Madison protests

[smackaholic]

As it turns out, government employees in Wisconsin are undercompensated by 8.2%, when compared to otherwise similar private-sector workers. According to that study, anyway.

"nonpartisan but progressive"

This was a description, self description, I believe, that I found on wiki about EPI.

So, yeah, an impartial observation for sure.

As I read this shit organization's piece, I had to laugh at the comment on educators pay. Unless things in the land of cheese are awfully different from here, it is completely different. Private teachers in Ct make way less than public ones. I am talking about K-12 of course. Some private sector college professors likely do pretty well, but, that has to do with elite schools having to compete for the best professors. This is not the case with the garden variety school teacher.

[BSmack]

Dude, you're all over the place. I think what you're trying to say is that Wisconsin, CA and others are fucked due to a right wing conspiracy. A sad, but predictably flailing response.

I never said the word conspiracy. I'm saying that state revenue is a cyclical thing and that the current "shortfalls" are only shortfalls because, unlike business, a state government is required to show a positive balance sheet every year. Sorry if I'm not impressed by the Republisheeple bleating that the sky is falling.

[Derron]

As it turns out, government employees in Wisconsin are undercompensated by 8.2%, when compared to otherwise similar private-sector workers. According to that study, anyway.

But then you forgot to drop down 2 paragraphs and read this you moron:

When comparisons are made for differences in annual hours worked, the gap remains, albeit at a smaller percentage of 4.8%.

So when you add in the full ride health care and fully paid retirements, that still keeps that 4.8 % gap ? What does the average private worker pay for health insurance for full family medical ? Local public school / state / city employees get a health benefit of at least $ 1,321 per month. And a 6% of wages fully paid ( by the employer) into a retirement fund.

So lets take a base salary of 50K...add in the health benefit of $ 15,860, the retirement contribution of $ 3,000 and you have a total benefit package of $ 68,860.

A private employee has a base salary of 50K. They pay probably a minimum of $ 350 per month out of that for an equal package of health care. Base salary is now down to $ 45,800. So they put 3% ( $ 1,374) into the 401K. $ 44,426 take home, less taxes.

Now who has the greater take home pay at the end of the month ? 8% under paid ?? I don't fucking think so.

of course tens of thousands of public workers are much more affected than the fucking MILLIONS of private employees who got axed.

As a result, tens of thousands of public-sector employees have been laid off and thousands more have been subject to forced furloughs, pay freezes and cuts in benefits.

It is not about the collective bargin rights....it is about the fucking taxpayers not wanting to pay for this shit anymore, and the fact that the tax sucking agencies might not have the money ??

[Derron]

I'm saying that state revenue is a cyclical thing and that the current "shortfalls" are only shortfalls because, unlike business, a state government is required to show a positive balance sheet every year.

Of course in private business if you fail to show a positive balance sheet for very long, you make adjustments in expenses and try to correct the imbalance, if you don't, you go under.

In government, you just keep borrowing until your credit rate goes to shit, deny there is a problem, raise taxes, go to the under paid civil servant and bodies in the street card, and then wonder why you have to reduce expenses ? Such as in reducing labor costs ?

[BSmack]

I'm saying that state revenue is a cyclical thing and that the current "shortfalls" are only shortfalls because, unlike business, a state government is required to show a positive balance sheet every year.

Of course in private business if you fail to show a positive balance sheet for very long, you make adjustments in expenses and try to correct the imbalance, if you don't, you go under.

And very often one of the first things private business does during lean times is to obtain a line of credit that will allow it to operate until it can make a profit again. But a state government is not allowed this luxury.

[Derron]

I'm saying that state revenue is a cyclical thing and that the current "shortfalls" are only shortfalls because, unlike business, a state government is required to show a positive balance sheet every year.

Of course in private business if you fail to show a positive balance sheet for very long, you make adjustments in expenses and try to correct the imbalance, if you don't, you go under.

And very often one of the first things private business does during lean times is to obtain a line of credit that will allow it to operate until it can make a profit again. But a state government is not allowed this luxury.

Yeah right .....financial institutions are not in the habit of handing out credit lines to companies that have a balance sheet and P & L that indicates they are or may be having financial problems. If the credit line is not already in place, or has not been retracted by pussified banks then great, go ahead and borrow with a less than clear outlook. Bad decision there but what the hell..

