T1B

Posted: **Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:56 am**

Felix wrote:try rereading what I asked bud

No need, but if you insist...

name me one thing that any religion has produced that has bettered mankind....

Catholicism is a "religion", yes?

Catholic schools are second to none, produced by that religion, correct?

Here's the tricky part. Now you have to tell me why those schools haven't bettered mankind.

I doubt you can do it w/o mentioning pedophile priests, but go ahead and try.

Posted: **Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:25 am**

War Wagon wrote: No need, but if you insist...

Catholicism is a "religion", yes?

yes

Catholic schools are second to none, produced by that religion, correct?

well that could be argued but lets say for the sake the answer is yes

Here's the tricky part. Now you have to tell me why those schools haven't bettered mankind.

do you even understand what I mean by "bettering mankind"? Simply being a nice person isn't the betterment of the human condition....developing a formula for the pasteurization of milk is an example of improving mans condition...development of a vaccine for polio or small pox is a betterment, the exploration of space betters mankind-robotics, medicine, computers, modern farming, fertilizer are examples of improving man and his well being

now you provide me any examples of these types of improvements that are directly attributable to religion or a belief in the bible

on the contrary, religion stifles mans development...if man held fast to the idea that god created everything, we would have never unlocked the secrets of DNA and the human genome, we'd have never discovered germs and disease we'd never have theorized about atoms...the list goes on and on

watch this video and you might get what I'm driving at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzdv2dsPPKw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted: **Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:35 am**

What would be your definition of God or a God ? - If you believed. Even if you don't. You seem to have a good handle on what God is not, or what God shouldn't be. So there must be, among all that deep thought, the notion of what God - should be.

Would you lay that out for the crowd ?

Posted: **Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:01 am**

Tom In VA wrote:You seem to have a good handle on what God is not, or what God shouldn't be.

I think you're getting the wrong impression here.....if you or anybody else wants to believe in some mystical being in the sky that metes out punishment and rewards seemingly on a whim, who am I to tell you "he" doesn't exist

as tart would say, that's what faith is all about

me, I tend toward the agnostic (not atheistic)

Posted: **Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:38 am**

Felix, for the 'why does God allow starving in Africa' question, here is an answer:

As you've heard similarly from me many times, man had no starvation when he was with God, as he was created to be, and was living by God's grace.
Man is not created as a being that can live apart from God.
And yet that is what he did.
That is why the problems are so severe around us.

Have you seen what happens to a fish when you remove him from the water and place him on the ground?

Man left God's Word and theses curses and disasters have no choice but to come to him.
We are told in Genesis 3:19 that the very ground is cursed.
It's fascinating.

Famine is spoken of early (and often) in the Bible.
God called Abraham (the 'father of faith') and sent him into a land ... that was suffering severe famine.

There is famine now and there will be much worse famine in the future, IMO.

Why is it those people in Africa who are starving, and not you or I?
We see this in Act 17:26.

and (God) hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

God predetermined when and where folks would live.

He determined, for example, that li'l ol' Felix would live in Idaho U.S.A. in the late 20th and early 21st century.
God also determined that Felix would have this chance to hear about the Gospel of life.

The Bible speaks clearly and often to the fact that God has predestined believers.
Says that he 'knew' us and 'planned' things for us.

There is definitely an element of 'mystery' to such a thing and I don't pretend to know all the answers.
I just know what is in the Bible ... what God (who I am not) has decided to reveal to us.

Why God predetermined that I would not be among starving in Africa, I don't know for sure.
Why are others placed in that awful place?

If God knew me before the foundation of the earth, which the Bible says, then it seems very likely that he also knew those starving in Africa before the foundation of the earth, and those who would never hear the Gospel.

I safely assume that there is a reason for this, based on something that happened before the foundation of the earth, that the 'unfortunate' among us ended up in an 'unfortunate' situation.

It may seem highly unjust from our perspective, but from God's perspective, it is perfectly just.

