T1B

Van wrote:Think Leinart won't still be able to execute smart decisions along the way to throwing for 300 and three TDs against Texas, Va Tech or anybody else come Rose Bowl time? Of course he will.

Think Young is going to run unmolested and throw at will to endlessly wide open receivers against Va Tech or USC come bowl season? Of course not. What he will most likely do is throw a key pick and/or commit a key fumble when he's faced with the dual pressures of a defense that can stare down his offense and deal with it on equal terms and an opposing offense that can more than match his own offense.

Think you'll show your face in here if SC loses, Johnny come lately?

DrDetroit wrote:

Killian wrote:

DrDetroit wrote: Absurd, considering that without Leinart we know that USC would not be what they are.

Like how USC wouldn't be the same in 2003 after Palmer graduated, and an untested redshirt soph who had never thrown a pass in college had to take over?

Yeah, Leinart is that good...you disagree?

Nope, but Booty or Sanchez may be even better. You have no idea, and you would have been saying the same thing in the fall of 2002 had you been in this forum.

Killian wrote:

DrDetroit wrote:

Killian wrote: Like how USC wouldn't be the same in 2003 after Palmer graduated, and an untested redshirt soph who had never thrown a pass in college had to take over?

Yeah, Leinart is that good...you disagree?

Nope, but Booty or Sanchez may be even better. You have no idea, and you would have been saying the same thing in the fall of 2002 had you been in this forum.

No need to speculate about what I might have said three years ago.

Nonetheless, Young performance in bringing his team back from a heavy first half deficit was truly remarkable. And that's what people are going to remember. That Texas was getting it handed to them in the first half and that Young brought them back while posting over 500 yards offense by himself.

DrD, are you suggesting the presence of other great players around Bush should fault him? VY touches the ball more. That does not prove he's the better player, that just proves Mack Brown has less to work with than does Pete Carrol.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:DrD, are you suggesting the presence of other great players around Bush should fault him? VY touches the ball more. That does not prove he's the better player, that just proves Mack Brown has less to work with than does Pete Carrol.

It's not a matter of touches...I haven't argued that.

DrDetroit wrote:

Van wrote:This year, Reggie Bush is much more than a "viable candidate" and he's come up very big in SC's biggest games this year.

Which games were those?

At Notre Dame, at a highly ranked and undefeated Oregon and at a highly ranked and insanely fired up ASU team that'd just put up 570 yards against the vaunted LSU defense. That's just this year.

I presume you also caught what Bush did in the Orange Bowl, against an undefeated and (in some circles) unbeatable OU team? Or what he did against ND, Va Tech and UCLA?

So, all in all, I can't see Leinart getting the nod this time when the perception is out there that he's not the best player on his own team. (Not that that's ever stopped many an undeserving QB from getting the award though on countless other occasions... :roll: )

Half-full/half-empty argument because there are many out there that believe that Bush is not the best player on his own team.

As defined by more=majority and less=minority Reggie Bush is absolutely the majority pick across the nation as the best player on his or any other team.

I just think it's obvious that Reggie's the more suitable "glamour pick" over Leinart, so barring any flame out by Bush it's not going to go to Leinart this time.

Absurd, considering that without Leinart we know that USC would not be what they are.

Nor would they be where they are without Reggie Bush.

On the flip side, it is very possible that USC would be where they are without Bush.

Then I suppose it's also possible they'd be where they are if somebody other than Leinart had been at the controls. It's not likely, but it's possible, same as with the Bush statement.

Untouched on that pump-fake because he jocked the defender in front of him then simply out ran the rest. Not bad.

Not "bad", but also not even in the same galaxy as some of Reggie's plays this year or Leinart's two brass balls audibles/executions in the waning seconds at Notre Dame.

Not exactly the sort of highlight reel stuff Bush offers up just about every week, and often two to three times every week. All Young managed in the second half against Okie State was to avoid falling off the Heisman map. He didn't really elevate himself, he just prevented a catastrophe and kept himself alive.

Nonsense. You don't put up 500 yards by yourself to avoid falling off the table.

-He didn't put up those yards by himself. He threw for half of 'em and his offensive line made the other half possible. In fact, they made the first half possible as well.

Nobody in football achieves anything by themselves. Stick Vince Young on Okie State and Texas destroys him and Okie State.

-All he managed to do was salvage his season. Had he carried on in the second half the way he did in the first half Vito would be at the bottom of a river right now and VY would be on the phone with his agent trying to find out how cold is it really in Saskatchewan and is he really going to have to learn to say "oot"??

