T1B

Cuda wrote:

Derron wrote:
But then again, some bad ass like yourself might like riding some heavy's wake turbulence and fucking up the sequence at a big time controlled airport...

Jesus, Derron, you really don't get anywhere near controlled airspace, do you?


Don't fool yourself into thinking that even though you "don't practice that level of skils" that you could do it if you had to. If you haven't flown into a controlled airport- or even a busy uncontrolled one- on a regular basis, you're a statistic waiting to happen.

OK CFI..Complete Fucking Idiot...I will make sure I look you up for my next check ride...If I was going to fly in some shit like that NYC area, I might...just might work on it a bit...but I don't...and my one trip in this year was uneventful and without problem...and probably will make another one this weekend...and with out a problem...and I make numerous flights in and out of busy uncontrolled airports..but your the fucking expert here right ?..

Cuda wrote:

Atomic Punk wrote:Cuda, are you seriously calling me out on "p-factor" in relation to flying prop aircraft? .

I wasn't the one who said

P-factor isn't a factor on a PA-28 (for example) unless you are starting the roll on a runway

when that's one place it has no fucking æffect at all. Even Derron is fucking laughing at you not with you.

Let me ask you this... When you start the take off roll in a prop airplane, are you the only pilot that doesn't hold right rudder then ease off as speed builds?

Holding right rudder on the takeoff roll has nothing to fucking do with p-factor. I'll give you a hint why that is: prior to rotation, the airplane is in a level attitude. Maybe the Russian subs (or were they tanks?) you flew were different?

Atomic Punk wrote: Let me ask you this... When you start the take off roll in a prop airplane, are you the only pilot that doesn't hold right rudder then ease off as speed builds?

Depends on whether the right-seater is wearing gandma panties or not.

Cuda, you must not know a fucking thing other than pedo and mental midget are going to chime in.

What level of a pilot are you anyway?

Atomic Punk wrote:What level of a pilot are you anyway?

The kind that wears boxers one would hope. Can you say the same?

Papa Willie wrote:In spite of all that happened, the one thing that really made me fucking sick was the fact that the media (even Fox on this one) was almost praying that this was going to be another 9/11.

Hyperventilate much?

There's plenty to hack the media for, but that comment there is just plain stupid. Any time there's multiple deaths it's considered newsworthy. Any time multiple deaths happen in a tourist-oreinted location it's considered newsworthy. When both circumstances are met in a single incident the media is going to be all over it. Yes, even Faux News (but keep sucking them off, dipshit).

If we need info on scat pictures we'll ask you. Otherwise just stfu instead of insisting on proving your ignorance.

Is a plane crash news?

Yup.

Is it bigger news when it happens right in front of thousands of people?

Yup.

Does it warrant continuous coverage for an entire fukking afternoon, complete with bringing in expert comentary?

No fukking way, but that is what happened. A plane and a helo crashed. Want an expert comentary on what happened? ow about somebody, actually somebodies fukked up and now they're dead.

Now let's get back to important news like who's juicing in baseball or what type of drugs is lindsay lohan on this week.

The 24 hour news stations need something to fill time for 24 hours a day.

If it seems like they're beating a story to death it's because they don't have anything more interesting to go to.
Same reason that tney might spend 45 minutes with the picture of a closed hangar door saying "when the plane arrives you will see the door open and the plane will taxi over to the left side there, where in about 30 minutes you will see them start setting up a red carpet and podium. Let's go down to the hangar floor and see what Judy has to say."

If you don't like watching that shit then change the channel to Real Housewives of New Jersey or whatever else floats your boat.

Atomic Punk wrote:
What level of a pilot are you anyway?

the kind that knows the difference between torque, p-factor, and spiralling slipstream

I also know the difference between boxer shorts and frilly, lacey unmentionables

"If you haven't flown into a controlled airport- or even a busy uncontrolled one- on a regular basis, you're a statistic waiting to happen." --Cuda

Not mention he'd piss off the controllers by asking for progressives or asking the dumbass question of, "Any traffic in the area, please advise."

As for 12 minutes turn-arounds for sightseeing flights, that is not unusual at all. These guys go out in intervals, do a 4 minute leg up to an attraction, a 2 minute turn around the Statue of Liberty or whatever, go 4 minutes back, with a minute each for take off and landing. They are in constant communication with each other company freq and make calls in the blind as to their intentions on the common. Airspeeds, altitudes, and spacing are predetermined in the company ops manual-- which is always more restrictive than the FAA ruleset.

The problem is congestion. Until the Feds decide just how to regulate GA and the helo industry as a whole-- because HEMS is undergoing severe scrutiny as well for an extraordinarily bad year for fatalities --this will continue.

P-factor? That's got to be a fixed wing thing. The only thing that corrolates to on the rotary wing side of the house is when shit starts going bad and your ass grabs a whole bunch of seat cushion between your cheeks. It's just that we give it a name: Pucker Factor.