I can speculate more, but it's not helpful to the conversation.

What is clear is that God has chosen to give Felix the opportunity to hear the Gospel.

Posted: **Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:54 pm**

poptart wrote: It may seem highly unjust from our perspective, but from God's perspective, it is perfectly just.

really?

what's "just" about this

you seem to be telling me this child was born without arms because adam and eve ate some fruit? damn, god is quite the curmudgeon to carry a grudge for this long

I know, it's because god loves him so much

Posted: **Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:32 pm**

Felix wrote:
Tom In VA wrote:You seem to have a good handle on what God is not, or what God shouldn't be.
I think you're getting the wrong impression here.....if you or anybody else wants to believe in some mystical being in the sky that metes out punishment and rewards seemingly on a whim, who am I to tell you "he" doesn't exist

as tart would say, that's what faith is all about

me, I tend toward the agnostic (not atheistic)

Aww shucks, sir, thanks for the patronizing response. I am not religious Felix. Nor do I have enough vestiges of Christian compassion within myself to care if you are.

You've asked a question, here's your answer. Religion has most definitely given you a muse to feed you delusions of superiority, which you believe is of benefit to mankind and to starving people in Africa. I am curious as to how many agnostics sacrifice everything of their own to tend to the poor. I know they exist, but I harken to guess that they are in the minority as opposed to those fueled by Christ's perfect love and mercy.

My question to you remains. You can choose to answer it or not.

Posted: **Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:18 pm**

Tom In VA wrote:I know they exist, but I harken to guess that they are in the minority as opposed to those fueled by Christ's perfect love and mercy.

Considering that (at least in this country) Christians outnumber agnostics something like 30 to 1, that’s probably a safe bet.

Posted: **Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:43 pm**

I know multiple people who are charitable to a fault. They all have one thing in common... none of them are devout christians... not one.

OK, I can think of one "casual christian" out of the bunch.

Posted: **Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:32 pm**

Tom In VA wrote:

Aww shucks, sir, thanks for the patronizing response.

It was not my intent to be patronizing (okay, maybe a little) but the gist of my response was for all intents and purposes spot on…those whose lives revolve around a religious tenant actually believe there is some mystical being that resides somewhere that determines who is rewarded and who is punished…based on tarts belief, no amount of good deeds can get you into heaven…it’s only if you accept Jesus as your lord and savior….so, by that logic if Hitler truly believed in Jesus as Savior, he gets into heaven, meanwhile the Jew that he gassed who spent an exemplary life goes straight to hell-tell me, what sense is there in that…make no mistake about it, if such an entity exists (that’s the agnostic in me speaking) it’s my opinion that his cruelty knows no bounds…he holds everyone hostage by issuing an ultimatum-worship him or suffer eternal punishment and no matter how you live your life, unless you accepted Jesus as Savior your going to hell….I’ve used Mahatma Gandhi as an example of somebody that’s burning in hell right now according to tart’s definition of what one must do to get to heaven….sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever…

You've asked a question, here's your answer. Religion has most definitely given you a muse to feed you delusions of superiority, which you believe is of benefit to mankind and to starving people in Africa.

now who's being patronizing? I don't view agnosticism as superior to the conviction of faith…point is, it takes a lot more intestinal fortitude to believe in a supernatural being than it does to doubt his existence…I have great admiration for people that TRULY believe that god exists, especially in this fucked up world we live in….

I am curious as to how many agnostics sacrifice everything of their own to tend to the poor. I know they exist, but I harken to guess that they are in the minority as opposed to those fueled by Christ's perfect love and mercy.

I can’t speak for other agnostics/atheists, but I give both money and my time to the poor….I’ve spent numerous Thanksgivings doling out food to the homeless, I work in the local food bank stacking donated food and putting together food baskets for those in need, I’ve worked at a local church helping them tend to their garden which provides enormous amounts of fresh vegetables to the needy, I give money on a regular basis to a number of charities that provide food and clothing to the poor…do I do everything I could-probably not, but I do know that I do a lot more than many Christians do

My question to you remains. You can choose to answer it or not.

