T1B

IndyFrisco wrote:

smackaholic wrote:my guess is that a considerable chunk of folks do it simply because it's a good way to meet decent god fearin' folk. and you know what? there is nothing wrong with it.

There's nothing wrong with it until they come to me and say "Haven't seen ya in church in awhile, Frisco." That's when I want to say "Because I fucking hate going to church and then have to put up with holier-than-thous like you in conversations like this while you go hang out at a bar all the time and then decide to drive home but hey, damn me to hell for not going to church on Sunday to save face and pretend I'm this wonderful Christian because you know, God only watches you on Sundays between 10:30 and 11:30, dumbfuck hypocrite", but I usually laugh it off.

If they're drinking and driving, you should probably tell them just that.

Who knows whose life you might save.

88 wrote: the one hour a week they spend in church.

That's not church.

Sin,
Baptists

Tom,

There's all kinds of hypocrites that say shit to make you feel guilty for not coming to church. I make it about 10 times a year. Got this one douche who used to bag on me for not going more often. He was the choir leader. Turns out he and his wife get a divorce because he was cheating on her. Hell, the biggist hypocrites in the Catholic church are those who run the damn thing. I got all kinds of problems with the "church", but I've already mentioned those.

Someone else said it before in this thread, but you can be spiritual without going to church and going to church does not make you spiritual. 100% my take on it. I have given up on "the church" but not my spirituality. While I would never go as far as pops here in what I do/don't believe, simply because it's between me and God in my mind, I don't mind expressing my disdain for the church any longer. I don't feel God has failed me. I sure as shit feel the church has.

Thanks for the explanation, it wasn't necessary. I wasn't kidding. Drinking and driving is a pretty selfish act. Kind of goes against "the word".

smackaholic wrote:

Mikey wrote:

88 wrote:I appreciate the response, Pop. And I'll give you props for not being the kind of person this thread was originally started about. That person goes to church because his mother/father took him there as a child and he feels obligated to do so now as an adult. That person says he/she is a believer, but really hasn't thought about what it is he/she says he believes in and hasn't considered and resolved the hard questions in his/her heart and mind. You appear to have made a complete leap of faith. I respect that rather than to attempt to persuade me using some improper blend of spiritualism and reason, you seem comfortable relying 100% on spiritualism when you provide responses such as he just "IS" and the scripture provides no answers and you won't speculate. While I personally do not find the scripture or any of your interpretations of it compelling, I respect that at least your faith is genuine. And since it works for you, I'm happy for you.

You mean there's no legitimate reason to "go to church" other than an absolute unshakable faith in whatever, and unless you've resolved all of the "hard questions" you shouldn't be there?

How wonderfully cynical of you. You yourself definitely shouldn't be "going to church", and the fact that you even attend on Easter and Christmas outs you as somewhat of a hypocite. Believe it or not, though, many people find reasons to participate beyond the ones you've identified. Good thing too, or there would be a lot of empty churches and a lot of "faith based initiatives" going unfunded.

mikey goes for the after mass spreads they put out, don'cha, fatboy?

my guess is that a considerable chunk of folks do it simply because it's a good way to meet decent god fearin' folk. and you know what? there is nothing wrong with it.

whatever floats yer spiritual or social boat, i guess.

Been thinking about going to the 9:00 a.m. Messican mass for the tamales they often serve up afterwards. No food normally after the 11:00 gringo mass, lessways we go out to brunch. GOD and g0d DAMN I loves me some good homemade tamales. Gotta watch out though, they tend to creep up on you. In more ways than one.

Python wrote:

88 wrote: the one hour a week they spend in church.

That's not church.

