Don't take my word for it. Go to any ND homerboard, and ask the posters there if what happened in 1909 and 1924 isn't relevant to their outlook on the Big Ten.Van wrote:Jesus, Terry, come off it. Who gives a fuck about 1909 and 1924?? Stop using lame arguments like this. It really makes you look desperate to avoid reality.
As for avoiding reality, I'm not the one suggesting we blow up the whole system, now am I?
If you want to know what happened in 1999, it went down basically like this:1999 is relevant, and that's when ND pulled an ND. You can bet your ass the Big 10 didn't reject ND in 1999 at all, much less because they're Catholic.
Delany: We want you to join the Big Ten. You should be honored that we've allowed you to kiss our ring. As an added perk, you'll get annual matchups with such juggernauts as Minnesota and Wisconsin, but unfortunately, we won't be able to let you play Penn State, Ohio State or Purdue every year. And you can get rid of that TV contract, you don't need it any way. Assume the position, and on my command, say "Thank you, sir. May I have another?"
ND: Thanks, but no thanks. We're not interested.
No, my point was that ND has built its fanbase on the strength of being a Catholic school with a national reputation, not on the basis of being located near (as opposed to in) South Bend, Indiana.So what? The point was your lame point about the need to retain the Catholic connection. ND doesn't need to be independent to retain their Catholic reputation around the country.College football has become an increasingly regionalized game over the past twenty years or so, and that's directly attributable, at least in part, to the decline of the independents. ND has been one of the few schools, even arguably the only one, to buck that trend.
Not to go IKYABWAI, but actually, you're the one being stupid here. ND is a national Catholic school that happens to be in the midwest, not a midwestern school that happens to be a national Catholic school. There is a difference between the two.:rolleye handjob, again:Joining the Big Ten, by contrast, would pigeonhole us as a midwestern team. Even if there were no other arguments against joining the Big Ten, that alone would be enough.
That's just stupid. ND is already pigeonholed as a midwestern team, because they are a midwestern team. Everybody knows it, including their nationally scattered alumni, every recruit they ever attempt to sign and every executive at NBC.
I'm pretty sure ND never would have gotten a deal with NBC in the first place if they drew ratings only in the midwest. As a matter of fact, there was a Harris poll conducted in 2001 about favorite college football teams. ND polled more favorably in both the east and the west than in the midwest (second in both the east and the west, fourth in the midwest), and perhaps even more surprising, nearly as favorable in the south (sixth) as in the midwest. ND was the only school that ranked in the Top 10 in every region of the country. That is what I mean by a national fanbase, and it's something ND would lose, maybe not immediately, but definitely over time, and something they could never regain, if they were to join the Big Ten.
You sure are hung up on San Diego State. That was a one-off, only because we owed San Diego State a favor (and yes, it's an indictment of Kevin White, the would-be architect of ND's move into a conference, that we now owe favors to the San Diego States and the Nevadas of the college football world, but that's a topic for another thread).Yeah, all your scheduling arguments hold water. Really, they do. They're very compelling, in the face of all these scintillating, tradition laden match ups you've been scheduling as an independent.Under the alignment favored by both Michigan and Ohio State (which, btw, goes against the way you think it should be, as I pointed out in another thread), ND gets an annual matchup with both Minnesota and Wisconsin. Wisconsin hasn't played ND in my lifetime. Minnesota hasn't played ND in my mother's lifetime. And there's little or no evidence to suggest that ND's fanbase would embrace either of these schools as a natural rival.
By contrast, let's look at some of the schools in the other division, shall we?
Purdue: Continuous series since 1946.
Penn State: Only northeastern school in the Big Ten, so they'd take on significant importance for ND if ND were to join the Big Ten. Not to mention that a ND-Penn State rivalry would provide a significant counterweight to Michigan-Ohio State in the Big Ten (although that's certainly reason enough for both Michigan and Ohio State not to support the development of such a rivalry).
Ohio State: A traditional power located in a geographically contiguous state. The fact that these two teams have met only five times all-time, and only twice prior to 1995, only adds to the intrigue.
Indiana: An in-state rival, once a frequent opponent.
Hell, you could even throw Illinois into the mix. After all, both schools have Chicago as more or less the center of gravity of their fanbase.