I’m assuming you’re referring to the “what should God be” question? Again, how can I speculate on something I have no faith in…I don’t know what god should be….tell me, what do you think a snozzaker should look like?

mvscal wrote:
Pussy.

ouch

Posted: **Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:43 pm**

Felix wrote: do you even understand what I mean by "bettering mankind"?

I could care less what the definition of "bettering mankind" means to you. Apparently, you think it involves stupendous accomplishments, of which ordinary mortals need not apply. To me, it means being a productive, non-criminal member of society.

You asked a stupid question:

name me one thing that any religion has produced that has bettered mankind....

And I gave you a straight answer. Catholic schools, by any definition, have bettered mankind. IMO, there's no doubt of this fact. But then you attempt to move the goal posts and equate "bettering mankind" with curing cancer. Oh, ok. :roll:

You're a dumbfuck with your head so firmly lodged up your ass I have no idea why I'd waste one minute responding to your ignorant tripe. However:

I think you're getting the wrong impression here.....if you or anybody else wants to believe in some mystical being in the sky that metes out punishment and rewards seemingly on a whim, who am I to tell you "he" doesn't exist

No, I don't have the "wrong impression" here. I'm convinced you're a mealy mouthed idiot who spouts moronic nonsense just to read what you've typed and then pat yourself on the back saying that hey, that sounded really smart.

And no, I don't believe that the God of my understanding is "some mystical being in the sky". God means different things to different people, and to me it's a deeply personal, prayerful, spiritual type relationship.

Do you have a problem with that?

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:00 am**

Well we weren't discussing what God "LOOKED" like, but I commend you my slippery one on drawing this out even further.

A snozzaker, I don't know probably looks something like --

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:59 am**

mvscal wrote:

Pasteur was a devout Catholic.

are you fucking kidding me....do you have any idea what the Roman Catholic church was like in the mid-1800's (I know you do, because you're a history specialist)....It would be safe to say that he developed the pasteurization process and hsi breakthroughs in immunology and vaccination IN SPITE of being a catholic...

that would be like me saying that George Washington Carver was a brilliant agricultural researcher because he was black

It is quite idiotic to suggest that schools, hospitals, orphanages and other charities do not contribute to the betterment of mankind.

I stated, religion stifles not expands mans growth (e.g. scientific development)..of course schools hospitals and the like contribute to the betterment of society...but the human kindness is not brought from religion, our humanity is an inherent quality in every human being that is necessary to the survival of our species..there's nothing mystical about it

it's not atheists/agnostics flying planes into buildings...it's not atheists/agnostics detonating pipe bombs in Belfast...it's not atheists/agnostics blowing up subways in Madrid

the list goes on and on

Tom, I see you working here and no amount of cajoling is going to make me set my foot into that trap your laying

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:24 am**

Felix wrote:our humanity is an inherent quality in every human being that is necessary to the survival of our species..there's nothing mystical about it

Jesus Christ. That's the dumbest thing I've ever read.

Quit while you're behind, mush mouth.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:33 am**

War Wagon wrote:
Jesus Christ. That's the dumbest thing I've ever read.

you see whitey, that's why the vast majority of the board thinks your a fucking gene splice....I present opinions backed by reasoned thoughts...you hurl insults...that's why I've pretty much ignored you to this point...

but here's your chance-explain why you think it's a learned behavior (if it's not inherent then it's learned-there are no other alternatives)

and you're going to need to come up with something substantial (something like empirical data)

the floors is all yours

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:56 am**

Felix wrote:I present opinions backed by reasoned thoughts

You're a pathetic fool.

Probably gay, seeking desperately for acceptance whenever and wherever you might get it. 'tarts your Sister Christian friend.

