T1B

Dinsdale wrote:

Van wrote:As for whether or not Sambo is considered a type of judo, well, argue with Sambo's founders, not me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(martial_art)

Why don't you quote where that article says Sambo is a "form of Judo"? I'll leave the light on for you.

Okay...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(martial_art)

"Sambo has its roots in Chinese Shuaijiao, Japanese judo and traditional folk styles of wrestling such as Armenian Koch, Georgian Chidaoba, Moldovan Trîntǎ, Uzbek Kurash, Mongolian Khapsagay and Azerbaijani Gulesh."

"The founders of Sambo were Vasili Oshchepkov (who died during the political purges of 1937 for refusing to deny his education in judo under its founder Kano Jigoro) and Viktor Spiridonov."

"Sport Sambo (Russian: Борьбa Самбо,Bor'ba Sambo) is stylistically similar to amateur wrestling or judo. The competition is similar to judo, but with some differences in rules, protocol, and uniform.

"Competition in Combat Sambo resembles older forms of judo and modern mixed martial arts, including extensive forms of striking and grappling."

"The founders of Sambo deliberately sifted through all of the world's martial arts available to them to augment their military's hand-to-hand combat system. One of these men, Vasili Oschepkov, taught judo and karate to elite Red Army forces at the Central Red Army House. He had earned his nidan (second degree black belt out of then five) from judo's founder, Kano Jigoro, and he was one of the first foreigners who learned Judo in Japan and he used some of Kano's philosophy in formulating the early development of the new Soviet art."

"Sambo's early development stemmed from the independent efforts of Oschepkov and another Russian, Victor Spiridonov, to integrate the techniques of judo into native wrestling styles."

Sure sounds to me like they're saying it's an offshoot of judo. You want to play your silly semantics games, since that's all you've got, be my guest.

Just take it up with those guys, not me. I'm sure they'd be as equally unimpressed with your lame attempt at a face saving semantics argument as I am.

Van, save it for someone else. Try as you may... I've played Judo, bro. It was kinda my deal for a while (seems like a different lifetime, though). I've sat in and caught the Sambo basics.

So what?

You've never played pro or college football or basketball and still you speak to those subjects as if your expert opinion makes you the last word on those subjects.

You do the same with, well, a thousand other subjects.

Big deal. You're not an expert at martial arts. At best you're a hobbyist. You're also a hobbyist at best in a thousand other things to which you claim (or you claim for your friends) expert knowledge.

Newsflash, sport: Nobody here has ever played NBA basketball or NFL football so nobody here is any more of an "expert" on these things than anybody else here. Doesn't stop any of us from being able to read about and watch these sports and then give informed opinions.

Point being, no, you're not an expert on martial arts and your opinions only matter when they're backed by facts. When the facts don't support your loud bleatings then it doesn't matter how many times you've set foot in a dojo, your loud bleatings still don't matter.

When you wish to argue with people who merely pass along info gleaned through whatever sources, take it up with those other sources.

Telling us what your buddies say and do means nothing. We don't know them. We don't know that they even said what you say they said. Just because they said something doesn't necessarily make it correct anyway.

It's all a moot point, if YOUR point is wrong.

The bottom line is Fedor would destroy Randy Couture, every time. That is where we started here, with your stupid and unfounded contention that a guy like Fedor ducked Couture. Also, according to Wiki at least, sambo is an offshoot of; it has its roots in; it incorporates elements of; ie, it's a "form of" judo.

Take your quibbling semantics and blow me.

At no point here did I ever say Fedor wasn't the best heavyweight out there... he is.

But he ain't fought anybody in a looooong time. Ergo, he's been "ducking opponents."

No.

The correct fact based summation would be, "Ergo, he's beaten every UFC heavyweight out there who's worth his time."

Who hasn't he faced?

Couture? Liddell?

BFD.

He's beaten recent UFC recent heavyweight champs. Destroyed them. It's not his fault the UFC has no one else to offer him.

Beating Sylvia and Arlofski while also competing in multiple combat sambo tournaments is hardly "ducking" anybody.

So, unless you can name someone he's ducked and unless you can also provide any evidence that Fedor ducked the guy then STFU about this. Sure as hell don't even throw out Couture's name as someone Fedor "ducked."