Rooster wrote: As for 12 minutes turn-arounds for sightseeing flights, that is not unusual at all. These guys go out in intervals, do a 4 minute leg up to an attraction, a 2 minute turn around the Statue of Liberty or whatever, go 4 minutes back, with a minute each for take off and landing. They are in constant communication with each other company freq and make calls in the blind as to their intentions on the common. Airspeeds, altitudes, and spacing are predetermined in the company ops manual-- which is always more restrictive than the FAA ruleset.

So why the mid air then ?

The problem is congestion. Until the Feds decide just how to regulate GA and the helo industry as a whole-- because HEMS is undergoing severe scrutiny as well for an extraordinarily bad year for fatalities --this will continue.

So again..if the helo guys are so damn good and observe your above mentioned rules and protocols...why the mid air ?

Cuda wrote:

Atomic Punk wrote:
What level of a pilot are you anyway?

the kind that knows the difference between torque, p-factor, and spiralling slipstream

Actually, I'll give you that. I forgot about all 3 terms and what the differences were. Oh well.

Atomic Punk wrote: I forgot about all 3 terms and what the differences were.

But you do know the difference between when you're wearing frilly panties vs. gandma panties. Nice going you horrid tranny.

I knew the psychotic midget would chime in. I wasn't going to respond to Cuda because nobody ever admits they are wrong. However, I knew you would give a response just like this you fucking whack job. There is something seriously mentally wrong with you. If only the others that you haven't met could hear you speak. You speak with a pronounced lisp and it's creepy how you continuously repeat the same tardish phrases.

Seriously, I scroll by your posts knowing what 2 or 3 statemnts you WILL make. Why stop to read anything you write? I knew you would take the bait when I responded to Cuda.

I'm not saying you have a mental problem as a smack thing, I'm saying it as you are seriously disturbed.

Atomic Punk wrote: I'm not saying you have a mental problem as a smack thing, I'm saying it as you are seriously disturbed.

And wearing panties on the internet is normal? Gotcha.

Now go fuck yourself you vapid racist trannyhole.

Moving Sale wrote:Now go fuck yourself you vapid racist trannyhole.

So what took you so long to get the obligatory blast off ?

Derron wrote:So what took you so long to get the obligatory blast off ?

No comment about a tranny posting on this board? Duly noted.

Why was there a mid-air then? The simplest of reasons is because two aircraft were occupying the same airspace at once, but that wouldn't get to the heart of what it is you are asking. Ultimately it comes down to pilot(s) error. Primarily, from preliminary reports, it appears that the Piper struck the A-star from behind and below. Due to the inherent capabilities of these two completely different aircraft it is likely the helo driver was going slower than the Piper, a bird which under normal flight would be operating at a higher speed. Needless to say a helicopter can fly in place, although this was not reported to have been occuring.

Regardless, a lack of situational awareness on both pilots' behalf resulted in a mid-air. It matters not one iota if the helo pilot was a god in the sky and was following every rule and every regulation to the T if he wasn't keeping a closer eye out for conflicting traffic. The resulting crash demonstrates that he wasn't be god-like enough to see what ultimately kill him.

This is the part which most non-aviators cannot understand: Being the pilot-in-command leaves you holding the bag under 99.99% of any and every situation. It's not like a fender bender on the ground where a cop comes along and determines culpability based on a set of rules made to fix blame on negligence or incompetance. In flight everything is the pilot's responsibility-- including the responsibility to see that Piper coming up from behind in your blind spot.
/shrugs
The rules are more like the rules which held old time ship captains from 300 years ago than most people realise. The FAA gives us total and complete command of our aircraft, thus anything that goes wrong is the aircraft captain's fault-- to the point of even if he wasn't actually flying the bird, but his co-pilot was at the controls.

If the chopper was flying a tourist loop, I would guess that it is a pretty set route that he follows every fukking day.

Isn't such info passed around to any pilot that might be passing through the area? Seems like it ought to be.

That is one busy chunk of airspace. 3 major airports, countless police/tourist jockey/rich recreational flyer dude buzzing around that area. You'd expect they'd have some sort of daily spread sheet about such stuff as required reading for all pilots within 50 miles or so.

Sounds like the piper jock was basically flying along and chopper dude was climbing directly ahead and away from him in which case, chopper guy would have had a tough time seeing him. I would think the piper captain should have seen him, but maybe not.

What is forward visibility like on that aircraft in level flight. Are you pretty much blind to anything lower?

How fast can that copter climb? Is there a set protocol for choppers climbing in such a situation that says you should rotate as you climb to check your 6 to make sure you don't get run over by a faster craft coming up behind you? Seems like there should be.

Yeah, the routes are going to be standard depending on the package the passenger pays for. However, if someone is willing to dole out the money they can purchase the services of a pilot and aircraft as a chartered flight and go generally wherever they want to go. Trump was working that kind of operation in the NYC/Atlantic City area for high rollers and businessmen who needed to get places in a hurry, but Liberty Helicopters mostly works the tourism gig.