The bank is probably going to want you to demonstrate some level of cost cutting and margin preservation, and that is likely going to involve cutting employees and employee costs.

So what makes a state or any government body any different ? If your budget is labor heavy and you have to cut costs, then I guess you got to cut labor and labor costs.

[Mikey]

Gosh, there's more to the story than what the new governor initially was saying. What a surprise.

And before any of you get upset with a TPM link, the article is backed up with links to the Capitol Times of Madison and the Wisconsin fiscal bureau.

Wisconsin Gov. Walker Ginned Up Budget Shortfall To Undercut Worker Rights

Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times.

The reality is radically different. .....

Sounds almost AlGoreish.

[LTS TRN 2]

The GOP is shamelessly using the budget deficit to bust the unions. It's not really complicated at all. Hopefully we'll have a Cairo moment and stand down these lying assholes. Same for Ohio.

read this?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/opini ... editorials

[Sirfindafold]

read this?

get fucked.

[Tom In VA]

Well I'm not excusing the Republicans for being opportunists here and using this to "bust unions" completely, we know they're evil.

But why so quick to assume that the DEMS aren't using this as an opportunity to paint - simple fiscal responsibility as - Republicans trying to bust unions and "stick it to the people" ?

Hmmm ? Just curious. Conspiracy abounds man.

[Diego in Seattle]

Well I'm not excusing the Republicans for being opportunists here and using this to "bust unions" completely, we know they're evil.

But why so quick to assume that the DEMS aren't using this as an opportunity to paint - simple fiscal responsibility as - Republicans trying to bust unions and "stick it to the people" ?

Hmmm ? Just curious. Conspiracy abounds man.

Republicans could have not given the dems that opportunity by coming to the table first instead of just shoving this down the workers' throats.

[Tom In VA]

Well I'm not excusing the Republicans for being opportunists here and using this to "bust unions" completely, we know they're evil.

But why so quick to assume that the DEMS aren't using this as an opportunity to paint - simple fiscal responsibility as - Republicans trying to bust unions and "stick it to the people" ?

Hmmm ? Just curious. Conspiracy abounds man.

Republicans could have not given the dems that opportunity by coming to the table first instead of just shoving this down the workers' throats.

Well then that makes sense. Should we stone them or just cane them ? I mean seeing as the Republicans are the ONLY ones that care about "the people".

[LTS TRN 2]

The GOP's legacy since Reagan has been nothing less than an attempt to return to the 19th century model of plutocrats and serfs. They've encouraged and enabled CEOs and executives to enjoy gigantic salaries which are grossly disproportionate to those of the workers--while holding average workers' salaries at the same level sine the seventies. And while Clinton indeed shamelessly capitulated and ushered in the NAFTA catastrophe, it has been the bedrock agenda of the GOP to destroy unions and collective bargaining.

As the article I cite makes clear, the recent efforts of the Wisconsin governor to cut his budget deficit go far beyond mere fiscal concerns. He's clearly seeking the basic GOP goal of union busting--and hopefully he'll get his ass kicked for it.

[LTS TRN 2]

read this?

get fucked.

What's the problem, ya little punk, too many big words in the mean old article? Or does the plain argument entailed just pound sand up the ass of whatever it is you're supporting?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Well I'm not excusing the Republicans for being opportunists here and using this to "bust unions" completely, we know they're evil.

But why so quick to assume that the DEMS aren't using this as an opportunity to paint - simple fiscal responsibility as - Republicans trying to bust unions and "stick it to the people" ?

Hmmm ? Just curious. Conspiracy abounds man.

Don't worry, Tom. It's not like union busting is a foreign concept to Democrats.

[Dr_Phibes]

They've encouraged and enabled CEOs and executives to enjoy gigantic salaries which are grossly disproportionate to those of the workers--while holding average workers' salaries at the same level sine the seventies.

That's not really a Republican thing though, wages have steadily fallen in all the OECD countries since the seventies. They've even been falling in China.

[BSmack]

Take that hit piece and shove it up your ass. Nice job comparing the mean teacher salary to the median income of all workers. You do realize those are two entirely different measures?

[trev]

Why do liberals want unions around? What good are these unions, besides taking dues and putting big bucks towards democrat politicians?

[trev]

100K with 10 plus weeks off a year. Sweet.

[Dr_Phibes]

Why do liberals want unions around? What good are these unions, besides taking dues and putting big bucks towards democrat politicians?