That's a flat out joke and you couldn't even begin to prove it anyway.

Can't say I blame him for not wanting to get involved with I'm Bigger Than The Sport White, but he's been ducking fights, regardless of his motivation for doing so.

Ducking Dana White is not the same thing as ducking Randy Couture, or any fighter. One is a contract issue, the other is a heart issue.

Besides, you can't name a single fight he's ducked. All you can do is mention a useless name or two of people he hasn't fought. That doesn't prove he ducked them, for it's entirely possible that Fedor isn't the only reason any number of fights might not've occured.

Maybe they ducked Fedor.

You don't know why certain fights didn't come off. You're merely speculating. The basis of your speculations though is just stupid: that Fedor would duck UFC cans.

What we know is what Fedor and his management team have stated. We also know the list of fighters defeated by Fedor. Nobody missing from that list is worth a watery turd, at least not among any list of UFC heavyweights.

He's one of those guys who watches a UFC, and says "That guy sucks!!! He soooooo had an armbar right there!!!!" Of course, if anyone in the room with him actually knew anything, they'd tell him "Uhm, actually, his shrimp was very weak, and he had no hip positioning to have any business trying to sink one there, and it was very wise to get his hips back under him"... because the armchair fighters are usually pretty good for a laugh.

First off, you've never watched a fight with me. You haven't a clue as to what I would say, in real life.

Moreover, Dins, when it comes to critiquing someone like a Fedor you too are nothing more than an armchair fighter. You have as much credibility talking about Fedor and world level combat sambo wrestling as you or I do critiquing "Freakshow Excess."

That's just Fedor's actual performances. You also think you can critique the guy's motivations, to the point that your conclusion is that he "ducked" someone like Randy Couture.

Seriously. Sit down and shut the fuck up. You haven't a clue and the sooner you realize your arm chair QB opinion matters no more than anyone else's, the better.

I saw Couture's last fight with Lesner - he got beat up.

Age? yea.....
Sheer physical power? yep.
Could He have beat Lesner in his prime? Probably

Could he beat Fedor now? No

Could he beat Fedor with both in their prime? ?

No.



Couture was losing left and right even during his prime. The guy is 16-9. Not all of his losses occured just recently. He's always been very beatable. He's lost to a lot of people, in a lot of different ways.

Fedor would've just been one more loss for him, albeit in quicker, more definitive fashion.

Like Charles Barkley said, I guess I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

There's nothing in either person's career that would lead any reasonable person to expect otherwise.

Van wrote:

Assuming his next Affliction match is with Josh Barnett -- there is absolutely no one left in the HW division outside of the UFC for him to fight.

Whether or not he beats Josh Barnett there's no heavyweights in the UFC left for him to fight. Who's left? Frank Mir? Big Nog...again?

Brock Lesnar??

Noguiera is not a fight anyone wants to see again. Fedor whooped him twice (almost three times with the NC). He'd wreck Mir as well... easily. You're showing some idiocy by thinking he'd simply walk through Lesnar. Lesnar is an absolute beast but, admittedly, also a MMA neophyte. There's no way he beats Fedor on paper. That said, Lesnar is more than capable of imposing some sort of brute force will on someone. Dude is four fights into his MMA career and is the UFC champ. His one loss to Mir was all about a total lack of jiu-jitsu defense and shit referreing. He was killing Mir up until the ankle lock and had it not been for a retarded point deduction and restart by that shit ref Steve Mazzagatti, Mir was a couple seconds away from a TKO. I certainly wouldn't bet a dime on Lesnar against Fedor but I wouldn't dismiss his chances and skill either. No HW possesses Lesnar size, speed and strength. He's a nightmare for anyone.

Van wrote: Once Fedor beats Barnett we all know who the media will eventually be clamoring for as Fedor's next big test: Anderson Silva. That's a lose-lose fight for Fedor. Either he loses the fight or he gets no credit for beating a smaller man.

Unless Arlofski turns pro full time as a boxer the rematch with Fedor will likely be coming soon. Maybe If Randleman can keep his shit together there might be some clamoring for a Randleman-Fedor rematch.