What's up, Miss Demeanor? Along with orc's parody of Mr. Potato heads microphone, a dude trolling as a chick will never not be funny.

Don't preach to me, fag boy. Go ahead and ignore. Pretty much what I do with an internet bitch like yourself.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:40 am**

you seem pretty upset-tough day at the warehouse?

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:53 am**

Felix wrote:
I stated, religion stifles not expands mans growth (e.g. scientific development)

Speaking in absolutes? How un-liberal of you...

..of course schools hospitals and the like contribute to the betterment of society...

Ya reckon?

but the human kindness is not brought from religion,

Amen. It is brought on by that whole created in the image of God thing. Oh, and before you say it...As a right-wing wacko Christian zealot I reserve the right to speak in absolutes.

our humanity is an inherent quality in every human being that is necessary to the survival of our species..there's nothing mystical about it

Been to East L.A. lately? Sunnyside in H-Town? D.C? Folsom? Inherent? Humanity? Blatant humanists crack me up hardcore. Thanks for the laughs.

it's not atheists/agnostics flying planes into buildings...it's not atheists/agnostics detonating pipe bombs in Belfast...it's not atheists/agnostics blowing up subways in Madrid

the list goes on and on

Sweet! May I add some? Crack dealers, thieves, adulterers, perjurers (oops), murderers, pornographers, kiddie diddlers. All, without question, DIRECT results of religion. OH THE HUMANITY

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:13 pm**

War Wagon wrote:Don't preach to me, fag boy. Go ahead and ignore. Pretty much what I do with an internet bitch like yourself.

Jesus Christ, Whitey, you’ve got 7 posts on this page alone, every one of them directed at Felix. That’s how they define “ignore” down in Misery?

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:28 pm**

rozy wrote:

..of course schools hospitals and the like contribute to the betterment of society...

Ya reckon?

sure....but so do non-religious hospitals-or are you saying that religious hospitals provide superior services to non-religious hospitals

but the human kindness is not brought from religion,

It is brought on by that whole created in the image of God thing.
Oh, and before you say it...As a right-wing wacko Christian zealot I reserve the right to speak in absolutes. [/b]

then why do you suppose that society's that have no belief in the Christian god outlaw murder

Been to East L.A. lately? Sunnyside in H-Town? D.C? Folsom? Inherent? Humanity? Blatant humanists crack me up hardcore. Thanks for the laughs.

there have been criminals and murderers throughout history-this in no way negates my assertion

Crack dealers, thieves, adulterers, perjurers (oops), murderers, pornographers, kiddie diddlers.

the groups I listed have committed their offenses in the name of religion or some religious belief..the people you've listed are nothing more than common criminals...unless of course you can come up with examples of crack dealers that were peddling crack for the sake of their church, or thieves that steal in the name of God (btw, preachers that fleece their congregations are not really stealing for God, as they tend to pocket the profits)

All, without question, DIRECT results of religion. OH THE HUMANITY[/b]

patronization noted

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:08 pm**

There was no trap Felix.

But if there was, would cheese have worked ?

You, you dirty rat.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:24 pm**

Goober McTuber wrote:
Jesus Christ, Whitey, you’ve got 7 posts on this page alone, every one of them directed at Felix. That’s how they define “ignore” down in Misery?

This forum is rife with Felix droppings in thread after thread where he espouses his venal brand of secular humanism. This is one of the rare times where I've called him on it.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:41 pm**

Felix wrote:I stated, religion stifles not expands mans growth (e.g. scientific development)..

Ever hear of Isaac Newton?

I think your own emotional response to how you view God (or don't view... or whatever way that works out for your agnostic mind) is causing you to stick you head up your ass when trying to argue this point....

The problem is you don't see it. Might be because you need a flashlight to see with the shit in your eyes....

Your own stupidity is making this stupid thread even more so....