They served a purpose at one time. Labour figured out that their relationship with capital was symbiotic, when the US was firing great guns and exporting - labour could bargain from a position of strength.

It's a pipe dream now, there's a massive pool of people with nothing to do who will undercut each other to put food on their plates. Advantage, capital.

[BSmack]

Is $100,005 in salary and benefits an appropriate average compensation for a person with a masters level education?

Absolutely. You would fucking hang yourself if you made that little. And teachers do something useful.

[LTS TRN 2]

They've encouraged and enabled CEOs and executives to enjoy gigantic salaries which are grossly disproportionate to those of the workers--while holding average workers' salaries at the same level sine the seventies.

That's not really a Republican thing though, wages have steadily fallen in all the OECD countries since the seventies. They've even been falling in China.

Indeed, as a direct result of the "neo-liberal" policies inflicted upon the world economy--starting here. And "neo-liberalism" has been the basis of the GOP since Leo Strauss, Milton Friedman, and of course the lugubrious Alan Greenspan somehow mounted this toxic and utterly catastrophic economic model upon the American system. The "Chicago school" of expertise which cooked up this insanity in fact had no track record of success. But you didn't know that, did you? Amazingly, just like Kissinger--a sociopathic war criminal--it was simply installed as though it had not only credibility but real substance.

The current GOP cut-throat naked assault on the public is coming to a head in Wisconsin, and it will be a great day in this nation's history when the peole rise up and say fuck you to the GOP and its demented agenda.

[Tom In VA]

I'm trying to understand this mindset, then it dawned on me .... The American Way is stealing by force.


Hey, we did it to the Indians, we stole liberty from the blacks and the "huddled masses", propping up a few here and there to give false hope. Then we gave the ones not interested in monetary gain - the Irish - the badges and guns to do what they like to do, fight.

So in essence, stealing from those with resources has been the American way all along so it seems natural to increase taxes on the rich and wealthy and steal more from them. Hey look there's some fertile ground, let's steal it from that tribes. Eminent Domain.

Now we need theft, to save the country.

YES WE CAN.

[LTS TRN 2]

Why is it stealing to tax the rich? Don't you acknowledge that the wealthy in this country pay less tax than the middle class?

[Tom In VA]

Why is it stealing to tax the rich? Don't you acknowledge that the wealthy in this country pay less tax than the middle class?

I'm a little fuzzy on that. I mean if we had a flat tax of 10% say, logically 10% of 100 is less than 10% of a million, so I don't get your statement.

We don't have a flat tax we have a sliding scale, so no, school me man I'm not getting it.

[BSmack]

Is $100,005 in salary and benefits an appropriate average compensation for a person with a masters level education?

Absolutely. You would fucking hang yourself if you made that little. And teachers do something useful.

^^^ Ain't got a fucking clue ^^^

Oh please do illuminate.

[poptart]

At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable,
as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-
disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats.

- P.J. O'Rourke

[smackaholic]

Why is it stealing to tax the rich? Don't you acknowledge that the wealthy in this country pay less tax than the middle class?

I'm a little fuzzy on that. I mean if we had a flat tax of 10% say, logically 10% of 100 is less than 10% of a million, so I don't get your statement.

We don't have a flat tax we have a sliding scale, so no, school me man I'm not getting it.

If you'd have spent a little more time studying and a little less time fighting somebody for a bottle of hooch, you wouldn't need schooling.

[Truman]

Lemme get this straight: Wisconsin is facing a $3,000,000,000.00 (that’s what 3 Billion actually looks like, folks) budget shortfall and the state’s Governor reasonably concludes that the state can chip away at this figure by asking state workers to contribute 12% of their income towards their own well being (healthcare), and 6% of their salary towards their own retirement plan, and all of a sudden Governor Walker is Hosni MuHitler?

:?

Would an opt-out to the Union plan in trade for Collective Bargaining for these benefits make the Thundering Hordes feel better? Would having the right to purchase their own individual private healthcare insurance or fund their own 401K - as many of us on this Board do - ease the tensions in Madison and other states that will soon be addressing similar challenges ?
Lemme know how THAT works out. Gotta feeling those Union bennies are STILL gonna look mighty swoot compared to what we private sector- types pay in Real America.

