only the church built on Matthew 16:16 -- Jesus, you are THE Christ -- hold up, thrive, and fulfill God's plan.

So yes, churches make issues about behavior, citing Old Testament 'law' to back them up.
And they ought not focus on such things.
This is building the tabernacle for Moses.

Build your Church on Christ, and Christ alone, in whom ALL power is given in Heaven and on Earth.

battery chucka' one · Post by **battery chucka' one** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:16 am

Pop, I think that it pleases God that we keep His commandments, but we need keep them for the right reason. Is keeping the rules necessary for salvation? No. Not if we have Christ. He was wounded for all our transgressions. Does He care if we don't keep them? Yes. But keeping them comes back to respect for our Lord. We keep them because we love God. And this pleases Him. The rules are still in effect and are still wonderful reminders that yes, we need Christ still. We'll always need Him. Without Him, we are damned. We can't do it on our own. EVER.

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:50 pm

Diogenes wrote:BTW...

A) No, I'm not going to go through each and every Mosaic law to explain its signifigance.

That was sort of my point. A lot of those rules aren't handed down from "on high" and are made up shit. God no more cares about whether or not your clothing is made of two kinds of fabric then he does on who wins Super Bowls.

Diogenes wrote:B) Maybe next time you could try something like...

Quote:
The 613 commandments and their source in scripture, as enumerated by Maimonides:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pay attention. That's PRECISELY where I got my list. I even made a point of telling you I got it from wiki.

Paul wrote:Mike, Jesus appeared to Paul the same as he appeared to many others after his resurrection.

Actually, HE claims that Jesus appeared to him in "visions." When Jesus walked among the REAL Apostles (the guys who actually knew him, ate with him, knew his life story) after his Resurrection, he did so BODILY. Paul's is basically claiming that his seizures gave him the "inside skinny" on stuff somehow that Jesus forgot to mention during his three years with his best buds. Horseshit.

poptart wrote:Your continuing hard-on for him is odd.

Gee whiz...he makes a point of teaching doctrines that are either absent from, or contrary to, the things that Jesus is quoted as saying and that were being taught by JESUS'S OWN APOSTLES, and you wonder why I doubt him? Check out this link that has a chart showing where Paul's and Jesus's teachings differ to see that I'm not the only one who has issues with the glaring discrepancies.

Paul did not know Jesus during His ministry. He created philosophical and theological arguments out of whole cloth that were adopted to boost membership in a dying-out heretical sect of Judaism. His redefining of old doctrine and convenient twisting of Judaic law show the kind of convenient doublespeak that would make Bill Clinton proud.

Given his claim of "visions," I'm going to restate my classification of him from out-and-out conman to delusional nutjob with a gift for oratory and writing (never mind that he didn't actually write all the stuff attributed to him...).

poptart wrote:Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.
And this is exactly what he did.

The law is fulfilled IN Christ Jesus.

What the hell PRECISELY does "fulfilled" mean? And save that whole pseudomystical "if you don't know, then you need to pray on it" horseshit. Save the equivocating. Give me a CLEAR, unambiguous, answer, free of Scriptural quotes that may or may not have anything to do with the argument. Listing a bunch of Scripture is nothing more than the debating equivalent of dropping chaff to evade the issue.

Any claims that there is a clear meaning to what "fulfilled" means seem silly, given that I've just had one of "your contingent" state quite plainly that yes, when Jesus died and was resurrected, he fulfilled and thereby made null, Mosaic Law. Now YOU are telling me that "fulfilling" and "making unnecessary/void" are two DIFFERENT things.

Nuh-uh.

You guys cannot have it both ways.

In fact, that's one of the points of me bringing this up. Thumpers like to argue that the Bible is perfectly clear on all these theological issues, free of factual and theological contradictions and ambiguities, if only folks would just read and pray on it.

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT.

If that fact were true, then why in the hell are there Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists of various stripes, Elim Gospel nutjobs, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists, etc., ALL OF WHOM claim that they -and they alone- are the ones reading Scripture correctly. These are all genuinely devout folks, led by educated individuals who have dedicated their lives to discerning what they fervently believe to be the "RIGHT" way to interpret Scripture.