Sin,
Baptists

RACK,

sin Lyle Lovett -

I went to church last Sunday
So I could sing and pray
But something quite unusual
Happened on that day

Now church it started right on time
Just like it does without a doubt
And everything was all just fine
Except when it came time to let us out

You know the preacher he kept preaching
He told us I have one more thing to say
Children before you think of leaving
You better think about the Judgment Day

Now everyone got nervous
Because everyone was hungry too
And everyone was wondering
What was the next thing he would do

And the preacher he kept preaching
He said now I'll remind you if I may
You all better pay attention
Or I might decide to preach all day

And now everyone was getting so hungry
That the old ones started feeling ill
And the weak ones started passing out
And the young ones they could not sit still

And the preacher's voice rose higher
So I snuck up on the balcony
And I crept into the choir
And I begged them brothers, sisters, help me please

I said when I give you a signal
I said when I raise up my hand
Won't you please join with me together
And praise the Lord I have a plan

And the preacher he kept preaching
Long is the struggle, hard the fight
And I prayed, Father please forgive me
And then I stood up and with all my might
I sang

To the Lord let praises be
It's time for dinner now let's go eat
We've got some beans and some good cornbread
And I listened to what the preacher said
Now it's to the Lord let praised be
It's time for dinner now let's go eat

Yes and I did give a signal
Yes and I raised up my hands
And then joined with me the choir
Yes every woman, child, and man
They sang

To the Lord let praised be
It's time for dinner now let's go eat
We've got some beans and some good cornbread
And I've listened to what the preacher said
Now it's to the Lord let praised be
It's time for dinner now let's go eat

And the preacher he stopped preaching
And a hush the church did fill
And then a great white dove from up above
Landed on the window sill

And the dove flew down beside him
And a fork appeared right in his hand
And with everybody watching
The preacher ate that bird right there and then

And now everyone got really nervous
And the preacher he did start to glow
And as we watched in disbelief
These were the words he spoke

He said now Mama's in the kitchen
And she's been there all day
And I know she's cooking something good
So let's bow our heads and pray
And he sang

To the Lord let praises be
It's time for dinner now let's go eat
We've got some beans and some good cornbread
Now listen to what the preacher said
He said to the Lord let praised be
It's time for dinner now let's go eat

And the moral of this story
Children it is plain but true
God knows if a preacher preaches long enough
Even he'll get hungry too
And he'll sing

To the Lord let praises be
It's time for dinner now let's go eat
We've got some beans and some good cornbread
Now listen to what the preacher said
He said to the Lord let praised be
It's time for dinner now let's go eat

Mikey wrote:Been thinking about going to the 9:00 a.m. Messican mass for the tamales they often serve up afterwards. No food normally after the 11:00 gringo mass, lessways we go out to brunch. GOD and g0d DAMN I loves me some good homemade tamales. Gotta watch out though, they tend to creep up on you. In more ways than one.

No doubt. Had this tamale truck that used to come by this gasket manufacturing plant I worked at one summer in high school. Nice spicy chorizo tamales. It was like 50 cents each and I'd always scarf down 4 of them.

Beware the shart...

Van wrote:

pop wrote:We already know that God created satan and that He allowed satan to deceive man and weaken him, such that he chose to sin.

Why did God do that to His own children? What possible good reason could he have for shitting in his own punchbowl?

Why did God doom so many of His own children right from the very start?

And yes, I still want to know, who or what created God?

Van, I'd like to know where God came from, too.

I have such questions.

As I mentioned to M Club, a mental hurdle to overcome is realizing that God is God and we are not.
He is the Creator and we are merely creations.

I'm comfortable with what God has revealed to us.
It is what we need, as children and creations.

You may tell your young child some things, and he may wonder about "deeper" reasons for things that you say or establish, but you are the master of the domain and if you don't see fit to reveal all things to him, there is likely a good reason for it and you know best.
You will do right for him and you will tell him what he needs to know.

It's one way to look at it.

Two pieces of Scripture to see.


Isaiah 55:8-11
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.



God's thoughts and ways are on a totally different level than ours.
God's Word WILL be accomplished.


1 Corinthians 2:9,10
9 But as it is written,
Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard,
neither have entered into the heart of man,
the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


The things that God has done and prepared are things we, in our flesh, can not even imagine.



Why did God doom his children?

I guess I would point to my two posts (one for 88 and one for M Club - on pg.15) as they said what I see the Bible saying about this topic.

poptart wrote:
You may tell your young child some things, and he may wonder about "deeper" reasons for things that you say or establish, but you are the master of the domain and if you don't see fit to reveal all things to him, there is likely a good reason for it and you know best.
You will do right for him and you will tell him what he needs to know.