Of course, the Lib mind-set here will tell you that those benefits should be free to begin with – that it is the obligation of government to house, feed, doctor, and employ its citizenry. That ain’t the way it’s supposed to work here, people.

[BSmack]

Lemme get this straight: Wisconsin is facing a $3,000,000,000.00 (that’s what 3 Billion actually looks like, folks) budget shortfall

Quit making shit up. Wisconsin had a budget SURPLUS before Walker took over.

[Truman]

So Walker's been in office for all of one month, and has already managed to bury Wisky in a $3 billion hole? That's almost Barry-like talent...

[BSmack]

So Walker's been in office for all of one month, and has already managed to bury Wisky in a $3 billion hole? That's almost Barry-like talent...

No, he LYING about the deficit.

[smackaholic]

yeah, that's it. he's lying through his fuggen teef. everybody knows that the rest of the state gubmints are solvent or running nice little surpluses.

[Truman]

So Walker's been in office for all of one month, and has already managed to bury Wisky in a $3 billion hole? That's almost Barry-like talent...

No, he LYING about the deficit.

Ah. The same way Barry and the Fed are lying about climate change, socialized healthcare, and the true rate of unemployment. Gotcha. Be that the case, then Walker is a reprobate.

[Derron]

Take that hit piece and shove it up your ass. Nice job comparing the mean teacher salary to the median income of all workers. You do realize those are two entirely different measures?

Hit piece my fucking ass...a report that is stating fact ?

You can take those numbers and plug them into virtually every district in the country and they will be the same.

Our local district teachers after 7 years make about 108K salary and benefits. The administration wants to spend 500K on a new reading program because the one they started in 2006 is not meeting test standards. 9th graders reading at a 3rd grade level. Grade school principles making 120K per year. overseeing teachers who cannot teach reading.

And how is it that comparing a teachers salary to a median income is wrong ?

Riggghhttt....

[Mace]

You can take those numbers and plug them into virtually every district in the country and they will be the same.

Wrong, derron.

Our local district teachers after 7 years make about 108K salary and benefits. The administration wants to spend 500K on a new reading program because the one they started in 2006 is not meeting test standards. 9th graders reading at a 3rd grade level. Grade school principles making 120K per year. overseeing teachers who cannot teach reading.

My wife has been teaching for 35 years and her salary and benefits are less than half of what you claim that can be "plugged into virtually every district in the country."

[Diego in Seattle]

I have an aunt & uncle in WI that are both longtime teachers. They might make over $100k, but that's combined. That $100k figure must include administrators, as I highly doubt that teachers make that much.

[BSmack]

So Walker's been in office for all of one month, and has already managed to bury Wisky in a $3 billion hole? That's almost Barry-like talent...

No, he LYING about the deficit.

Be that the case, then Walker is a reprobate.

He is. Next?

[LTS TRN 2]

No surprise, the same Koch brothers who are funding the Denial Machine on the Climate Change issue are funding the union-busting efforts in Wisconsin..

The Americans for Prosperity group, a Tea Party group that is a Koch Brothers front, has put up a website and petition called http://www.standwithwalker.com. The website attacks all collective bargaining – not just for public employees’ unions. Americans for Prosperity is also organizing a rally tomorrow in Wisconsin to support Gov. Walker.

Why are the Koch Brothers so interested in Wisconsin? They are a major business player in the state.

This from Think Progress:

Koch owns a coal company subsidiary with facilities in Green Bay, Manitowoc, Ashland and Sheboygan; six timber plants throughout the state; and a large network of pipelines in Wisconsin. While Koch controls much of the infrastructure in the state, they have laid off workers to boost profits. At a time when Koch Industries owners David and Charles Koch awarded themselves an extra $11 billion of income from the company, Koch slashed jobs at their Green Bay plant:

Officials at Georgia-Pacific said the company is laying off 158 workers at its Day Street plant because out-of-date equipment at the facility is being replaced with newer, more-efficient equipment. The company said much of the new, papermaking equipment will be automated. [...] Malach tells FOX 11 that the layoffs are not because of a drop in demand. In fact, Malach said demand is high for the bath tissue and napkins manufactured at the plant.


What's really pathetic is the notion that the Tea Baggers are some sort of actual grass roots movement, when in fact they are created, funded, and given marching orders by the slimeball industrialists like the Koch brothers. Well, fuck them.

[Wolfman]

Tin Foil Ted lives here?