T1B

Well of course Diamond belongs in the Hall--if Billy Joel is already in...and Madonna! I mean someone has to draw the line as to what's rock 'n roll and what's pop/schmaltz. Is Brittney in the pipeline? Kenny Rogers? And if it's every Vegas legend for himself, you know this guy is going to want in...


after I dyed my hair black, Elvis dyed his hair..I swear!

Dinsdale wrote:RACK Neil -- motherfucker is about Social-Security aged, and chicks STILL follow him around the country throwing their panties at him. If that ain't the epitome of having game, nothing is.

Too bad those panties have become AP sized.

But yea, how can you hate on Neil? He should be in the Hall if only for the fact that he's the only person to have been covered by both Deep Purple and The Monkees.

Deep Purple? C'mon....do tell. :)

Anyways, if we're talking about travesties of great artists being left out...and I mean uber-shredding Monsters...well, let's start and end right here...check this.....out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQasU2Vq ... re=related

nice link, let's turd. vinnie rocks, but, damn, i think he does need to dial it back just a bit in that piece.

He's definitely being aggressive, but...what was Billy Cobham? What the fuck is rock if not what these guys are doing? Don't tell me it's Chuck Berry and a pimped out cadillac and some hidden cameras in the ladies room toilets...and a tribe of bisexual Brit midgets with some perverse satanic attraction (and talent) for the blues...

No...all of the tripped out weirdos and hair band idiots and funkified dead guys and pop schmaltz nightmares who currently stuff the pantheon of Rock 'N Roll...

...all kneel before this curiously robust yet humble and elusive, egoless Irish genius..




He's an acquired taste, often without overt humor or sweet long melodies.

Just a musician?

Okay...so..what is this guy's message?

"First, I'm going to lure some white chicks back to my hotel...then I'm going to get them very high om alcohol, pot, and cocaine! Then I'm going to fuck them as best I can...though due to all the coke I can't really connect to my basic sexual energy..and so I'll get really high and somehow cajole this chick into letting me piss in her mouth, and then take a shit on my face. I'll writhe like a beast, pass out and move on to the next (cash-paying ) gig..."


And this Hall 'O Famer?...what's his message? :twisted:

Aaasamonn...Nassamon...rzzzzzzzzz



Get a clue, coal mine walker... :wink:

Toddowen wrote:I'm numb Virtuosity doesn't impress me anymore.
I want to hear soul expressed vocally. That's what interest me. I want to hear a story. An interesting tale of another time or another way of living. Or a familiar one, too.

Sure, and that's why the Industry produced this guy..



The Trader

On a cold dark winter's evening, in a dark dank federal prison
I met up with the trader, we were both too scared to sleep.
So we took turns a starin' through the bars on the window
Until he started shakin' and then blubberin' like a creep.

He said son I've made a fortune out of stealin' people's money,
Sharin' inside information, and telling big fat lies.
And if you don't mind me sayin', I can see you're just a two-bit,
But for a snort of your last angel dust I'll give you some advice.

And so we started huffing on the makeshift foil burner,
His piggy eyes went glassy and I thought he might pass out.
But then he started talking--and it sounded something Hindi--
And then he belched and moaned something about really having gout.

"You've got to know when to pump 'em, and know when to dump 'em,
Know how to move it like a big revolving door,
But don't talk to your flunky when she's wearin' a fuckin' wire,
There'll be time enough for countin' when the money's all offshore.

Now every trader knows that the secret to gettin' over
Is to lie and cheat and steal and run like a kid in a candy shop.
And then to live just like a pasha, with no heed for the future
Cuz the future's just a perp walk with some bracelets and a cop."

And when he finished blathering, the trader passed out easy,
I rustled through his pockets but he didn't have a smoke.
He lay there til the morning when the brothers came and found him,
And after three or four of them I think he had a stroke.

"You've got to know when to pump 'em, and know when to dump 'em,
Know how to shuffle when the SEC comes nosin' round.
But don't talk to your flunkies when they may be wearin' wires
Cuz the truth will end up chasing you like a big ol' rabid hound!"