The fact that a quick google search can turn up apologetics pages for many of the aforementioned denominations that not only defend their views but also - using Scripture as well as any of you guys, and with the same sincerity and devotion- carefully explain why YOU are wrong, help show that any claims on your part that it's "clearly" laid out is not true in any sense. The last two thousand years of Christian history, with all the theological debates, schisms, etc. out front should have told you that.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:57 pm

mike wrote:What the hell PRECISELY does "fulfilled" mean? And save that whole pseudomystical "if you don't know, then you need to pray on it" horseshit. Save the equivocating. Give me a CLEAR, unambiguous, answer, free of Scriptural quotes that may or may not have anything to do with the argument. Listing a bunch of Scripture is nothing more than the debating equivalent of dropping chaff to evade the issue.

I'm not going to ask you to pray about anything, Mike (any more than I would expect to hear you ask me to pray about understanding your POV), but I AM going to ask you to look ... again ... at the passage from Matthew which I posted.

Read it from your own Bible if it's better for you.
Myself, I much prefer to read from my own Bible, as opposed to words on a screen.
But whatever .....

It's from Matthew 17, and it is very much worth noting that the 'highlight' of the happenings in the chapter previous to it (Matt 16), was Peter's realization and confession that Jesus IS the Christ.

Matthew 17:1-9

1: And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2: And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3: And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4: Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5: While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6: And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7: And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8: And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9: And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Questions?

1. Why in the world did Moses and Elias appear with Jesus?
2. What did they represent?

3. Why did Peter say they should build three tabernacles?
4. And more importantly, why was he INTERRUPTED BY GOD and told to look ONLY at Jesus (not Moses or Elias), and to listen to HIM?

Mike, if you want to believe that Paul was a false apostle, I'm not going to get into a protracted debate with you about it.

It's your choice to see that as you will.

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:31 pm

poptart wrote:1. Why in the world did Moses and Elias appear with Jesus?
2. What did they represent?

According to my old CCD education, they represented the Law and the Prophets, respectively, and their appearance was a validation of the claim that Jebus was going to fulfill them.

poptart wrote:3. Why did Peter say they should build three tabernacles?

He thought that now that he'd seen Jesus in that form, that he'd fulfilled everything and it was time to "get down and get funky" a la the Feast of Tabernacles. However, since Jesus had to die first, nothing was fulfilled quite yet.

poptart wrote:4. And more importantly, why was he INTERRUPTED BY GOD and told to look ONLY at Jesus (not Moses or Elias), and to listen to HIM?

See above.

You do realize, of course, that NONE of this answers the SPECIFIC request that I made to you - to explain, clearly, in plain English devoid of Scriptural "koans" and psychobabble ("read this and tell me what YOU think it means") what "fulfilling" means in regards to Mosaic Law.

Did Jesus's death and resurrection make the OT laws of Moses et al. null and void (and thus explaining why we can eat pork, run around uncircumcised, etc.) OR do the rules still apply, thereby requiring us to still follow Mosaic Laws. Nowhere have I seen a detailed checklist specifically letting me know which of 613 rules still apply and why.

I have a feeling that Paul's pulling his theology out of his deluded, epileptic, ass has a lot to do with it.

poptart wrote:Mike, if you want to believe that Paul was a false apostle, I'm not going to get into a protracted debate with you about it.

It's your choice to see that as you will.

Yep. and I'm running with it. Paul is not the author or architect of my faith. Jesus is, and no amount of "proxy" rules sent by Paul and "verified" by his conveniently unsubstantiated "visions" will change this. Paul is the Joseph Smith of his time - a deluded fuck making up shit (which got tacked onto the Bible by his followers...kinda like the Book of Mormon) and saying what he had to in order to get followers, finally getting martyred for his efforts.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:46 pm

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:
Diogenes wrote:BTW...

A) No, I'm not going to go through each and every Mosaic law to explain its signifigance.
That was sort of my point. A lot of those rules aren't handed down from "on high" and are made up shit.