So, with all of that to choose from, we instead get annual matchups with Minnesota and Wisconsin? Thanks, but no thanks.
Part of the problem with the Big Ten is that it ain't exactly the most egalitarian place around. There's Michigan and Ohio State, and then there's everyone else. And everyone else is expected to know their place.
Problem is, ND ain't Minnesota, ain't Northwestern, ain't Illinois, hell, ND ain't even Iowa. So what have Michigan and Ohio State done that gives them the right to treat ND as if they are? Why should ND assume the position?
San Diego St is way more pleasing than Illinois, to the Traditionalists. Your mom was a huge fan of that lore laden ND-SDSU rivalry. It was almost as special to her as the epic ND-N. Carolina rivalry. Wisconsin? They don't hold a candle to the next group of far-flung cupcakes you schedule...all to appease the ND Traditionalists, of course.
Every school plays scrubs from time to time, and ND certainly is no exception. In ND's case, the difference is that even when ND plays a scrub, the scrub is always a FBS level program. I'm certainly not pissed at SDSU for wanting to play ND. As for White, I'm more pissed off at him for owing SDSU a favor than I am at him for scheduling them, per se. Certainly I'm not so pissed about playing SDSU that I'm about to demand we join a conference, as long as it's not on an annual basis.
North Carolina? A home-and-home that time, but yet another one you could blame on White (the result of his abortive deal with the ACC). But if you want to talk tradition, truth be told, we've actually played more games against North Carolina all-time than we have against Wisconsin, Illinois or Minnesota (or tOSU, for that matter). That one is on the Big Ten, not ND. It seems that Michigan and tOSU tried to initiate a conference-wide boycott of ND back in the 1960's. Before that, it wasn't uncommon for ND to play 5 games per year against Big Ten teams (in the era of the 10-game schedule, btw); afterward, we rarely had more than three.
Iowa: Last played in 1968.
Illinois: Last played in 1968.
Wisconsin: Last played in 1964.
Indiana: Last played in 1958, except for a one-off in 1991.
That's 4/10 of the conference (I'm excluding Penn State, since they weren't a member of the Big Ten back then) that we basically stopped playing, cold turkey, in a ten-year span. Two members of the conference (Minnesota and tOSU) we had played even less frequently than that. The other four continued as the three-game set we were able to retain. At first it was Northwestern, Purdue and Michigan State, with Michigan eventually replacing Northwestern beginning in the late 1970's.
But rather than cherry-pick opponents on ND's schedule, why not look at that portion of the schedule which is a known quantity? There's always going to be some variety to ND's schedule, after all, whether ND joins a conference or remains independent.
So let's look at theconstantson ND's schedule as an independent vs. what we could reasonably expect as a member of the Big Ten.
Current permanent opponents on ND's schedule are:
BC
UConn
Michigan
Michigan State
Navy
Pitt
Purdue
Stanford
USC
At the present time, we're in the process of phasing out BC and phasing in UConn. That looks like it'll take a couple years.
Now, let's look at a presumptive Big Ten schedule.
We'll retain Michigan and Michigan State. Possibly Purdue (depends on whether the Big Ten has an annual interdivisional crossover game, and if so, who ND's opponent will be. For cross-reference purposes, both the ACC and the Meatgrinder have an annual crossover interdivisional game, and the Big XII does not). OOC, I'd assume we'll retain Navy and USC as annuals, with the other two OOC games open (we might play some of our current regulars in these slots, but certainly not on an annual basis).
So . . .
Retain:
Michigan
Michigan State
Navy
USC
Purdue (?)
Add:
Minnesota
Northwestern
Wisconsin
Big XII South Division opponent TBD (?)
Drop:
BC
UConn
Pitt
Stanford
Purdue (?)
Is there anything really to be gained by replacing Pitt with Wisconsin?
By replacing BC and/or UConn with Minnesota?
By replacing Stanford with Northwestern? [obligatory Meatgrinder BSH]At least you don't have to fly to a road game at Northwestern. I hear those newfangled airplane thingies fall out of the sky all the time.[/obligatory Meatgrinder BSH]
There are enugh variables that you can't tell defniitively from one season to the next where the tougher schedule would lie. As far as the certain part of the schedule, though, what the Big Ten is offering is pretty much a wash compared to what we currently have. And deep down, you know that.