There's also the basic fact that Bush is just plain perceived as being the best player in the country by most people not named Vito...

Most people? You mean some people.

No, I mean most people. "Most" means "the majority", and the majority of this nation's voting scribes and talk show hosts seem to be of a single mind that Reggie Bush is the most talented player on the college landscape. He's projected as the odds on Heisman winner and quite possibly the first player taken in the NFL draft....assuming it's not Matt Leinart.

Vince Young is not in those discussions...by most people.

And many other who believe Young is. And still many more who believe that about several others.

Many, but not most.

Curious as I don't know much about UCLA...but are they really that good? What has their schedule been like?

Incredibly explosive quick strike offense but a sieve of a defense. Fantastic special teams. Good, experienced QB and a damn good tailback.

They keep winning miracle comeback games against (seemingly) vastly inferior opponents. Because Oklahoma has proven to be utter dogshit this season UCLA really has no wins over any really good teams.

They'll get their chance though, soon enough. They'll likely move the ball and score some points against USC but I just don't see how they're going to be able to do anything to slow down USC's offense, especially USC's running game. UCLA will have to to rely on big plays by their special teams and turnovers/dropped balls/penalties by USC as their only chance of winning.

If both teams play their usual games USC will win by something like 44-21.

If USC shoots themselves in the foot enough, hey, anything's possible...but it's not bloody likely.

DrDetroit wrote:No need to speculate about what I might have said three years ago.

Nonetheless, Young performance in bringing his team back from a heavy first half deficit was truly remarkable. And that's what people are going to remember. That Texas was getting it handed to them in the first half and that Young brought them back while posting over 500 yards offense by himself.

I'm not talking about Young or his performance. But if you want to talk about it, I suggest using a game other than one where Texas has outscored the same team 112-0 in the second half over the past 3 years. It would have been a bigger surprise had he not done what he did.

But how do you know USC wouldn't be where they are if Leinart was not there?

Vince had had a great game props. Now to make him #1 in the race after an epic comeback over Okie St, well, Okie St sucks and Vince is good for at least 2 turnovers a game. I'd give him some points and have him climbing but to make him #1.........no....

Bush isn't a guy that needs gaudy numbers to impress voters. He's an impact player, a guy that can change the game any time he gets the ball. In the highlight era of cfb, all we see is Bush making incredible plays. It seems to me, a guy who doesn't see many SC games, that RB scores 3 TD's a game with limited touches. Personally I would have loved to see Bush play in a conference that plays defense, but that's another topic altogether.

IndyFrisco wrote:

Van wrote:Think Leinart won't still be able to execute smart decisions along the way to throwing for 300 and three TDs against Texas, Va Tech or anybody else come Rose Bowl time? Of course he will.

Think Young is going to run unmolested and throw at will to endlessly wide open receivers against Va Tech or USC come bowl season? Of course not. What he will most likely do is throw a key pick and/or commit a key fumble when he's faced with the dual pressures of a defense that can stare down his offense and deal with it on equal terms and an opposing offense that can more than match his own offense.

Think you'll show your face in here if SC loses, Johnny come lately?

Not that Van needs me to defend him, but . . .

Actually, Van's been around for 5 years or so, always been an SC fan, but until lately he's posted mainly in the main forum.

I got into the CFB forum relatively late as well, and in hindsight, with that sort of reception, I'm glad I came in in 2003 with ND in the shitter, otherwise I'd be getting the "fair weather fan" treatment as well.

Killian wrote:

DrDetroit wrote:No need to speculate about what I might have said three years ago.

Nonetheless, Young performance in bringing his team back from a heavy first half deficit was truly remarkable. And that's what people are going to remember. That Texas was getting it handed to them in the first half and that Young brought them back while posting over 500 yards offense by himself.

I'm not talking about Young or his performance. But if you want to talk about it, I suggest using a game other than one where Texas has outscored the same team 112-0 in the second half over the past 3 years. It would have been a bigger surprise had he not done what he did.

But how do you know USC wouldn't be where they are if Leinart was not there?

I just know... :wink:

IndyFrisco wrote:

Van wrote:Think Leinart won't still be able to execute smart decisions along the way to throwing for 300 and three TDs against Texas, Va Tech or anybody else come Rose Bowl time? Of course he will.