This is a heavyweight division problem, not a Fedor/UFC problem. This is why Fedor will never agree to sign away his rights to fight outside the UFC. Among other things Fedor will never agree to sign away his rights to compete in sambo world championships. Fedor will never agree to sign away his right to fight in Japan.

WHAT???

Anderson Silva is never, ever going to fight Fedor. No one is clamoring for that fight because it's an impossible pipe dream under the unified rules. There's a two weight class disparity there. Silva wouldn't last a minute with Fedor. Everyone knows that.

Randleman??? On what planet does anyone think Randleman deserves a rematch or would watch it? Randleman is 3-7 in his last 10 fights. His three wins are against two no-names and a freak KO of Cro Cop (which Cro Cop easily avenged). Otherwise, he's been an inanimate grappling dummy or punching bag. He's also a roid freak who basically couldn't pass a drug test in North America if his life depended on it.

Van wrote:
Why should he? There are no heavyweights in the UFC to challenge him. The only money that will be made from a Fedor/UFC heavyweight opponent match up will be made because Fedor is on the card. Fedor carries that box office draw wherever he goes. He doesn't need the UFC to receive a huge paycheck and he certainly can't rely on the UFC to provide him with quality opponents. The best they can offer now in terms of a marketable fighter is Brock Lesnar and we all know that if and when Fedor destroys Lesnar everyone will just denigrate Fedor for beating an all hype-no game WWE wrestler.

You're a 1000% wrong on this. Fedor carries nothing here. Fedor has nearly zero marketability in North America. No one (outside of the hardcore MMA fans) knows who Fedor is. He doesn't sell PPV's here. Pure and simple. No one sells PPV's besides the UFC. Pride never sold more than 50,000 PPV's here and Affliction couldn't dent 100,000 besides carrying 6 of the top 10 HW's. They may crack 100,000 with the last event and that's only because Arlovski was on the card since he has some marketablity and name recognition because he's a former UFC champ. It has almost nothing to do with Fedor. For the record, Arlovski was picking Fedor apart before he got fancy with that stupid flying knee attempt. Granted, it was three minute into round one but I would have liked to have seen how it would've played out if Arlovski hadn't have been so stupid. I think Fedor would have still caught him but Arlovski was sure making it interesting.

I almost agree with you that Fedor doesn't need the UFC for huge paychecks. "Almost" because the Japanese MMA market has shriveled up to nothing. The ratings for what is now their premier MMA organization, DREAM, are absolutely horrible. MMA is "this" close to losing any and all TV broadcasts in Japan. They don't do PPV in Japan. Fedor knows that his future marketability lies in the USA. The UFC, for better or for worse, is the only MMA org that matters in the USA. It is the only org that is financially viable. The UFC is an absolute money juggernaut. Fedor and the UFC will eventually come to terms and I guarantee you that the UFC fares better in the negotiations than Fedor does.

Fu, Fedor just recently fought Matt Lindland. If TPTB can create a Lindland-Fedor match up you can't tell me it's impossible that a Silva-Fedor match up isn't also possible.

If the money's right any match up is possible in the fight game.

I don't want it and I'm not predicting it'll happen but Silva-Fedor is the fight most people are starting to talk about now on the MMA boards. It's gaining steam. Fedor-Barnett and Fedor-Lesnar are considered givens and they'll certainly happen first but most people assume those fights and the results of those fights are foregone conclusions. Meanwhile Silva and Fedor are the two people most debated as being the pound for pound best and Silva supposedly walks around at around 205 lbs. That's a weight he supposedly can fight at without a problem. Fedor fights at around 230 lbs.

We've certainly seen many fights with larger weight disparities than that, including the Fedor-Lindland fight.

Fedor will not sign with UFC, not unless he receives very specific concessions from Dana that Dana hasn't been willing to give to anyone else. If Dana doesn't allow Fedor to also fight outside of UFC, including sambo tournaments and anything else of that sort Fedor wants to do...no dice.

Fedor doesn't need Dana's money. If he never fights again he's already set for life. He doesn't need to be huge in America, even though the paychecks he received for his two recent fights in America were undoubtedly fine and dandy by his reckoning. He doesn't need to care whether Affliction or UFC do huge gates and PPVs. He's not the Tommy Lasorda of MMA. He's not some self appointed ambassador of the sport.

