New Auto Standards - Change that will fuck us in the ass

[SoCalTrjn]

Is it just the auto makers that got the bail out that are going to be told what to build? If so, toyota or somebody better make something I can replace my excursion with

[BSmack]

I think this is a case of ....how did Rom Emanuel put it?, i think it was something to the order of ,"we have to take advantage of this bad economy to make change". I paraphrased.

You have to be careful when you invite the government into your back yard as the auto companies have with there desires for bailout, because they might start telling you how to run your company.

Its like 88 said, liberty...were losing it and not enough of us care.

Who is the "we" you speak of? You still have the right to build whatever kind of conveyance will meet your state's standards for road worthiness. Or are you too lazy?

[Derron]

I don't want to have to take you to the woodshed again.

:roll:

Reviled by one and all, even your keyboard recoils in horror when you approach.

You too would recoil in horror seeing Moving Slut coming to the keyboard with his crank in his hand, pounding out a "vapid racist piece of shit " take, blowing a load all over said keyboard and then smoking a cigarette while gloating how he showed those T1B dudes a thing or two.

[Mikey]

Bullshit. The technology for long distance electric vehicle travel already exists.

And how about the electrical grid to handle all those thousands and millions of electrical vehicles you would like to see on the road? Wind? Solar? Excuse me while I laugh in your face.

You morons are pissing up a rope.

And anybody who thinks those vehicles can't generate horsepower hasn't seen a Tesla in action.

Neither have you. They've only built a handful of (very expensive) prototypes. Is Preston Tucker ringing any bells for you?

The "grid", as you put it, already has the capability to handle a large number of electric vehicles without adding generating capacity or new transmission lines. The grid is necessarily sized to handle peak loads, which occur on weekday afternoons during the summer. The vast majority of electric cars will be charged a night when all of that expensive capacity is sitting idle. So basically, adding a bunch of electric cars would actually make the "grid" function more efficiently because starting, stopping and ramping all of those peaking power plants is a lot more inefficient than running them at close to their capacity.

Talk about pissing up a rope....

Oh, and BTW, GM had a functional electric car on the road 12 years ago. I've met people who are still driving them.

http://ev1.org/

[Mikey]

Never in my life have I witnessed such a group of pathetic whiny pussies.

"Mommy mommy that bad Obama man wants to take away my gas guzzler toys. Can he do that mommy, can he?"

The only one left here with any balls is Duhron. And he's quite a man alright...

Pity the poor liberal tard in the tin foil wrap that pulls out in front of my F 350 at the legal speed limit. The F 350 that gets 20 mpg hwy...18 mpg while pulling 14,000 pounds.

Drives a big pickup and wants to smash small cars with it. Yeah, that's pretty fuckin' macho.

Duhron just literally oozes testosterone. In fact I'll bet he gives himself multiple orgasms nightly just smelling his own musk.

[Mikey]

What cars/trucks do you own/drive Mikey?

I got me a muthafuckin' V10 F250 Ford crewcab, doug.



These days it's reserved mostly for hauling stuff and campouts.

My commuter is a Hyundai Sonata. The wife has an Excel.

Why?

Thinking seriously (OK, semi-seriously) about putting a deposit on one of these:

http://www.aptera.com/

[Sirfindafold]

I wouldn't take one as a gift.

[Mikey]

Oh, and BTW, GM had a functional electric car on the road 12 years ago. I've met people who are still driving them.

http://ev1.org/

You should edit the Wikipedia page. It disagrees with you. It says that all EV1's were crushed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

Actually, so does your link. What kind of mileage do you get on an EV1 crushed to a height of 18" these days?

LOL...prolly better aerodynamics than ever.

I was wrong about meeting EV1 drivers. It was the electric RAV4 that I've seen. The fact remains that there have been serviceable electric vehicles on the road since 1996. The main drawbacks were in the battery technology and there have been big improvements since then.

[Mikey]

The "grid", as you put it, already has the capability to handle a large number of electric vehicles without adding generating capacity or new transmission lines. The grid is necessarily sized to handle peak loads, which occur on weekday afternoons during the summer.

No, it doesn't. We have already have rolling blackouts even without these worthless shitboxes.

Stop lying.

Are you really this dumb? What part about nighttime demand is a lot lower than daytime demand don't you understand?

Rolling blackouts occur when peak demand exceeds the system capacity.

[Mikey]

What cars/trucks do you own/drive Mikey?

I got me a muthafuckin' V10 F250 Ford crewcab, doug.



These days it's reserved mostly for hauling stuff and campouts.

My commuter is a Hyundai Sonata. The wife has an Excel.

Why?

Because you are a typical American. How are you going to haul your stuff and camp out in the future, when the V10 F250 Ford crewcab is banned?