And you're partially right..but mostly oblivious. :wink:

Toddowen wrote:I want to hear soul expressed vocally. That's what interest me. I want to hear a story. An interesting tale of another time or another way of living. Or a familiar one, too. Told in a way that opens eyes to something that was plainly standing right in front of me.

That's exactly what I want too. I just prefer it from a guitar, instead of someone auditioning for American Idol.

A great instrumental is everything you just described. A great solo is a great story told.

I was never all that into McLaughlin. He's phenomenal, no doubt. Always has been. He was fiendishly fast and accurate before those things were really even thought about in guitar circles. When he came up, it was all about blues based psychodelia, or early grunge/butt rock. He was so far beyond the game that there really wasn't much that could be done with him.

All that being said, he leaves me a bit flat. I find him to be too mechanical, and often times tuneless. To my ears, he is what Mgo always bitches about, incorrectly, usually, about every guitar player who knows how to play their instrument: "Music isn't math." In McLaughlin's case, I find that to be somewhat true. He doesn't seem to employ any phrasing at all. There are little to no dynamics. His tone is uninspiring. And, like Nick mentioned, he doesn't seem to give two shits about melody.

That, to me, is the biggest sin of any musician.

He seems like he's working at what he's playing. He seems like he's driven by some unseen force to always push it, as if he's in a race he must win.

I don't hear a lyrical sense; a musical flow. I hear Oppenheimer plotting the destruction of the world.

This is definitely not the case with all 'fast guys', or with all fast solos. In and of itself, facility on the instrument is not anathema to passion, soul, creativity of any of the other things which make for memorable music. It's just another tool in the toolbox.

In McLaughlin's case, too often it seems like it's the only tool he's interested in, like Michael Angelo Battio, or any of countless high gain ''shredders." McLaughlin is worlds beyond most shredders, musically, but whenever I hear him I always find myself thinking, 'I'd rather hear Al DiMeola do this.'

He plays with an expressiveness I find lacking in McLaughlin. He uses melody and dynamics. There is more drama and emotional flair to what he does. He's willing to build his solos, rather than constantly beat me over the head with them. And, for all that, he's also faster and even cleaner than McLaughlin.

A good solo is a song within the song. It's not just a recorded session of woodshedding.

LTS TRN 2 wrote:Deep Purple? C'mon....do tell. :)

You never heard of Kentucky Woman?

Point taken, Van, though DiMeola is by far the more sterile speed merchant--a real asshole as well. Any appreciation of McLaughlin begins with Inner Mounting Flame--which just walks away from anything Zepplin or Yes or any of the early shredders were doing. But his playing--his music--with Shakti really demonstrates his being on an entirely different level. And through the years with all the guitar symposiums with DiMeola and Paco DeLucia, sure it's amazing but a bit tough for long stretches of listening.

But here he is in 2007, playing that Godin and sounding just as melodic and mainstream as he pleases. Check out the overall structure of his solos, the architecture is quite impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTtL-sjcKzU

I agree with what you said about Mac, Van, but, I think your boy Vai is the ultimate example of it. I actually like some of Mac's playing. I particularly like it when he's working with paco and al. the example that lts posted does seem like an example of him working his ass off. .....almost as hard as vinnie is in the same clip. vinnie is a monster, but, in that clip he makes buddy rich look like charlie watts. who was the famous big band leader that said it's more important to know which notes not to play? he was right.

smackie, Vai isn't nearly as mechanical and tuneless as McLaughlin. Vai has written some truly melodic, anthemic shit in his day.

I can actually hum along to some of Vai's works. Try humming Mahavishnu.

Nick, that clip was really cool to see. Thanks.

I wonder how dude felt about Bill Murray referring to his old band as the "MahiMahi Orchestra."

Weird, to see him using two string trees. I hate those things. Even one is too many. I always try to get height graduated tuners, just so I can forego those fucking string trees, and he's using two!

He oughtta just go with an LCR Roller Nut, like Beck uses, or a locking nut, like everyone else who intends to use very much tremolo.

Or, hell, even just one of these...



Weirder still, to see McLaughlin actually make all sorts of little mistakes. I loved it, actually. He was really struggling witrh the tremolo, trying to use it for phrasing, the way Beck does. He seemed really uncomfortable with it, especially when he tried to incorporate it into his little slides. His stops and starts saw him clamming here and there, but when he went for the full burn he would be note perfect, as always.