I thank God/Goddess/Deity/Tree I am not related to you.

Ignorance is your security blanket.

That would be

poptart's letter to the 88s: 6:15 and poptart's letter to the M Clubs: 5:15





I too have a deep admiration and respect for poptart's faith.

Mikey wrote: Been thinking about going to the 9:00 a.m. Messican mass for the tamales they often serve up afterwards. No food normally after the 11:00 gringo mass, lessways we go out to brunch. GOD and g0d DAMN I loves me some good homemade tamales. Gotta watch out though, they tend to creep up on you. In more ways than one.

I would do the wetback mass for sure for a few reasons. The heavenly tamales, hot dolled up latina milfs and yer outta there by 10:30, earlier if you pass up on the tamales, but, fukk that. And you can be on the golf course by 11. Hang around for the gringo mass and the days shot to hell by the time you drag yerself away from the crappy brunch buffet you go to.

poptart wrote:

Van wrote:

pop wrote:We already know that God created satan and that He allowed satan to deceive man and weaken him, such that he chose to sin.

Why did God do that to His own children? What possible good reason could he have for shitting in his own punchbowl?

Why did God doom so many of His own children right from the very start?

And yes, I still want to know, who or what created God?

Van, I'd like to know where God came from, too.

I have such questions.

As I mentioned to M Club, a mental hurdle to overcome is realizing that God is God and we are not.
He is the Creator and we are merely creations.

That's no hurdle at all to overcome. That's Sincerely, Marcus Allen stuff.

I know I'm not God. That still doesn't even begin to answer my question about why someone would deliberately sabotage their own creation? Pretty much, any reason would point to brash callousness in the very least, and pure sadism in any other light.

I'm comfortable with what God has revealed to us.

I'm not. He hasn't revealed shit to me, and what little it mentions in His brochure describes him as a particularly virulent Josef Mengele.

It is what we need, as children and creations.

Not even close. Pre-ordained failures who were destined to never receive his gift? Entire civilizations destroyed? Evil forces introduced by Him to ruin us?

pop, God sounds like a real asshole.

You may tell your young child some things, and he may wonder about "deeper" reasons for things that you say or establish, but you are the master of the domain and if you don't see fit to reveal all things to him, there is likely a good reason for it and you know best.

Usually it's because you're hiding something unpleasant from them. I don't like the idea of God hiding the really important things from us, especially when the messengers he sends during my lifetime are nothing but charlatans. God is giving me nothing to work with here but a pile of poo.

You will do right for him and you will tell him what he needs to know.

So when is God going to do that for us? See, in the example you give, the parent doesn't hide from his children for all eternity, the way God hides from us.

It's one way to look at it.

And it only works if one completely shuts off his brain and suspends all capacity for reasonable questioning.

The things that God has done and prepared are things we, in our flesh, can not even imagine.

According to his brochure he's done plenty of things that we can imagine, and nearly all of them have been heinous.

Why did God doom his children?

I guess I would point to my two posts (one for 88 and one for M Club - on pg.15) as they said what I see the Bible saying about this topic.

The only answer you attempted to give was your theory about some people being "pre-destined," which doesn't even begin to explain why God introduced Satan, temptation and ruination to us in the first place.

smackaholic wrote:hot dolled up latina milfs

I laughed.

For every one of those there are about thirty hideously painted muffin-topped monstrosities. It's like a clown nightmare horrorshow.

Scott wrote:What is also amazing, if memory serves me correctly, is that pop also admitted to being molested by one of the church clergy.
I'll leave it to him to elaborate - if he feels like it.

lol

WHAT??

I never said that.
It never happened.

Memory definitely served you incorrectly there.

Personnaly - I think child molesters should be executed as soon as the gavel sounds guilty - pop - your thoughts?

I'm not in favor of the death penalty for anyone.

But yeah, it's a very serious crime.

Van wrote:God sounds like a real asshole

Do you want that on your tombstone? ha


I'll reply to the rest of your post later, Van.

KC Scott wrote: You started a thread - it's been quite a while ago, regarding bad things that had happened in chldhood.