Wrong.

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:
Diogenes wrote:B) Maybe next time you could try something like...

Quote:
The 613 commandments and their source in scripture, as enumerated by Maimonides:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pay attention. That's PRECISELY where I got my list. I even made a point of telling you I got it from wiki.

Nice of you. Now Pay Attention...

No oversized pics (if it spreads the thread out, size it down or link it).

Pics requiring a ! may or may not be aborted at moderators' discretion.

No reprinted text that is a gazillion lines long, just drop a link.

http://www.theoneboard.com/board/viewto ... 35&t=14742" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:
poptart wrote:Your continuing hard-on for him is odd.
Gee whiz...he makes a point of teaching doctrines that are either absent from, or contrary to, the things that Jesus is quoted as saying and that were being taught by JESUS'S OWN APOSTLES, and you wonder why I doubt him? Check out this link that has a chart showing where Paul's and Jesus's teachings differ to see that I'm not the only one who has issues with the glaring discrepancies.

An anonymous web site brought to you by followers of the Uratania Book?

How fresh.

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:01 pm

Diogenes wrote:Nice of you. Now Pay Attention...

No oversized pics (if it spreads the thread out, size it down or link it).

Pics requiring a ! may or may not be aborted at moderators' discretion.

No reprinted text that is a gazillion lines long, just drop a link.

http://www.theoneboard.com/board/viewto ... 35&t=14742" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Isn't it convenient of you to NOW decide to chastise me for that post, as opposed to addressing the topic at hand? I mean, as a mod of the forum, if that post TRULY annoyed you enough to call me out for "breaking the rules," why not address it immediately after I first posted it instead of waiting to bring it up after you've already responded to it (without going "rules judge")? Red herring much?

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:An anonymous web site brought to you by followers of the Uratania Book?

How fresh.

Ah - so instead of addressing the completely valid issues that the website brings up, you attack the source. Nice ad hominem. I'll have to keep that strategy in mind the next time you thumpers cite any Christian websites to back up your arguments...I'll just dismiss your references out of hand without considering the actual merits of the materials.

Must be wonderful to be a thumper and not have to think critically. The other cool thing is that, historically, you could stop the debate if you were losing by yelling "HERETIC!"

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:17 pm

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:
Diogenes wrote:Nice of you. Now Pay Attention...

No oversized pics (if it spreads the thread out, size it down or link it).

Pics requiring a ! may or may not be aborted at moderators' discretion.

No reprinted text that is a gazillion lines long, just drop a link.

http://www.theoneboard.com/board/viewto ... 35&t=14742" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Isn't it convenient of you to NOW decide to chastise me for that post, as opposed to addressing the topic at hand? I mean, as a mod of the forum, if that post TRULY annoyed you enough to call me out for "breaking the rules," why not address it immediately after I first posted it instead of waiting to bring it up after you've already responded to it (without going "rules judge")?

Actually I was busy. I posted my response, then added on a follow up as soon as I could.

And I wasn't 'calling you out' as much as giving you the benefit of the doubt that it was inadvertent and cutting you some slack (instead of just editing it myself).

You're welcome.

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:Ah - so instead of addressing the completely valid issues that the website brings up, you attack the source. Nice ad hominem.

More of a drive by. But the point is that it is an anonymous site that tries hiding it's agenda (and lacks bibliographies, footnotes, etc.).

If I see any 'valid points' next time I look at it, I'll address them.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:10 am

Mike the Lab Rat wrote: You do realize, of course, that NONE of this answers the SPECIFIC request that I made to you - to explain, clearly, in plain English devoid of Scriptural "koans" and psychobabble ("read this and tell me what YOU think it means") what "fulfilling" means in regards to Mosaic Law.

This is funny.
You want me to reason with you about 'the law' and Jesus Christ, but you don't like for me to use Scripture in doing so? haha
Mike, it may work that way for you, but if you want to hear my replies you'll have to pardon me for telling you what the Bible says about it.

This could be very long, so I'll condense things as best I can.
Bear with me.

'The law' is the entirety of O.T. Scripture.