Very compressed tone, with a lot more gain than he usually uses, too. It was nearly a Larry Carlton tone, only more compressed. Almost kinda Santana-ish.

Loved that he slowed down some, and did a little lyrical playing. Wish he would play like that clip, all the time.

As for DiMeola, that guy went two hours without even making a hint of a mistake, when I saw him years ago at the Hollywood Bowl, with Lee Ritenour and B.B. King. Weird grouping, that. B.B. was totally lost, when they all played together for the encore.

Never met DiMeola, so I can neither confirm nor deny that he's an asshole, like you say.

The other guy you need to be including here, when talking about guys like McLaughlin and DiMeola, is Holdsworth. He's the only guy I've ever heard DiMeola give total respect to, among non alternate pickers. He usually refers to those guys as "cheaters," but he gives Holdsworth his due. Also, Holdsworth is the nicest, most pleasant and down to earth guy you'd ever want to meet. Dude is Satriani nice.

I actually had Satriani's guitar for about eighteen months. True story. Someone had swiped a few of his axes from an equipment truck, apparently. I happened to meet some squirrely guy offering a guitar in a case for sale right outside the Guitar Center at closing time. This was when it was still on Mission and 12th. He had tried to sell it to the store but they had said no. So, we're leaving, he offers--is obviously desperate--and I bought it for $50.00. It was the basic Ibanez model he still seems to use--lightweight, super low action, fancy custom paint job. At this time, and for a good while after, we had no idea it was Satriani's--or that it was even a good guitar. I didn't know, of course, that it required a preamp unit between it's standard humbucker-style pickups and the amp. Without this it was tinny and weak. We actually let my friends little daughter use it as a beginner model for a while. So, after eighteen months or so, still not recognizing it, I took it back to Guitar Center and sought to use it as a trade in. They immediately called BG productions, who told us to bring it over and return it personally to Satriani--in return for a replacement, a new U.S.A. Telecaster. He wasn't real friendly or anything, but they gave me the tele! I've never liked his music, he always sounds like he's playing with a drum machine and that whole dive-bombing surf-shredder nonsense is not even music in my book.

They probably thought you stole it in the first place.

Exactly right! Satriani just looked disgusted, grabbed the axe and quickly okayed that it was the one in question. And Bill Grahams' son--running the place at that time--was decidedly cool. No questions were asked as to where I had obtained it, not did I offer an explanation. I was stoked about getting the tele, and I really didn't have any guitar hero admiration for Satriani. I saw him a couple months ago with Sammy Hagar and some other heavy metal retreads on bass and drums disgracing themselves horribly on Conan or whatever. Unbelievably bad.

Unless I'm mistaken, one of those "heavy metal retreads" is Van Halen bassist Michael Anthony.

I listened to some chickenfoot jams in youtube. not bad at all. pretty much what i would imagine VH would be doing today if they'd have stayed with the vanhagar line up. the drummer, wtf's his name from the RHCP gets plenty of shit talked about him by the youtuber commenters, but, i like him. he brings that RHCP funk sound to the group and i think it works.

Van wrote:Unless I'm mistaken, one of those "heavy metal retreads" is Van Halen bassist Michael Anthony.

I think so, but trust me, it blew caravans of dead camels--dreadfully embarrassing. The difference--and meaning--of the entire proposition of rock 'n roll music and its important place in modern society is about the unspoken but ever present spirituality of McLaughlin, which he's always embodied. The comparison with Chuck is not just a joke, but a real indicator of the human compass. Satriani and his burly buddies are just idiotic wastes of time.

Nick, we're talking about a band fronted by Sammy Hagar here. I don't really think Deep Purpose is ever going to be too high on the agenda.

Of course, but...add up the albums and tickets sold by those guys. And begin to understand why America went from the most dynamic and promising nation in history to a bankrupt corporate whoredom of fat fucks and moronic Christers...where Sarah Palin is somehow being discussed in the national media as a leading possible presidential nominee. After considering this carefully, listen to this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQHeu_F ... re=related

Dude, you're railing against Satriani and Hagar, in a musical climate where people like Britney Spears and Rihanna dominate?