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:05 pm**

Nacho wrote:

I think your own emotional response to how you view God (or don't view... or whatever way that works out for your agnostic mind) is causing you to stick you head up your ass when trying to argue this point

why do you and your kind get so emotionally wrapped up in the opinion of somebody that disagrees with your point of view? It's the same thing every time-I express an opinion about my personal disbelief in god and the next thing you know your ilk is hurling insults....you've got your opinion and I've got mine...there's no need to get all huffy about it

The problem is you don't see it. Might be because you need a flashlight to see with the shit in your eyes....

this is merely a reworking of tart's patented "you just don't get it" statement, but go ahead and point out what it is you think that I don't see-now something you should probably be aware of is that I was born and baptized a Roman Catholic, I attended catholic grade schools all of my life and graduated from a Catholic High School...so what is it about religion that you think I don't know or don't see....

do you agree with tart in that the world is only a few thousand years old, because if you're a strict adherent to the tenants of the bible, that's what you've got to believe...do you stone your children? do you beat your slaves the way the bible says you should? have you ever worked a job on a Sunday? if so, you're violating the strict tenants of the book you defend....how do you reconcile those inconsistencies? how do you reconcile the inconsistencies of the bible itself? Do you adhere to the belief that only acceptance of jesus as your savior will get you a pass into heaven? if so, how do you reconcile the whole Hitler analogy I presented earlier? why did god create diseases, then give us antibodies to fight said diseases? why were the Gnostic Gospels excluded from the bible? Why were Thomas's gospels and gospel of Nicodemus excluded from the bible?

answer those and i'll come up with some more

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:13 pm**

"why do you and your kind get so emotionally wrapped up in the opinion of somebody that disagrees with your point of view? It's the same thing every time-I express an opinion about my personal disbelief in god and the next thing you know your ilk is hurling insults....you've got your opinion and I've got mine...there's no need to get all huffy about it"

I wasn't getting huffy about it. I could care less if you disagree with my point of view. Your lack of agreement is not going to effect my own security in my beliefs. Rather, I pointed out your insistence about "religion" not producing anything for the betterment of mankind as being drivel spoken from a slack jawed dimwitted drooling twit. A fact you haven't fully been able to defend since you keep running off with your mouth and a tendency to throw an emotional tantrum and fling wild accusations about in a totally illogical way.

Maybe if you slowed down enough to read what others are writing you would see your error.

"this is merely a reworking of tart's patented "you just don't get it" statement, but go ahead and point out what it is you think that I don't see-now something you should probably be aware of is that I was born and baptized a Roman Catholic, I attended catholic grade schools all of my life and graduated from a Catholic High School...so what is it about religion that you think I don't know or don't see...."

What is it that you don't see? How about all the questions people are asking you. Do you see those?

You need to get your eyes checked, or is it that your head is still stuck up your ass?

Others are "getting" that you are an idiot.

"do you agree with tart in that the world is only a few thousand years old, because if you're a strict adherent to the tenants of the bible, that's what you've got to believe...do you stone your children? do you beat your slaves the way the bible says you should? have you ever worked a job on a Sunday? if so, blah blah blah blah "fart noise" blah blah blah "sniffle" blah blah blah "changing the subject" blah blah blah "giggle like a little girl" blah blah blah "I'm so smart" blah blah blah "What was I saying" blah blah blah "

This was your response to me when I asked you if you had heard about Isaac Newton. Then you decided to answer my rhetorical questions about your own stupidity. You need to take something to keep you focused. Do you have ADD?

"answer those and i'll come up with some more"

Actually you will come up with more questions without me answering any that are asked of you. You are good at it. It's a skill nobody can take from you. Great job Skippy.....

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:37 pm**

Felix wrote:you should probably be aware of is that I was born and baptized a Roman Catholic, I attended catholic grade schools all of my life and graduated from a Catholic High School...