He is however probably the biggest name in the sport now, worldwide. Both here and abroad he's getting paid. He doesn't need Dana or the UFC, at all.

Bottom line, he's not giving up his career freedom to Dana, especially when Dana has nothing more than Brock Lesnar to offer him.

As for Lesnar, you said it yourself. He's an MMA neophyte. There's no way he beats Fedor on paper. (Funny how when you say it's valid but when I say it I'm an idiot. Exactly what does "There's no way he beats him on paper" mean, other than complete agreement with I'm saying?) Yeah, Lesnar is big and strong but four or five fights worth of MMA experience against much less daunting opponents than Fedor isn't going to mean squat when he's faced with Fedor's experience, talent and technical abilities.

Fedor will submit him very quickly or he'll ground and pound him into an early stoppage, take your pick. Lesnar can 'roid around and look fierce all the UFC wants but huge biceps and a thirty pound weight advantage aren't going to beat Fedor in an MMA fight.

So, again, beyond Lesnar, what's Dana got to offer Fedor?

The Fedor vs Lindland fight took place in St. Petersburg, Russia and not within the confines of the unified rules that mandates weight classes. I will tell you that a Fedor vs Silva fight is impossible under any org that uses the unified rules. Sure, they could go fight Philo Beddoe style somewhere but that's not gonna happen since the UFC has Silva all locked up for another six fights. Silva cannot make the minimum HW weight of 225 and Fedor couldn't drop to the maximum LHW weight of 205. Therefore, neither would be granted a license to fight in the other's weight class. Silva has fought once at 205 in the UFC and may again. That said, he'd have a very difficult time with the bigger LHW's in the UFC like Rampage, Forrest & Rashad. Silva walks around at 200 or so. Those guys walk around at 225 or 230 and would outweigh him by at least 15 pounds on fight day. And those are just big LHW's, not a legit HW like Fedor. Not gonna happen. No way. No how.

The UFC offers Fedor a lot. It offers him the grandest stage in which he can reign supreme. You seem fixated on the UFC not having a stable of worthy opponents for Fedor. What org currently does? The UFC has the best young rising talent at HW (Lesnar, Kongo, Gonzaga, Carwin, Velasquez, Dos Santos, etc.) and have the clout to hook other free agents (most notably Alistair Overeem who has become an absolute beast). None of them are beating Fedor anytime soon but what about two years from now? Who would have thought Rashad would have steamrolled his way through the LHW ranks like he has? You just don't know what the future brings.

Rack Fu wrote:The Fedor vs Lindland fight took place in St. Petersburg, Russia and not within the confines of the unified rules that mandates weight classes. I will tell you that a Fedor vs Silva fight is impossible under any org that uses the unified rules.

Great. So they work it out in such a way that it's again not under unified rules, same as they did with the Lindland fight.

Let 'em fight in St Petersburg again, or in Rio. Let 'em fight in Sun City. Let Dana watch it on tv, along with the rest of us. The average fight fan couldn't care less and probably neither could Fedor or Silva.

The point is whether the fight could be made to happen, and it certainly could. Nobody but the organizing bodies themselves really care who the organizing bodies are for any given fight.

Sure, they could go fight Philo Beddoe style somewhere but that's not gonna happen since the UFC has Silva all locked up for another six fights.

Fighter/promotor contracts were made to be bought out, dissolved, litigated, re-negotiated under the table in back rooms and otherwise creatively shat upon.

If the fight world gets to the point that Fedor-Silva is unavoidable (and I'm not saying it is now, or that it ever will be; I'm just talking hypothetically) then Fedor-Silva will happen.

Silva cannot make the minimum HW weight of 225 and Fedor couldn't drop to the maximum LHW weight of 205.

Agreed. Or, at the very least, Silva would have to take up residence in Kansas City for awhile and/or Fedor would have to begin training under your GF's Body Image guru.

:)

Therefore, neither would be granted a license to fight in the other's weight class. Silva has fought once at 205 in the UFC and may again. That said, he'd have a very difficult time with the bigger LHW's in the UFC like Rampage, Forrest & Rashad. Silva walks around at 200 or so. Those guys walk around at 225 or 230 and would outweigh him by at least 15 pounds on fight day. And those are just big LHW's, not a legit HW like Fedor. Not gonna happen. No way. No how.