Started a thread where?

I recall no such thread.

Speaking of the Catholic Church...... since this mutha is 14 pages long...

My better half is Catholic and I was raised Christian/Pentecostal so those of you who know the difference know upfront where this is going.

I've always bowed in prayer at meals whereas she and her family due the usual Catholic stuff before they eat. No biggie...I've even attended Catholic services/mass. Markedly different in atmosphere from the structure to the service. The cathedral is...I don't know extravagant. The church I attended growing up was a much simpler building. No big deal.

The differences that confuse and confound me most is how I was raised to believe that consuming alcohol is a sin. Smoking is a sin. Using profanity is a sin...not just taking the Lord's name in vain. I noticed a long time ago that most all of her family drinks socially and a few even smoke and chew. Yet, most attend mass and always do the cross thing and say prescribed prayers whatever you call them before meals. I'm cool with throwing back some cold ones with the inlaws and I never questioned them about being devout Catholics and drinking. And I sure as hell never discuss the pedophilia and molestation cover-ups in the church.

The first year I attended her family's annual shindig at her rich uncle's crib on the lake, a priest walks up in his church garb and has some beers with everyone to the point he was a little tipsy when he left. I'm like...huh? Priest drinking beer....huh, cool I guess.

What REALLY blew me away was the wedding reception of one her cousins at the "Jubilee Hall" or some shit IN the church. Very nice reception room decorated to the hilt, famous catering service with great food and an expensive DJ with an awesome light/effects setup for the music....great. But howsa bout the flippin BAR serving any drink you could imagine over in the corner? There we are drinking, dancing, outside smoking stogies and all the while crucifixes and pictures of Jesus himself adorn the walls of this hall. Mind you, this reception was a hell of a party....right there in the church.

Totally contradicts the religion I was raised on. Confusing almost. Not that I was complaining but it sure made me ponder all that had been taught to me all those years in church, sunday school, youth group etc. Who is right?


As an adult I rarely attend church because I'm in agreement with those who believe you can have a faith and beliefs without the structure. Marrying a Catholic gal and the brand of Christianity in that church has opened up a whole new set of questions I have about religions and faith in general.

poptart wrote:

Van wrote:God sounds like a real asshole

Do you want that on your tombstone? ha

Fuck yeah.

Someone slap a on this bitch. It's become gaxer than Jon's late-April Iowa national title thread in BTPCFB.

I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic schools all my life.

I was molested at @9 or 10 years of age. But it was by myself so I guess that doesn't count


H4Ever, I don't think it should cause you to question faith as much as the evolution of "ritual" and the idea behind organized religion and how it can be corrupted by men and women to suit their needs. It's a long a sordid story from the moment of the Crucifixtion and beyond.

The major denominations of Christianity exist due to some objection to the Catholic church at any given period. Even those denominations have splintered due to issues within them.

For me, I believe the Christ story. But I consider myself and Agnostic Theist (I believe, but I don't know). Coupled with some psychedelic mysticism in which I see common denominators in the spiritual principles behind all the major religions (Hindu, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).

I subscribe to the belief that we are a "broken" species of animal with warped instincts. They're not based strictly on survival they get warped into "Moreism".

I think even poptart would agree, even in his book ... Christ said it was about "believing on him" and not necessarily what you called yourself or which rituals you practices to sustain your belief and fuel your journey back --- from whence we came. :D

haha

Yes, Scott, this was the thread you recall.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32364&p=608205&hili ... ed#p608205

I suspect that I had a near-miss.

It was a doctor.

Van, I think I can never adequately answer all the "What about ...?" questions you have.

And again, I was once right there with you.

Intellectually, you may never be satisfied.
And also again, God's Word is living and it is spiritual in nature.
This is what I testify to you about.

If you're an open-minded agnostic, read the books of Genesis 1-3 a couple of times.
And the book of John.


A lot of things approach us in our life.
Things we never asked for.

A lot of things have approached me in my life.
And there was a point when nothing worked.
And I could not block the serious problems that came.

God, knowing this is our situation, immediately promised Christ - the answer.
This IS the method.