That explains everything. So did I. Which is why I don't believe, that you don't believe. I think you've rejected much of what you learned and see, but I think there is still a seed of belief inside.

I know you realize, that among most fundamentialist Christian denominations, Catholics are viewed disparagingly. All Religion is an attempt to understand the infinite. Something a finite mind cannot do. We can be AWARE of it, have an intuitive SENSE or KNOWEDGE of it, but we can never truly understand it.

Until we're dead, I suppose. Even then, it is becoming ONE with the infinite as opposed to "owning" it or being the source of it.

The vast number of religions should tell you that this is human nature. How can all these people from all these different regions have the same, in principle, notion ? It is either a malfunction of the brain in some people OR an innate sense with which we've been born. I choose to believe it the latter.

Hence the notion that the spiritual exists, along with the corporal. (Remember your education ;))

Can we agree on this much ?

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:45 pm**

Nacho wrote:
Actually you will come up with more questions without me answering any that are asked of you. You are good at it. It's a skill nobody can take from you. Great job Skippy.....

so you're not even going to attempt a response to my questions about the bible? good on you dawg

as for the points brought up by others, my point here is this:

Newton never made a public declaration of his private faith - which the orthodox would have deemed extremely radical. He hid his faith so well that scholars are still unravelling his personal beliefs.

Yes, he believed in God, but you seem to imply his brilliance in mathematics was a direct result of his faith-that's just plain stupid...how does newtonian mathematics, the theory of gravity, and the laws of motion relate to a belief in God..the simple answer is THEY DON'T you fucking pinhead

as for mvscals observations about the university system, yes I'll admit that he is correct, many of the great universities of the world were started by religious denominations

but perhaps you could explain to me why the religions that started those universities predominately oppose the theory of evolution so adamantly, when it's certainly more demonstratable than is "God made it"

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:10 pm**

Seriously - Newton was thinking outside of the box with or without the stroll he took through the conventional thought of the moment. Shit - When did he come up with his major works of thought? When Cambridge was closed due to a Plague scare.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:18 pm**

Felix wrote: but perhaps you could explain to me why the religions that started those universities predominately oppose the theory of evolution so adamantly, when it's certainly more demonstratable than is "God made it"

I always like this analogy. Jimi Hendrix couldn't read a note. But he played notes beautifully. He created music. People assigned names to those notes and now anyone can go to a book store and read sheet music of Jimi's songs.

God, created. Humans learn of this creation - ironically with other gifts of God's creations; the brain and the ability to reason. Humans then attach symbols - words - to explain what they've examined.

What you call your "Back", doctor's and those knowledgeable of science could break down into all the bone and tissue that compose what convention uses ONE word to describe. Even the terms the doctor's use are a matter of convention and reason. These symbols describe the subject - they are not the subject.

Lastly, Catholic and Episcopalian denominations started the schools you refer to and both those, to my knowledge, are open to evolution as being the method by which God created the world we see around us.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:19 pm**

PSUFAN wrote:Seriously - Newton was thinking outside of the box with or without the stroll he took through the conventional thought of the moment. Shit - When did he come up with his major works of thought? When Cambridge was closed due to a Plague scare.

His education there and the natural gift of God enabled him to reason.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:20 pm**

Tom In VA wrote:
That explains everything. So did I. Which is why I don't believe, that you don't believe. I think you've rejected much of what you learned and see, but I think there is still a seed of belief inside.

hence, me referring to myself as an agnostic as opposed to atheist

The vast number of religions should tell you that this is human nature. How can all these people from all these different regions have the same, in principle, notion ? It is either a malfunction of the brain in some people OR an innate sense with which we've been born. I choose to believe it the latter.

it's an attempt to answer the age old question of "why am I here"...people just can't accept the fact that we may have just been a product of a random series of events, and look for some deeper meaning to life...likewise, I'm of the opinion that most people simply don't want to accept that this may be all there is and there's nothing more.....religion is simply a form of control...

look at this and tell me what you think...

http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

how could they have come up with these stories prior to the birth of Jesus...answer those questions and we may have something to talk about

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:23 pm**

Newton, "Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done."