Think Young is going to run unmolested and throw at will to endlessly wide open receivers against Va Tech or USC come bowl season? Of course not. What he will most likely do is throw a key pick and/or commit a key fumble when he's faced with the dual pressures of a defense that can stare down his offense and deal with it on equal terms and an opposing offense that can more than match his own offense.

Think you'll show your face in here if SC loses, Johnny come lately?

I've likely been a diehard USC fan longer than you've been alive so I'm no JCL but win or lose of course I'll show myself in here no matter what happens the rest of this season.

Just like with OU last season though I have zero doubt that given a few weeks to prepare for a game of such magnitude USC is going to destroy any Big XII team.

Because of the Frank Beemer vs Mack Brown thing and the quality of competition between Va Tech in the ACC and Texas in the Big XII I'm far more worried about Va Tech than Texas. Then again, I'm far more worried about finishing up the regular season job of running the table than I am about any Rose Bowl opponent.

USC will be a comfortable Vegas favorite if they should be fortunate enough to make it to the Rose Bowl and if they get that far they're going to culminate this three year run with another crushing blowout over another shellshocked team that's never seen the likes of of what USC brings to the table in such circumstances...

It's not just talent, of which they already possess the most by far. It's poise and big game experience and the ability to stay loose and execute when the lights are brightest and everybody's watching.

A game of that magnitude, they're going to dominate. They will not lose.

I just know you've been on these boards as long as anyone else back to SCIII days and this is the first I've seen of you in the CFB forums we've had over the years. So, either you're JCL or I just haven't noticed you.

Either way, as homer as your opinions are, you'll fit right in around here.

DrD, if he were being accurate, wrote:Nonetheless, Texas's performance in bringing themselves back from a heavy first half deficit caused by the inept play of their own QB wasn't the least bit remarkable, considering the Alpo quality of their bedraggled opponent. And that's what people are going to remember: That Texas was getting it handed to them in the first half because of Young's mistakes. Young managed to avoid stepping on his own dick in the second half though and this allowed him to enjoy the dominance of his offensive line against a thoroughly dispirited and defeated opponent who knew the clock had struck midnight when their own offense couldn't put up a single point from the middle of the second quarter all the way to when the final gun went off...

(There ya' go, DrD: Edited, so as not to impugn your integrity.)

Stop assuming bad faith, Van. You're much better debater than that. leave that to the dipshits in here that'll turn your arguments inside out only then to divert from the issue altogether.

Maybe I have low standards. Maybe I haven't see Bush all that much to warrant the characterization I have of him. Nonetheless, what we have here is a disagreement over perception. I'm not at all being dishonest and I don't doubt your good faith in this argument.

I've already stipulated that Bush is freaking awesome. I just happen to think that Young's performance in that second half was simply extraordinary and for me that puts him right at the top with Bush and that Bush is no longer running away from this thing.

That is my opinion...in good faith.

Believe the Heupel wrote:

Van wrote:They keep winning miracle comeback games against (seemingly) vastly inferior opponents. Because Oklahoma has proven to be utter dogshit this season UCLA really has no wins over any really good teams.

Just to point out something:

Oklahoma's three losses are to teams with a combined 24-1 record. Each team is ranked, two in the top 10. OU certainly isn't a great team, but I don't know that I'd go so far as to say "utter dogshit."

Fair enough.

I retract that statement. It was a gross exaggeration. OU's not "dogshit"; they're a decent little team that simply can't get it done this season when faced with a good opponent.

I can somewhat forgive all the points they gave up to UCLA because it's obvious UCLA truly has a superlative offense but OU's offense though, wooo, it sure looks pretty toothless sometimes. Bomar especially looked like a boy among men against Texas.

IndyFrisco wrote:I just know you've been on these boards as long as anyone else back to SCIII days and this is the first I've seen of you in the CFB forums we've had over the years. So, either you're JCL or I just haven't noticed you.

Either way, as homer as your opinions are, you'll fit right in around here.

I lose track of which board is which but I've frequented some of these Jim Rome offshoot CF forums off and on for most of my five years 'round these parts...

I know for a fact I've been posting in these CF forums since at least 2002 and I've had sig bets with TiC (Notre Dame) and Socal (UCLA) probably every year I've been around.

Never lost a sig bet yet either! Sure glad I didn't know TiC back in the 80's and 90's...

(J/K...I would've been proud to've known TiC at any point. I just woulda been eating endless crow for way too long...)

DrDetroit wrote:Stop assuming bad faith, Van. You're much better debater than that. leave that to the dipshits in here that'll turn your arguments inside out only then to divert from the issue altogether.