Who said that they would be banned?

[Mikey]

Are you really this dumb? What part about nighttime demand is a lot lower than daytime demand don't you understand?

Rolling blackouts occur when peak demand exceeds the system capacity.

And what makes you think there will not be any additional demand during peak hours....you know, when goods are being delivered in your electric shitboxes?

It's a good thing nobody ever gasses up during daytime, right?

They're not charging while they're delivering, idiot.
Oh, you didn't realize that they don't run on long extension cords. Sorry I keep forgetting that you don't even understand the basics.

[Mikey]

I wouldn't take one as a gift.

Well then. That just about cinches the deal. I may head over there this afternoon.

[Mikey]

The main problems are:

Cost - much higher than conventional technologies
Performance - not particularly powerful and thus have limited utility
Reliability - poor in high and low temperature environments
Durability - battery life is limited and thus the vehicles generate substantial dangerous metal/acid wastes

I considered buying a Prius until I drove one. I like the idea of reducing this country's dependence on foreign oil. But forcing a technology that hasn't proven that it can do the job on the public is a bad way to go, in my opinion.

Hitler and his evil minions used the Fischer-Tropsch process to convert coal into liquid fuel when the allies cut off his supplies during WWII. South Africa (Sasol) has been doing it for years, and China is getting into the game. The liquid fuels produced by the process are cleaner than crude oils pumped from the ground. And the United States has about 500 years worth of coal in known deposits. I would much rather see the US develop that technology, which has been proven to work. We can continue to try to develop electric cars and Mr. Fusion machines (Back to the Future reference), but why not go with what works right now?

I never contended that electric vehicles are the answer to all of our problems right now. I was merely pointing out that they do exist and the technology is improving. And that mvscal is completely full of shit when he says that we don't now have the system capacity to charge a large number of them in the configuration that the vast majority would be used in.

Electric cars don't run on free energy. You do have to generate the elctricity to power them. But...the grid capacity is there, no matter how much mvscal blusters and spits. The efficiency of an internal combustion engine is somewhere around 20%. The average efficiency of the US electric grid is about 33%, but modern combined cycle turbine generating plants approach 70% and most of the peaking units coming on line are using the modern technology.

[Diogenes]

You are lying out your ass...

The question is why.

He's a Democrat.

[Mikey]

And that mvscal is completely full of shit when he says that we don't now have the system capacity to charge a large number of them

Define "large number."

Electric cars don't run on free energy. You do have to generate the elctricity to power them. But...the grid capacity is there, no matter how much mvscal blusters and spits.

And where, exactly, is all of this "non-free" energy going to come from?

Pie in the sky? Magic unicorn dust?

Hmmm...take an 18% efficient fossil fuel burning car off the road and replace it with an electric car at 33% efficiency. Redirect the oil that would have gone into making gasoline for the first car to the power plant generating electricity for the second car. You end up with a 15% advantage in available fuel. Actually 33% is a 45% improvement over 18%.

Simple math is obviously beyond you.

[Mikey]

Mikey-

You've got a problem with your math. Petroleum isn't used to generate much electricity. Coal is.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/energy_in_brie ... ricity.cfm

You're right about the current fuel mixture, but there are very few, if any, new coal plants coming online. Most coal plants are old and are "base load" plants. Most of the new plants burn natural gas, which can be made fairly easily from oil. The point is, if you look at the total energy input, replacing a gasoline burning car with an electric car results in a lower net use.

[Mikey]

And for the record, I absolutely hate nuclear energy. I think it is extremely dumb to generate large amounts of extremely dangerous wastes that have half-lives of thousands of years, particularly when there are plenty of other readily available sources of energy (e.g., coal). I would love to see every nation shut down its nuclear plants before something really bad happens again (e.g., Chernobyl).

I also think it is pretty well established that "bio-fuels" don't work. Again, this is something that ought not to be pursued until the science demonstrates that it is viable.

Hydrogen is the best option, if anyone can figure out how to generate it cheaply and distribute it efficiently and safely.

Solar/electrical is also a good candidate for the future, but it isn't there yet. The power generation is too weak and unreliable, and the materials needed to produce it are expensive and will create a dangerous waste stream in the future.

I have the same problem with nuclear energy. The plants themselves may be a lot safer than they were but there is still no viable disposal option.

The problem with hydrogen is that it's not really a "fuel" per se. It's really a medium for energy storage.

Though it's burned in an engine, or converted to electricity electrochemically in a fuel cell, you have to use some other fuel to create it. You can "re-form" it from natural gas, but it's more thermally efficient to burn the natural gas. You can make it from water but you have to get the electricity from somewhere. The only real options that I see for large scale hydrogen production are large solar or wind farms at sea, or nuclear generation.