His faith was very relevant to how he viewed the world. So yes, it did have an impact on his scientific insights. In fact I believe he would say they underline why he looked into them in the first place.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:34 pm**

Nacho wrote: His faith was very relevant to how he viewed the world. So yes, it did have an impact on his scientific insights. In fact I believe he would say they underline why he looked into them in the first place.

look dude, I noted that Newton believed in "god" (whether it was the same god you believe in is up for debate). But stating that Newton's scientific discoveries were attributable to his belief in God is a GIANT fucking leap of logic

Newton's opinion on where the planets came from is about as valid as is yours....he wasn't trying to describe where the planets came from, only their motions...if he wants to believe that God made them that's his perrogative, but there is no scientific basis for his conclusions...I wonder if he'd view things differently had he known the Big Bang theory and the theory of abiogenesis......

that's tantamount to saying the theory of evolution is null and void because Darwin wasn't able to tell us where we came from.....the theory of evolution describes the diversity of life, not where we came from....

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:38 pm**

Felix wrote: look at this and tell me what you think...

http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

how could they have come up with these stories prior to the birth of Jesus...answer those questions and we may have something to talk about

Not surprised. That dude is either as nuts as me or we're onto something. I see parallels as well.

It doesn't negate the fact that Jesus was who He said he was, if of course you believe the story of Christ.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:48 pm**

Tom In VA wrote: That dude is either as nuts as me or we're onto something.

I think I'll go with the latter

It doesn't negate the fact that Jesus was who He said he was, if of course you believe the story of Christ.

well, other than a counterfeit document allegedly written by Josephus, there really is no proof for the existence of Jesus other than the bible itself (go ahead, call me a heretic)....but really, you'd have thought with all these miracles he was pulling off at least he would have merited a footnote in some other cultures history

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:18 pm**

Seriously, they could of fired up a message board or a blog or something and told the world about this dude in Jeruselem.

I hear you.

But they didn't.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:41 pm**

Tom In VA wrote:
But they didn't.

:(

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:46 pm**

Felix wrote: Newton's opinion on where the planets came from is about as valid as is yours....he wasn't trying to describe where the planets came from, only their motions...if he wants to believe that God made them that's his perrogative, but there is no scientific basis for his conclusions...

How magnanimous of you to allow Newton his beliefs. If he were alive today, I'm sure he'd regard you as an intellectual equal and the two of you would have much to discuss.

Posted: **Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:00 am**

Felix wrote:do you agree with tart in that the world is only a few thousand years old, because if you're a strict adherent to the tenants of the bible, that's what you've got to believe...do you stone your children? do you beat your slaves the way the bible says you should? have you ever worked a job on a Sunday? if so, you're violating the strict tenants of the book you defend....how do you reconcile those inconsistencies? how do you reconcile the inconsistencies of the bible itself? Do you adhere to the belief that only acceptance of jesus as your savior will get you a pass into heaven? if so, how do you reconcile the whole Hitler analogy I presented earlier? why did god create diseases, then give us antibodies to fight said diseases? why were the Gnostic Gospels excluded from the bible? Why were Thomas's gospels and gospel of Nicodemus excluded from the bible?

The very short 'summary' answer to the 'earth is 6,000 yrs old' point is that the Bible does not give an age for the earth.

The Old Testament 'law' criticisms which you've raised are just not valid, Felix.
As I discussed earlier in this thread, Christ is the new and final Covenant God has made with man, and man is no longer bound by the laws of the Old Testament.

I will reply to your 'Hitler' question and other points when I have the time.

Posted: **Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:16 am**

poptart wrote:..man is no longer bound by the laws of the Old Testament.

NO WAY!

really?

Shweet!

T1B

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