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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:44 am
by Mister Bushice
BSmack wrote:Mister Bushice wrote:BSmack wrote:You're missing the point. What should the TEACHERS be pissed about? Obviously you, Mike and a few others have your own issues with the unions. But what should a teacher who is making more bank than any other teacher be pissed about when their union effectively eliminates ballot measures that would have threatened said position?
Actually the ballot measures in question would have only extended tenure voting from 2 to 5 years (no big deal - that would only help to weed out a few more bad ones), and the other one would have stopped public employee unions from using union dues for political purposes without the written consent of union members.
So essentially the union spent all the dues money of the members on a political cause without asking them in order to stop a measure that would have prevented them from spending the union members dues on political causes without asking them.
No, self interest there eh?
Still dodging the point eh?
Cali teachers are the best compensated in the country. Obviously that money being spent "without their writen consent" is being spent in a way that allows these teachers to be compensated better than their peers elsewhere.
Isn't that the whole point behind paying union dues?
But at the expense of what? budget cuts that eventually screw the kids out of a better education because the unions run the state?
It's not like the highest compensated teachers in America are the bsst. Look at where Cali is rated 46th.
So what that says is the highest paid teachers can't deliver the goods in the classroom, but at least the union is taking care of them at the expense of the kids. Despite what they say the unions are maintaining the status quo which is a state in the red every year and a budget that is never delivered on time because no one wants to bite the bullet.
Nice to see you New Yorkers and canucks are so in the loop. :)
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:51 am
by Ang
Good point about the schools...deliver the goods.
That seems to be the real point to it all. If GM was delivering the goods that folks want to buy, then they wouldn't be closing plants and laying off workers.
Much of the discussion about the unions and benefits and all seems a bit hypocritical to me. We say we want to support the worker, but how many folks bitching about their job loss are sitting there with sneakers on their feet or clothes in their closet that are built by child labor in some other country?
We love to bitch about the oil companies and continued to buy large vehicles while Saudi oil was cheap, and made not a bit of an effort to support domestic energy policies...whether it be for oil or for alternatives. And now that oil is expensive we hate all of our domestic oil companies. Go figure.
We are a nation of hypocrites. We want cheap products and then bitch because people lose jobs when they can't compete with cheap labor abroad. We love our local hardware stores and family grocers, and then run to Walmart for bad service and lower prices...and then we go to the zoning commission to ban more Walmart construction because they might build one in our neighborhood, in one of those spots where the charming local grocers and hardware stores used to be.
I agree with OC Mike on many aspects of this argument. Workers whether they are professional or blue collar all have to continually improve themselves, or they get left behind.
Is there a reason to want it any other way?
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:57 am
by Diogenes
Ang wrote:Much of the discussion about the unions and benefits and all seems a bit hypocritical to me. We say we want to support the worker, but how many folks bitching about their job loss are sitting there with sneakers on their feet or clothes in their closet that are built by child labor in some other country?
We love to bitch about the oil companies and continued to buy large vehicles while Saudi oil was cheap, and made not a bit of an effort to support domestic energy policies...whether it be for oil or for alternatives. And now that oil is expensive we hate all of our domestic oil companies. Go figure.
We are a nation of hypocrites. We want cheap products and then bitch because people lose jobs when they can't compete with cheap labor abroad. We love our local hardware stores and family grocers, and then run to Walmart for bad service and lower prices...and then we go to the zoning commission to ban more Walmart construction because they might build one in our neighborhood, in one of those spots where the charming local grocers and hardware stores used to be.
I agree with OC Mike on many aspects of this argument. Workers whether they are professional or blue collar all have to continually improve themselves, or they get left behind.
Is there a reason to want it any other way?
By 'we', you mean Democrats.
And the reason is union money and influence come election time.
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:48 pm
by BSmack
Martyred wrote:BSmack wrote:Martyred wrote:Hey BSmack...
...you weren't kidding about
"queing up the Lee Greenwood CD's".
Not at all. You've never been to an American Kareoke bar have you?
Actually, I was refering to ExtraordinaryRendition-ice.
I hear he does a hella good cover of "Its Raining Men".
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:58 pm
by Shlomart Ben Yisrael
BSmack wrote:Martyred wrote:BSmack wrote:
Not at all. You've never been to an American Kareoke bar have you?
Actually, I was refering to ExtraordinaryRendition-ice.
I hear he does a hella good cover of "Its Raining Men".
Open mike night at "Lieberman's Bar & Grill" is always a hoot.
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:30 pm
by Mike the Lab Rat
My .02 (now that I've got some time to relax, after grading 102 labs and 68 quizzes...):
For the folks at Delphi and the auto assembly factories who are in their 50's and up and who came up through the "old system," I have some serious sympathy.
For the folks in their 20's, 30's and 40's who basically sat on their fucking laurels skillswise, did nothing to develop professionally and ignored the frigging obvious trends in the economy and business, I have not one bit of sympathy. There was going to have to be a point at which union membership was no longer going to be some impenetrable shield against the realities of the world economy.
Shit, I don't make $30/hour and I'm a tenured teacher with TWO Master's degrees. On the "pittance" I make, my wife and I and our two kids somehow manage to live a nice middle-class life (including a 2.5 story Victorian house with 2 car garage) in a college town.
And although I'm in a union considered to be one of the strongest in the nation, even I know enough that I have to keep upgrading my skills (more course certifications, more training in content delivery to different types of students, upgrading my biotechnology knowledge...) and read up on what skills I'm GOING to need down the road if I expect to keep my job, let alone advance in it. It shouldn't be my employer's responsibility to do these things - it's mine. So far, I've been the one paying for most of this, and I consider it what it is: an investment in my family's future.
Anyone who sits on their ass skillswise, punches in and punches out, and expects their union to protect their job regardless of new economic realities deserves to be roadkill.