Agreed. Not under the auspices of the UFC.

Fortunately though Fedor doesn't work for the UFC and fortunately there are still fights being made beyond the reach of the UFC's tentacles.

Silva's people quietly meet with Dana over some nice baklava and strippers. Silva's people offer Dana a one fight buy out stip to his UFC contract. Maybe Silva's people offer Dana a portion of Silva's cut, which Silva is happy to offer after Fedor granted him a portion of his cut.

Whatever. However.

Dana and Silva's people come to an agreement and off they go together to party, skanks in tow.

Fight's on.

The UFC offers Fedor a lot. It offers him the grandest stage in which he can reign supreme.

If the organizing body doesn't offer good heavyweight challengers then the stages don't matter. The UFC offers only one slightly intriguing heavyweight challenger. Just one. Once Lesnar is beaten again by someone else or once Fedor taps Lesnar out in the first round then the UFC offers nothing more for Fedor.

Here's the deal...

I think we all can agree that there currently exists a dearth of legitimate heavyweight MMA challengers for Fedor to fight. So, lacking such challengers, what is Fedor to do?

He can sign on with UFC and be relegated to fighting a series of neophytes and over the hill never weres.

That's one option.

His other option, and the option he continues to insist on taking, is the option that allows him to fill dead time between MMA fights with his beloved combat sambo world championship tournaments.

The UFC option doesn't afford him this opportunity to keep challenging himself while also staying busy.

Here's the other issue...

What if Lesnar gets blown up by some UFC guy? What then? There'd be nothing left in the heavyweight division in UFC. The only options remaining then for Fedor in the UFC would be neophytes, retreads he's already beaten or retreads everybody he's already beaten have already beaten.

Why on earth would a happily independent free agent like Fedor sign away his life for that?

You seem fixated on the UFC not having a stable of worthy opponents for Fedor.

And rightfully so.

What org currently does?

None?

The difference is that as long as Fedor remains a free agent he'll be able to pick and choose. He won't be forced to fight cans he needn't fight. He'll be free to take only those fights he considers the most interesting/rewarding/lucrative/challenging.

The UFC has the best young rising talent at HW (Lesnar, Kongo, Gonzaga, Carwin, Velasquez, Dos Santos, etc.) and have the clout to hook other free agents (most notably Alistair Overeem who has become an absolute beast). None of them are beating Fedor anytime soon but what about two years from now?

Two years from now who knows where any of those guys will be? Who knows where Dana White and the UFC will be?

It's still a fledgling organization and who among us would be completely shocked if two years from now Dana White is sitting either in County alongside Joe Francis, or at the bottom of Santa Monica Bay.

Those guys you mentioned? Two years ago they weren't all with the UFC. Two years from now they may again not be with the UFC.

None of it matters anyway. Dana's a business man. If there's a way for Dana to make a buck by releasing UFC fighters to fight the occasional bout outside of the UFC then he'll do it. If there's a buck to be made by allowing Fedor the opportunity to fight in the UFC while still giving Fedor the freedom he demands then he'll do it.

Eventually he'll do it, if it makes financial sense to do it.

In the meantime it'll never make any sense to Fedor to sign his career away to Dana White.

Who would have thought Rashad would have steamrolled his way through the LHW ranks like he has? You just don't know what the future brings.

Exactly, so why lock yourself up if you don't have to?

Fedor doesn't have to, so he won't.

Besides, along those same lines, who's to say that Japan or Europe won't produce (to Fedor's benefit) a new M1 or Pride and a whole new crop of great fighters we don't yet know?

Like you said, you just don't know what the future brings...unless you sign your career freedom away to Dana White. Then you definitely know.

Van wrote:

Rack Fu wrote:What org currently does?

None?

The difference is that as long as Fedor remains a free agent he'll be able to pick and choose. He won't be forced to fight cans he needn't fight. He'll be free to take only those fights he considers the most interesting/rewarding/lucrative/challenging.