We can argue about the method God has used, but I can testify that the method He gave is remarkably adequate.

And prayer is such a normal and perfect thing.
Even for just a few moments.
Meditate on some Word - meditate on Christ.

God unfailingly provides, on His time schedule, the best path.
I have assurance because it is very real.

Nothing works ... has become ... everything works.

Again, take it for what it's worth.
I can do nothing but testify to the reality of it.


Proverbs 3:5,6
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him,
and he shall direct thy paths.

pop wrote:God unfailingly provides, on His time schedule, the best path.

That's a cop-out. By that reasoning, God can never be seen to fail. If he hasn't provided yet, it only means he hasn't gotten around to it. If He let everything go completely to shit, it was simply all part of His plan.

You wife gets shot and killed while picking out kumquats at the market, your dog gets hit by a bus, Kiss has a successful reunion tour, you lose your job, your team has Al Davis conducting another draft, you get AIDs from a blood transfusion and die...no problem. God provided for you. You just never saw any evidence of it. Never fear, though. Somewhere, somehow, his checks will eventually stop bouncing.

poptart wrote: M Club, with all due respect, fundamentally, there is a mental hurdle to overcome.
That being, God is God and you are merely His creation.

the only mental hurdle to overcome, apparently, is that i don't buy into the same propaganda you find so convincing. the bible is basically the one time someone recorded the transcript of their D&D game.

Van wrote:

pop wrote:God unfailingly provides, on His time schedule, the best path.

That's a cop-out. By that reasoning, God can never be seen to fail. If he hasn't provided yet, it only means he hasn't gotten around to it. If He let everything go completely to shit, it was simply all part of His plan.

You wife gets shot and killed while picking out kumquats at the market, your dog gets hit by a bus, Kiss has a successful reunion tour, you lose your job, your team has Al Davis conducting another draft, you get AIDs from a blood transfusion and die...no problem. God provided for you. You just never saw any evidence of it. Never fear, though. Somewhere, somehow, his checks will eventually stop bouncing.

I think I have it figured out.

God is all knowing and all powerful, but, he has a bit of a drinking problem.

On a good day, He breaks off a bryce canyon or yosemite valley. Then, he goes on a bender. A really fukking bad one. It wouldn't be all that bad if he was the cool happy drunk. Hell, that would be a party. Nope, he's that other kinda drunk. The angry aggressive drunk that wants to fight with everybody. So he goes on a smite binge. Wars happen, drought, cancer, detroit, cleveland and other horrible things. Eventually he passes out and sleeps it off and the sun shines again....for a while.

As for dudes like poptart, they're pretty much just BSHs. There is no arguing with them.

mvscal wrote:

smackaholic wrote:hot dolled up latina milfs

I laughed.

For every one of those there are about thirty hideously painted muffin-topped monstrosities. It's like a clown nightmare horrorshow.

yeah, i hear you. you are right of course, but, the 31st one makes up for it.

go to a lutheran or presbyterian service and you got hotties, but, thye all share that protestant sense of modesty or appropriate dress or whatever it is.

such things haven't been invented yet in the latin world. hot latina dresses one way 24/7. it don't matter if she's going to a strip club or mass.

Van wrote:

pop wrote:God unfailingly provides, on His time schedule, the best path.

That's a cop-out. By that reasoning, God can never be seen to fail. If he hasn't provided yet, it only means he hasn't gotten around to it. If He let everything go completely to shit, it was simply all part of His plan.

You wife gets shot and killed while picking out kumquats at the market, your dog gets hit by a bus, Kiss has a successful reunion tour, you lose your job, your team has Al Davis conducting another draft, you get AIDs from a blood transfusion and die...no problem. God provided for you. You just never saw any evidence of it. Never fear, though. Somewhere, somehow, his checks will eventually stop bouncing.

I understand your take, Van, for sure.

But I'd like to point out that throughout the Bible, many (or most) of those who were the most greatly used and blessed by God faced tremendous hardship ... to physical eyes.

A few examples that stand out, among many.

Paul was greatly afflicted, persecuted and he suffered a whole lot.
Throughout, he was utterly thankful.