Maybe I have low standards. Maybe I haven't see Bush all that much to warrant the characterization I have of him. Nonetheless, what we have here is a disagreement over perception. I'm not at all being dishonest and I don't doubt your good faith in this argument.

I've already stipulated that Bush is freaking awesome. I just happen to think that Young's performance in that second half was simply extraordinary and for me that puts him right at the top with Bush and that Bush is no longer running away from this thing.

That is my opinion...in good faith.

Check back on that above post of mine. I shouldn't have implied that you were being disingenuous, so I fixed it...

and for me that puts him right at the top with Bush

Uhh, that wasn't your argument. If it was, then not nearly as many people would've jumped on your shit in this thread.

THIS was your argument...

Reggie Bush ain't leading the Heisman candidate now...

Flip flop much?

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:

and for me that puts him right at the top with Bush

Uhh, that wasn't your argument. If it was, then not nearly as many people would've jumped on your shit in this thread.

THIS was your argument...

Reggie Bush ain't leading the Heisman candidate now...

Flip flop much?

No flip-flop...prior to Saturday, I felt that Bush was the leading candidate. For me that changed with Young's performance on Saturday. Hence, my thread title...

I think I'll abstain from this argument save the fact that Reggie Bush's grandmother could rush for 100+ vs. the UCLA D-line......

Young's performance came against a bad bad OSU team. He deserves props, but let's keep it in perspective, m'kay?

Let me preface by saying....I am NOT a Texas fan....

That said, aren't you supposed to have great games and then exceptional games as a superstar?

Young will NOT make it as a pro with that release, but he has a chance for a heisman. What a surprise.....a Heisman QB that does not make it in the NFL.

Young will NOT make it as a pro with that release, but he has a chance for a heisman. What a surprise.....a Heisman QB that does not make it in the NFL.

Exactly.

T REX wrote:That said, aren't you supposed to have great games and then exceptional games as a superstar?

Young will NOT make it as a pro with that release, but he has a chance for a heisman. What a surprise.....a Heisman QB that does not make it in the NFL.

100% agree with this post.

Too many time it seems as if Young is just lobbing the ball in hopes that one of his semi-outstanding WR's will snag it. That side arm sling isn't going to make it over the outstretched hands of many NFL defensive linemen, and the "lobs" aren't going to go over well vs the speedy defensive backs/linebackers on the field every Sunday.

I could be wrong. Hell, I HOPE I'm wrong as I would love nothing more than to see the UT Jesus make it big when he's drafted in the 2007 draft (Texans please) but I'm just being realistic. That sidearm jetstream has got to be fixed by some NFL coaching or dude will be dud.

Most scouts agree that his release is nothing that a little work with Mechanics can't fix. He doesn't have that luxury in college because of the limited amount of practice time allowed by the NCAA.

And I disagree, there have been a couple of NFL QBs that had horrible passing form. Ever hear of Kenny Stabler or Fran Tarkington. Both had ugly passing form but both were very effective. There have been a few more but those two are the ones who actually lead their team to Superbowls.

Let me go on record as saying again tha I hope Reggie does win the Heisman cause it is more incentive for Vince to come back and 2 it doesn't matter cause Texas is still going to beat the shit out of USC.

Sig bet Van?

Absolutely.

In.

Vito Corleone wrote:Let me go on record as saying again tha I hope Reggie does win the Heisman cause it is more incentive for Vince to come back and 2 it doesn't matter cause Texas is still going to beat the shit out of USC.

Sig bet Van?

Vince was quoted in the Houston Chronicle last week saying he had already made up his mind to come back for his senior season at UT.

I ain't buyin' the premature promise, but...Fingers crossed much?

BTW- If there is a sig bet come January- IN!

Btw, Vito, there isn't enough time in an entire CF career to fix obviously fucked up throwing mechanics??

Summer ball, two a days, college-football-is-basically-a-full-time-job, and during all that time in the film room and on the practice field nobody can find the time to work on the starting QB's throwing mechanics...

Did you seriously just post that??

Young's passing has come a long ways and that is without a real go-to receiver. He is not the glorified runningback he was two years ago. He carries that offense on his back. USC has several guy taking turns as "the man", Jarrett, White, Leinert, and Bush all do their part. Bush is great but he doesn't carry USC, I can't give the Heisman to a guy that isn't a PROVEN every-down "workhorse" back.

I'd give it to Young.