This is where you just don't get it. After Barnett (and a possible rematch with Arlovski), Fedor will have completely run out of fighters to pick and choose from as a free agent because the rest of the intriguing matchups are in the UFC. Take whatever high and mighty stance you'd like - the fights are in the Octagon. He will be forced to to fight cans, much as he has done the last three years. Look at his resume between August 2005 to July 2008 (post-Cro Cop and pre-Tim Sylvia):

Zuluzinho - a 450 pound freak show with zero MMA skill that Fedor submitted in 26 seconds. The fucking guy got submitted by Butterbean for christ sakes. He sucks and had no right to ever be in a ring with Fedor.

Mark Coleman - a 900 year old roid freak who was WAY past his prime and had no right being in the same ring with Fedor as Fedor plowed through Coleman with ease two years prior.

Mark Hunt - In a kickboxing match, Hunt could potentially beat Fedor. In a MMA fight? No chance. Although, Hunt lasted much longer than most anticipated. I'll give him that.

Matt Lindland - Lindland fights at 185 lbs. Enough said about that match.

Hong Man Choi - See Zuluzinho but only taller and not as fat. It was basically Fedor fighting Shaq.

Affliction has given him two worthy opponents and will give him a third in Barnett. Please tell me who Fedor fights after Barnett. If he's not in the UFC, it'll be more freak show mismatches in Japan.

What's this minimum weight thing? Silva might not be able to get up to 2 and a quatah, but, is he required to? I thought there is only a weight limit. I mean couldn't wags get in there with a heavyweight, if he was dumb enough.

If one is badass enough to step to somebody a few steps up, then let him. Silva is pretty damn badass. I don't think he'd beat fedor, but, I think it'd be a fight plenty of folks would cough up some jack to watch.

Fu, this is where you just don't get: Even if Fedor is in the UFC all he has to look forward to are freak show mismatches.

What is nine hundred year old, 'roided out Ken Shamrock? What is Methuselah Couture? What is Tim Silvia?

Lesnar is an HGH loaded WWE guy who despite having only a few MMA fights, one of which was a loss to an average fighter, is already the heavyweight champion of UFC. If Kimbo fucking Slice had even an ounce of MMA ability Dana would snatch him up and he'd already be in line for the UFC title.

Brock Lesnar. This guy...



...is the UFC's heavyweight shining light.

Again, that's the UFC's "heavyweight world champion." He's 3-1.

Oh, and Frank Mir, who beat Lesnar already.

Compared to a Fedor there is nothing there in the UFC. Had Fedor been in the UFC during the years 2005 through 2008 who would he have faced? Couture, Big Nog, Arlofski, CroCop and Sylvia.

Yeah, big threats there. Fedor has already beaten every one of those guys; Couture having been too busy losing to too many other people to ever get his chance to get destroyed by Fedor.

There's just nothing there for Fedor. If and when he ever faces Lesnar or Mir he'll blow through either guy any way he wants to, and then what?

At least in combat sambo he faces legitimate challengers. He should give that up, just for the opportunity to destroy Frank Mir and a circus freaK?

There's just nothing there in UFC worth giving up his career freedom.

Here's an idea.

Go to africa and round up a bunch of pygmies. Bring them back to the states and get them into the dojo or whatever the fukk you call the place where you learn sambo. Have them train for a year or so.

Then you hold a little black sambo tourney.

It would get my 49.95 on PPV, just on the name.

smackaholic wrote:What's this minimum weight thing? Silva might not be able to get up to 2 and a quatah, but, is he required to? I thought there is only a weight limit. I mean couldn't wags get in there with a heavyweight, if he was dumb enough.

No, the unified rules don't allow it nor would athletic commissions sanction such a fight.

Sorry Dins, but yer all wet on this one. Tyson was indeed the worst ever to have been considered a bad ass at all. His DonKing nightmare career was basically a weird assembly of all of the stereotypical images of a King Kong Negro assaulting a WWF-style chorus line of tomato cans, bums, and leaners (those Michael Spinks type morons oblivious to Darwin just wade in...forget it) who comprised his claim to being Heavyweight Champion. Well, c'mon, you're not a moron. You know perfectly well that every legitimate heavyweight that Tyson fought beat the shit out of him--from Buster Douglass to Lennox Lewis they just crushed him into total unconsciousness. What the fuck are you even talking about?