[Mikey]

BTW...here is the load curve from CAL ISO (the California Independent System Operator) for 8/30/07. The green curve is the available resource and the red is the actual demand for the entire state.

The system peak came at about 4:00 p.m. There is plenty of excess capacity overnight.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

You are lying out your ass...

The question is why.

He's a Democrat.

I have a crazy fucking proposal for you... how 'bout you spend less time bolding your shit posts and more time attributing quotes to the people who actually fucking posted them.

[Mikey]

I have the same problem with nuclear energy. The plants themselves may be a lot safer than they were but there is still no viable disposal option.

How about viable disposal options for ten million dead electric car batteries? They're only what? About a thousand pounds each?

Enlighten me again about how long are they remain radioactive.

[smackaholic]

And for the record, I absolutely hate nuclear energy. I think it is extremely dumb to generate large amounts of extremely dangerous wastes that have half-lives of thousands of years, particularly when there are plenty of other readily available sources of energy (e.g., coal). I would love to see every nation shut down its nuclear plants before something really bad happens again (e.g., Chernobyl).

large amounts of waste? nuke waste is some nasty stuff and I wouldn't want it buried in my back yard, but, last I checked we have vast extremely remote places we can stockpile the shit until we figure out a way to neutralize it, reuse it or, worst case, just fukking sit there for evah. as for chernobyl, this is what happens when you let gubmint design, build and (not) maintain it. We had a few mishaps with the stuff in the very early experimental stages, but, we have pretty much got it fukking nailed for, ohhhh, about 50+ years now. Over that 50 year span, 1 fukking minor accident where a little vapor escaped into the atmosphere and exactly fukking ZERO people got injured. Today a fair number of folks will get themselves kilt on our roads, but, I don't see you faggoty safety ninnies going on about banning auto travel.

I also think it is pretty well established that "bio-fuels" don't work. Again, this is something that ought not to be pursued until the science demonstrates that it is viable.

WVO (waste veggie oil) is a proven technology and it will keep a handful of hippy converted school bus RVs rolling, but, it has no large scale uses.

Hydrogen is the best option, if anyone can figure out how to generate it cheaply and distribute it efficiently and safely.

why, we'll just squeeze it outta water, like we did in high school chem class.

Solar/electrical is also a good candidate for the future, but it isn't there yet. The power generation is too weak and unreliable, and the materials needed to produce it are expensive and will create a dangerous waste stream in the future.

Solar pv cells make sense in local and a few other places. Elsewhere, you'll only find them due to ginormous gubmint subsidies or rich stupid hippies. I believe solar water heaters do make a great deal of sense. Large scale solar heaters for steam production also may be practical.

[smackaholic]

mikey, what's the price tag on that george jetson mobile? I'm guessing it's a bit pricey. I'm also guessing that a shopping cart accidentally rolling into it would total it.

[Mikey]

mikey, what's the price tag on that george jetson mobile? I'm guessing it's a bit pricey. I'm also guessing that a shopping cart accidentally rolling into it would total it.

I think it's in the mid- $20K region. And the body is made from carbon fiber composites so I'm pretty sure that shopping cart would have to hit it pretty hard to cause a lot of damage.

They claim it's pretty safe. Airbags, front impact zone, aluminum side reinforcement in the doors, aluminum and composite monocoque body. A lot more protection than a motorcycle, anyway.

Jay Leno's test drive...

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/

Here's the writeup on Edmunds.com

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Dr ... eId=144286

Road & Track

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp ... le_id=7651

[Mikey]

Diesel-electric hybrids are probably the way to go for the indefinite future.

What are you going to do with all the old batteries?

BTW, the diesel electric hybrid version of the Aptera is expected to get somewhere between 200 to 300 mpg.

[Cuda]

And where, exactly, is all of this "non-free" energy going to come from?

Pie in the sky? Magic unicorn dust?

It'll be the same way they did it in all those Star Trek movies
-sin
The Obamunists

[Jerkovich]

So, what is surprising here?

[Mikey]

So, what is surprising here?

That you would make a post without some off the wall statement showing how really fucking stupid you are?

Edit...I guess the question above pretty much qualfies though.

[Diogenes]

So, what is surprising here?

That you would make a post without some off the wall statement showing how really fucking stupid you are?

That puts him ahead of you in this thread.

[Jerkovich]

So, what is surprising here?

That you would make a post without some off the wall statement showing how really fucking stupid you are?

That puts him ahead of you in this thread.

Again, what is surprising here?

Just a bunch of cunt burgers smashing their heads on a keyboard. :wink:

[Moving Sale]

Hydrogen happens to be the most abundant element in the universe.

STFU you whining sack of crappy DNA. You don't know shit about science.