In Acts 6 and 7, when Stephen was framed and railroaded to the point where he knew that he would be executed, he testified to Christ.
Then as the mob took up stones to stone him to death, he looked up to the heavens and saw Jesus STANDING (standing ovation) at the right hand of God.
Stephen had the face of an angel and as he was at the point of death, he asked the Lord to please not lay the sin of the mob at their own feet.

The 12 apostles all willingly went to the most horrific deaths imaginable.

poptart wrote:Paul was greatly afflicted, persecuted and he suffered a whole lot.
Throughout, he was utterly thankful.

He brought it on himself when he ctrl-Cuda-ed that take from a Chiefs board.

poptart wrote:Then as the mob took up stones to stone him to death, he looked up to the heavens and saw Jesus STANDING (standing ovation) at the right hand of God.
Stephen had the face of an angel and as he was at the point of death, he asked the Lord to please not lay the sin of the mob at their own feet.

I just don't get this.

If I'm standing there, fixing to get beaned repeatedly by a bunch of stone toting asswhipes and I look up and see G and his boy just standing their watching, I'd be like well, feel free to lob a lightning bolt or something anytime now dude. Fukk these motherfukkers up.

But, that's just me. I actually expect a friend to not stand by and watch me get the shit kicked out of me.

That's been addressed already smackoholic.

Isaiah 55:8-11
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Certainly, painful situations would have us turn to God and wonder "Where are you dude, stop this".

The best analogy I can think of here is sex. Moments of discomfort, anticipation, and sometimes pain followed by relief.

Spiritually, certainly the flesh and the mind experience torment throughout an experience such as - being executed - but when it is over and the spirit is reunited with God - there's relief.


God is God. He is not a co-pilot. If he is a co-pilot, get out and let Him drive. :)

Tom In VA wrote:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Holy fuck! Dinsdale is God?!?!?!

The best analogy I can think of here is sex. Moments of discomfort, anticipation, and sometimes pain followed by relief.

Pain? Somebody fucking your ass?

IndyFrisco wrote:

Tom In VA wrote:The best analogy I can think of here is sex. Moments of discomfort, anticipation, and sometimes pain followed by relief.

Pain? Somebody fucking your ass?

Tom In VA wrote:God is God. He is not a co-pilot. If he is a co-pilot, bend over and let Him drive.

IndyFrisco wrote: Pain? Somebody fucking your ass?

You've never had blue balls have you.

The best analogy I can think of here is sex. Moments of discomfort, anticipation, and sometimes pain followed by relief.

Dude, not everybody's Friday night is akin to mvscal's escapades at the Vogel pad.

Goober McTuber wrote:

Cleverly Manipulated Tom In VA's Post wrote:God is God. He is not a co-pilot. If he is a co-pilot, bend over and let Him drive.

Feels that way sometimes doesn't it ?

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:

The best analogy I can think of here is sex. Moments of discomfort, anticipation, and sometimes pain followed by relief.

Dude, not everybody's Friday night is akin to mvscal's escapades at the Vogel pad.

Just trying to provide fodder for another 16 pages :D


Seriously, you too ? Never had blue balls ?

No. That's why G0D invented tube socks.

Blue balls is from a lack of sex. Go lift a car.

IndyFrisco wrote:Blue balls is from a lack of sex. Go lift a car.

When I was dating my wife she let me foreplay her for awhile and then would be all like ... "I'm still not ready".

I had blue balls so bad I could barely walk and launching into a tube sock actually hurt. Eventually I had to say "Enough, I'm glad you're having fun, but I need a little sumthin sumthin too, I can barely walk after I leave here". She accomodated, it was and still is exquisite.

I love my wife. Preggers with twins, she still helps the old man out. :D

rack knocked up OLs. they get visited by the titty ferry and the horny slut ferry all about the same time.

this musta happened when g0d was having a good day.

Tom In VA wrote:

Goober McTuber wrote:

Cleverly Manipulated Tom In VA's Post wrote:God is God. He is not a co-pilot. If he is a co-pilot, bend over and let Him drive.

Feels that way sometimes doesn't it ?

No.