Jesus said, Matthew 5:17, that He did not come to destroy the law ... OR THE PROPHETS.
People of your ilk dismiss the PROPHETS part and just like to focus attention to His speaking of 'the law' only.
Jesus said (same verse) that He came to fulfill the law .... AND the prophets.

Ok .....

We agree (I think) that Jesus has in fact fulfilled what was spoken by the prophets.
He fulfilled the prophets by bringing their words to their intended escatological climax in himself.
Right?

When Christ resurrected he met two disciples on the road to Emmaus, and He told them that all that happened in Jerusalem was spoken of by the prophets.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Then He also appeared to a group of apostles and disciples in Jerusalem and said to them ...

Luke 24:44 These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Jesus said here that He fulfilled ALL THREE aspects of the Old Testament -- the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms.
Hence the meaning of 'the law' that you want to assign to it is incorrect.

'The law and the prophets' that Jesus speaks of is the same thing as ALL THE SCRIPTURES.

It is that He has fulfilled all the Scriptures.

In verse 18 of Matthew Jesus said that nothing will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
What does He mean by 'the law' ... ?

He's NOT speaking of Mosaic law code, because verse 18 is building off of what He said in verse 17, and there would have been NO REASON for Him to say diddly squat about the ... THE PROPHETS, as he did.

'The law' represents Old Testament writings.
And all of THAT is what He has fulfilled and not destroyed.

Look at John 10:34, Jesus speaking to the Jews says .....

John 10:34 Is it not written in your LAW, I said, Ye are gods?

The same thing happens in John 12:34 and John 15:25 -- where the ENTIRETY OF SCRIPTURE is the law.

John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

John 15:25, Jesus says ... But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Again, it is a certainty that THE LAW is referring to the entirety of Scripture, and THAT is what Jesus Christ has fulfilled.

Now I know you are screaming because in Matthew 5 Jesus also goes on to tell about not breaking commandments, etc ....

Look at verse 20 of Matthew 5.
Jesus said that unless a person's righteousness exceed that of the scribes and pharisees they shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Geez, good freaking luck, man.
Jesus came and died a horrific sacrificial death for us ..... so that we could then work our @ss off trying to follow the law to an extent greater than the pharisees in HOPE that it will be good enough for us to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?
It's frickin' PREPOSTEROUS, dude.
It's a joke.
Get a grip.

NOBDODY is going to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?
Is that it?
Is the the message Jesus is giving?

LMAO

Of course not, silly.
A person's 'righteousness' in the eyes of God is assumed by believing in HIM, Who fulfilled the law and the prophets -- or ... all Scripture.
I previously attempted to demonstrate that to you by having you look at the transfiguration incident in Matthew 17.

Christ came and redefined the letter of the law into it's spiritual intent.

Did Jesus's death and resurrection make the OT laws of Moses et al. null and void (and thus explaining why we can eat pork, run around uncircumcised, etc.) OR do the rules still apply, thereby requiring us to still follow Mosaic Laws.

What do you think?
Do you follow 'the 'law' somehow?

Go for it, if you think you need to.

It's not necessary.
Much/most of 'the law' is good and beneficial, but we are not bound by it.

We ought to be bound to Christ, for He is the vine and we are the branches.
Apart from HIM, we can do nothing.

Saul was KING PHARISEE.
HIGHLY schooled, a VERY diligent follower of the law, and a vicious Christian hater.
Suddenly, his character did an AMAZING 180.
Paul became a devoted follower of Christ, speaking only of Christ.
And he became the very greatest evangelist the world has ever seen.
Humble and meek of heart.
And he died a martyr's death for his trust in the risen Christ.

Poo poo that away all you like.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:07 pm

poptart wrote:Again, it is a certainty that THE LAW is referring to the entirety of Scripture, and THAT is what Jesus Christ has fulfilled.

OK, so why is it not imperative that Christians live their lives in accordance with ALL of the Old Testament laws?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:14 pm

Because everything is fulfilled in Christ.

In God's sight a man is fully justified and righteous when he believes and receives the Christ, who happens to be Jesus.