High density traffic in some areas can be listed and explained in NOTAMS, a three part FAA publication which puts out various types of information for pilots. Flight service stations, a governmental flight advisory service might also give you that information if it is clear you are new to the corridors and wanted such details. Barring all that, just listening to the common traffic advisory frequency would alert any pilots operating in those VFR corridors that there was a large volume of flights working in that specific area.

I suspect that when the NTSB comes out with their investigation they'll discover that it just was a lack of situational awareness and attention to detail-- something common enough and easy to get into, especially if you are busy playing tour guide for your brother-in-law or whoever and is riding along with you and is in the city for the first time. Considering how many aircraft use these low level routes, the major surprise for many of you might be that these kind of accidents are extremely rare. When you compare the helicopter EMS accident rate (which is outrageous right now) to the tourism industry, an accident like this one actually comes as a surprise. And equally surprising might be how counterintuitive it may seem that fewer rules and regulations in places like VFR corridors are actually safer than when heavy restrictions are placed on those who use them.

The viz in an A-star or AS350, like the one that was involved in this accident is quite good-- which is the norm in western helicopters. Russian made machines have a different build philosophy behind them and don't incorporate the same structure or window/seat placement as do American and European helicopters. For example: Western helos use tight tolerances on their moving parts-- on the order of 1/30,000th of an inch. A Russian Mil-17, by way of contrast, can have up to 1/2 inch tolerances on parts as important as engines and rotor systems, but they make them bullet-proof. Literally.

So the A-star, originally a French made machine (the earliest model was a tank killer, but you can imagine how much combat those aircraft saw...), is an excellent pilot's machine with much glass and few and small door and window posts. However, from the 5 o'clock to 8 o'clock position-- defined by the nose being 12 o'clock --there is zero visibility due to the airframe and bulkhead obscuring any rearward viz. Downward viz is good, at least when compared to a low winged aircraft like a Piper, especially since helicopters are inherently unstable, so rocking from side to side is a natural state thus giving a pilot nearly 100% viz below him. The rate of climb, however, depends on many different variables like gross weight, relative wind, aircraft and wind speed, aircraft configuration (doors being removed, slings attached, external hard points being used, induced drag, etc etc etc), but generally it can climb fairly quickly-- on the order of 1,000 to 1,500 feet per minute, especially if you cyclic climb up. 4,000 fpm isn't uncommon if the bird is light and it's a B3 model, D2 engine varient. That particular model A-star broke the world record and picked a guy up off the top of Mt. Everest a couple of years ago. My only complaint about the machine is it has a low inertia rotor system and a single low pressure hydraulic system. Otherwise the bird is nails.

As for normal flight operations, every pilot is or should be taught that when climbing "S" turns are standard operating procedure, so as to clear your tail. In confined corridors like NYC's, it may not be feasable to do those due to conflicting traffic, but during the hover out to the helispot and on climb out the pilot would be smart to be checking the airspace around him for other pilots flying in the area.

Flying isn't rocket science, but complacency and lowering of your mental, physical, and emotional guard can be fatal in any given situation.

Rooster wrote:That particular model A-star broke the world record and picked a guy up off the top of Mt. Everest a couple of years ago.

So much for the 'records are made to be broken' saying with that one. Seems to me that it will be awhile before it gets beat.

Wasn't aware that somebody had been plucked off the summit. Was it an emergency or just some lazy fukk that didn't feel like walking down? That fukking pilot had to have some brass balls and a little bit of skill to pull that one off.

Atomic Punk wrote: I forgot about all 3 terms and what the differences were. Oh well.

it's all good- we's still niggaz

Some guy was having breathing problems and feeling pain in his chest, so they radioed for help and this pilot volunteered to give it a try. He stripped the bird of everything, took minimum fuel, launched, and landed near the guy. He crawled onboard and the pilot basically made an engine-on power-off descent running down the slope of the mountains to save fuel. He said all his pitot static instruments froze up near the top, but he could feel what the helicopter was doing, so he pressed on. The guy lived and the other climbers were witnesses to the whole thing.

I can only imagine how slow the blades must have been moving at that altitude. You might nearly see the individual rotor blades at that altitude. Amazing.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/breaking/Vid ... 62997.html

Videos can be sneaky, so it's difficult to drawn concrete conclusions from this, but it does appear that the Piper saw the A-star at the last second and was pulling up and away. It also turns out that Liberty places the pilot on the left side of the aircraft like a fixed wing typically does so that the passengers don't interfere with the collective. That would also pose problems for the helo pilot's ability to see out of the right side if the tourist's heads were in the way.

Finally, there is an issue of right-of-way. I'm not certain who has to yield in this circumstance, but under specific conditions the helo being the more manueverable and on the left could mean he has has to give way to the overtaking faster Piper on the right.

No clue about rules of the road in the sky, but on the water faster overtaking craft generally have to give way to slower ones. I would think the same applies in this case, at least when it comes to the overtaking part.