Van wrote:Btw, Vito, there isn't enough time in an entire CF career to fix obviously fucked up throwing mechanics??

Summer ball, two a days, college-football-is-basically-a-full-time-job, and during all that time in the film room and on the practice field nobody can find the time to work on the starting QB's throwing mechanics...

Did you seriously just post that??

I didn't say he didn't work on it, infact he has come a long way in his ability as a passer. His delivery is one aspect of passing, if you knew anything about football you would know this. Vince has worked on his reads and decision making which he has improved greatly since his freshmen year. Fact is the Texas coaches have decided to not screw with his delivery because it has hurt his accuracy. They let Vince be Vince and it has payed off since he is already proving to be the most dominate force in College football today.

Vito Corleone wrote:Most scouts agree that his release is nothing that a little work with Mechanics can't fix. He doesn't have that luxury in college because of the limited amount of practice time allowed by the NCAA.

And I disagree, there have been a couple of NFL QBs that had horrible passing form. Ever hear of Kenny Stabler or Fran Tarkington. Both had ugly passing form but both were very effective. There have been a few more but those two are the ones who actually lead their team to Superbowls.

Let me go on record as saying again tha I hope Reggie does win the Heisman cause it is more incentive for Vince to come back and 2 it doesn't matter cause Texas is still going to beat the shit out of USC.

Sig bet Van?

Dude, give us a break with the homer shit. VY will NOT make it in the NFL. He will not be drafted higher than the 4th as a QB. The NFL game speeds up. Those lobs? Picks in the NFL where the defenses can run like gazelles. All that running? Doesn't work either. ATL will never win the NFC with Vick at QB.....never. Danny W was a much better QB than VY on any day of the week......similiar release, better QB. He stayed around six years as a back-up. Unless, VY learns another position, forgettaboutit.

Vito Corleone wrote:He doesn't have that luxury in college because of the limited amount of practice time allowed by the NCAA.

Bullshit. This type of thing is what good coaches correct in spring practices, refine in fall practices, and touch up on during a bye week. Case in point, Brady Quinn. His mechanics were awful last year, slinging the ball instead of throwing it, causing many passes to sail. It was corrected in the spring. I don't know Texas's staff, but if they have a QB coach worth a shit, they can correct this.

I can't give the Heisman to a guy that isn't a PROVEN every-down "workhorse" back.

:?

Sincerely,
Charles Woodsen

Danimal wrote:Young's passing has come a long ways and that is without a real go-to receiver. He is not the glorified runningback he was two years ago. He carries that offense on his back. USC has several guy taking turns as "the man", Jarrett, White, Leinert, and Bush all do their part. Bush is great but he doesn't carry USC, I can't give the Heisman to a guy that isn't a PROVEN every-down "workhorse" back.

I'd give it to Young.

I just don't get this line of thinking. So Young is more deserving because the players around him are inferior to SC's? If you're Pete Carrol, and you have many great players on offense...why ask one guy to do it all? Why fatigue that one player and risk injury to him when you don't have to?

With that logic, why not just give the Heisman to Brett Basanez? He might be the best QB in college football, if you consider what he's doing with what he's got.

Okay, what about me? I didn't play defense and I was nobody's idea of a PROVEN every down "workhorse" back and I won a Heisman.

Gravy Training It Like A Bastard,
Desmond Howard

didnt Young trhow a few picks early in the Okie st game to get the team behind? maybe he staged those so he could get the "comeback" props my tools like DD on boards like this one

Vito Corleone wrote:Most scouts agree that his release is nothing that a little work with Mechanics can't fix. He doesn't have that luxury in college because of the limited amount of practice time allowed by the NCAA.

And I disagree, there have been a couple of NFL QBs that had horrible passing form. Ever hear of Kenny Stabler or Fran Tarkington. Both had ugly passing form but both were very effective. There have been a few more but those two are the ones who actually lead their team to Superbowls.

Let me go on record as saying again tha I hope Reggie does win the Heisman cause it is more incentive for Vince to come back and 2 it doesn't matter cause Texas is still going to beat the shit out of USC.

Sig bet Van?

I am in on the sig bet. Hell I have a serious bet with my dad who is about to disown me because I won't be rooting for USC. Hey, Texas is 1 and USC is 2.

Also,

QB's with fucked up throwing motions will never amount to shit.

Sin,

Bernie Kosar

Can't believe Texas fan is talking sig bet already. If Va Tech wins out, you won't even be playing SC.

That's because Va Tech hasn't won the Miami and ACC title games yet.