That clip of McLaughlin had him back to his usual bizarre tone. It's such a clipped, compressed tone, with no sustain. It sounds...choked, like he's got the Tone knob down too low on his guitar, and no Presence dialed into his amp.

He's different, though, and he sticks to his guns. Have to give him that.

Ah, fuck it, Nick. Time to really have at it...

LTS TRN 2 wrote:Of course, but...add up the albums and tickets sold by those guys. And begin to understand why America went from the most dynamic and promising nation in history to a bankrupt corporate whoredom of fat fucks and moronic Christers...where Sarah Palin is somehow being discussed in the national media as a leading possible presidential nominee. After considering this carefully, listen to this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQHeu_F ... re=related

Wow. America's "decline" is because of Van Halen?

I wouldn't quite put it down to Van Halen. I'd say it's down to Kiss, then MTV.

Tomatoes, tomahtoes. :D

B-smack, Eddie and his army didn't cause it, they reflect it. I'm not suggesting there's no healthy application of straight up sexually charged blues oriented rock music--and this entails quite a bit. But, simply, if you consider who's actually tying into that energy--and who's desperately faking it--you'll see what I'm getting at. Perhaps McLaughlin is too much of a "spiritual seeker" with all his Mahavishnu and so forth. But in his extremity he clearly defines the difference...with say, this Hall Of Famer

Your (American!) essential cultural energy on drugs!

Richard's isn't American LTS. I actually understand what you're saying though and agree .

Thanks for the links to the McLauglin, it was some great stuff.

Do you like Rai ?

BSmack wrote:should be in the Hall if only for the fact that he's the only person to have been covered by both Deep Purple and The Monkees.

And Elvis, and Cliff Richard, and UB40, and Urge Overkill for the Pulp Fiction soundtrack, and Johnny Cash...

and probably others. Those are just the easy ones.

Tom In VA wrote:Richard's isn't American LTS. I actually understand what you're saying though and agree .

Thanks for the links to the McLauglin, it was some great stuff.

Do you like Rai ?

Sorry, but the Holdsworth effort falls way short of the translogical interzone of metabeing awareness that McLaughlin breathes like oxygen. Are you familiar with Giant Steps? The Coltrane piece (harmonic attenuation) upon which the McLaughlin piece ("Voices") is based? How about Bill Frisell, if you're talking about players with no headstocks.

Sure, I like Rai and the similar music of the ages before three minute cookie cutter industry "songs" or whatever is supposed to be music in our Edisonian world. :wink:

LTS TRN 2 wrote:...translogical interzone of metabeing awareness...

Now you're just making shit up.

translogical interzone of metabeing awareness

Fucking HATE it when that happens.

BSmack wrote:

LTS TRN 2 wrote:...translogical interzone of metabeing awareness...

Now you're just making shit up.

Nope, it's real, and music is just one mode of gaining attenuation. But regardless, I rescind my appreciation of the provided Rai music clip. It's too commercial, there's much better stuff from 20 years ago or so. This guy is selling out as hard and fast as he can.

And the wind blew.

Tom In VA wrote:

And the wind blew.

And you learned to love...Zamfir...forever......

Nick wrote:How about Bill Frisell, if you're talking about players with no headstocks.

Though Bill Frisell has played headstock-less guitars, as well as Gibson SGs and whatever the fuck else he was in the mood for, these days he almost exclusively plays modified, MIM Teles through mass produced, right off the shelf, printed circuit board Deluxe Reverbs.

LTS TRN 2 wrote:

BSmack wrote:

LTS TRN 2 wrote:...translogical interzone of metabeing awareness...

Now you're just making shit up.

Nope, it's real, and music is just one mode of gaining attenuation.

I looked up attenuation. Attenuation is the gradual loss in intensity of any kind of flux through a medium. What the fuck does that have to do with translogical interzone of metabeing awareness? Please, give me a definition in English?

Music is an art, not a competition.

There should be a R & R Museum, not a HoF - duh!

Inducting artists into a HoF is a laffably absurd circle-jerk, as are most things within American culture these days.